A Corrupt Nation: Thai Opinion

[alanferdi]

Article quoted:"Actually, police don't get much from collecting bribes. It is incomparable to kickbacks earned from state projects which could be worth billions or ten billions of baht."

What a statement !

Yes... its a confirmation that they do take bribes and an excuse too since they do not earn much on it... Some policemen make it to prominent positions. you would run short of paper making a list.

[phetaroi]

...

Corruption is a broad problem (in the public and sectors) and if anyone is serious about getting rid of it, a broad open approach will be required. We cannot continue to say it's only at the politician's level. It's everywhere.

Exactly. The general public pretty much totally accepts it, and to some extent, probably even likes it. And that is why it is so rampant and why it won't get cleaned up UNLESS there is some horrendous situation that creates national shame.

[thanchart]

Corruption is a much more rampant and deep problem than you indicate. For example, certainly you don't imply that the only corruption revenue in the police department is derived from collecting 100 baht notes from traffic violators. Police have very large projects as well where the policians (most) dont dig in their grubby hands, resulting in high personal wealth of police top brass much more than what their measly salaries would afford them.

Corruption is a broad problem (in the public and sectors) and if anyone is serious about getting rid of it, a broad open approach will be required. We cannot continue to say it's only at the politician's level. It's everywhere.

To eliminate Corruption to an insignificant level, it has to start from the Top - and filter down. Will Thailand ever have a PM strong enough to to this? With the support of the King I suppose? The people need to give the PM such a strong mandate that he/she can do the unpopular things that will benefit the country in the long run. Can the Thais see the future and bear with the unpleasantness in the short run - for the sake of their kids and their kids' kids?

And at the lower level, to reduce eliminate petty corruption, the govt has to 1st increase the salary of the working class in the public service, and do it by a significant amount. Takes guts/money and political will to do that.

Take squeaky clean Singapore as an example - would anyone believe if I tell you when I was a kid, the policemen were also corrupted? Accepting (even demanding) petty bribes like those in Philippines and Thailand (and may other countries) today? Try to do that today and u will land in jail or get fined heavily at least.

What Lee Kuan Yew, the founder of modern Singapore put in place was a big increase in salary for the police force - TOGETHER with very heavy punishment and Jail terms if the policemen are caught for accepting bribes And he can forget about working in the Govt after that. And to enforce the new rules. there are actually plain clothes enforcement officers sent out to act as civilians to offer bribes to police. Woe to those who get caught!

Its' a total system put in place to eliminate corruption and at all levels. Even Cabinet Misters are not spared. there was one (very few around) caught and in the end, he ended up commuting suicide to escape the shame - for a few hundred thousand S$ bribe.

An older Filipino Chinese friend (who has passed away 5 yrs ago), told me this and I sincerely believe him)- What Thailand (just like Philippines he was referring to) needs is a Democratic Dictator like Singapore's LKY was when he "ruled" Singapore during her formative years- voted in by the people and acted like a dictator to make things happen - not for himself but for the good of the country. His methods no longer work today as the people have matured and expect more say in the running of the country. But during his time, people were willing to bear with unpopular policies because they see a better tomorrow. Else they would have voted him out at the next election.

The key question is - will the Thai people see far enough to except the sacrifices of the near term to realize the benefits in the next generations to come? Only if the answer is YES, will there be real hope and Fast change. Of course, there has be a PM like LKY, who literally lives for his country. Ultimately his results proved him right. Singaporeans owe what they have today to this man and the team he put in place

[thanchart]

Yes it is obvious, but it should be news everyday even if it is repetitive.

Sweeping it under the carpet (even below the table) will not make it go away.

Hunt it down, make it news, highlight the details and teach the masses that corruption is wrong by making punishment harsh!

Am I dreaming?

Spot ON

[thanchart]

Say what you want, but the locals are amateurs compared to the Republicrats and Demicans. Those guys solved the problem(s) of corruption by simply passing laws legalizing it.

No doubt corruption in Thailand is a drag on the economy, but it didn't collapse the economy like collusion between Big Banks and the western pols.

I'm pretty sure lobbyists alone in the US dole out more in cash than the combined "corruption" of every crooked local Thai- and all absolutely legal.

Agree, it is not hopeless nor as bad as some think. No excuses though. I 1st cane to visit here and Philippines in 1992 At that time, Manila was way ahead of BKK. Now, its completely the opposite. This allow tells me something - if corruption here is bad, imagine over there, The progress here and the lack of it there tells a clear story

[ccarbaugh]

It occured to me today - Couldn't the Ministry of Education

actually educate the population to the fact that even if

they are Thai and the other person is a farang, it is still not

right, moral or ethical to cheat (keeko,) them?

I speak Thai pretty well and have lived here for

a number of years, yet I still get motorcycle taxi's

and tuk-tuks wanting 200 Baht from me for a 30 baht distance.

Seems that Thais are taught that it is completely acceptable

to cheat others - after all, they're only farangs!

[sparebox2]

Corruption returns as soon as Thaksin proxy govt step in.

During Mark's time, Thailand was almost corruption free. Almost, but not quite 100%.

[tamsom]

Do not understand what the fuss is all about. The system in the Land of Frowns works well. You get caught speeding(guilty) you pay 100 to 300 Baht. In the West you get a few tickets and your licence is revoked. Being a government official is one of the greatest prizes. Look at the new airport, built on a swamp. One German company offered to provide luggage carts for FREE if they could advertise for 7 years or so on the cart. It was rejected, but a connected person provided the carts for a fortune. Who paid?

For those who have lived here for a long time please use your knowledge to your advantage. Would any forum member rent a jet ski? There is also an inherent pride of workers in many government offices, and they refuse to take bribes. None of the alleged bankers in the States have been charged. Tear gas made in the US is fired on the streets in Libya. Corruption exists in most countries; there will be no change. Adios.

[alstaxi]

<br>I would like to say something about a politician that was the best teacher of corruption for 5 years.  But it would only get deleted.<br>

<br><br><br>[quote name=Oberkommando'

timestamp='1323417736' post='4900862]<br>

<br>I would like to say something about a politician that was the best teacher of corruption for 5 years.  But it would only get deleted.<br>

<br><br>Corruption was entrenched in Thai culture and society way before he came along.<br><br><br>

But he took it to a level that made everyone else look like they gave a shit about the country.

Edited December 9, 2011 by alstaxi

[garrya]

Say what you want, but the locals are amateurs compared to the Republicrats and Demicans. Those guys solved the problem(s) of corruption by simply passing laws legalizing it.

No doubt corruption in Thailand is a drag on the economy, but it didn't collapse the economy like collusion between Big Banks and the western pols.

I'm pretty sure lobbyists alone in the US dole out more in cash than the combined "corruption" of every crooked local Thai- and all absolutely legal.

And it is deemed legal

[theanimaster]

Nobody it seems has the will or inclination to sort the mess out. So on and on we go, day after day, filling the pocket's with illegal gain and telling all and sundry what "we" have just done.

Leadership starts from the top and if the Thai people keep electing corrupt leaders and those corrupt leaders installing more corrupt cronies into senior positions this will never stop and so Thailand will become a failed state. Maybe it is now! Close to it.

One of my pet dislikes is the Thai Education system and making all the kids pass year after year!! Doing such an injustice to the students is not at all teaching them the skills that they need to survive and get ahead in the future. It is consigning those people to the rice paddies, factories and sex industry of the future.. All to support some "hi-so" in Bangkok.

I just hope that one day the this will come back and bite those dam_n stupid teachers who all they do is collect money to allow the kids to pass.

Am disgusted as ever!

It was DESIGNED that way. If not, where will they get the mindless fools to vote for them?

The only way out would be either to drop an atomic bomb on the whole nation or to create a deadly and excruciating virus that singles out politicians. Simply impossible, but not as impossible as option 3: educate Thai people to think properly and value morals over money.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Corruption is a much more rampant and deep problem than you indicate. For example, certainly you don't imply that the only corruption revenue in the police department is derived from collecting 100 baht notes from traffic violators. Police have very large projects as well where the policians (most) dont dig in their grubby hands, resulting in high personal wealth of police top brass much more than what their measly salaries would afford them.

Corruption is a broad problem (in the public and sectors) and if anyone is serious about getting rid of it, a broad open approach will be required. We cannot continue to say it's only at the politician's level. It's everywhere.

I agree, "It's everywhere." The most corrupt person I know in Thailand is an elementary school teacher who also is engaged in real estate fraud. She will cheat strangers, friends and even family members. She belongs in jail, but she teaches Thai children, which makes me wonder how worse corruption will get in the future. Corruption is a major part of Thai culture. It has become a "cultural norm."

[jackr]

It's surely morbid; bent from top to bottom in every facet, but better here than the alternative. Just avoid everyone and stick your fingers in your ears.

[Oberkommando]

educate Thai people to think properly and value morals over money.

Impossible given that they are raised to worship money.

There's a reason those Buddhas are gold.

[xthAi76s]

I'm reading a book: Working with the Thais -- A Guide to Managing in Thailand.

The book talks much about culture and the differences that makes the Thais -- Thai.

There would seem many cultural challenges within Thailand that create a perfect environment for this kind of corruption.

1st up: Power Distance Index

Thais rank rather highly in this index which is a measure of the extent to which Thais accept that power is distributed unequally and that they expect and prefer greater hierarchical gaps among members of society.

2nd up: Collectivism and a focus on Relationship Building

Thais rank near the top in this aspect. Their life focus tends to be on relationship building within the various communities or circles to which they belong.

3rd up: Conflict Avoidance

Thais rank very high in this category as well.

4th up: Know Your Place And Like IT which is tied into the Mai Bpen Rai attitude

The Thai expression 'Boon Tham Kam Taeng' means your current status is due to your karma. In other words, you really cannot do much to control your place in society and on the planet as where you are currently is due to past lives you've lived.

When you add all these things up, it's really a perfect storm for ineptitude and corruption. Once the authoritarian head of any section of society falls for darker elements of human greed, indeed the whole of society (more-or-less) goes with him. When learning about Thai culture, I'm almost tempted to think that much of these cultural rules evolved to protect the rich and powerful from the vast poor peasantry. You know, things like "you should accept your lot in life" because "it's not really changeable much" ... "because of who you are/were in past lives and who your family were in past lives". Something of a Caste system indeed. Most all civilizations had similar systems at some point, but most of us seemed to have snapped out of it with the Europeans leading the way. I would imagine that the civilizations of very old in Europe and even other now modern older countries had similar problems of corruption, ineptitude and greed.

It's gonna take education and a belief that you can move your lot in life to help change these things. But, as of now, the system of culture here has a perfect stranglehold on Thais inability to change things. Why would you change something that is perfect for reasons you can't understand because they are totally out of your control? What a dilemma.

[Oberkommando]

^ Excellent post and exactly why it is a cultural flaw or even a flawed cultural model depending on how you view it.

[silsburyhill]

The corruption in Thailand is everywhere, all the time.

A couple of days ago my brother was caught by the police for littering. He had thrown an empty yoghurt box on the street, so the police walked him to the nearest police shed and fined him 2000 baht. Before my bro left, he asked them if he could get a reciept. One of the officers replied: "Do you want 1000 baht back, or do you want the reciept"?

He did the right thing and took the reciept, walking away with a smile on his face, knowing that he had robbed them of their tea money. He knew that if he had not taken the reciept, the police would just stuff the money in their own pockets.

The corruption will never end. People in this country are just too money hungry and greedy.. Hell, even when u get married you gotta PAY for it. Pathetic.

No, and this country's environment will continue to be sullied by the likes of your stupid brother tossing garbage on to the street! Couldn't he have made the effort to dispose of it properly? I always do. If no litter bins available I'll take it to the nearest black bag, they're everywhere waiting for collection.

What an astonishing post!

[silsburyhill]

Corruption returns as soon as Thaksin proxy govt step in.

During Mark's time, Thailand was almost corruption free. Almost, but not quite 100%.

Wrong. Corruption rose under Abhisit.

[Nontaburi]

During Mark's time, Thailand was almost corruption free. Almost, but not quite 100%.

I would agree if you said that government during Mark's time was less corrupt, but even at that not all. We won't go naming names though, will we?

However it is a well known fact that the number of corrupt in this government is higher but it seems 15 million people are perfectly fine with that, or refuse to believe the facts.

[Oberkommando]

However it is a well known fact that the number of corrupt in this government is higher but it seems 15 million people are perfectly fine with that, or refuse to believe the facts.

So you will be able to provide evidence to corroborate these 'facts'?

Thanks in advance.

[OZEMADE]

Will the Thai Police try this, I don't think so and I don't see how it would work, but who knows. At least they are trying in Vietnam.

In anti-bribery move, traffic cops in southern Vietnam told not to carry more than $4.7

In an effort to stamp out bribery, the Ho Chi MinhCity traffic police department has ordered officers not to carry more thanVND100,000 (US$4.7) in their pockets while on duty. Anyone who needs to carry more than that amountwill have to put it in a sealed envelope.

http://www.thanhniennews.com/2010/Pages/20111202-Traffic-cops-asked-to-carry-less-money-no-phone-in-southern-Vietnam.aspx

[BigJohnnyBKK]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference. - Prayer of St. Francis -

Damnable fatalism.

No, choosing your battles, making the distinction between tilting at windmills and things you can actually accomplish is what enables having a real positive impact on the world.

Not to mention preserving the possibility of your own peace of mind - IMO essential to having a positive impact in the world - in the process.

IMO internal serenity for all is the ultimate goal of our existence here anyway , all the rest is just means to that end.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I'm reading a book: Working with the Thais -- A Guide to Managing in Thailand.

The book talks much about culture and the differences that makes the Thais -- Thai.

<snip>

And in fact "corruption is bad" "a level playing field for business is good" "the government job is to look after the common people" are all cultural-specific moral values.

All the banging heads against walls going on here at TV comes from members thinking that everyone should think the same way.

Well they don't.

Corruption will only end here when someone with Gandhi's level of morality holds nearly absolute power, even more than Thaksin had before the coup. Of course then he sure wouldn't put in a system looking like Europe or the US, which are just as fundamentally corrupt, but only at a higher level, not so much on the ground in every day life.

In other words, it won't happen.

If members here are actually sincere about improving Thailand for the sake of its own people, get out and contribute to or work for private-sector charities, or do what you can with those you know.

If you're looking to improve Thailand for your own benefit, I have no idea of an effective way to try to do that other than the above.

If you're seeking happiness, see the serenity prayer, and work on improving what's wrong between your own ears rather than in the outside world.

If you just enjoy wasting time arguing, well then by all means keep doing that. . .

[xthAi76s]

I'm reading a book: Working with the Thais -- A Guide to Managing in Thailand.

The book talks much about culture and the differences that makes the Thais -- Thai.

<snip>

And in fact "corruption is bad" "a level playing field for business is good" "the government job is to look after the common people" are all cultural-specific moral values.

All the banging heads against walls going on here at TV comes from members thinking that everyone should think the same way.

Well they don't.

Corruption will only end here when someone with Gandhi's level of morality holds nearly absolute power, even more than Thaksin had before the coup. Of course then he sure wouldn't put in a system looking like Europe or the US, which are just as fundamentally corrupt, but only at a higher level, not so much on the ground in every day life.

In other words, it won't happen.

If members here are actually sincere about improving Thailand for the sake of its own people, get out and contribute to or work for private-sector charities, or do what you can with those you know.

If you're looking to improve Thailand for your own benefit, I have no idea of an effective way to try to do that other than the above.

If you're seeking happiness, see the serenity prayer, and work on improving what's wrong between your own ears rather than in the outside world.

If you just enjoy wasting time arguing, well then by all means keep doing that. . .

Thanks for the reply, but I don't get into moral relativism. If you go by the highest power in this Kingdom, very respectfully, you will no doubt find that corruption is seen as a negative characteristic of the country. On the face of it all, there are drives to end it, so, there too, with the leaders of industry and ministers of government at all levels, at least publicly, corruption is seen as a negative characteristic which must be ended to improve the lives of those here.

I try my best not to compare cultures on the goodness of their characteristics -- I am not always successful in this regard -- but I am interested (as a necessity for conducting business here, and for the sake of knowledge) to understand how cultural traits might affect a people's ability to function in the world they live in and with the goals they have.

[scorecard]

One of my pet dislikes is the Thai Education system and making all the kids pass year after year!! Doing such an injustice to the students is not at all teaching them the skills that they need to survive and get ahead in the future. It is consigning those people to the rice paddies, factories and sex industry of the future.. All to support some "hi-so" in Bangkok.

I just hope that one day the this will come back and bite those dam_n stupid teachers who all they do is collect money to allow the kids to pass.

Am disgusted as ever!

I'm pretty sure that the "no fail" or "social promotion" policy comes from the ministry of education, and not the teachers themselves. Since the parents pay for their kids to go to school here, the schools have to maintain an image. If you fail half your school every year, not only will the parents ask a lot of questions, but so would the government, who pays for these schools. Everyone wants to save face; the teachers, students and the school administration. The funny thing is, that everyone knows how this affects the students, but basically get paid to ignore it.

This is another example of how corruption is an institution here. The "smartest people" in the country who run the MOE have decided to create a system in which no one looks bad, but year after year rubber stamping laziness and ignoring the efforts of the hardworking. I think tit's a cultural thing. Fairness and honesty for the sake of doing what's right is just not important here.

In my area of LOS the "parents" ,"grand parents", carers, de facto parents would not know how to ask a question let alone care if the kids failed year in year and year out. They are a selfish lot who only seem to care when the kids get to an age where they can work the paddies or take of to the cities to earn some income to send back to the village.

Regarding the schools here well they are just a place to go to and pass the time of day having fun with all the other kids.. It's not serious here, it's just filing in time!! Teachers don't bother to turn up day in day out. The teachers that do seem to just waste the day away, sometimes sleeping, sometimes eating.

They still get paid regardless of the work they do!!!!

Lets not see all grandparents in a black and white scenario, some do push education.

On the other hand we have a distant relative (a grandmother) who takes care of several grandchildren, all dumped on her from small babies, parents rarely come to visit and are basically strangers to the children.

The kids rarely go to school. Why? Grandmother says "They just go to school to play, they can do that at home free."

[cowslip]

I'm reading a book: Working with the Thais -- A Guide to Managing in Thailand.

The book talks much about culture and the differences that makes the Thais -- Thai.

There would seem many cultural challenges within Thailand that create a perfect environment for this kind of corruption.

1st up: Power Distance Index

Thais rank rather highly in this index which is a measure of the extent to which Thais accept that power is distributed unequally and that they expect and prefer greater hierarchical gaps among members of society.

2nd up: Collectivism and a focus on Relationship Building

Thais rank near the top in this aspect. Their life focus tends to be on relationship building within the various communities or circles to which they belong.

3rd up: Conflict Avoidance

Thais rank very high in this category as well.

4th up: Know Your Place And Like IT which is tied into the Mai Bpen Rai attitude

The Thai expression 'Boon Tham Kam Taeng' means your current status is due to your karma. In other words, you really cannot do much to control your place in society and on the planet as where you are currently is due to past lives you've lived.

When you add all these things up, it's really a perfect storm for ineptitude and corruption. Once the authoritarian head of any section of society falls for darker elements of human greed, indeed the whole of society (more-or-less) goes with him. When learning about Thai culture, I'm almost tempted to think that much of these cultural rules evolved to protect the rich and powerful from the vast poor peasantry. You know, things like "you should accept your lot in life" because "it's not really changeable much" ... "because of who you are/were in past lives and who your family were in past lives". Something of a Caste system indeed. Most all civilizations had similar systems at some point, but most of us seemed to have snapped out of it with the Europeans leading the way. I would imagine that the civilizations of very old in Europe and even other now modern older countries had similar problems of corruption, ineptitude and greed.

It's gonna take education and a belief that you can move your lot in life to help change these things. But, as of now, the system of culture here has a perfect stranglehold on Thais inability to change things. Why would you change something that is perfect for reasons you can't understand because they are totally out of your control? What a dilemma.

I agree to a certain extent with what you and the book say, but you need to be very wary of these "guides" to Thailand as they are largely by people who are unqualified in this field - they draw their conclusions from their experiences - lately personal - in business. Whereas corruption in business in rampant and as a rough guide your points might help, you really need to look closely at Thai social history and that of the nations and cultures within Thailand and the region.

THe very way that local "officials" - she weren't actually official - use to curry favour on behalf of villages has lead to an entire civil service that is based of gratuities and graft.......they also tend to have real POWER rather than be servants.

A total lack of understanding of democratic institutions and how they work and interact has also lead to the marbling of all Thai culture with an larding level of corruption that isn't even identified as corruption by many Thai people.

[pauljones]

I used to purchase equipment for a company.

Quite often, the vendors offered me blank receipts so I could scam too.

Standard procedure.

[cowslip]

I used to purchase equipment for a company.

Quite often, the vendors offered me blank receipts so I could scam too.

Standard procedure.

Tax evasion.......public funds robbed by those who don't pay tax or claim back VAT they never payed

Roads not properly built because contractors syphon off money for them selves

Laws not enforced as the police firstly try to take the part of the judiciary and then try to skim any fines etc for themselves - so nothing enters the public coffers and any projects are under-funded.

Corruption eats at the very fabric of society.

Thailand is not a poor nation nor is it underdeveloped, it is merely held back by a corrupt elite who perform a balancing act between corruption and exploitation and so keep themselves and all the nations wealth in their own pockets.

12% of the nation's wealth is in the hands of 40 people - according to Forbes.

Edited December 10, 2011 by cowslip

[jomtienbob]

We had to pay the government officers almost 1/4 the amount of a house purchase to get product approved with the Thai FDA. They stonewalled us for 4 years until we had no other choice. If only they had told us that in advance, it wouldn't have been so bad...

[cowslip]

Education is being used a lot here as if it is some catch-all cure for the situation.

I don't see it as that or even central. Someone has to take some action.

A few years ago a journalist suggested a day when everyone refused to pay the police "fines" - I believe they were killed.

If a day like this happened it would strike at the very base of this tower of corruption and the whole thing would collapse. THat would be enough to "educate" not just the people but the corrupt too.