This might be something that is changing. I can think of at least 5 women in my direct circle of knowledge that have married or had kids with foreign men (in Australia). Probably more if i gave it thought. It is becoming increasingly common for younger generations.

The women were presumably Australian, where did their husbands originate?

The women were Australian, yes. Men from Kenya, Phillipines, Tonga, Hong Kong, Ireland. I guess there might be some New Zealand ones if i thought hard, but really, that is just a another state of Australia. probably some UK/Scottish/Welsh if i thought even harder, but that seems so common that it blends in.

It is not unusual for under 40's now. And certainly not for under 30's. Seems everyone who comes back from overseas in Australia would bring a partner back home with them. Maybe not all, but a lot.

Within bounds. I dont' necessarily see those bounds being kept.

I agree, I think the female perspectives here are biased & OTT... See ya!!!

Edited January 3, 201214 yr by WarpSpeed

No, I don't think that is the problem but rather, a woman comes on here about an issue, the men make it all about themselves and then tell the women what they should be thinking. Not all men do this of course, but it is rather common.

Totally agree, and l am a guy.

Agree with most and ad my 10 Satang worth:

Most men are "caught" ie pressured into marriage and thus are up for some action.... simple...

IMO this thread has taken a sad turn away from friendly banter about the OP topic of married men (who better to contirbute than a married man) to hositlity. I dont have the time to see where the hositlity generated but if the mods do maybe they can issue a warning. I'm done over and out.

Quite frankly this topic reminds me why I don't often come to the "Ladies" forum. It often digresses into one of these female / male things, which frankly I don't get. I don't see why the guys can't come on here and give their opinion; some of the viewpoints are a bit weird but some make sense. I think its fairly well known that some guys are politer than others but that goes for women too. There are quite a few fundamental differences between men and women (I know that's stating the obvious). But generally men don't tend to dissect and analyze everything into oblivion.

I really have to side with some of the guys , I don't see the need for hostility.

You are certainly welcome to contribute an opinion to the OP's post if you don't like to see it digress.

The OP does certainly show that all it takes for a woman to get lucky or cheat, is not say no.

But we already knew that.

“Owners of dogs will have noticed that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they will think you are god. Whereas owners of cats are compelled to realize that, if you provide them with food and water and shelter and affection, they draw the conclusion that they are gods.” - Christopher Hitchens

There must be a moral to that story.

Wow this thread has been keeping busy

And from what I'm reading (yep read all the posts!!) is the discussion has taken off on a few tangents.

All interesting of course. But it does raise some questions for me

The questions pop up after reading all posts at once, so questions are kinda lumped together and might not be directed at any one person in particular

Based on the general male response :

Even IF we accept the spread the genes theory it's built into our DNA etc etc

1. Do you not think some social norm and etiquette have to be observed? How many of you would walk up to a stranger not in a bar and say to her - let's go back to my cave and.... (fill in the blanks yourself I'm not crude enough to spell it)

I believe we are evolved creatures and even If the male (or female) natural instincts are strong, we would have learnt and been conditioned to what is acceptable behavior in what setting.

2. Yes I accept people have different lifestyles. Some are monogamous and very happy to remain that way. Some might not be. But what does become an issue is when it is done on the sly. I know some couples who are open to having a third person (on a once off or on a continuing/ repeated basis) but it's done with both parties agreeing to the arrangement. The being married, promising committed and exclusive relationship but later going behind their partner is what I think is unfair. Things don't remain a secret forever and the other partner get hurt. Why subject someone you claim to love to that kind of emotional abuse?

If you think you don't want to remain monogamous, don't get married to begin with.

3. Mens views are certainly welcome within the ladies sub forum too. But remember that forum rules apply here as does elsewhere. With perhaps an unwritten expectation that in addition to respect, politeness, there is also sensitivity. Suggesting a guy would come on to a woman maybe because of the way she is dressed not only shows lack of sensitivity, but is trying to shift the blame....if I can put it in the context of blame

Slightly off topic, but might explain why this last aspect gets my blood boiling. Some years ago I happen to have the chance to talk to (and try to asssist) a group of women who were victims of domestic violence. Most of them don't report the crime committed against them. Experience amongst the community is that when some had been brave enough to report it, the police would say things like:

what did you do to anger him

You should go home and make sure you cook a nice meal for his dinner

Or some similar words. They didn't take the offense seriously but went further to suggest the women must be at fault and must have done something to trigger it.

I think we are all adults. Male or female. The least we can do is take responsibility for our own action and not try to pin it on the other party.

So yes I do feel strongly about these types of stigmas that tend to place blame on women regardless of the reality.

In the case of the op, I don't read anywhere that she suggested or manipulated or coerced them to make sexual advances on her.

(and yes I got details of how things took place that evening from the op who tried to explain the situation in a bit more detail after reading a number of responses on the thread)

MsClueless

I can tell you why and more details in one situation I am familar with.

My GF's parents live in a gated community in Bangkok. In that community there is a British man that used to drive a taxi in the United Kingdom, he married a Thai Bargirl. He spend all his money buying a townhouse there, about 3 million baht. A British taxi driver is a good profession with what I understand to be well paid (just from what I read), but it is a lower class working man's job. What we here in the USA would call blue collar.

Now he is broke, and he is in Bangkok and his wife is in London and the community says she is working as a prostitute to earn money to support her children.

The Brit is depressed, lonely and likely furious.

The Brit knows my GF and her sister, Miss N. He invites himself into the parents house when Miss N is home alone. She is about 34, speaks no english. The Brit tried to get her into bed, she doesn't really know how to tell him to leave or how to tell him off, but nothing comes of it, he did leave.

However the Brit is now worried that the story will spread and he will get into trouble with his wife. So he preemptively spreads a rumor that Miss N tried to seduce him, natually Miss N is now very upset and worried that maybe someone will believe him.

Now my GF is angry, and talking to me about what she should do. She speaks pretty good english. She wants to go to the police, which I suggest would likely be a good idea, because the Brit is guilty of slander, and Thailand takes that pretty seriously.

She tells the Brit that is what she is going to do, he apologizes and stops trying to spread rumors, all parties retreat to a netural corner.

None of this was an excuse for poor behaviour by the farang, just telling you more details about the why of what happened with this married man.

the op wrote about being flirted with by married men from her work place, that is much different than being asked to sell her body.

Same attitude IMO; that every woman is up for it with any guy at any time simply because he's irresistable in his eyes. Shows a total lack of regard for other people or their feelings and a rather infantile selfishness IMO.

I don't see it that way.

It is a simple misunderstanding between men and women.

Many MEN are up for it anytime and with almost any woman. Because men like sex. easy.

Some women like sex without a relationship, but many don't, they like exclusive partners and feelings.

Of course rude and offensive people should just be told to <deleted> off, but for those which were polite and friendly enough, I wonder what the fuss is about?

As long as men remain tactful, I don't think men should change their behavior to comply with the ladies' idea of what is acceptable.

A polite refusal seems in order - what people do with their private life is their concern.

I believe we are evolved creatures and even If the male (or female) natural instincts are strong, we would have learnt and been conditioned to what is acceptable behavior in what setting.

Cultural conditioning overriding natural human behaviour.

One should look at the society that has conditioned them if this is the case, I'd guess it has very large religious roots, ie, the church, which has conditioned people in how to be un-human and suppress their natural humanity.

Yes, one should be aware of the setting though, and not go in to the business network meeting with your willy hanging out as you point to it.

Edited January 4, 201214 yr by hehehoho

http://www.thedailyb...eep-around.html

I suggest you read the entire article.

The last few paragraphs might be enlightening

http://www.thedailyb...eep-around.html

I suggest you read the entire article.

The last few paragraphs might be enlightening

sbk, thanks for posting the article, I thought it was an interesting read.

I always thought people continue to evolve genetically and behaviour isn't set in stone (age).

take care John

Of course you did not.

As others have said, women know very well the difference between casual/friendly offers, flirting (serious or otherwise) and vulgar propositions/demands/encroachments. Because we all of us have abundant experience with all of these.

Men obviously have not had the same life experiences women have, and I find that decent men often find it hard to believe that other men do the sorts of things they do, so in all l innocence they assume the woman must have "misunderstood" because they are imagining the men involved to be like themselves. Little do they know what sort of things some men do and how blatantly and crassly.

Outside of cross-cultural situations, women can often reduce the likelihood of being subject to offensive behavior by avoiding contexts and actions that might give the impression of easy availability. But unfortunately the whole of SE Asia and just being a SE Asian female is taken by some western men to qualify as such, so local women here -- the many who are not "on the prowl" for a western man -- do often suffer inappropriate treatment. ..very inappropriate.

My niece is a very attractive young SE Asian woman living in Thailand and cannot walk through upper Sukhumvit area unmolested no matter how conservatively dressed and even with friends/boyfriend with her. More than once she has had to call for help to literally pry off a foreign man groping and pawing her and insisting on knowing "how much". They assume she has to be available purely on the basis of her race -- and believe me she in no way looks or acts like a bar girl or prostitute. Of course, one understands that they have formed this impression based on the behavior of the Thai women they have the most contact with (bar girls and the like) but that is no excuse for generalizing this to the entire female population.

Put them in their place in no uncertain terms and walk off.

Sheryl you express yourself in a very cogent manner and I agree with everything you posted in that response. I didn't spend any time in Sukhumvit area, I only know a lot of expats and farangs are there. Not sure how many bars are located there, I was wondering if the area is more conducive to that sort of behaviour.

If I were to walk about nana, it gets annoying to have so many women telling me they go long term, even if I walk with a GF. Bali was even worse, the touts are like leeches.

I have always contended that unless I can walk in someone someone else's shoes, I can't really appreciate what they have to deal with.

take care, it looks like I am getting much more busy at work, I won't have much time if there is a response to my own post, but good luck to your niece.

The least we can do is take responsibility for our own action and not try to pin it on the other party.

WOW, that is not a concept that is NOT at all accepted in the USA or I am guessing much of Europe.

No one takes responsibility for their own actions, blame the victum, blame your DNA, blame bad parents, the list is endless of who is to blame.

Spill hot coffee on yourself, sue the provider to making it too hot, buy a house you can't afford by lying about your income, sue the bank for not checking your application, CEO of a crooked company, hey, I didn't know what was going on and I don't know how this company runs, I am just the CEO, no one tells me anything.

take care, ciao

http://www.thedailyb...eep-around.html

I suggest you read the entire article.

The last few paragraphs might be enlightening

I don't think the new genes will significantly change human sex drive, which is one of the strongest human instincts.

Nor do I think it would be a good thing, since the fertility rate is dropping in all developed countries as Peace Blondie points out.

In fact, Grammaton SBK, people should read the last 3 paragraphs:

Far from ceding anything, evolutionary psychologists have moved the battle from science, where they are on shaky ground, to ideology, where bluster and name-calling can be quite successful.

[...]

believing in evolutionary psychology is seen "as an indicator of conservatism, disagreeableness and selfishness."

Actually I did read the entire thing, doesn't negate the shaky scientific standing this theory has , check around, many evolutionary psychology ideas are disproven by real research.

I am a believer in evolution and I believe that people are evolving and are thoroughly capable of it. It seems stone age man would often kill strangers to the tribe. Don't see so much of that anymore, do you?

Actually I did read the entire thing, doesn't negate the shaky scientific standing this theory has , check around, many evolutionary psychology ideas are disproven by real research.

I am a believer in evolution and I believe that people are evolving and are thoroughly capable of it. It seems stone age man would often kill strangers to the tribe. Don't see so much of that anymore, do you?

Good point but alas some males are still in the stone age, still scratch their nuts in public etc, seen it and whinst, those are the ones that will never change eh..

I don't see it that way.

It is a simple misunderstanding between men and women.

Many MEN are up for it anytime and with almost any woman. Because men like sex. easy.

Some women like sex without a relationship, but many don't, they like exclusive partners and feelings.

Of course rude and offensive people should just be told to <deleted> off, but for those which were polite and friendly enough, I wonder what the fuss is about?

As long as men remain tactful, I don't think men should change their behavior to comply with the ladies' idea of what is acceptable.

A polite refusal seems in order - what people do with their private life is their concern.

I think it is more than a simple case of what ladies feel is appropriate

society as a whole has evolved.

there was a time when most humans didnt wear clothes. these days most of us do. even if some have the 'natural urge' as you put it, or preference to go about naked, most have learnt and been conditioned to distinguish what is and what is not appropriate behaviour.

in most societies - one learns it is ok to go top less (at least for a man) at the beach, but maybe not so appropriate at the office

perhaps going more to the 'basic' level - as human beings we crave food and drinks. in the old days I imagine if you see food sitting around, a fruit on a tree or whatever, you would simply grab it and eat/drink. in today's world - one knows it has ownership and we cant simply take it simply because its there.

by a similar token - if you say men have the urge to sleep with whoever, wherever - then fine go ahead and have those urges. but learn to restrict them to urges that you have within you...and only express it to the other party in an appropriate and generally acceptable situations.

acceptable situations will vary. and this is where our intelligence, manners and etiquettes come in when deciding what is appropriate. when in doubt, the accepted norm would be to refrain!

coming on to someone at the office environment - unless that office is a brothel - I would say is completely inappropriate. married or not. the married part just makes it worse.

you talk about what people do with their private lives. I am a supporter of freedom and free will and such, but remember, even according to the universally accepted human rights - an individual's right right to freedom ends at the point where it starts to encroach on the freedom of other people.

these men encroached msclueless's freedom to not be harrassed by strangers. strangers she is obligated to socialise with due to work demands. the level of interaction should be kept at a professional level.

MiG16, I think you are very one-sided in your opinion.

First let's reckon that about 20% of married couples first met at work (which means that the total number of relationships stemming from work environment is much higher, maybe as much as 50% - the workplace is known to be Cupidons' number one hunting ground - before this is torn out of context: I mean the little angels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupidon).

So no, offering a work colleague or a work acquaintance to meet privately is not "completely inappropriate" quite the opposite.

Then about harassment

Sure, the rude and obnoxious people need to be shown the door, there is no question about that.

The definition of tact is not to make other people feel uncomfortable.

I think the offers have to be made tactfully - the difference between harassment and a simple flirtatious proposal is whether the other person feels uncomfortable, and thus is a circular argument.

One way to solve the circular argument is to look at the receiving end:

Why should a woman feel uncomfortable with a proposal to meet privately for dinner if the proposal is made in a friendly and polite manner?

As much as the rude and obnoxious men are out of place in such environment, women who are unable to confidently deal with tactfully made proposals are also to some extent insufficiently prepared/educated to evolve in a modern, sexually liberated world.

these men encroached msclueless's freedom to not be harrassed by strangers. strangers she is obligated to socialise with due to work demands. the level of interaction should be kept at a professional level.

The rude and obnoxious ones yes.

But not those who were polite and friendly about offering to meet privately.

Your understanding of the Universal Human Rights is biased.

There is no such thing as a right to be left alone in a social environment.

Quite the opposite: Anyone has the right to politely propose, anyone has the right to politely decline.

If anyone gets offended by tactful proposals or refusals, better search for the cause within that person (bad manners/immaturity/insufficient education/sociopathy), don't blame it on the world.

Edited January 4, 201214 yr by manarak

Asking a woman you hardly know, or one you have only spoken to briefly, to bed is considered tactful?

And if I remember correctly the op said one of them was vulgar

If that's the case I shall remain a biased person

Asking a woman you hardly know, or one you have only spoken to briefly, to bed is considered tactful?

And if I remember correctly the op said one of them was vulgar

If that's the case I shall remain a biased person

asking to bed = not tactful

asking to meet privately for dinner or a drink = tactful

one of them != all of them

misbehavior by some is no reason to throw away the whole lot...

there are ways to be tactful and still make the proposal to meet. I don't know why this is so difficult.

I don't see it being difficult, I see miggie stating what is unacceptable and you agreeing its not.

Thankyou to MiG16 for try to understand me and to explain on my behalf better.

And thank you everyone that share your opinions. Even some of them I cannot understand. I think it is our cultural difference.

Eg what wallaby say. Yes I am more conservative than those from the west I think. So yes I think it offensive that these men ask even they don't know me and I did not flirt with them.

I didn't tell exact words they use because I find not appropriate and not polite to repeat. As I said before one was very rude and vulgar. Others yes ok they don't use vulgar words but still I find shocking because of implication. Even the one who is friendly. When I refuse his invitation he said something else that I cannot repeat here

Someone else say men want women all the time.

I give you another example and you explain to me why. When I use taxi in Bkk mostly drivers are men. Most of them talk to me. I reply quite friendly. Many time taxi journey is 40 minutes or one hour! Bad traffic! Why none of these taxi driver ever make suggestion to take me to bed? And why the men at this meeting even they talk to me less than 10 minutes but you think it's normal that they ask me to bed?

Someone say if I have problem with that my social skill is bad. Are you sure?

Seems to me the OP finds it offencive that someone dare ask.

I don't see it being difficult, I see miggie stating what is unacceptable and you agreeing its not.

Well, I agree on the rude harassment part, but he also states he "remains a biased person", which I interpret as a confirmation of his previous points, notably that flirts at the workplace are inappropriate, while sociological facts overwhelmingly disprove that.

No, I read that she believes vulgar proposals, especially in the workplace are totally inappropriate. I do not put words in her mouth to assume that she is applying that to all men. Nowhere do I see her say some men equals all men but apparently you do?

I don't see it being difficult, I see miggie stating what is unacceptable and you agreeing its not.

Well, I agree on the rude harassment part, but he also states he "remains a biased person", which I interpret as a confirmation of his previous points, notably that flirts at the workplace are inappropriate, while sociological facts overwhelmingly disprove that.

Nor do I see anything about workplace flirtation being entirely inappropriate.

coming on to someone at the office environment - unless that office is a brothel - I would say is completely inappropriate. married or not. the married part just makes it worse.

Perhaps English is not your first language but where I come from, mild flirtation does not equal coming on to someone.

And thank you everyone that share your opinions. Even some of them I cannot understand. I think it is our cultural difference.

Eg what wallaby say. Yes I am more conservative than those from the west I think. So yes I think it offensive that these men ask even they don't know me and I did not flirt with them.

I didn't tell exact words they use because I find not appropriate and not polite to repeat. As I said before one was very rude and vulgar. Others yes ok they don't use vulgar words but still I find shocking because of implication. Even the one who is friendly. When I refuse his invitation he said something else that I cannot repeat here

It seems you met men with bad manners that weren't tactful at all.

Not all men and not all farang men are like that.

Someone else say men want women all the time.

Yes, I said many (not all) men would be ready to have sex with a stranger. It's a fact.

But it doesn't mean men should not be tactful.

I give you another example and you explain to me why. When I use taxi in Bkk mostly drivers are men. Most of them talk to me. I reply quite friendly. Many time taxi journey is 40 minutes or one hour! Bad traffic! Why none of these taxi driver ever make suggestion to take me to bed? And why the men at this meeting even they talk to me less than 10 minutes but you think it's normal that they ask me to bed?

Asking someone directly to bed is bad manners regardless of the situation.

In the taxi setting, I think the difference in status is relevant and the fact that the taxi drivers are in a situation where they should provide a direct service to you as a customer, so it is not exactly a favorable situation, especially if we consider the drivers' usual lack of attractiveness, 555.

Maybe imagine a situation where you meet men who are more your peers than service providers.

For example at a company event, internal or with external vendors, clients or suppliers.

You have a nice chat with the sales manager of sector 43, he's attractive and asks you if you would like to meet him for dinner on Saturday...

Someone say if I have problem with that my social skill is bad. Are you sure?

Not sure at all.

You certainly have every right to be disgusted by the behavior of obnoxious men rudely asking you to bed.

But you shouldn't have a problem with polite and friendly men asking you out for a date, and who don't make a fuss about a refusal?

On the cultural aspects, I would like to add that not everyone is happily married. Also quite some couples have an open relationship but want to stay together. The marital status alone is not a sufficient criteria to judge people on their flirtatious behavior.

Nor do I see anything about workplace flirtation being entirely inappropriate.

Thank you, we are in agreement about that.

coming on to someone at the office environment - unless that office is a brothel - I would say is completely inappropriate. married or not. the married part just makes it worse.

Perhaps English is not your first language but where I come from, mild flirtation does not equal coming on to someone.

touché, I'm not a native English speaker, it is my third language.

but well, I checked my friend google, and according to http://www.chacha.co...someone%27-mean

"coming on to someone" means:

It means that they are "hitting on" or flirting with you. They are interested and want to see what the interest in return is.

I fail to see how this automatically involves vulgarity or rudeness, but the expression is very vague and I guess it can be understood in quite different ways.

Edited January 4, 201214 yr by manarak