Tones And Tone Rules

[djayz]

After a few months of not having studied any Thai I'm finally dedicating a min. of 1 hour every evening (Mon.-Fri.) to sit down and study the language again.

I recognize all the consonants and know if they're high, middle or low class consonants.

I also know the tone rules pretty much off by heart BUT here comes the problem.

I haven't found any info regarding the tone rules for words that start with the "silent ห" so can't figure out the tone for these words.

Take for example:

ที่นี่จำหน่ายบุหรี่

ที่ นี่ จำ and บุ I can figure out the tones for these words, no problem: falling, falling mid and low respectively.

The problem is working out หน่าย and หรี่

Can anybody help me crack the tone rules in these cases?

Edited November 15, 2011 by djayz

[lumdam]

The silent ห makes the following low class consonant act as if it was high class. So หน่าย and หรี่ have a low tone.

There are also a few words with a silent อ, such as อยาก. They work similarly, the ย is effectively a mid class consonant and the tone is low.

See "Tone-shifting 'Leading Consonant' Clusters" here: http://thai-language.com/id/830222.

Edited November 15, 2011 by lumdam

[djayz]

The silent ห makes the following low class consonant act as if it was high class. So หน่าย and หรี่ have a low tone.

There are also a few words with a silent อ, such as อยาก. They work similarly, the ย is effectively a mid class consonant and the tone is low.

See "Tone-shifting 'Leading Consonant' Clusters" here: http://thai-language.com/id/830222.

I had never seen or heard of "tone-shifting" before. Thanks for the link. It helps me a lot.

[ludditeman]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

[djayz]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

That's what I thought also until a few weeks ago. Now I know that I HAVE to master the tone rules in order to be able to figure out the right tone. Otherwise it just sounds like gibberish when I speak Thai.

[Peppy]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

That's what I thought also until a few weeks ago. Now I know that I HAVE to master the tone rules in order to be able to figure out the right tone. Otherwise it just sounds like gibberish when I speak Thai.

Spot on Djayz. For anyone who says tones aren't important, think of the Thai tones as being like English consonants. Is it important to get the consonant sounds right when speaking English? Of course it is. Will somebody understand that you want, say, a bottle of water if you ask for "ga foshle love daughter"? Even when the context is clear, probably not. Without context, not a chance.

As Djayz says, Thai without tones is gibberish.

[ludditeman]

As Djayz says, Thai without tones is gibberish.

IMHO not true.

Speak slowly or 'word at a time' and tones become important.

But full sentences are clearly understood by Thais that want to understand.

Next you will be telling me tone rules are taught to children when they learn to speak.

Imagine a five year old Thai child having to learn tone rules!

Anyway, I attend class with lots of foreigners who obsess about tone rules but have no vocabulary.

They can pronounce the correct tone, but have no idea of the meanings of the words they read and write.

My previous experience from Thai courses is that those who worry about tone rules fail to ever learn to speak Thai in any meaningful way.

Edited November 16, 2011 by ludditeman

[HeavyDrinker]

Forget tones<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Increase vocabulary

Whilst you may be taken in context, the tone makes the word if you will. With the incorrect tone, you will not make any sense.

Please be careful when giving out iffy advice here. What works for one person, won't always work for all.

[lumdam]

But full sentences are clearly understood by Thais that want to understand.

Even if that's true, some learners want to aim higher; and sometimes you'll be speaking and hearing single words.

Anyway, I attend class with lots of foreigners who obsess about tone rules but have no vocabulary.

I agree it can't be good to obsess about tone rules, but that doesn't mean you should completely ignore them.

The tone rules can be learned in a day. Does one extra day for vocabulary practice make a huge difference for you?

With languages in general, learning correct pronunciation from the start is a very good investment. It'll be orders of magnitude harder to correct later when you've ingrained incorrect habits and have to go over all those hundreds of words you've learned wrong and relearn them.

[ludditeman]

Forget tones<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Increase vocabulary

Whilst you may be taken in context, the tone makes the word if you will. With the incorrect tone, you will not make any sense.

Please be careful when giving out iffy advice here. What works for one person, won't always work for all.

Tones are trivial and I would suggest that nobody posting that they are important, can speak Thai to any competent level.

Context is almost everything

Go into a restaurant and order 'cow suey' are you ordering steamed rice or suggesting the waiter is cursed? Both tones completely wrong, doesn't matter.

Walk along a sidewalk and exclaim 'key maa', have you talking dog pooh, or did you want to ride a horse? Both tones completely wrong, doesn't matter.

[richsilver]

It is my experience that some Thais have no trouble understanding Farangs who butcher the tones while others are clueless about what the Farang is trying to say. Of course context helps a lot.

It is not unlike in the Farang world where some people have no trouble when English is spoken with a heavy Germanic accent or a French one, while others cannot understand at all.

I struggled with the tones for a number of years until I met a Thai teacher who insisted I speak the right tone every time. He would slap me on the wrist and correct my tone. It took perhaps a year for me to break the bad habits. I found that at first I could easily get the first tone right in a sequence, but later ones were a problem. By concentrating, this gradually got better. I'm certainly not 100%, but I think I can now speak Thai with most tones correct.

I don't know how the Thais feel, but when I hear a Farang speaking the "correct" words with incorrect tones, it really sounds grating to my ear. Maybe like when someone with a very heavy Spanish accent speaks English.

[djayz]

Thanks to every one who commented on the topic of "The importance of learning Thai tones". What works for one person might not work for the other. I understand that.

As for me, I'll continue to build up my vocab and work on my understanding of the tone rules.

[kriswillems]

I can imagine that some people don't want to study the tone rules, because they are rather theoretical. An alternative for remembering the tone rules is just to remember/copy the tone of each word you hear. I know several farang that are pretty good in pronouncing the words with the correct tone and they are not even aware of it.

I do think that when an adult studies Thai he needs to understand that there are 5 tones and he should be able to recognize and pronounce these 5 tones. From experience I can say that people don't understand you when you use the wrong tone and it will make it very difficult to have a smooth conversation.

In my opinion just studying the tone rules is much easier than remembering the tones.

[ludditeman]

I do think that when an adult studies Thai he needs to understand that there are 5 tones and he should be able to recognize and pronounce these 5 tones. From experience I can say that people don't understand you when you use the wrong tone and it will make it very difficult to have a smooth conversation.

80% of Thais will refuse to understand you, however good your pronunciation is.

Those who have got over the 'foreigners can't speak Thai' stage will understand you, even if wrong.

Better off learning to read and write Thai, then let the ^%$#kers try and pretend they don't understand.

Thai is a very frustrating language to try and learn to speak because.

1) None of the teachers you encounter are likely to know how to teach anything

2) Most Thais don't want you to learn Thai (especially your gf/wife who wants you dependent on her)

3) Many Thais pretend they can't understand you even if you get it right

4) They insist on speaking to you full speed and full Thai vocabulary

Edited November 17, 2011 by ludditeman

[lumdam]

80% of Thais will refuse to understand you, however good your pronunciation is.

Those who have got over the 'foreigners can't speak Thai' stage will understand you, even if wrong.

Better off learning to read and write Thai, then let the ^%$#kers try and pretend they don't understand.

Thai is a very frustrating language to try and learn to speak because.

1) None of the teachers you encounter are likely to know how to teach anything

2) Most Thais don't want you to learn Thai (especially your gf/wife who wants you dependent on her)

3) Many Thais pretend they can't understand you even if you get it right

4) They insist on speaking to you full speed and full Thai vocabulary

There's got to be two different places called Thailand, the one your experiences are from and the one I've visited.

[Richard W]

I think the reason the OP couldn't find any info regarding the tone rules for words that start with the "silent ห" is that they are covered by the rule that the tone class of a cluster is determined by the initial consonant of the cluster. (Yes, I know that rule should be qualified by 'if the second element is a resonant' - but words like เฉพาะ are pretty rare.)

[Peppy]

Next you will be telling me tone rules are taught to children when they learn to speak.

Imagine a five year old Thai child having to learn tone rules!

Children don't need to be taught the rules because it comes naturally to them, just like English speakers know to raise their voice at the end of a yes/no question, and drop it at the end of a wh-question. Adults don't usually pick up on this kind of stuff naturally, and so it needs to be consciously practiced until it becomes second nature.

Kids do learn the tone rules when they learn to read, however--every primary level Thai language studies textbook is chock-full of drills practicing the various combinations of consonants from different classes, short and long vowels and tone marks, especially for the early grades.

Tones are trivial and I would suggest that nobody posting that they are important, can speak Thai to any competent level.

Sorry, but I think you've got that backwards.

80% of Thais will refuse to understand you, however good your pronunciation is.

Those who have got over the 'foreigners can't speak Thai' stage will understand you, even if wrong.

Better off learning to read and write Thai, then let the ^%$#kers try and pretend they don't understand.

Imagine a foreigner in an English speaking country who says "Fair car do flowing?" for "Where are you going?", "Bat pizz cha rice mouse" for "That is a nice house", "Blue car cha berry dutiful loomun" for "You are a very beautiful woman" etc. etc.

And then he bemoans the devious, racist ^%$#kers who pretend they can't understand him...

Bottom line: Speak Thai with the correct tones (in addition to correct grammar and vocabulary) and everybody will understand you, whether they want to or not.

[djayz]

I do think that when an adult studies Thai he needs to understand that there are 5 tones and he should be able to recognize and pronounce these 5 tones. From experience I can say that people don't understand you when you use the wrong tone and it will make it very difficult to have a smooth conversation.

80% of Thais will refuse to understand you, however good your pronunciation is.

Those who have got over the 'foreigners can't speak Thai' stage will understand you, even if wrong.

Better off learning to read and write Thai, then let the ^%$#kers try and pretend they don't understand.

Thai is a very frustrating language to try and learn to speak because.

1) None of the teachers you encounter are likely to know how to teach anything

2) Most Thais don't want you to learn Thai (especially your gf/wife who wants you dependent on her)

3) Many Thais pretend they can't understand you even if you get it right

4) They insist on speaking to you full speed and full Thai vocabulary

80% of the Thais I've met and tried to speak Thai to are absolutely thrilled and sometimes even impressed that a "farang" can communicate (limited albeit) in their language.

When it gets to the point that you start referring to people as ^%$#kers then it's a clear sign you're all "Thai-ed out" and should consider looking for a different country to live in / visit. Perhaps one without ^%$#kers. They're really not all that bad.

Re point 1) I have been fortunate enough to have had a few good Thai teachers and am quiet happy to give you the name and address of the school in Bangkok if you want. Just send me a PM and I'll post you the school details. Good Thai teachers.

Re point 2) my gf is very impressed that a foreigner can and wants to read, write and understand Thai - even though she does admit she has to be careful when she and her friend are gossiping.

Re point 3) Again, I haven't experienced this in the past - unless my pronunciation was so abysmal that they really couldn't understand it.

Re point 4) Usually a simple "พูดช้า ๆ หน่อยครับ" does the trick for me. Try it some time, it works wonders.

[ludditeman]

When it gets to the point that you start referring to people as ^%$#kers then it's a clear sign you're all "Thai-ed out" and should consider looking for a different country to live in / visit. Perhaps one without ^%$#kers. They're really not all that bad.

But if I did that I would have to dump the wife and baby, so most TV posters would consider that even worse behaviour on my part.

[djayz]

When it gets to the point that you start referring to people as ^%$#kers then it's a clear sign you're all "Thai-ed out" and should consider looking for a different country to live in / visit. Perhaps one without ^%$#kers. They're really not all that bad.

But if I did that I would have to dump the wife and baby, so most TV posters would consider that even worse behaviour on my part.

I understand. Good luck with the Thai, I know how difficult (and sometimes frustrating) it can be.

[ChristianPFC]

When used to change the following consonant's tone characteristics, ห and อ are called หนำ and อนำ. There are only four words that use อนำ.

[HerbalEd]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

How can you correctly learn more vocabulary if you don't learn the tone? A Thai word pronounced without correct tone is either a non-existent word or a different word.

[ludditeman]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

How can you correctly learn more vocabulary if you don't learn the tone? A Thai word pronounced without correct tone is either a non-existent word or a different word.

Very easily if you have an ounce of common sense, and understand the concept of 'context'.

I can easily understand Russians, Scots, Irish, Liverpudlians, Spanish mangling English.

So why can't Thais?

I've even been in a petrol station by a pump with 2 choices, gair-sa-hol gow-nung (91), gair-sa-hol gow-ha (95) and the attendant can't recognise gow-nung as my choice.

Try repeating gow-nung ... gow-nung .. gow-nung then gow-ha .. gow-ha .. gow-ha and tell yourself how similar they are (NOT)

Then the coffee shop try la-tay .. la-tay .. la-tay then Mawk-kaa .. mawk-kaa .. Mawk-ka but they have problems telling one from other.

There are only about 6 choices on the coffee menu, how stupid can a person be?

PS

My Thai vocab is quite good, I like to listen but not to speak.

If I need to communicate, I can write it down for them when they play dumb, they seem to understand that well enough, even if my spelling is a bit dodgy.

I can understand Thai conversations without listening to tones, but it appears they are unable to do that.

PPS

I can understand when a person in English says whether or weather, to or too, lose or loose, which or witch without any tones to tell me they are different words, how do I do that?

Edited November 20, 2011 by ludditeman

[HerbalEd]

THERE'S A MUCH EASIER WAY.

My advice is forget about tone "rules" and learn the correct pronunciation of each individual word. However, I find it near impossible and way to s-l-o-w to do that by looking at the "written" word in a book or dictionary and applying the tone "rules." I've bough and discarded many learn-to-speak-Thai books and Thai-English-Thai dictionaries and became frustrated trying to figure out the tone/sound of the word by applying the tone rules. However, I finally found a superb alternative that works very, very well for me. I highly recommend the app for the iPhone and iPad called "TalkingThai" which is described and available here .... http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id411632067?mt=8

This app has over 100K words written in Thai and English script ... but the great thing is that each word is clearly pronounced by the touch of a finger to the word. I often keep touching the same word over and over so I can hear the "sound" of the word again and again until it sticks ... instead of hoping I'm pronouncing it correctly (which before I often was not). This app also teaches you how to write in Thai script. Also, you can always have this 100K word Thai-English-Thai dictionary in your pocket for instant use .... or hit the word and a Thai can hear the word you're trying to convey. The app costs about US$30 and is the best money I ever spent towards learning to speak Thai. Actually it's great fun for me and my Thai girlfriend to use while we entertain ourselves at the same time as we both learn to speak Thai and English.

[HerbalEd]

Forget tones

Increase vocabulary

How can you correctly learn more vocabulary if you don't learn the tone? A Thai word pronounced without correct tone is either a non-existent word or a different word.

Very easily if you have an ounce of common sense, and understand the concept of 'context'.

I can easily understand Russians, Scots, Irish, Liverpudlians, Spanish mangling English.

So why can't Thais?

I've even been in a petrol station by a pump with 2 choices, gair-sa-hol gow-nung (91), gair-sa-hol gow-ha (95) and the attendant can't recognise gow-nung as my choice.

Try repeating gow-nung ... gow-nung .. gow-nung then gow-ha .. gow-ha .. gow-ha and tell yourself how similar they are (NOT)

Then the coffee shop try la-tay .. la-tay .. la-tay then Mawk-kaa .. mawk-kaa .. Mawk-ka but they have problems telling one from other.

There are only about 6 choices on the coffee menu, how stupid can a person be?

PS

My Thai vocab is quite good, I like to listen but not to speak.

If I need to communicate, I can write it down for them when they play dumb, they seem to understand that well enough, even if my spelling is a bit dodgy.

I can understand Thai conversations without listening to tones, but it appears they are unable to do that.

PPS

I can understand when a person in English says whether or weather, to or too, lose or loose, which or witch without any tones to tell me they are different words, how do I do that?

One thing that's easily understandable here is your contempt for Thai people .... and your misunderstanding of a culture that grows up with a "tonal" language.

[ludditeman]

One thing that's easily understandable here is your contempt for Thai people .... and your misunderstanding of a culture that grows up with a "tonal" language.

Unfortunately, once you understand what Thai people around you (a foreigner) are saying, contempt becomes inevitable.

Edited November 20, 2011 by ludditeman

[Hardie]

Thai without tones is NOT gibberish. It's called Khmer and is very understandable (I'm only half-joking). Tones are an important part of pronunciation which is an important part of any language. Ignore them at your peril, still you can speak a very passable Thai without the correct ones all the time, to which any Lao can attest.