Essay On Thai Male Relationships, And Age..

[ChrisP]

I thought I would post this interesting, and maybe provocative, Topic..

It is taken from an "essay" on age, and one man's various male relationships in Thailand. I know the writer personally, and can vouch for it - but it is edited a little (for appropriate content) and posted anonymously here.

================================

Age and love, (and sex..)

"While I was certainly taught to respect my elders I was not taught to make love to them. This is the difference I am experiencing in Thailand. I am not suggesting that Thais are taught to ‘make love to’ elderly people but somewhere in their upbringing is the understanding that there is nothing wrong with it. The point is why do we put ourselves down over the ‘love’ or respect of a younger person? We are imposing our own values on an ancient culture. We must accept that we of the West do not have all the answers and must ‘go with the flow’. To do otherwise will not win hearts and minds.

When I took a 20-year-old lover of the time overseas the Thai immigration officer called him over. When he came back I obviously asked what it was about. He answered, “He asked me with whom was I travelling. (His use of English was exemplary!) I pointed to you. He asked if you were my boyfriend. I answered ‘yes’. He said that’s good because if you had not said that I would not have allowed you to go.”

We arrived in Singapore. I made him to go ahead of me. After a moments’ discussion the immigration officer called me over. He asked if I was his teacher. Being honest I answered, ‘Yes’. ‘Have a good stay’, were his words as he stamped the passports.

We only see what we want to see.

I have three kinds of friends: those who love me, those who pay no attention to me, and those who detest me.

Sébastien-Roch Nicolas de Chamfort (1741–94)

In my home country I have no friends younger than my generation so let’s say 50. In Thailand I have many friends, true friends, under 30. This age group includes no one of European descent.

Whatever anyone might say who has not experienced it a younger Thai is often turned on by sex with an older man. There is a sexual attraction to their lover. Why? I don’t have the answer but I do offer this sort of negative response to those who scoff at the mutual turn-on - I don’t see 1,000baht as an aphrodisiac. There really is something more there. I am told a woman can fake an orgasm. This is not easy in a man. I cannot imagine that many of the young Thai men I have been with just lie back and think of Thailand. It is not their duty.

A country without bordels is like a house without bathrooms.

Marlene Dietrich (1904–92)

Almost from the moment we set foot on Thai soil our Western mind set changes. Money for sex is something we begin to accept. I do not see the guys I pay money for sex as ‘prostitutes’ in the down-putting way we use the word in the West. Perhaps it is like the distinction the United Nation puts on refugees. There are political refugees (the true ones) and economic refugees (those we send back). Thais in this category are often economic prostitutes.

As I have intimated some of the guys of my stable would be classified in the West as prostitutes. I ask you how many of you regularly go with prostitutes in your home countries? And further how many of you would consider them to be amongst your friends? And even further how many of them would you ask to become a more permanent part of your life?

To resist the frigidity of old age one must combine the body, the mind and the heart - and to keep them in parallel vigor one must exercise, study and love. Karl von Bonstetten

So, there is ‘my stable’ – these are the group of lads with whom I have a ‘stable’ sexual relationship. (I have been told that to refer to them as a ‘stable’ is ‘farang condescending’. No it is a pun. They are all stallions but very ‘stable’ ones rather than ‘stabled’ ones.) They each know of each other. I can’t choose between them so they share my affections and I share theirs and it works. A couple help redistribute my wealth, another I pay for his schooling and nothing else and yet another will take me out for a meal tonight.

As well as my ‘stable’ of Thai males with whom I have a sexual relationship, there are the young Thai friends with whom I have a companionable ‘social’ relationship rather than a sexual one. Then again we don’t just quilt and cross-stitch but we do gossip! These guys are in paid employment and our relationship is one of mutual interests and social pleasures rather than carnal. Of course a lot of it is carnal as we stare at those parading before us with lust. But the carnality is not towards each other unfortunately as they are gorgeous!

The ‘stable’ will not join my ‘social’ group for some years if ever. They are too young. I don’t mean just in age but their interests are too young. I will probably remain friends with both groups but on a different level. I will watch them grow older, more responsible, taking a certain pride in their achievements. I will make jokes about their growing plumpness or wrinkles, or grey hair much as they do to me now! Look at the Thai politicians – Thais do age and not always attractively!

I delight in men over seventy. They always offer one the devotion of a lifetime.

Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

Now is this ‘love’? Of course not. Is it respect? I hope so. Is it a security blanket? Maybe. (The Thai word for loan seems to include the silent ‘non repayable’ as though I was like a Thai financial institution). Is this using me? To a very small degree but I get as much pleasure from it as they.

I make sure the respect is mutual. While I expect respect from the younger lovers and friends I also respect them. I would not think to tell them what to do as if I was a parent. I would not expect to be with them 100% of the time, as I would not expect them to be with me. A mutual trust is something we have to live with. It is not a trust of monogamy, as we know we are not. It is a trust that we do not in any way ‘harm’ each other. It is the trust of mutual respect.

Trust men, and they will be true to you; treat them greatly, and they will show themselves great.

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–82)

At least four of my young friends have told me that through their relationship with me their lives have changed in a positive way. I saw nothing I did that was so spectacularly positive. I may have been a catalyst. Maybe it was just a small amount of respect and a little advice but just enough to encourage thought. I cannot and will never insist on change. Everyone deserves the chance to make his own choices and mistakes. I wish I had been granted that more often.

I choose my friends for their good looks, my acquaintances for their good characters, and my enemies for their intellects. A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies.

Oscar Wilde (1854–1900)

My ‘stable’ are at the age of emotional immaturity. Each of them has asked me to have him as a permanent partner; each has been refused. (I suspect this is where the ‘security blanket’ aspect of the relationship comes in.) Their passion is not easily spent and we enjoy it together. But I will be honest - we do not necessarily enjoy one another’s company. We are often bored with one another on a social level and I think this would be an ongoing problem.

Let me put it into perspective. I use one group for sexual stimulus. In the Viagra age you still need something to stimulate you in a physical way or else it doesn’t always work. I hate the chase. I enjoy the growing knowledge and intimacy that a lasting relationship brings and I like the variety that having a few lovers gives. (I have often found that a single lover does nothing to increase my circle of friends; in fact it often limits them to HIM. But again, like everything in this essay, this is my own personal observation.)

Nothing makes one old so quickly as the ever-present thought that one is growing older …

G. C. Lichtenberg (1742–99)

To help me understand the age in which we live I look to my social friends. They keep me up with the latest in fashion, celebrity news, music etc. While I don’t necessarily like it and laugh at much of it at least I do not ignore it. This is important in keeping young. While the body may age there is no excuse to encourage your mind or interests to do so. We can all know what we like but we must also be able to accept the new and different.

The third group of friends in my life in Thailand is my aging Western friends; they are the most important people in my life. They are not of sexual interest, they are often conservative old codgers but they are MY generation of conservative old codgers. We invented the original round-shaped wheel. We have experienced the same years together, we have followed the same trends. We may have gone down different paths but we know that at least there were other paths which we may have followed. There is a lot of unspoken communication between us. We can talk in a shorthand that requires no translation. When we say ‘The Beatles’ we do not think of entomology or a snack. We think of those four young men so important to our youth and in the evolution of modern music.

The young also communicate in their own shorthand and they need to translate as much for us as we need to translate for them. This is why often a mixed-age meal or meeting is fraught with stress. We really don’t understand the subtleties each of us are faced with and we, the older, usually feel more frustrated as we are less tolerant of ‘ignorance’.

Boys are capital fellows in their own way, among their mates; but they are unwholesome companions for grown people.

Charles Lamb (1775–1834)

With my own generation I might argue and reminisce and we understand without having to explain. Just let me write some words and I am sure they will evoke memories. Kennedy, Cold War, Berlin Wall, Evita Peron (Madonna!), Beatles versus Stones, My Fair Lady, Charlie’s Angels (no, not the latest film remake), Marilyn, Jimmy Dean – get the picture? If you don’t let me put it this way – references like this are now found only on the History Channel! Say these words to a 20+ year old (particularly Thai in this context) and you will get a puzzled look. The young can play the same word game with us.

I do have a word of warning, as I’m that sort of conservative old bastard. Remember your age! Stupid isn’t it to have to remind yourself but it is important. The emotions and dress sense of adolescence should be put behind us.

Youth, large, lusty, loving—Youth, full of grace, force, fascination.

Do you know that Old Age may come after you with equal grace, force, fascination?

Walt Whitman (1819–92)

Use the young to stimulate, to invigorate, to keep you thinking young and remember age should not wither us, nor custom stale our infinity variety, to misquote the Bard.

We have all fallen in love and that emotion affects us in different ways. It is also an emotion that develops from teenage fantasies, to crushes, to jealous insanity, to an acceptance of inevitability. All of it is the evolution of lust and love.

So back to the theme of this article – age.

If I can rework slightly the lyrics of the song, perhaps aptly named (albeit when ‘gay’ meant ‘happy’), A Bachelor Gay.

At seventeen I fell in love quite madly with eyes of tender blue,

At twenty-four I got it rather badly for eyes of a different hue,

At thirty-five you found me flirting sadly with two or three or more.

When I fancied I was passed love

In Thailand I found my last loves

And I loved them as I’d never loved before.

[Ijustwannateach]

It's a lovely essay, Chris... thanks for posting it here.

"Steven"

[fits and starts]

Let me get this straight your old friend doesn't understand why Thai boys like to have sex with older guys but all 4 of his young lovers wanted to be permanent boyfriends for security? His "stable" of boys or stallions as he calls them is a term of endearment indeed.

IMO Thai boys are no different to Westerners in that there are some young guys who like older men. I myself had a boyfriend, who was 17 years older than me. This man, like so many do, has become delusional and thinks young Thai boys fall in love with them and not their wallets. Maybe it’s the side affects of Viagra! And why do the older generation try to justify their relationships with young Thais, are they so ashamed? After all this guy couldn't even walk through immigration with his b/f he suddenly become his teacher!! Ashamed of being with a young boy was he?

// Good post, thanks - but last line edited - considered a flaming comment to IJWT.

ChrisP

Mod

[fits and starts]

My appologies to IJWT

[ChrisP]

Several irrelevant posts deleted.

ChrisP

Mod

[Boo]

ChrisP

Mod

of the year

[gbswales]

Well I for one am not ashamed of my attraction to younger guys - even here in UK I make it well known. There is however an unusual phenomenom and that is that even though many people find guys in their young teens desirable for first attraction - when they stay together the age factor becomes less important - they kind of grow older together and 20 years on dont notice that the other is not still a teen. I was married to someon 10 years younger for many years and this happend to me. We parted because of my emergent gay side but at the time I still looked on her as being the same age as when we married

I am 59 now and have fallen in love with a 19 year old Thai guy - I hope that this will be the same with him. It is often said that young thai guys (or any young guy) sometimes looks for financial security - why is that something to criticise - the average law of nature says that I will die long before him - I would see it as my natural duty to ensure that he has some security for the future in case he does not meet - or does not want to meet - another man

I have no guilty feelings whatever - I genuinely love him and believe he loves me but for various reasons I cannot live in Thailand other than for holidays ( I have a non life threatening but serious health problem which costs the NHS thousands of pounds to treat so cannot get private health insurance to live anywhere other than in UK). What seriously worries me is the attitude he will encounter amongst many people here who have huge prejudices about such relationships with a big age gap. Being honest with Thai immigration is one thing but I am dreading the looks that he may get from officials and others at Heathrow if he openly says we are boyfriends. I dont care for myself - let them think what they want - but he may not understand the veiled hostility he will find here - especially I am sad to say from the gay community here. Sometimes I ask myself if this is really prejudice or simple jealousy!!

[Ijustwannateach]

Both, no doubt.

I have always been reluctant to give my (straight) Thai students culture shock by, for example, informing them that in the states they would be stigmatized and perhaps even attacked for their habits of:

1. Sitting on each others' laps

2. Hanging all over each other in public

3. Holding hands with their friends

It doesn't even bear mentioning what would happen to the ladyboys, who would most likely be sacrificed to Jesus on the football field.

As far as age gap in a relationship, there is a growing adult prejudice in Anglo-derived countries- no doubt attached to the overall Victorian stigma on sexuality that the British and Americans still have not escaped from.

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

Back in 1996 I fell in love; well now looking back I would call it lust, with a boy in the UK. I was 30 and I thought he was at least 18 but in fact he was 15. We were b/f's for 4 years. His parents knew about the relationship, the mother was ok with it but his father disapproved. I was thankful, looking back, that the father took no action because of course it was illegal for us to be together. I must also add that he came from a wealthy family so there was nothing financial about our relationship.

My emotions during our relationship were on a rollercoaster. It was the most traumatic time of my life. I guess it didn't help that I left my first love of 7 years to be with this boy. I went from being 17 years younger than my b/f to 15 years older. I was the boy's first love and he loved me to bits but my insecurity caused many problems. The thing about our relationship was it was only great in the bedroom but outside it was a total nightmare.

My ex boyfriend was very independent for his age and very strong minded. You cannot compare a typical western teenager with a Thai teenager as Thais are far more immature than westerners at this age. Our age gap was 15 years but I doubt there would be too many unconditional western relationships with an age gap of 40 years that would have a chance of working. I mean how many 19 year old guys are going to have a relationship with a 59 year old in the UK?

There is no denying that Thai’s seek love and security and are willing to accept many things as long as they have this. Is this love? For me it can never be love. For me your relationship is two people coming together to suit each others needs and while there are conditions involved you cannot call it unconditional love.

As for prejudices amongst gay guys in the UK, I think many would see you using your money to get something you wanted and your b/f simply as someone taking it for financial gain and therefore you would lose their respect. I doubt they would be jealous because they could do the same thing if they wanted to. For most they would not consider your relationship unconditional.

I am very wary of Brits who take boys back to the UK, or any country for that matter, on these terms. I know one Thai guy back in the UK who is kept buy his B/f and he is extremely unhappy with his life but cannot do anything to change his situation. Each month he has to send money back home to his parents and because of this he has to stay in an unhappy relationship. One could even say he is being held because he couldn’t afford the airfare to leave even if he wanted to. So are these kept boys truly in love with you or are they just doing the best for their families? I suggest the latter

Edited December 4, 2005 by DUMPSTER

[Guest endure]

I am very wary of Brits who take boys back to the UK, or any country for that matter, on these terms. I know one Thai guy back in the UK who is kept buy his B/f and he is extremely unhappy with his life but cannot do anything to change his situation. Each month he has to send money back home to his parents and because of this he has to stay in an unhappy relationship. One could even say he is being held because he couldn’t afford the airfare to leave even if he wanted to. So are these kept boys truly in love with you or are they just doing the best for their families? I suggest the latter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or perhaps both.

[PeaceBlondie]

A kindly suggestion, please: we often refer to young adults in the 18-30 age range as 'girls' and 'boys.' Because of the sensitive nature of the subject, it helps to clarify, as the last post did, when we're referring to 'boys' or 'girls' between the ages of puberty and age 18 (or legal consent) - better yet, as 'adolescents,' and that we reserve a word like 'children' for pre-pubescents.

Edited December 4, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[DUMPSTER]

Endure, If your b/f depends on you to give him money to send back home to his family then that is a reason for him to remain in the relationship. That cannot be unconditional love or true love. Guys may want to kid themselves that it is but I for one cannot see it. Please enlighten me if you can?

Maybe the term boys should refer to 18 - 24. Surely anyone over 25 cannot be considered a boy, even in Thailand!

[Guest endure]

Endure, If your b/f depends on you to give him money to send back home to his family then that is a reason for him to remain in the relationship. That cannot be unconditional love or true love. Guys may want to kid themselves that it is but I for one cannot see it. Please enlighten me if you can?

Maybe the term boys should refer to 18 - 24. Surely anyone over 25 cannot be considered a boy, even in Thailand!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't believe in 'unconditional love'. There is no such thing - apart from at the movies. All relationships are predicated on the fact that both parties have needs and wants to be satisfied. If those needs and wants mesh well and both parties are happy with whatever arrangement they have, then as far as I'm concerned, that's near enough 'true love' as to make no difference.

[DUMPSTER]

endure wrote. I don't believe in 'unconditional love'. There is no such thing.

Well there's you problem. Ordinary love is selfish, darkly rooted in desires and satisfactions. Divine love is without condition, without boundary, without change. The world as a whole has forgotten the real meaning of the word love. Love has been so abused and crucified by man that very few people know what true love is. Many human beings say "I love you" one day and reject you the next. That is not love.

Just because both parties needs and wants are satisfied and both parties are happy that doesnt make it "true love" as you say. That makes it a convenience. Of course you can live happily like this for years until one of the parties needs or wants changes and that's when the problems set in. That is ordinary love. Unfortunately unconditional love has been experienced by very few which is why you have only experienced it at the movies.

[Guest endure]

Can you define 'divine love' for me? Any relationship between two people is rooted in desires and needs. Where would I find sometime to love without condition, boundary or change?

Edited December 5, 2005 by endure

[foolforlove]

My view is that love relationships are a mixture of feelings for each other and also needs being met.

And "needs" are emotional, financial, mental, and physical.

I think we usually think of a primary relationship as largely meeting all these needs of both people.

If two people are together, and their needs are not being met, then that relationship will not last -- at least not in that form. The relationship will have to

change to allow the unmet needs to be met somewhere/somehow.

If someone wants to be with me, and perhaps their initial draw is based on financial need, we can not say that the relationship will not grow/change to be connected on the other categories.

I think relationships change over time. And where there is a relationship, people dialogue about their needs and things that they are happy with or unhappy with. Perhaps your partner smokes and you do not like that. So this is something you two talk about or work out in some way. How is that different than talking about not connecting on an emotional level? Where is the line drawn between relationship issues to classify them as serious or not serious (ie, dont smoke versus do you really feel love for me)?

Also expanding on the idea of relationships change over time... they are not cast in stone. They are living and evolve like everything else. I dont think its possible to say ok this is a real loving relationship right now, so snapshot, and its set in stone. And it is hard to say a relationship is all "one thing only".

Some posters here have tried to classify different degrees or types of love.

But I am unsure how with certainty we can ever know what someone else is feeling? Two people might speak and say "I love you".... but do they REALLY know they both feel the same sort of thing? Do they really know that the word "love" means the same thing to the other person?

We can only infer indirectly from how people behave towards us their feelings. And that is rife with problems. Because we are posing our interpretations and valuation on their actions to try to discern feelings and motivations that drove those actions to happen.

I know a guy who sometimes I think his interest in me is primarily financial.

But at the same time, when I am feeling down or need help if I call on him he is

there. He is generous with his time. And I think often sacrafices and does things for me that he would prefer not to do. Does them without complaint. We dont always agree on everything. And all my needs are not met in my relationship with him. He is more like a brother to me than a lover (my judgement). But I do love him. And he says he loves me. In fact the more I write this posting and reflect on our time together, the more I realize that I love him and that I am probably too harsh on any financial motives he has.

[Guest endure]

Can you define 'divine love' for me? Any relationship between two people is rooted in desires and needs. Where would I find sometime to love without condition, boundary or change?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry that should have read "someone to love without condition..."

[PeaceBlondie]

Dumpster, if by 'divine love' you are referring to the koine Greek term 'agape,' that's a sacrificial love that gives oneself even if the partner gives nothing. What Western romantic love resembles is 'phileo,' more of a relationship of two equals, more of a mutual giving of one another.

Romantic love in the idealistic, idyllic Western sense is seldom reached, but almost all of us have searched for it, anyway. I think that one of the fallacies about romantic love is that it has to be forever and monogamous, yet it seldom is.

I have almost no idea how 'romantic' the Thai culture is. They may be only a few generations away from arranged marriages and slave marriages. Thai gay men, however, can be very romantic in their behavior, even if they don't open their mouth to kiss.

[Guest endure]

Romantic love in the idealistic, idyllic Western sense is seldom reached, but almost all of us have searched for it, anyway.  I think that one of the fallacies about romantic love is that it has to be forever and monogamous, yet it seldom is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I spent years looking for 'the one'. As I progressed into old farthood it dawned on me that I'd be a long time dead before he came along so I stopped looking for perfection and, as a result, am now happier than I've been for a long time.

[DUMPSTER]

Endure wrote.....Can you define 'divine love' for me? Any relationship between two people is rooted in desires and needs. Where would I find sometime to love without condition, boundary or change?

You find love when you find the truth. To find someone to love you find yourself. You are the truth, you are divine love.

The only problem is not enough of us are looking for the truth so we don't know what love is. We can only desire it and think we have it.

Peaceblondie... I found only the straight guys don't like to do tongues. They just like to shove their ......up you!!!! Is that you experience to?

[Guest endure]

Endure wrote.....Can you define 'divine love' for me? Any relationship between two people is rooted in desires and needs. Where would I find sometime to love without condition, boundary or change?

You find love when you find the truth. To find someone to love you find yourself. You are the truth, you are divine love.

The only problem is not enough of us are looking for the truth so we don't know what love is. We can only desire it and think we have it.

Peaceblondie... I found only the straight guys don't like to do tongues.  They just like to shove their ......up you!!!! Is that you experience to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a neat little post. One minute I'm admonished for not being metaphysical enough - the next minute you're complaining that straight guys won't French kiss. I'll freely admit that I've never been keen on metaphysics. It's also fairly well known that straight guys don't like french kissing with gay guys.

[DUMPSTER]

Endure I would never admonish you! If you are one dimensional with one view of life then you will not fully understand what life really is. If you don't understand what is reality you cannot see the truth. Then you will not see the bigger picture.

So it would seem PeaceBlondie is attracted to straight guys. Are we correct with that assumption?

[Ijustwannateach]

Methinks we're getting a bit...

or were Endure's "dimensionality" and PB's tastes somehow related to the essay above?

I actually liked your description of how relationships progress, DUMPSTER, and what makes them succeed or fail... it's something I've been mulling over since you posted it- however, I, too, disbelieve in "unconditional" love. In other words, I can imagine certain very unpleasant conditions under which my love for just about any person would end- if I discovered they were serial murderer-cannibals, for instance.

On the other hand, I do think that if love is to survive it must be love for the ACTUAL person rather than a fantasy- which means you have to get to *know* the actual person before you can really say you love them (a common-sense reality) and that you must love the combination of the positive side and the flaws of your partner. I think the relationship can only survive if both of you can accept each other's flaws, or if you love each other enough to change whatever flaws the other finds unacceptable (for an example in my case, smoking- I would not seriously date a smoker unless they were willing to give up cigarettes).

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

I believe you have to love yourself to truly love another. If you find flaws in yourself you will see them in another. If you judge yourself you will judge another. If you cannot accept yourself you will not accept another. If you love yourself without condition then you can love another without condition.

"Steven" says he doesnt believe in unconditional love but then says you have to love the positive and the flaws or negatives by accepting them. That's unconditional love whereas his smoker scenario would be conditioned love. Accepting is the key to unconditional love

As endure and I seemed to be the only ones participating I would say we were expanding the topic rather than going off topic and it was the moderator who introduced kissing!

Edited December 6, 2005 by DUMPSTER

[Ijustwannateach]

Accepting the positive side and the flaws of another does *not* actually mean unconditional love, as I understand it. It means that the flaws of the other person are not in a category I would find unacceptable. Thus, I would never accept or love a serial murderer-cannibal in any particular sense, with or without his good side. If I were so unlucky as to fall in love with someone whom later I discovered was a serial murderer-cannibal, I would probably pretty quickly find myself falling out of love with them.

"Steven"

[Guest endure]

Endure I would never admonish you! If you are one dimensional with one view of life then you will not fully understand what life really is.  If you don't understand what is reality you cannot see the truth. Then you will not see the bigger picture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nor am I too keen on being patronised. I don't need lectures on 'dimensionality' nor 'understanding real life'. I live a real life - the fact it doesn't fit in with your preconceptions is not my problem.

[DUMPSTER]

Oh one has to be so careful of misinterpretation when posting.

If you are one dimensional with one view of life then you will not fully understand what life really is. If you don't understand what is reality you cannot see the truth. Then you will not see the bigger picture.

That should have read "If one" or "if a person". I was not aiming this directly at you. Appologies for that.

But to continue, the fact that you think you live in real life is where I will end my posting on this topic as we are coming from very different view points, and I'm not in the justifying or converting business. Each to their own, as I always say.

[Guest endure]

Oh one has to be so careful of misinterpretation when posting.

If you are one dimensional with one view of life then you will not fully understand what life really is. If you don't understand what is reality you cannot see the truth. Then you will not see the bigger picture.

That should have read "If one" or "if a person". I was not aiming this directly at you. Appologies for that.

But to continue, the fact that you think you live in real life is where I will end my posting on this topic as we are coming from very different view points, and I'm not in the justifying or converting business. Each to their own, as I always say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Another bullshit merchant seen off into the long grass...

Bye

[Ijustwannateach]

Yeah, I think someone was fishing for something...

[DUMPSTER]

My oh my. You apologize in a post and state we have different views on life and you end up getting attacked for it.

There definitely seems to be an element on this forum who loves to bait new posters.

Endure wrote...Another bullshit merchant seen of into the grass.

What sort of ignorant post is that?

And, IJWT wrote...yeah I think someone was fishing for something. Fishing for what? What can I be fishing for with what I have posted? Maybe you care to explain.

I wonder if you actually read the posts or just pick the bits you want to use to provoke someone with.

What bothers me is when the person defends themselves you will sing all sweetness and like and scream Troll because you have been posting for years and have 2000 posts in the bag.

It seems to me you are either not interested in attracting new posters or you love to incite them to get some reaction so you can play some kind of sick newbie game.

It’s a bit insulting and pathetic to newbie posters for a forum to allow this to happen. Where’s the moderation on Endure’s post?

Finally I would say for those who didn’t understand my posts or failed to read them

I'm into metaphysics and my posts were inline with this thinking which endure has already stated he isn't keen on. Therefore we are coming from different angles. I didn’t want to take my thoughts any further because I find banging your head against a brick wall is a worthless exercise and one I didn’t want to participate in. Therefore I said “each to their own” which is a polite way of saying I respect your views but don’t agree with them. Unfortunately you didn’t respect mine and endure just flamed me while IJWT just throws out insinuations.

Great posting Endure and IJWT. You are a credit to Gays and this section of the forum.

Edited December 7, 2005 by DUMPSTER