Conversion Of Retirement Visa To Visa For Working

[BangkokHank]

I am presently here in Thailand on a retirement visa. Lately I have been having the urge to work; specifically, to teach English. I know that it is not possible to teach on a retirement visa. So, if I find a teaching job, is it possible for me to "convert" my retirement visa to whatever visa is necessary to work here? Or do I have to leave the country, cancel my retirement visa, and reapply for the appropriate visa? Or is it somehow just not possible to go from a retirement visa to being able to work?

Also, what type of visa would I need in order to be able to stay in order to work? Is there a minimum number of hours per month that I would need to work in order to be able to get a work permit? Do all of these hours have to be at one place of employment?

And on a related issue: Why is it considered such a crime for a foreigner to work in Thailand? Is teaching people useful things really such a bad thing? After living in Thailand for 17 years, I resent the fact that I am still not able to work without jumping through numerous hoops. Perhaps it's time to move to Cambodia, the real "Land of the Free"?

Thanks for any input.

[Soutpeel]

As you have correctly stated you cant work on a retirement visa and in practical terms you would need to get another visa ie a Non-imm B or possibly a Non-imm "O" if married to a Thai national to be issued the WP.

As to why it is a crime if you work without a WP....?...because thats what the law says, this is no different to any other country in the world, if you are a Non-resident/Non citizen then you need a work permit or work visa to work in a particular country.

Show me any country in the world which doesnt require a WP/work visa or similar to go and work there if you are not a national/PR of that country

Based on my experiences working in various countries in the world, the Thai system is one of the easier one's provided you comply with the requirements.

FYI...Cambodia actually does have a work permit system similar to Thailand, only difference is that the system is not forced or implemented by the goverment, which doesnt mean they will not force this at some time in the future

[bapak]

If you are married to a Thai, you can change your Extension from Retirement..to Extention based on marriag, provided you meet the financial requirement. If you are then offered a job, then a Work Permit can be appled for.

The WP states specifically (employer/location)... With the consent of the first employer, you can also work for an other employer. i.e., in our school we have teachere who work in local government school and also work for us...

[lopburi3]

If retirement approved and not due for renewal believe it highly unlikely immigration would take kindly to such a conversion. If a normal renewal time and you can not show enough money for retirement is about the only time I have seen this accepted. And even then local labor may not provide work permit without change to a B visa from recent reports.

[bapak]

If retirement approved and not due for renewal believe it highly unlikely immigration would take kindly to such a conversion. If a normal renewal time and you can not show enough money for retirement is about the only time I have seen this accepted. And even then local labor may not provide work permit without change to a B visa from recent reports.

With respect, Lopburi, most likely different attitude at different Immigration Offices... I have personally been in involved in three such a changes in the last 4 months in Hua Hin. Sure, they do not encourage but it can be done. The instances that I mentioned were all so that they could work as a teacher.

[lopburi3]

That's good to know as we normally only see the disapproval's in such cases. I believe this is a new office in Hua Hin? Still have to overcome the recent non issue of work permit problems as some locations so may want to be sure on that first. Obviously it is not a problem in Hua Hin at this time.

[BangkokHank]

Thanks to all of you for your input, but I can't really say that I feel any more enlightened than before.

I am unmarried (therefore cannot take advantage of the marriage extension - which might have facilitated being able to get a work permit); and I live in Bangkok (rather than Hua Hin, where it seems to be possible to make this conversion). So I don't know what to think.

Also, my question was not "Why is it a crime to work without a work permit". It is clear to me that a work permit is required to teach English and that working without a work permit is illegal. I am just questioning the general attitude of Thai authorities that foreigners working in Thailand is somehow a bad thing and should be made as difficult as possible.

And Cambodia having a similar work permit regime to Thailand - but not enforcing it - makes it a totally different situation in practical terms. And while things might (and probably eventually will) change in Cambodia in the future, at least for now they are following an enlightened policy of freedom. Overall this is a benefit to the country - and might explain why the general level of English language knowledge in Cambodia is higher than the general level in Thailand - even though Thailand is leagues richer and more developed.

Now back to the issue at hand: A question for you, Lopburi 3: You said, "We normally only see disapprovals in such cases." I'm afraid I don't know who "we" refers to. Are you in the business of doing this sort of thing? And have you tried to do this for clients of yours in Bangkok - without success?

And the same question to you, Bapak: Are you in the business of helping people do this sort of thing? And you managed to do it successfully in Hua Hin - without your clients having to leave the country to get another type of visa? Or did they have to go to a Thai Embassy abroad and get a non-immigrant B visa?

Again thanks for any help.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks to all of you for your input, but I can't really say that I feel any more enlightened than before.

I am unmarried (therefore cannot take advantage of the marriage extension - which might have facilitated being able to get a work permit); and I live in Bangkok (rather than Hua Hin, where it seems to be possible to make this conversion). So I don't know what to think.

Also, my question was not "Why is it a crime to work without a work permit". It is clear to me that a work permit is required to teach English and that working without a work permit is illegal. I am just questioning the general attitude of Thai authorities that foreigners working in Thailand is somehow a bad thing and should be made as difficult as possible.

And Cambodia having a similar work permit regime to Thailand - but not enforcing it - makes it a totally different situation in practical terms. And while things might (and probably eventually will) change in Cambodia in the future, at least for now they are following an enlightened policy of freedom. Overall this is a benefit to the country - and might explain why the general level of English language knowledge in Cambodia is higher than the general level in Thailand - even though Thailand is leagues richer and more developed.

Now back to the issue at hand: A question for you, Lopburi 3: You said, "We normally only see disapprovals in such cases." I'm afraid I don't know who "we" refers to. Are you in the business of doing this sort of thing? And have you tried to do this for clients of yours in Bangkok - without success?

And the same question to you, Bapak: Are you in the business of helping people do this sort of thing? And you managed to do it successfully in Hua Hin - without your clients having to leave the country to get another type of visa? Or did they have to go to a Thai Embassy abroad and get a non-immigrant B visa?

Again thanks for any help.

Seeing as you are questioning the advice of posters on TV, why dont you cut out the middleman and get off your bum and go and ask immigration / labour department in BKK pretty sure they will answer your question very quickly, and also suspect they will tell you you need to leave the country and get a Non-imm B

As stated in a previous post, the system in Thailand is not made "as difficult as possible"....in comparision with other systems I have worked under in various places in the world, the Thai system is pretty straight forward and simple

As regards your comment regarding Cambodia, IMHO you are talking out your bottom, Cambodia doesnt have a policy of "enlightened freedom" to benefit the country....I am pretty sure you are aware of the history of Cambodia and the chaos in the country over many years, therefore their policies havent yet caught up with the rest of the world thats all, and as the Cambodia "advances" you will find a lot "restrictive" polices being put in place.

Further Khmer ability in English and other languges IMHO has absolutely nothing to do with any "elightened freedom" polices...I would be more to do with the colonial past of Cambodia and for the the most part Khmers want to learn English, unlike their Thai counterparts who believe the universe is centered in Thailand and why should they learn English....the rest of the world must learn Thai

[BangkokHank]

Seeing as you are questioning the advice of posters on TV, why dont you cut out the middleman and get off your bum and go and ask immigration / labour department in BKK pretty sure they will answer your question very quickly, and also suspect they will tell you you need to leave the country and get a Non-imm B

Actually this answers my question, which, in hindsight, I phrased suboptimally. I wanted to know if I would be able to go from being on a retirement visa to a Non-Immigrant B visa at all. I didn't necessarily expect it to be possible to "convert" my retirement visa into a visa for working by going to the Immigration office and having them do a conversion there, although it would be nice if it were that simple. I just wanted to know if it would be possible at all to "un-retire" and start working again. If all I need to do is to leave the country and get a Non-immigrant visa, then I would be willing to do that. And with that, my question is answered. Thanks.

As for questioning the advice of TV posters: Well, when I get two opposite answers to the same question, what else am I to do?

[bapak]

Thanks to all of you for your input, but I can't really say that I feel any more enlightened than before.

I am unmarried (therefore cannot take advantage of the marriage extension - which might have facilitated being able to get a work permit); and I live in Bangkok (rather than Hua Hin, where it seems to be possible to make this conversion). So I don't know what to think.

Also, my question was not "Why is it a crime to work without a work permit". It is clear to me that a work permit is required to teach English and that working without a work permit is illegal. I am just questioning the general attitude of Thai authorities that foreigners working in Thailand is somehow a bad thing and should be made as difficult as possible.

And Cambodia having a similar work permit regime to Thailand - but not enforcing it - makes it a totally different situation in practical terms. And while things might (and probably eventually will) change in Cambodia in the future, at least for now they are following an enlightened policy of freedom. Overall this is a benefit to the country - and might explain why the general level of English language knowledge in Cambodia is higher than the general level in Thailand - even though Thailand is leagues richer and more developed.

Now back to the issue at hand: A question for you, Lopburi 3: You said, "We normally only see disapprovals in such cases." I'm afraid I don't know who "we" refers to. Are you in the business of doing this sort of thing? And have you tried to do this for clients of yours in Bangkok - without success?

And the same question to you, Bapak: Are you in the business of helping people do this sort of thing? And you managed to do it successfully in Hua Hin - without your clients having to leave the country to get another type of visa? Or did they have to go to a Thai Embassy abroad and get a non-immigrant B visa?

Again thanks for any help.

We are an employer... not in the visa business.

[wayned]

I think that you received the answer you are looking for, yes, you can "un -retire" and work! It just depends how you do it.

But before you do it you really need to consider what you will be getting into. Have you ever taught school in Thailand? I have, and the only way that I can explain it is that it's and "unbelievable experience". If you haven't, you're in for a rude awakening.

[wpcoe]

Also, my question was not "Why is it a crime to work without a work permit". It is clear to me that a work permit is required to teach English and that working without a work permit is illegal. I am just questioning the general attitude of Thai authorities that foreigners working in Thailand is somehow a bad thing and should be made as difficult as possible.

As mentioned above, many (most?) countries have similar requirements.

But, to put it simply: Thailand wants to protect its citizens from unemployment by excluding foreigners from certain jobs, and then registering the remaining jobs via the work permit system. Why do you find that so onerous? It is what it is.

[BangkokHank]

As mentioned above, many (most?) countries have similar requirements.

But, to put it simply: Thailand wants to protect its citizens from unemployment by excluding foreigners from certain jobs, and then registering the remaining jobs via the work permit system. Why do you find that so onerous? It is what it is.

The fact that many countries do something doesn't make it sensible - or right.

One of the underpinnings of free market economics is a free movement of labor and capital. To a large extent the world has a free movement of capital. But for labor, things remain as restricted as ever. I maintain that people should have the right to go to whichever place in the world they think they can sell their labor / services for the most attractive terms. (What I don't approve of is subsidising such immigrants by giving them freebies paid for by other taxpayers, as is the case in the US and most of Europe.) The rule should simply be: You are welcome to come here and work - as long as you can find someone willing to hire you. But if you can't support yourself, don't expect to be supported by anyone else.

On a more practical level here and now in Thailand: Do you really think that Thai people are benefiting from making it so difficult and expensive for foreigners to teach English here in Thailand? Do you think excluding foreigners from teaching English will make Thai teachers more capable of doing the job? The fact is that it is difficult and expensive to get a work permit to teach English here. And to my knowledge, it is not possible to get a work permit for teaching part-time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) As has been discussed before, there are lots of educated English-speaking retirees here who would be interested in teaching English for a few hours a week. Do you really think that preventing us from teaching is helping Thailand?

[Soutpeel]

As mentioned above, many (most?) countries have similar requirements.

But, to put it simply: Thailand wants to protect its citizens from unemployment by excluding foreigners from certain jobs, and then registering the remaining jobs via the work permit system. Why do you find that so onerous? It is what it is.

The fact that many countries do something doesn't make it sensible - or right.

One of the underpinnings of free market economics is a free movement of labor and capital. To a large extent the world has a free movement of capital. But for labor, things remain as restricted as ever. I maintain that people should have the right to go to whichever place in the world they think they can sell their labor / services for the most attractive terms. (What I don't approve of is subsidising such immigrants by giving them freebies paid for by other taxpayers, as is the case in the US and most of Europe.) The rule should simply be: You are welcome to come here and work - as long as you can find someone willing to hire you. But if you can't support yourself, don't expect to be supported by anyone else.

On a more practical level here and now in Thailand: Do you really think that Thai people are benefiting from making it so difficult and expensive for foreigners to teach English here in Thailand? Do you think excluding foreigners from teaching English will make Thai teachers more capable of doing the job? The fact is that it is difficult and expensive to get a work permit to teach English here. And to my knowledge, it is not possible to get a work permit for teaching part-time. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) As has been discussed before, there are lots of educated English-speaking retirees here who would be interested in teaching English for a few hours a week. Do you really think that preventing us from teaching is helping Thailand?

A work permit/visa system makes perfect sense and of course its right.... ......these systems are put in place to protect nationals of a particular country, a typical example where they should invoke a more robust WP/Visa system is the UK, being in the EU has allowed nationals of many countries in the EU to enter the UK without restriction and taken jobs of British nationals, because they are prepared to work for peanuts. I would not have a problem with this if say the UK had a 0% unemploment rate and needed to bring people in to fill open positions, but this is not the case.

The "simple rule" you have stated is actually applied in Thailand as regards the WP policies....you are welcome to come here and work, provided someone is prepared to hire you and get you the required WP

As stated before, getting a WP for Thailand is neither expensive or difficult in comparision with some of the countries I have worked in.

In the specific case of English teachers, I dont believe there are active polices in place to "exclude" foreigners, in fact becoming an "English" teachers is one of the easiest avenues to follow, if someone wants to stay here for a significant amount of time.

As for being on a retirement visa and now wanting to work, on a retirement visa you are prohited from working, you should know this from the T&C's of your visa, which you agreed to when you signed the form.

You were granted a visa on the basis of retirement, now you want to change the reason, i.e. work....hence you would need to get a new visa and a WP, because you have changed the reason for being here.....it's not rocket science, and in most cases you will be required to leave the country to go and get the correct visa.

[bobl]

Heh... Such a kerfuffle over a simple question...

The simple answer is yes, you can "unretire". I don't know of a way to do it without requiring you to leave the country.

You will probably have to get a non immigrant B. If you already have a job offer, you will need a boatload of paperwork from your potential employer and a trip to a neighbouring country. You'll get a 90 day visa which can be converted in-country to a 1 year extension. You should also be able to get a non immigrant B without having a job offer - entering for "business" purposes with a view to looking for employment. This is also perfectly legal.

I wouldn't feel comfortable advising which consulate to get this done. Especially the business visa without having a job offer. If it was me, I'd go to my home country - but only because I haven't come across anybody with reliable information on whether a minimal paperwork, 1 year business visa would likely be granted in one of the neighbouring countries...

[Soutpeel]

Heh... Such a kerfuffle over a simple question...

The question was answered very early on in this thread, but OP seems to have jumped on his soapbox, rattling on about free market ecomonics, the system he is too difficult and perception that foreigner nationals are being exlcuded from teaching...