Commission claims American abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan

[News_Editor]

Commission claims American abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan

2012-01-09 00:17:39 GMT+7 (ICT)

BAGRAM, AFGHANISTAN (BNO NEWS) -- American forces have 'abused and tortured' numerous prisoners at Afghanistan's main prison, a commission set up by Afghan President Hamid Karzai claimed on Sunday.

The abuse allegedly occurred at the Bagram prison, officially known as the Parwan Detention Center, which is located in Bagram, a small town in Parwan Province, about 60 kilometers (37 miles) north of the capital Kabul.

It is not the first time that abuse claims have been brought up against U.S. forces in connection with their actions at the prison, which has been run by U.S. forces since the fall of the Taliban in 2001.

In 2005, the New York Times obtained a report by Amnesty International which claimed that the administration of former U.S. President George W. Bush allowed 'atrocious' human-rights violations, and that the United States was encouraging abuse worldwide. The report named several incidents worldwide, including some at Bagram.

Among the new claims by a commission headed by Gul Rahman Qazi, and set-up by President Karzai, are that American forces beat prisoners, exposed them to extreme conditions and performed humiliating cavity searches. Other claims said prisoners were denied legal counsel and even tortured with gas.

Qazi noted that although there is no clear evidence of abuse on the bodies of prisoners, they heard graphic claims from a number of different inmates. One specific claim came from a 72-year-old man who said he had been held in a pitch-black room and lost a tooth after being punched, according to the BBC.

A spokesman for the United States embassy in Kabul told the BBC that they take the allegations very seriously. "We take seriously and investigate all allegations of detainee abuse," the spokesperson was quoted as saying.

Amid these new claims of abuse, Karzai has called on U.S. forces to hand over control of the prison to Afghan forces within 30 days.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2012-01-09

[koheesti]

While I don't condone prisoner abuse, this is a joke.

None of us will live to see that day that an Afghan gov't appointed commission releases a report about the mistreatment of Afghans by Afghan prison guards. Nor will we see that in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc. They torture their own in horribly inhumane ways but they know you can criticize a Western run country for turning the lights out too early and we will freak. They are laughing at us behind out backs. I was talking about torture once with a Pakistani co-worker and when water-boarding came up he almost fell to the ground laughing.

[flying]

While I don't condone prisoner abuse, this is a joke.

None of us will live to see that day that an Afghan gov't appointed commission releases a report about the mistreatment of Afghans by Afghan prison guards. Nor will we see that in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

That may be true but........as often is the case..... Many of us in the USA do not want to compare/justify our actions by the lowest common denominator.

Also as the article notes this is not the first time & others have reported the same....Even members of our own troops/guards.

Many remember as one of the first disappointments of the current President of the USA....His failure to release the photos of abuse in Gitmo prison.

His claim that it would incite greater hatred against American Troops. Yet many of us saw the leaked photos & did not like what we saw.

Again I am not saying others in other countries do not perform such acts.....I am saying we should not & those that do so in our name/ in our service should be punished for their deeds.

Edited January 8, 2012 by flying

[koheesti]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

[Colin Yai]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

Both your posts are absolutely spot on ,I just wonder how any American prisoners are treated if they are unlucky enough to fall into Taliban hands?, I am well aware that two wrongs do not make a right ,but for anyone to vigorously Complain on the treatment of the taliban and their murderous associates by the US is quite frankly laughable .

[TAWP]

Treat prisoners how you want - but then don't complain when others do it.

Kinda like, executing people for water boarding your troops and then use water boarding yourself.

The high horse is lost. The government forced it to commit suicide.

[nurofiend]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

Both your posts are absolutely spot on ,I just wonder how any American prisoners are treated if they are unlucky enough to fall into Taliban hands?, I am well aware that two wrongs do not make a right ,but for anyone to vigorously Complain on the treatment of the taliban and their murderous associates by the US is quite frankly laughable .

though it is fair to complain on the treament of innocent people by the US in these places, and there is no denying that it has happened, as it has been proven.

[Exsexyman]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

No you wern't, you were pointing out that the torture of prisoners by American troops was a joke, something that obviously caused you great amusement. Whatever turns you on!

[koheesti]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

No you wern't, you were pointing out that the torture of prisoners by American troops was a joke, something that obviously caused you great amusement. Whatever turns you on!

No, the joke is the Afghans appointing a commission to look into any mistreatment.

[koheesti]

Treat prisoners how you want - but then don't complain when others do it.

Kinda like, executing people for water boarding your troops and then use water boarding yourself.

This assumes all mistreatment is the same - and it is not. Putting panties on someone's head is not the same as chopping off arms.

[geriatrickid]

Karzai is not credible.

This man is a couple cards short of playing with a full deck.

[Pakboong]

What we allowed the South Vietnamese do to the Viet Cong and NVA will forever sway my opinion on such matters. A typical method would be for one of a group of POWs to be pushed out of a rotary wing aircraft some several hundred feet above the ground as a method to get information from the rest of the group. I guess that would be murder instead of torture. I am not even sure it was that effective because individuals will tell you anything under such conditions. Needless to say, there was no homecoming celebration for a couple of hundred thousand POWs.

Unless we have gained a great deal of morality since 1970, the allegations are likely true.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Pakboong

[bonobo]

While I don't condone prisoner abuse, this is a joke.

None of us will live to see that day that an Afghan gov't appointed commission releases a report about the mistreatment of Afghans by Afghan prison guards. Nor will we see that in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

That may be true but........as often is the case..... Many of us in the USA do not want to compare/justify our actions by the lowest common denominator.

Also as the article notes this is not the first time & others have reported the same....Even members of our own troops/guards.

Many remember as one of the first disappointments of the current President of the USA....His failure to release the photos of abuse in Gitmo prison.

His claim that it would incite greater hatred against American Troops. Yet many of us saw the leaked photos & did not like what we saw.

Again I am not saying others in other countries do not perform such acts.....I am saying we should not & those that do so in our name/ in our service should be punished for their deeds.

I have not been to any Afghan prisons, but I did spend time at Abu Ghraib, and I can assure you that most of what went on there was quite overblown in the media and by other governments. Yes, there were some stupid acts of humiliation, but hardly the human rights violations which deserved punishments up to and including execution.

Body cavity searches? Yes, just like in the US to US prisoners. Isolation? Yes. "Torture with gas" and denial of legal counsel? Nope, not in my observation.

[Wallaby]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

No you wern't, you were pointing out that the torture of prisoners by American troops was a joke, something that obviously caused you great amusement. Whatever turns you on!

No, the joke is the Afghans appointing a commission to look into any mistreatment.

The difference being an occupying force torturing prisoners. Admittedly it makes no difference to the prisoner as to who does the torturing but it makes a lot of difference to who is actually doing it. One can't go claiming the high moral ground whilst doing the same thing you accuse others of doing.

[Wallaby]

While I don't condone prisoner abuse, this is a joke.

None of us will live to see that day that an Afghan gov't appointed commission releases a report about the mistreatment of Afghans by Afghan prison guards. Nor will we see that in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

That may be true but........as often is the case..... Many of us in the USA do not want to compare/justify our actions by the lowest common denominator.

Also as the article notes this is not the first time & others have reported the same....Even members of our own troops/guards.

Many remember as one of the first disappointments of the current President of the USA....His failure to release the photos of abuse in Gitmo prison.

His claim that it would incite greater hatred against American Troops. Yet many of us saw the leaked photos & did not like what we saw.

Again I am not saying others in other countries do not perform such acts.....I am saying we should not & those that do so in our name/ in our service should be punished for their deeds.

I have not been to any Afghan prisons, but I did spend time at Abu Ghraib, and I can assure you that most of what went on there was quite overblown in the media and by other governments. Yes, there were some stupid acts of humiliation, but hardly the human rights violations which deserved punishments up to and including execution.

Body cavity searches? Yes, just like in the US to US prisoners. Isolation? Yes. "Torture with gas" and denial of legal counsel? Nope, not in my observation.

With all due respect to your time serving your country, I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

The Australian Bar Association and the Australian Lawyers for Human Rights accuse the Federal Government of failing Mr Hicks and Mr Habib, who have been held captive for the last nine months without charge or access to lawyers.

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/online/Australians_GuantanamoBay.htm

The chronology section makes for some good reading for those interested.

[Ulysses G.]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

[JUDAS]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

I consider bonobo to be an excellent poster on TV. I would not argue with his statement as it comes from first hand experience but, he's not talking about Afghan prisons!

[geriatrickid]

I consider bonobo to be an excellent poster on TV. I would not argue with his statement as it comes from first hand experience but, he's not talking about Afghan prisons!

I will, because there has been one major public inquiry in respect to the conduct of some coalition forces. The Canadian forces were accused of aiding and abetting torture, in large part because they had a policy of handing over prisoners to the Afghanis. The inquiry ripped some flesh off the government and military commanders because of their reluctance to maintain prisons. They didn't want the prisons because they knew that the accusations" of mistreatment and other legal issues would arise. They had learnt from the Somalia detention issue (which had resulted in the dissolution of the elite airborne regiment due to the allegations). When the Afghanis wouldn't or couldn't take the prisoners, they were usually dumped on the Americans. Other countries did this as well. Some of the prisoners were just too dangerous and only the US forces had the detention facilities and the appropriate trained personnel to detain such people.

There are two sides to this story and if one digs one will find out that the Afghanis may have been the ones doing the abuse and that the prisoners most likely were hard core that set out to provoke and confront the US personnel.

Thats not to say that incidents of abuse didn't happen. However, based upon past stories I wouldn't be surprised if the people implicated were National Guards that had jobs in the US prison system. Almost all of the past serious allegations relate to this segment of the forces. Aside from giving an indication of what's working in the US prison system, I doubt full time personnel would have engaged in such activity.

[koheesti]

I am simply pointing out the fact that they don't have commissions to look into their own abuse of their own citizens - prisoners or not.

No you wern't, you were pointing out that the torture of prisoners by American troops was a joke, something that obviously caused you great amusement. Whatever turns you on!

No, the joke is the Afghans appointing a commission to look into any mistreatment.

The difference being an occupying force torturing prisoners. Admittedly it makes no difference to the prisoner as to who does the torturing but it makes a lot of difference to who is actually doing it. One can't go claiming the high moral ground whilst doing the same thing you accuse others of doing.

Hey, I have an idea. Let's let the Afghans take care of their own prisoners! All we need to do is make sure they have enough cargo containers to pack dozens of men into each and sit out in the desert sun with maybe a couple holes to let air in. Think of all the money that would save all around.

[nurofiend]

I consider bonobo to be an excellent poster on TV. I would not argue with his statement as it comes from first hand experience but, he's not talking about Afghan prisons!

I will, because there has been one major public inquiry in respect to the conduct of some coalition forces. The Canadian forces were accused of aiding and abetting torture, in large part because they had a policy of handing over prisoners to the Afghanis. The inquiry ripped some flesh off the government and military commanders because of their reluctance to maintain prisons. They didn't want the prisons because they knew that the accusations" of mistreatment and other legal issues would arise. They had learnt from the Somalia detention issue (which had resulted in the dissolution of the elite airborne regiment due to the allegations). When the Afghanis wouldn't or couldn't take the prisoners, they were usually dumped on the Americans. Other countries did this as well. Some of the prisoners were just too dangerous and only the US forces had the detention facilities and the appropriate trained personnel to detain such people.

There are two sides to this story and if one digs one will find out that the Afghanis may have been the ones doing the abuse and that the prisoners most likely were hard core that set out to provoke and confront the US personnel.

Thats not to say that incidents of abuse didn't happen. However, based upon past stories I wouldn't be surprised if the people implicated were National Guards that had jobs in the US prison system. Almost all of the past serious allegations relate to this segment of the forces. Aside from giving an indication of what's working in the US prison system, I doubt full time personnel would have engaged in such activity.

did you ever watch taxi to the dark side? it's worth a watch if you haven't.

[MikeOboe57]

American forces have 'abused and tortured' numerous prisoners at Afghanistan's main prison, a commission set up by Afghan President Hamid Karzai claimed on Sunday. [...] Qazi noted that although there is no clear evidence of abuse on the bodies of prisoners, they heard graphic claims from a number of different inmates.

So we have trumped up allegations without a single evidence. But this is no surprise to me. The more the Americans and ISAF talk about troop withdrawal, the more Karzai tries to distance himself from the very people that put him in power and have kept him alive and well ever since.

But as the Afghan government is eager to investigate alleged human rights abuses, can we assume that at least they have a clean record on that?

Read for yourselves

http://www.hrw.org/node/101504/section/1

[nurofiend]

American forces have 'abused and tortured' numerous prisoners at Afghanistan's main prison, a commission set up by Afghan President Hamid Karzai claimed on Sunday. [...] Qazi noted that although there is no clear evidence of abuse on the bodies of prisoners, they heard graphic claims from a number of different inmates.

So we have trumped up allegations without a single evidence. But this is no surprise to me. The more the Americans and ISAF talk about troop withdrawal, the more Karzai tries to distance himself from the very people that put him in power and have kept him alive and well ever since.

But as the Afghan government is eager to investigate alleged human rights abuses, can we assume that at least they have a clean record on that?

Read for yourselves

http://www.hrw.org/n...01504/section/1

i just wanna be clear because predictablly, people will see me as anti-american or whatever because i debate these things, i have no problem with american people... i'm just not a fan of some of their government and military policies and actions.

anyway my response is that this isn't about what the afghans did, this is about what the americans allegedely did in a US run prison in Afghanastan

and you're partly right, i'm sure the afghans committed acts just as bad if not worse, does that exonerate american wrongdoings? no, it makes no difference.

So we have trumped up allegations without a single evidence. But this is no surprise to me.

and this is where you're wrong, you might be surpsised when you see some evidence.

just a little example because someone mentioned serving in Abu Ghraib... well the americans admit, in writing - in black and white... to multiple homicides there.

it's in that film that i mentioned - taxi to the dark side

as is evidence of torture leading to and causing death in Bagram... so trumped up allegations.. sorry but that's just not correct.

here it is if you wish to give it a watch, annoyingly the audio is out of sync on youtube but you can find it to download very easily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWerXHS893U

Edited January 9, 2012 by nurofiend

[MikeOboe57]

Why don't we treat these allegations as it is standard in civilized countries?

The "innocent until proven guilty in court" rule apparently does not apply in AFG. Here it is automatically assumed that you are "guilty until proven innocent".

All this commission did was making unfound allegations and hoping something would stick. Instead of grovelling and promising an investigation we should tell them to forward evidence or shut up.

If we let them get away with this stunt, what will be next? Maybe something with women and children, like "ISAF is abducting young Afghan women to staff officers' brothels. We have no evidence but a lot of claims." Grovel and investigate!

If you had ever worked for the UN or international NGOs you would know that locals can come up with the most blatant and stupid lies, if someone tells them or they think that there is some money to be made from it.

[Wallaby]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

No, with respect to Bonobo, he has not seen how the prisoners are treated, he has seen how 'some' of them are treated. I'm sure he isn't covering anything up, he's simply stating what he has observed. I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I doubt very much he would be privvy to any requests by lawyers to the US administration to visit prisoners and I also doubt he was on duty 24/7 guarding all prisoners at the same time.

A normal person would think that any torturing would be kept between those that need to know and not every Tom Dick and Harry would be aware of such things. I'd be very surprised if they put out a TV Guide stating at 11pm is waterboarding in cell 209 followed by a quick electric shock session in cell 308.

If it wasn't for that person that had those photos of the abuses in Abu Graib and dobbed in the culprits then you would still have your head in the sand thinking there is no such thing as torture, unless it is by the Arabs, then it is a certainty.

In my view, when the years have passed then it will be common knowledge that there is a lot more torture than is being reported. GWB even admitted he ordered the torture of prisoners so I'd hardly think it would be the exception, more like the norm.

[Ulysses G.]

If it wasn't for that person that had those photos of the abuses in Abu Graib and dobbed in the culprits then you would still have your head in the sand thinking there is no such thing as torture, unless it is by the Arabs, then it is a certainty.

Wearing underwear on one's head while standing on a soapbox in not really "torture".

[maiphedmaiaroi]

While I don't condone prisoner abuse, this is a joke.

None of us will live to see that day that an Afghan gov't appointed commission releases a report about the mistreatment of Afghans by Afghan prison guards. Nor will we see that in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, etc.

That may be true but........as often is the case..... Many of us in the USA do not want to compare/justify our actions by the lowest common denominator.

Also as the article notes this is not the first time & others have reported the same....Even members of our own troops/guards.

Many remember as one of the first disappointments of the current President of the USA....His failure to release the photos of abuse in Gitmo prison.

His claim that it would incite greater hatred against American Troops. Yet many of us saw the leaked photos & did not like what we saw.

Again I am not saying others in other countries do not perform such acts.....I am saying we should not & those that do so in our name/ in our service should be punished for their deeds.

I have not been to any Afghan prisons, but I did spend time at Abu Ghraib, and I can assure you that most of what went on there was quite overblown in the media and by other governments. Yes, there were some stupid acts of humiliation, but hardly the human rights violations which deserved punishments up to and including execution.

Body cavity searches? Yes, just like in the US to US prisoners. Isolation? Yes. "Torture with gas" and denial of legal counsel? Nope, not in my observation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7S8Z-H6dRQ

[koheesti]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

No, with respect to Bonobo, he has not seen how the prisoners are treated, he has seen how 'some' of them are treated. I'm sure he isn't covering anything up, he's simply stating what he has observed. I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I doubt very much he would be privvy to any requests by lawyers to the US administration to visit prisoners and I also doubt he was on duty 24/7 guarding all prisoners at the same time.

A normal person would think that any torturing would be kept between those that need to know and not every Tom Dick and Harry would be aware of such things. I'd be very surprised if they put out a TV Guide stating at 11pm is waterboarding in cell 209 followed by a quick electric shock session in cell 308.

So, someone who has actually been there doesn't have insight into what is really going on but someone who gets their info from reading a blog or a forum like this does?

Edited January 10, 2012 by koheesti

[Wallaby]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

No, with respect to Bonobo, he has not seen how the prisoners are treated, he has seen how 'some' of them are treated. I'm sure he isn't covering anything up, he's simply stating what he has observed. I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I doubt very much he would be privvy to any requests by lawyers to the US administration to visit prisoners and I also doubt he was on duty 24/7 guarding all prisoners at the same time.

A normal person would think that any torturing would be kept between those that need to know and not every Tom Dick and Harry would be aware of such things. I'd be very surprised if they put out a TV Guide stating at 11pm is waterboarding in cell 209 followed by a quick electric shock session in cell 308.

So, someone who has actually been there doesn't have insight into what is really going on but someone who gets their info from reading a blog or a forum like this does?

So because Bonobo was there he knows everything that went on. Is that what you are saying.

So when the torture (the one with the videos and photos that everyone now knows about) was taking place every person working in that prison must have known about it because they were there. Doesn't say much for them if they knew and didn't report it. I hope everyone there at the time was charged and now is in jail.

It was admitted that most of the torture was actually done by interrogators, civilian interrogators and the CIA. I somehow doubt they sent out an event schedule to advertise what they were doing.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

[Credo]

Military personnel operate in a little bit different environment that a proper prison in a country not subjected to combat.

Prisoners are also not known for their honesty. I did some consulting work for a prison for a time. It's the largest gathering of innocent people I've ever run into.

[bonobo]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

No, with respect to Bonobo, he has not seen how the prisoners are treated, he has seen how 'some' of them are treated. I'm sure he isn't covering anything up, he's simply stating what he has observed. I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I doubt very much he would be privvy to any requests by lawyers to the US administration to visit prisoners and I also doubt he was on duty 24/7 guarding all prisoners at the same time.

A normal person would think that any torturing would be kept between those that need to know and not every Tom Dick and Harry would be aware of such things. I'd be very surprised if they put out a TV Guide stating at 11pm is waterboarding in cell 209 followed by a quick electric shock session in cell 308.

If it wasn't for that person that had those photos of the abuses in Abu Graib and dobbed in the culprits then you would still have your head in the sand thinking there is no such thing as torture, unless it is by the Arabs, then it is a certainty.

In my view, when the years have passed then it will be common knowledge that there is a lot more torture than is being reported. GWB even admitted he ordered the torture of prisoners so I'd hardly think it would be the exception, more like the norm.

For the record, I am against physical torture as defined by the Geneva Conventions. I am not against psychological manipulation such as trickery, sleep deprivation,and the like.

Now, having said that, if you read my post, I wrote that there were some stupid examples of humiliation which served no good and were primarily for the enjoyment of the unsupervised guards (who yes, were mostly national Guardsmen.) These were stupid acts, but they hardly fall under the guise of "torture." I have also seen the end results of real torture, such as a body with over 60 electric drill holed in it or a body with each and every arm and leg bone broken.

They do not equate. One is humiliation, one is torture. Neither is right, but jaywalking and murder are both crimes, neither being right as well. And equating the two is equally as dumb.

While Abu Ghraib was used initially for interrogations using methods I don't condone, by 2006, very little of that happened there. High-priority prisoners were taken elsewhere for additional treatment where harsh measures may or may not have been taken.

Abuses did happen there, most prior to 2006, and those abuses were a black eye on the military. But, as my original point was made, those abuses were quite overblown in both the US and Islamic press.