Rule Of Law Takes A Back Seat In Thaksin Passport Drive

[OzMick]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have not come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

As far as I know they have no major differences with the Red Shirts beyond the Thaksin issue. When that particular item of the Red Shirt agenda is off the table the PAD seem to be non existant.

well that's of course the foundation

but i believe it's also on the human level and whether it's the correct case or not, there is a degree of reds looking at yellows as 'snobs and bangkok elite' etc and vice versa as 'simpletons and country bumpkins'... and that kind of opinion of each other goes beyond thaksin.

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

[whybother]

Problem is, Thaksin remains technically and legally a convicted criminal.

I don't think people realise how much of a hurdle this is. He was fairly convicted; there is no doubt in anyones mind about that. Thus, why should he be allowed to get away with it? He should have played the legal games and either appealed or served minimal time. The fact that he has done neither, and has become a fugative looks very bad in the eyes of the law. Was it politically motivated? Most likely, BUT there is no question as to whether he commited the crime.

"He was fairly convicted; there is no doubt in anyones mind about that."

I would have to disagree with the second part of that. His supporters DO NOT think he was fairly convicted.

[Skywalker69]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

Then let me just ask you straight, what are the red shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

[Canada]

If the point of conversation (this one) is to find logic or reason in Thai politics or in the happenings of this country, then it will be either a very long conversation or a very short one. A very short one would be most efficient.

In order to find the logic, one must determine the purpose. The purpose of the government here is not the purpose that we would like to see. Within the context of purpose, I think that all of the actions of this government or the ones before it are very logical. I think we make the assumption that government is for the sake of the people. This is where the road to logic and reason gets all foggy. In truth, the government here is for the sake of a few... then, in that context it all makes sense.

[Skywalker69]

PTP ministers really nothing better to do?

I will answer my own question,

No! Their prime directive is helping their boss

Yes, there are a lot of things they should be focused on, but they aren't, not at all.

Examples: Where's some discussion generated by the PTP ministers which would generate big picture overriding policies:

1). Which demand fast and massive changes to education and much better preparation for today's work environment and which make Thailand more attractive than other Asian countries? (It's not like the discussion about the poor quality of education started yesterday.)

2). Which ensure that modern work opportunities are spread across Thailand, even if it means subsidized freight etc.

3). Which overall gain a better spread the wealth.

4). Which mean that a much larger % of the Thai population have a decent quality of life through their own productivity.

5). Which actually fight corruption.

There is no discuss on any of this by ptp ministers, and their red shirt 'lieutenants' appointed as ministerial advisers certainly aren't pushing for such discussions.

The bottom line is even more disturbing: 99% of these people don't have the capability to be insightful or to generate such discussions and even worse, they have no desire / no intent to start such discussions.

Good post!

PTP has one pupose and one purpose only and that is to bring back the "dear leader and creator of PTP" so he can take back the power and the confiscated 46bilj thb.

[lannarebirth]

If the point of conversation (this one) is to find logic or reason in Thai politics or in the happenings of this country, then it will be either a very long conversation or a very short one. A very short one would be most efficient.

In order to find the logic, one must determine the purpose. The purpose of the government here is not the purpose that we would like to see. Within the context of purpose, I think that all of the actions of this government or the ones before it are very logical. I think we make the assumption that government is for the sake of the people. This is where the road to logic and reason gets all foggy. In truth, the government here is for the sake of a few... then, in that context it all makes sense.

Sure, it's about naked power, but we can't talk about most of the aspects of that, so we content ourselves with pretending Thailand is a democracy.

[scorecard]

Since when does "the rule of law" matter in Thailand? It seems more of a decoration than anything else.

That's the problem!

[elcent]

Si Sa Ket senator, Jittipoj Wiriyarote, backs the issuance of a New Passport for Thaksin.

The reason he gave are more than uneducated.

He doesn't know that a passport is a travel document and not an ID card.

Issuing a passport for a fugitive could also mean that there are no legal issues against Thaksin.

He can always request a travel document back to Thailand, and Thailand only.

[Oberkommando]

Si Sa Ket senator, Jittipoj Wiriyarote, backs the issuance of a New Passport for Thaksin.

The reason he gave are more than uneducated.

He doesn't know that a passport is a travel document and not an ID card.

Issuing a passport for a fugitive could also mean that there are no legal issues against Thaksin.

He can always request a travel document back to Thailand, and Thailand only.

He's got a Montenegrin passport so he certainly doesn't need the Thai one to travel. Indeed the Montenegrin passport is actually better for international travel than its Thai counterpart.

[nurofiend]

They did this in the absence of provocative actions by those they see as their opposition. Also, the criminality of the opposition grew to such a point that the instruments of government could no longer ignore them, so PAD became superfluous. IF they rise again, I would imagine that it might be because they might feel the current government would not only not be willing tocarry out their law enforcemnt duties, but might be even complicit in breaking the laws in furtherance of the interests of one man. I could be wrong but that's my general impression.

It is interesting that no PAD leaders have come out to embrace the general amnesty that is being proposed, even though they would be large beneficiaries of same.

they still have the power to assemble big groups and protest, i think you clearly know this.

what actions have they taken for the purpose of reconciling their differences with the red shirts? is the question.

1. So, are you saying that reconciliation means the reds and the yellows agreeing to some form of compromise?

2. That, amongst other points, seems to suggest your either yellow or your red. Never mind that there are many many Thais who support some aspects of both camps and are very not supportive about other aspects of what each camp espouses.

3. Do you really think that red shirt / yellow shirt 'reconciliation' is the answer to the current situation.

I suggest reconciliation is everybody getting back to some genuine highly visible work towards building a civil society with absolute respect for the law regardless of anything to do with reds or yellows. And yes, if either reds or yellows have broken laws then their cases should be processed through the proper judicial channels and steps of the law, with no interference from anybody.

i'm well aware that everyone in thailand is not either red or yellow.. i'm suggesting when speaking of reconciliation it is mainly focused on those groups, as they have the biggest divide...if you think this isn't the case, then fine.

[nurofiend]

As far as I know they have no major differences with the Red Shirts beyond the Thaksin issue. When that particular item of the Red Shirt agenda is off the table the PAD seem to be non existant.

well that's of course the foundation

but i believe it's also on the human level and whether it's the correct case or not, there is a degree of reds looking at yellows as 'snobs and bangkok elite' etc and vice versa as 'simpletons and country bumpkins'... and that kind of opinion of each other goes beyond thaksin.

Thaksin's the foundation? Well, knock me over with a feather. I had no idea. I thought it was about no more double standards, the rule of law, the pillars of democracy, etc.

sarcasm, the lowest form of humour.

quite a pointless retort don't you think?!

especially since i pointed out that you were pointing out the obvious and you try to turn that on me with a not so funny reply.

must try harder.

[nurofiend]

As far as I know they have no major differences with the Red Shirts beyond the Thaksin issue. When that particular item of the Red Shirt agenda is off the table the PAD seem to be non existant.

well that's of course the foundation

but i believe it's also on the human level and whether it's the correct case or not, there is a degree of reds looking at yellows as 'snobs and bangkok elite' etc and vice versa as 'simpletons and country bumpkins'... and that kind of opinion of each other goes beyond thaksin.

I've got a friend that lives in New York City. he thinks everyone who lives outside NYC is a bumpkin. Other than make jokes about him behind his back (and to his face sometimes), I'm not going to change his viewpoint much.

as interesting as this story sounds... sorry, i'm lying.

[nurofiend]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

[nurofiend]

so you make the valiant point of saying that it should not all be about thaksin, yet in your first sentence you answered that reconciliation for the yellow shirts is "Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases"

Supposedly for the red shirts, it isn't all about Thaksin. For the Yellow shirts, obviously it is, but a lot of it in relation to the law.

The red shirts are getting most of the things that they want, and the Yellow shirts (or others) aren't on the streets or threatening to be on the streets protesting against that.

The red shirts are talking about reconciliation. That shouldn't mean getting everything that they want.

The red shirts can have their people in power and get the handouts that they want, but they don't need Thaksin for that.

let me just ask you straight, what are the yellow shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

Then let me just ask you straight, what are the red shirts actively willing to do that they don't want to do, for reconciliation?

i don't know... my question was in context to someone who seemingly knows exactly what the red shirts want and won't do for reconciliation ie anything, so i asked what the yellow shirts would do?

my basic point was pretty clear, what political support group in thailand doesn't only want what that group wants?

[localsocalman]

It staggers the mind! This fugitive convict --- fomented the PTP redshirts into ANARCHY with weekly, daily TV/Radio propaganda! His sister, PM Yingluck's Foreign Minister Surapong Towichukchaikul, pressured the Japanese government to give this fugitive convict a visa. Foreigners can not enter Japan with a criminal record! How many people and famous artist's have been refused a visa for Japan following some minor misdemeanor?

Get this over with: arrest him, put him in jail. Let him start his sentence --- and then let the strings be pulled while he is serving his sentence. At the same time --- pursue all the other issues Thaksin has been accused of that continue to turn up. Let Thailand take care of its people. If Thaksin is such a great man, then he would have not run away, he would have done his time and by now it would all be finished and all the fires and deaths would not have happened. He's not a man, he's less than! He told people to risk their lives while he's sipping tea --- my how the polo grounds glitter!

The corruption is pervasive! Again, PM Yingluck, the new "Evita" "One has to admire the stage management" and her plausible deniability. As PM isn't everything your responsibility?

[GentlemanJim]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

[hanuman1]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

[whybother]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

The non-controversial threads are here ... they just drop down the list very quickly because no one is interested in commenting on them.

[Dap]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Yes, good question. Anyone wish to respond to this critical request?

[Dap]

Surapong said the move would help reconcile Thai people on both sides of the political divide.

For the red shirts, reconciliation is about doing everything that the red shirts want and stuff what everyone else thinks.

out of interest, what is reconciliation for the yellow shirts?

Having Thaksin serve is jail term and deal with his other court cases ??

The red shirts were fighting for democracy, the end to double standards, and a number of other things. It isn't supposed to be all about Thaksin.

They don't need Thaksin to get most of the things that they want, so why is it that Thaksin seems to be the "be all and end all" of everything?

Thank you, "whybother" ... good answer. Let's hear more from the forum on this.

[OzMick]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

[Buchholz]

How to spot a Red Shirt-apologist: Starts talking about Yellow Shirts in a topic that has nothing to do with them.

On one hand they claim the Yellow Shirts are a spent force, irrelevant, couldn't put up any force in the street. On the other hand they use the Yellow Shirt as a deflector as to why Red Shirts, PTP and Thaksin don't have to follow the law, the spirit of the law or act within the boundaries of good moral.

Well spotted inconsistencies

.

[tlansford]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

agreed.

[scorecard]

What staggers me is that with all of the troubles currently faced by this country, Thaksin is occupying the first 3 threads of this sub forum. The government really need to get cracking on with a few more things. Thaksin should never have been mentioned by this government for two years until they had got a name for themselves by sorting out a few major problems. It's a bit like buying a new Lambo and Ferrari the day after you do a 20 Million bank heist. Its all a bit obvious really.

What occupies the threads on this news forum isn't necessarily indicative of all the things the government - or anyone else - is doing. In the main, it is a result of TV and the Nation's partnership, focusing on what they think will generate the most interest. Want to hear about annual budget discussions and legal amendments? You won't find them here unless they're considered likely to be controversial or worthy of comment. That's what keeps organs such as TV and the Nation going, after all.

agreed.

I don't agree. This thread is specific, and it should be discussed. After all one of the red shirt war cries (thaksin generated smoke screens ) was about equal justice, fair and equal application of the law for all Thais. Here we have a case of a FM (a thaksin relative who has already proven to be dishonest at least) who wants to do things outside of the law. It should be discussed.

Edited December 6, 2011 by metisdead
Repaired the reply, when replying to a post, do not make your entry inside the [quote] tags.

[nurofiend]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

you cannot argue that a coup is democracy mate, well you can but it's pointless.

[OzMick]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

you cannot argue that a coup is democracy mate, well you can but it's pointless.

And you cannot argue that the Thaksin administration was either, well you can but it's pointless.

[nurofiend]

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

you cannot argue that a coup is democracy mate, well you can but it's pointless.

And you cannot argue that the Thaksin administration was either, well you can but it's pointless.

but the difference ozmick is that i'm not arguing for thaksins' administration, however you are arguing for the coup.

[Siam Simon]

The problem is that their respective views are largely accurate. Without going into the merits of their very different life-styles, PAD are not prepared to accept blatant criminality and quite rightly look down on those prepared to do so because of perceived personal gains. OTOH those less well off have good reason to wish to improve their lot.

But what is really ridiculous is the reds claiming that they support democracy and the abolition of double standards, while their actions aim at autocracy and ignoring the criminality of their leaders - double standard at its worst.

ok, but also the yellows supporting a coup... which is a core opposite of democracy.... is double standard at its worst.

I disagree. I look at the coup as an emergency reset button used when democracy had gone wrong. The military were NOT seizing power for their own use, they were taking it away from those abusing it.

Changes to the constitution to prevent a recurrence were made and elections held in a reasonable time frame.

Emergency reset button my ar$e. When the coup-makers eventually got the parliamentary government that they wanted, they ran roughshod over the honest elements of it to the extent that corruption was as bad as ever. The most cringe-worthy moment for me was when Abhisit tried to sort out the empty box 'bomb detector' fiasco, only to be very publicly slapped down at a special press conference called by then army CIC Anupong with pathologist Pornthip by his side singing the empty box's praises .

[Roj]

Thaksin - come back, do your 2 years `bird` and then slip quietly into anonymity. It really is that simple!

[khaowong1]

PTP ministers really nothing better to do?

I will answer my own question,

No! Their prime directive is helping their boss

Yes, there are a lot of things they should be focused on, but they aren't, not at all.

Examples: Where's some discussion generated by the PTP ministers which would generate big picture overriding policies:

1). Which demand fast and massive changes to education and much better preparation for today's work environment and which make Thailand more attractive than other Asian countries? (It's not like the discussion about the poor quality of education started yesterday.)

2). Which ensure that modern work opportunities are spread across Thailand, even if it means subsidized freight etc.

3). Which overall gain a better spread the wealth.

4). Which mean that a much larger % of the Thai population have a decent quality of life through their own productivity.

5). Which actually fight corruption.

There is no discuss on any of this by ptp ministers, and their red shirt 'lieutenants' appointed as ministerial advisers certainly aren't pushing for such discussions.

The bottom line is even more disturbing: 99% of these people don't have the capability to be insightful or to generate such discussions and even worse, they have no desire / no intent to start such discussions.

Yes all of the above would make exceedingly great policies, anywhere in the world. But here in thailand with this government, not going to happen and I sincerely doubt it's even on their minds.