Married Men

[MiG16]

Asking someone directly to bed is bad manners regardless of the situation.

That's what I've been saying all along. So maybe there are some things we agree on. Cavemen instinct or not.

I read your comments in response to msclueless and think we might be on a better wavelength now

However I still need to make clear where we differ

You talked about workplace romance or flirtation. Msclueless talked about some men she had just met. Barely spoken to for a few minutes. Then they ask her to bed - in either outright rude terms or in slightly more subtle way, but nevertheless suggesting to someone u have hardly spoken to that she should take him home with her?

In my opinion that's not 'office romance' or any kind of romance at all!

But I suppose our ideas of romance differ entirely

[manarak]

Asking someone directly to bed is bad manners regardless of the situation.

That's what I've been saying all along. So maybe there are some things we agree on. Cavemen instinct or not.

I read your comments in response to msclueless and think we might be on a better wavelength now

However I still need to make clear where we differ

You talked about workplace romance or flirtation. Msclueless talked about some men she had just met. Barely spoken to for a few minutes. Then they ask her to bed - in either outright rude terms or in slightly more subtle way, but nevertheless suggesting to someone u have hardly spoken to that she should take him home with her?

In my opinion that's not 'office romance' or any kind of romance at all!

But I suppose our ideas of romance differ entirely

haha, yes :-)

if you read msclueless' posts on the first thread page, she only referred to men "making advances", which I do not automatically interpret into "asking someone to bed".

http://idioms.yourdi...m/make-advances

meaning #1 is not easy to differentiate from #2...

and she didn't make it very clear if everyone asked her to bed or if a large portion of these advances were just offers to meet privately.

She seemed more shocked about the fact that these men were married, and in her first post many different issues were mixed, i.e. respect for women, if all women were fair game, etc.

So it was not only about rude men.

Regarding office romance... yeah, well... it seems some people have more than just the instincts of a caveman.

Rare are the women who enjoy one nights stands. But even if the man's goal is a one night stand, I really do believe there are tactful ways to to find out if a woman is up for it or not.

I think men should not refrain from trying, I think they should try tactfully.

But that's obviously not a game cavemen are good at :-)

for me, it's all a question of manners, tact and intelligence. The weapons of a gentleman.

Edited January 4, 2012 by manarak

[F1fanatic]

Asking a woman you hardly know, or one you have only spoken to briefly, to bed is considered tactful?

And if I remember correctly the op said one of them was vulgar

If that's the case I shall remain a biased person

asking to bed = not tactful

asking to meet privately for dinner or a drink = tactful

one of them != all of them

misbehavior by some is no reason to throw away the whole lot...

there are ways to be tactful and still make the proposal to meet. I don't know why this is so difficult.

Any man who asks a woman he hardly knows (but does know she is married), to meet privately for dinner/drink is going to make the woman feel uncomfortable. Women, generally, hate to offend even more than men - which is why they find it so embarrassing.

It sounds as if you are one of those unfortunate men who think they are being 'tactful' - when, in fact, women find your 'subtle' approach extremely embarrassing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by F1fanatic

[LadyHeather]

Some men are clueless it seems. There are ways to flirt without causing offense but many men seem to be lacking this skill. Or perhaps they have been in Thailand too long and have forgotten what subtlety means.

I was at a popular jazz club here in Chiang Mai with a friend one night when a drunk Canadian and his friend sat down at my table while my friend was at the bar getting our drinks. He proceeded to come on to me in a rather aggressive way, becoming cruder and more crass as moments passed. My friend returned to the table, we left our drinks and left the bar. I don't tolerate crude boorish behavior from men who clearly never learned how to speak politely.

Yes, there is an art to mild flirtation and from what MsClueless posted, it seems these men did not have it. It also seems there are quite a few excuses for poor behavior being posted here, when really, that is all it is. Simply poor behavior from men with no manners, nothing more.

[bkkjames]

Some men are clueless it seems. There are ways to flirt without causing offense but many men seem to be lacking this skill. Or perhaps they have been in Thailand too long and have forgotten what subtlety means.

I was at a popular jazz club here in Chiang Mai with a friend one night when a drunk Canadian and his friend sat down at my table while my friend was at the bar getting our drinks. He proceeded to come on to me in a rather aggressive way, becoming cruder and more crass as moments passed. My friend returned to the table, we left our drinks and left the bar. I don't tolerate crude boorish behavior from men who clearly never learned how to speak politely.

Yes, there is an art to mild flirtation and from what MsClueless posted, it seems these men did not have it. It also seems there are quite a few excuses for poor behavior being posted here, when really, that is all it is. Simply poor behavior from men with no manners, nothing more.

Did anyone tell you that you are cute when you are ranting?

[manarak]

Asking a woman you hardly know, or one you have only spoken to briefly, to bed is considered tactful?

And if I remember correctly the op said one of them was vulgar

If that's the case I shall remain a biased person

asking to bed = not tactful

asking to meet privately for dinner or a drink = tactful

one of them != all of them

misbehavior by some is no reason to throw away the whole lot...

there are ways to be tactful and still make the proposal to meet. I don't know why this is so difficult.

Any man who asks a woman he hardly knows (but does know she is married), to meet privately for dinner/drink is going to make the woman feel uncomfortable. Women, generally, hate to offend even more than men - which is why they find it so embarrassing.

It sounds as if you are one of those unfortunate men who think they are being 'tactful' - when, in fact, women find your 'subtle' approach extremely embarrassing.

555

no, I don't think so...

but I do think you are being a bit petit bourgeois

[MsClueless]

It seems you met men with bad manners that weren't tactful at all.

Asking someone directly to bed is bad manners regardless of the situation.

that is what I want to know. why men who seem educated, good job (not blue collar taxi as you say) why they dont have manners?

Maybe imagine a situation where you meet men who are more your peers than service providers.

For example at a company event, internal or with external vendors, clients or suppliers.

You have a nice chat with the sales manager of sector 43, he's attractive and asks you if you would like to meet him for dinner on Saturday...

half of your situation is true. they are similar level to me. but the way it happen is

with one hardly any talk. just say hello. introduce names. i go away. then later maybe after one hour. I meet him again and he say this very rude thing (that I cannot repeat!)

You certainly have every right to be disgusted by the behavior of obnoxious men rudely asking you to bed.

But you shouldn't have a problem with polite and friendly men asking you out for a date, and who don't make a fuss about a refusal?

I fail to see how this automatically involves vulgarity or rudeness, but the expression is very vague and I guess it can be understood in quite different ways.

[sbk]

Asking a woman you hardly know, or one you have only spoken to briefly, to bed is considered tactful?

And if I remember correctly the op said one of them was vulgar

If that's the case I shall remain a biased person

asking to bed = not tactful

asking to meet privately for dinner or a drink = tactful

one of them != all of them

misbehavior by some is no reason to throw away the whole lot...

there are ways to be tactful and still make the proposal to meet. I don't know why this is so difficult.

Any man who asks a woman he hardly knows (but does know she is married), to meet privately for dinner/drink is going to make the woman feel uncomfortable. Women, generally, hate to offend even more than men - which is why they find it so embarrassing.

It sounds as if you are one of those unfortunate men who think they are being 'tactful' - when, in fact, women find your 'subtle' approach extremely embarrassing.

555

no, I don't think so...

but I do think you are being a bit petit bourgeois

Is it really necessary to insult someone you don't agree with?

[manarak]

Is it really necessary to insult someone you don't agree with?

it is not an insult, maybe a mild derision:

[...]usually derisively,[...]the expression "bourgeois mentality", used to define the cultural worldview associated with Victorianism, in particular the repression of emotional and sexual desires, and the construction of an intensely regulated social space[...]

(from wikipedia)

it think it is a just return for getting personal and condescendingly calling me a delusional lout (without knowing me):

It sounds as if you are one of those unfortunate men who think they are being 'tactful' - when, in fact, women find your 'subtle' approach extremely embarrassing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by manarak

[manarak]

It seems you met men with bad manners that weren't tactful at all.

Asking someone directly to bed is bad manners regardless of the situation.

that is what I want to know. why men who seem educated, good job (not blue collar taxi as you say) why they dont have manners?

Many people don't have manners, also among educated people in the western world.

Manners aren't very important nowadays to ascend the corporate ladder (unfortunately).

Maybe imagine a situation where you meet men who are more your peers than service providers.

For example at a company event, internal or with external vendors, clients or suppliers.

You have a nice chat with the sales manager of sector 43, he's attractive and asks you if you would like to meet him for dinner on Saturday...

half of your situation is true. they are similar level to me. but the way it happen is

with one hardly any talk. just say hello. introduce names. i go away. then later maybe after one hour. I meet him again and he say this very rude thing (that I cannot repeat!)

What can I say except from that they were very bad mannered (or very drunk)!

I do think alcohol and the delicate and self-effacing character (I don't want to say submissive, because it is not true) of Thai women in social functions can cause farang men to feel too much at ease and their inhibitions to disappear and result in such unfortunate situation.

Also, I would think these farang men you met at the social gathering are less concerned about their image (face) than Thai men in a comparable situation.

I guess it would be socially damaging for a Thai man to behave in such manner.

The farang men probably don't care at all, maybe because they know almost nobody in Bangkok, maybe because their job there is just for some years before being transferred elsewhere or because their position or business is so well established that it won't matter what Thai people will gossip behind their back.

Again I am just guessing about the reasons for the farang men's behavior.

MsClueless, I would very much like to give a more insightful opinion on what happened, but it seems you just met a few rude people.

Which business or industry do you work in and how many farang men were present in total?

Edited January 5, 2012 by manarak

[wxyz]

Is it really necessary to insult someone you don't agree with?

good one

[wxyz]

Some men are clueless it seems. There are ways to flirt without causing offense but many men seem to be lacking this skill. Or perhaps they have been in Thailand too long and have forgotten what subtlety means.

I was at a popular jazz club here in Chiang Mai with a friend one night when a drunk Canadian and his friend sat down at my table while my friend was at the bar getting our drinks. He proceeded to come on to me in a rather aggressive way, becoming cruder and more crass as moments passed. My friend returned to the table, we left our drinks and left the bar. I don't tolerate crude boorish behavior from men who clearly never learned how to speak politely.

Yes, there is an art to mild flirtation and from what MsClueless posted, it seems these men did not have it. It also seems there are quite a few excuses for poor behavior being posted here, when really, that is all it is. Simply poor behavior from men with no manners, nothing more.

I am guessing you get that a lot

[LadyHeather]

It is unclear if you are trying to imply something about me or about the calibre of western men in Thailand with your comment wxyz . However, nearly all of the men I meet in Chiang Mai are well mannered and capable of polite behavior with women, if one took posts on this forum as the norm of behavior among western men in Thailand I suppose it would be very surprising to find that is so. However, my experiences have shown to me that the men who post on this forum are either not out in polite company or simply hide behind keyboard personas playing at someone or something they are not and that they generally do not behave as poorly in public as some do here.

[bkkjames]

I don't care what they say heather, you are still cute when you are angry.

[hehehoho]

Perhaps their oven needed cleaning and the wife was away.

Disclaimer:

No sexual euphemisms have been used in this post.

[wxyz]

It is unclear if you are trying to imply something about me or about the calibre of western men in Thailand with your comment wxyz . However, nearly all of the men I meet in Chiang Mai are well mannered and capable of polite behavior with women, if one took posts on this forum as the norm of behavior among western men in Thailand I suppose it would be very surprising to find that is so. However, my experiences have shown to me that the men who post on this forum are either not out in polite company or simply hide behind keyboard personas playing at someone or something they are not and that they generally do not behave as poorly in public as some do here.

I was complementing you, inferring you are an attractive lady

and attractive women attract badly behaving men, and or bring out the beast in them.

It is part of the bad that goes with the good of being an attractive woman.

[KRS1]

MsClueless, i think you are just hotter than you are giving yourself credit for.

I will need to investigate.

[marstons]

Mscluless as a matter of principal i would have left the gathering if i had been so offeneded, and be subjected to sexual harresment. If it were a Western company they would have supported you. if not you would have still had your principlas or do you remain working for the the same company that put you in this position.

Edited January 25, 2012 by marstons

[F1fanatic]

Mscluless as a matter of principal i would have left the gathering if i had been so offeneded, and be subjected to sexual harresment. If it were a Western company they would have supported you. if not you would have still had your principlas or do you remain working for the the same company that put you in this position.

Why should the OP have to leave "the gathering" just because a few men were being obnoxious! Surely the men in question should have been forced to leave the party?

If its any consolation Ms Clueless - I'm a Western woman in her 50s and a few years ago felt sorry for a vet visiting for 2 weeks to help Soi Dogs. (I met him at a Soi Dog fund raiser and he told me how he hadn't seen the island at all as he spent all his time working at Soi Dogs).

Anyway, having enormous respect for the work he was doing, I told him I would hire a taxi to show him the island.

All was fine (although I did subconsciously think he was getting a touch 'too friendly' in the taxi) - until he bluntly came out and said "I find you v attractive, do you find me attractive?" - in a way that made it obvious he was asking me if I was up for sex.....

I was insulted that he assumed I was 'up for it' with a relative stranger, so sympathise that as an Asian woman you have it far worse!

[manarak]

All was fine (although I did subconsciously think he was getting a touch 'too friendly' in the taxi) - until he bluntly came out and said "I find you v attractive, do you find me attractive?" - in a way that made it obvious he was asking me if I was up for sex.....

I was insulted that he assumed I was 'up for it' with a relative stranger, so sympathise that as an Asian woman you have it far worse!

Hi F1fanatic, I would like to ask you why you felt offended?

Can you please dissect your feeling and thoughts in that moment?

I'm really interested in knowing what your feelings were at that moment and I intend no offense whatsoever by asking you that question, I just want to understand how a woman feels in such a situation.

[marstons]

Mscluless as a matter of principal i would have left the gathering if i had been so offeneded, and be subjected to sexual harresment. If it were a Western company they would have supported you. if not you would have still had your principlas or do you remain working for the the same company that put you in this position.

Why should the OP have to leave "the gathering" just because a few men were being obnoxious! Surely the men in question should have been forced to leave the party?

If its any consolation Ms Clueless - I'm a Western woman in her 50s and a few years ago felt sorry for a vet visiting for 2 weeks to help Soi Dogs. (I met him at a Soi Dog fund raiser and he told me how he hadn't seen the island at all as he spent all his time working at Soi Dogs).

Anyway, having enormous respect for the work he was doing, I told him I would hire a taxi to show him the island.

All was fine (although I did subconsciously think he was getting a touch 'too friendly' in the taxi) - until he bluntly came out and said "I find you v attractive, do you find me attractive?" - in a way that made it obvious he was asking me if I was up for sex.....

I was insulted that he assumed I was 'up for it' with a relative stranger, so sympathise that as an Asian woman you have it far worse!

well is she is so traumatised by it, surly she could not possibly stay working for such a terrible group of people. i wonder has she put in writing the events of the night to her employres, or is it just a rant on a forun that was always bound to stir up a hornets nest. had i been treated in such a ditessing way, well i would have quit stating why.

Best thing to do would have sat down and wrote lettters of complaint to all concerned, along with senior management. thats what happens in Farang land. in my opinion we in the west value our marriages more than people living in Sout East Asia.

Ms Cluless should maybe start a campaign to try and get the countrys image changed, i for one state i live in South East ASia not Thailand such is the reputation of the country thanks to the certain female population that work in the sex industry.

MsCluless have you put your feelings in to writing to your emplyees or the men concerned, even an e mail telling them what you thought of them.

as an aside i go through this sort of sexual harresment from Thai women day in day out, some times its seems they think its acceptable to put there hands between my legs. i learn to deal with it and move on, suggest you do the same and try and get your country to cloen its act up. something only the NGO's in the States do. there have been many well documneted cases of high ranking thai officials tuning up representing the country with a gick in tow not the wife. the japanaese have certainly made it clear they do not accept this behaviour of the Thai HiSo set. be under no illision its be no means a farang thing.

Edited January 26, 2012 by marstons

[bangkokburning]

Many of the guys that come here are making up for lost time. And if we were honest most stay on becasue of the ease of availability of women. If Thailand were to ever seriously clamp down on the sex trade, most of these guys would be gone. They were never especially good with the ladies, nor attractive to them. They married a lump and were never the addonis they see themselves as now - with a few beers in them and a pocketful of cash. Becasue they can offer an attractive woman enough money to sleep with them OR even b.s. decent Thai women into the same - they are now "players". They are really just losers. TOTAL losers.

The man I have absolutley no respect for: He's no prize, found some bar girl willing to tolerate him (his drinking, whoring, fattness), married her - or simply keeps her. She cleans and cooks...he's out at the bar sizing up the talent every few days. bragging, boasting. Yeah, cheating is just the way things are done around here...

It's not - and the Thai value marriage as much as anyone else.

The whole thing really blew open with the Internet. When all these losers figured out that Thailand wasn't dangerous and they did not need to do a sex tour (about <2000). The next invasion was when the # went to soaring heights and it drove all sorts of coarse English riff raff over here. Next were the Aussies when there dollar strengthed - now, all sorts of guys who literally live in the outback are now living in the Big Mango and Pattaya and they shall I say, are not the most polite or empathetic lot.

Those people are quite different than a couple whose marriage has run its course and one or both cheat rather than getting a divorce OR cheating is th ebeginning of the end (weakness). That happens everywhere.

My girlfriends parents have been married four decades and my parents 56 years.

Edited January 27, 2012 by bangkokburning

[sparebox2]

IMHO, marriage is carried out so that your children can be proud that they have a legally registered Mom & Dad. Stop them from being abuse by other children in school. It has got nothing to do with love or sex. This is just my opinion.

[sbk]

Sounds like a few are blaming the victim, she should quit because of the bad behavior of others. Perhaps rather than punish someone who has done no wrong it would be more appropriate to punish those who did???

[marstons]

Sounds like a few are blaming the victim, she should quit because of the bad behavior of others. Perhaps rather than punish someone who has done no wrong it would be more appropriate to punish those who did???

She should compalin and get them fired rather than just coming on here, just giving my view that i would not work for a company that subjected me to that humiliation, i have principals. If the empoyer does not support her, then in her position i would have quit, but has she complained to her superiors, or put in a complaint in writing is what i would be interested in. Upto now we have only one version of the events, which seems solely aimed at farang men, as if farangs are the only ones who do not repect marriage, which is far from true.

What has the victem done to protect her self form a further encounter's with the culprits. She needs to have them brought to book with official compalints through the comapnies complaint procedure. If the Farangs are working for farang companies they will take it seriously.

As with all stories there are always to sides.

[marstons]

Mscluless as a matter of principal i would have left the gathering if i had been so offeneded, and be subjected to sexual harresment. If it were a Western company they would have supported you. if not you would have still had your principlas or do you remain working for the the same company that put you in this position.

Why should the OP have to leave "the gathering" just because a few men were being obnoxious! Surely the men in question should have been forced to leave the party?

If its any consolation Ms Clueless - I'm a Western woman in her 50s and a few years ago felt sorry for a vet visiting for 2 weeks to help Soi Dogs. (I met him at a Soi Dog fund raiser and he told me how he hadn't seen the island at all as he spent all his time working at Soi Dogs).

Anyway, having enormous respect for the work he was doing, I told him I would hire a taxi to show him the island.

All was fine (although I did subconsciously think he was getting a touch 'too friendly' in the taxi) - until he bluntly came out and said "I find you v attractive, do you find me attractive?" - in a way that made it obvious he was asking me if I was up for sex.....

I was insulted that he assumed I was 'up for it' with a relative stranger, so sympathise that as an Asian woman you have it far worse!

totally agree they should have been made to leave but did she make anybody aware of what was happening. Would like to know from MsCluless what she has done post the vent by way of making others aware of what happened.

if its the Soi Dogs in BKK its run by a Western Female who would have i am sure taken issue with the pig that tried it on with you.

My point is if thses people are doing this they should be outed, other wise they will continue to behave in such a manor, i doubt he would have tried it on with an Indian or Malayasian lady so the Asian thing really means Thai.

Edited January 27, 2012 by marstons

[F1fanatic]

All was fine (although I did subconsciously think he was getting a touch 'too friendly' in the taxi) - until he bluntly came out and said "I find you v attractive, do you find me attractive?" - in a way that made it obvious he was asking me if I was up for sex.....

I was insulted that he assumed I was 'up for it' with a relative stranger, so sympathise that as an Asian woman you have it far worse!

Hi F1fanatic, I would like to ask you why you felt offended?

Can you please dissect your feeling and thoughts in that moment?

I'm really interested in knowing what your feelings were at that moment and I intend no offense whatsoever by asking you that question, I just want to understand how a woman feels in such a situation.

Because I'd not done anything to make him wonder if I was up for sex! I'd only done my best to show him a little of Phuket (as I deeply respected the work he was doing for Soi Dogs.

Despite what the Hollywood movies show, Western women are rarely interested in sex as soon as they meet a man.

I was offended as I could only assume he thought I was 'desperate'...

To be fair, as soon as I replied (I was a bit stunned by his comment!) - "Yes, of course I find you attractive, but I have too much 'baggage' to consider sex" - he made his excuses and left.

Why on earth would I 'report' him to anyone? Directed at Marstons. I may have been offended but, he was doing unpaid volunteer work for a good cause and didn't 'force himself' on me.

Edited January 27, 2012 by F1fanatic

[manarak]

I was offended as I could only assume he thought I was 'desperate'...

hmmmm.

That's a "I thought he thought I was thinking" explanation...

But I try to delve deeper into it - If you allow me, because I'm still puzzled.

I'm a rather non-emotional person, so there is no chance of offending me in any way in such a situation, and I'd like to find out about what mechanism precisely makes a woman offended in such a situation.

The feeling of being offended came from your perception that he was under the impression that offering sex to you was doing you a favor? (because he was assuming you are desperate?)

Or is there also an element of a feeling of not wanting to be his toy for his pleasure, i.e. the urge of not feeling inferior to him by doing his will?

Or is there a chance that he was desperate, and the thought of being offered by a desperate man is insulting, because it implies you are an option of last resort?

Another thought is what would have been your reaction if the proposal came just in a moment where you were feeling in need of sex?

We all have those moments where in any situation and for no reason we suddenly want sex - would your reaction be different in such a moment?

Edited January 27, 2012 by manarak

[sbk]

Wow, marston, you really need to get out more and meet women not on the internet, is all I can say to this. wow.

[tutsiwarrior]

back in the 80s after I split with the love of my life I tried dating/relationship columns in local newpapers around the SF area in California...I got so depressed with what I saw that I elected to stay at home and masturbate; too much emotional fragility to deal with and masturbating and thinking about my lost love was more satisfying anyway...until there was the mexican/hawaiiian escort girl at $200 a pop but I don't want to ever think about that...I actually thought that she liked me...