French parliament adopts controversial Armenian genocide bill

[News_Editor]

French parliament adopts controversial Armenian genocide bill

2012-01-24 08:59:45 GMT+7 (ICT)

PARIS (BNO NEWS) -- The French Senate on Monday adopted a controversial bill that makes it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks during World War I. The bill now goes to President Nicolas Sarkozy for his signature.

Following more than seven hours of intense debate, a majority of 127 senators voted in favor of the bill, which sets a prison sentence of up to one year and a fine of 45,000 euros ($58,000) for those who deny or 'outrageously minimize' the 'genocide' of Armenians by the Ottoman government during World War I. It also criminalizes other genocides recognized by France.

In late December, France's National Assembly already voted overwhelmingly in favor of the bill, prompting an angry response from Turkey which does not agree with the term genocide. Monday's Senate vote means the bill will now go to the desk of Sarkozy, who is expected to sign it into law.

Hundreds of people protested outside Luxembourg Palace in Paris, the seat of the French Senate, on Monday to protest against the bill which is set to trigger a new diplomatic showdown. The Turkish Foreign Ministry earlier warned of severe consequences and the Turkish embassy in Paris said damage to relations between the two countries could be permanent.

Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian, meanwhile, welcomed the vote. "This day will be written in gold not only in the history of friendship between the Armenian and French peoples, but also in the annals of the history of the protection of human rights worldwide, and will further consolidate the existing mechanisms of prevention of crimes against humanity," Nalbandian said. "France re-affirmed its pivotal role as a genuine defender of universal human values."

When the National Assembly approved the bill last month, Turkey reacted with outrage and immediately suspended all economic, political and military meetings with France. Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip ErdoÄŸan also said Ankara would cancel permission for French military planes to land and warships to dock in Turkey.

Besides Turkey, others have also expressed concern about the bill. "I believe that the final adoption of these legal amendments would raise serious concerns with regard to international standards of freedom of expression," Dunja Mijatović, the Representative on Freedom of the Media at the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), said in December.

Mijatović said the French bill could also have international effects. "It could set a precedent internationally for politically construed, ad-hoc criminalization of public debates," she said. "Criminalization of debates on history's true course, even of obviously false and offensive statements about a nation's tragic moment, is not conducive to a better understanding among people, communities and authorities of OSCE participating States."

Mijatović further said she fears the passing of this law by a nation with a 'great history of press freedom' might prompt other countries in the OSCE region to follow France's example and similarly criminalize historical statements in violation of their OSCE commitments which aim at encouraging free discussion on issues of public interest.

"A proliferation of national prohibitions on particular statements related to the culture and history of different nations and regions would render international free-speech standards inapplicable and subordinate them to a plethora of fragmented national strategies on regulation of speech and expression," she added.

It is estimated that between 600,000 and 1.5 million people of the Armenian population were killed by the Ottoman Empire between 1915 and 1923, but Turkey has refused to use the word 'genocide' to describe the events. Numerous countries have officially recognized the Armenian Genocide, including France.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2012-01-24

[GentlemanJim]

This could get interesting now. Turkey will undoubtedly start imposing sanctions on France. I am not sure what kind of sanctions, can anyone hazard a guess? but one that strikes me immediately would be a ban on French military aircraft in Turkish airspace. Turkey is strategically placed for military aircraft in transit to various places in the region. Perhaps the removal of concessions for the new Renault plant built in Turkey? There is also a huge chemicals import/export arrangement between Turkey and France. I don't think Turkey will back down on this one.

[KKvampire]

What is the point of this? Why pass a law to outlaw a denial of some act? It's just politics, havent the French Politicians got more important things to do for their country. Their economy will be going down the tubes with the Euro currency crash and they play politics . Stupid people

[Credo]

The Turks are particularly sensitive to this issue. It has long been a political football and gets tossed around in different countries.

Do the politicians have something else to do? Probably. Will they? Probably not.

[Steely Dan]

Yes, with a large and problematic immigrant population every right wing government will understandably play politics, however I do find Turkey's reaction more of interest. Already Erdogan threatened to deport any ethnic Armenians in Turkey if he was asked about the genocide. Then we have a statue on the Turkey-Armenia border which was supposed to represent reconciliation which was taken down on the express instructions of Erdogan. In other words there is certainly a reluctance to accept any responsibility for past actions so perhaps France has a point, though I doubt Obama will be interested in following suit, yet another fib to go with the many.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/01/french-senate-passes-armenian-genocide-law.html

The French Senate passed a genocide law. The bill makes it a criminal offence to deny that Turks committed genocide against Armenians. I don't believe in criminalizing free speech but I do believe in the recognition of the islamic genocide against the Armenian Christians. Denying Islamic annihilationism is a crime against humanity.

[geriatrickid]

Turkey can only lose in this fight. France is a member of the EU and Turkey is not. If Turkey tries to punish France by way of a trade war, the EU will respond. Greece is having a good chuckle and all of the European nations that resisted the entry of Turkey into the EU are probably going, see, we told you Turkey was a loose cannon.

Turkey will blow some hot air, but it's not as if they are in a position to retaliate. It has the Islamophobic Russians on one side, its regional competitor Iran on the other, long term irritant Greek on another. a potential refugee crisis looming on its Syrian and Lebanese borders and the Romanians and Bulgarians that hold a grudge from 1000 years ago on another border.

[GentlemanJim]

Turkey can only lose in this fight. France is a member of the EU and Turkey is not. If Turkey tries to punish France by way of a trade war, the EU will respond. Greece is having a good chuckle and all of the European nations that resisted the entry of Turkey into the EU are probably going, see, we told you Turkey was a loose cannon.

Turkey will blow some hot air, but it's not as if they are in a position to retaliate. It has the Islamophobic Russians on one side, its regional competitor Iran on the other, long term irritant Greek on another. a potential refugee crisis looming on its Syrian and Lebanese borders and the Romanians and Bulgarians that hold a grudge from 1000 years ago on another border.

All very sounds points. The only ace they hold though is that they are a vital strategic member of NATO, and military operations out in that area would be very difficult without use of Turkish airspace and soil.

[Steely Dan]

Turkey will blow some hot air, but it's not as if they are in a position to retaliate. It has the Islamophobic Russians on one side, its regional competitor Iran on the other, long term irritant Greek on another. a potential refugee crisis looming on its Syrian and Lebanese borders and the Romanians and Bulgarians that hold a grudge from 1000 years ago on another border.

It makes Turkey's 'No problems with neighbours' policy all the more amusing.

[kropotkin]

1. 
   What is the point of this? Why pass a law to outlaw a denial of some act? It's just politics, havent the French Politicians got more important things to do for their country. Their economy will be going down the tubes with the Euro currency crash and they play politics . Stupid people
   

   
   The Turks are particularly sensitive to this issue. It has long been a political football and gets tossed around in different countries.
   Do the politicians have something else to do? Probably. Will they? Probably not.
   

To the armenians this holocaust is no less than the other holocaust is to the jews.

Do you advocate no legal repercussions for people denying these 2 holocausts?

[Credo]

I certainly am not arguing the genocide at all. Only the politics behind it and only the Turkish thinking on the matter.

For reasons which I don't fully understand, they are extremely sensitive about an event that happened quite sometime ago. I spent some time in Turkey and when this topic came up, most Turks got unusually upset.

[GentlemanJim]

1. 
   What is the point of this? Why pass a law to outlaw a denial of some act? It's just politics, havent the French Politicians got more important things to do for their country. Their economy will be going down the tubes with the Euro currency crash and they play politics . Stupid people
   

   
   The Turks are particularly sensitive to this issue. It has long been a political football and gets tossed around in different countries.
   Do the politicians have something else to do? Probably. Will they? Probably not.
   

To the armenians this holocaust is no less than the other holocaust is to the jews.

Do you advocate no legal repercussions for people denying these 2 holocausts?

Lets be really honest here, the concept of making it a criminal offence for denying anything is up there at the top of the rules list in the lunatics asylum. If somebody wants to deny any of the holocausts then let them and tell them you feel sorry for them. How difficult does it need to be? The only need to criminalize these issues is to gain political favour with any of the respective countries involved. It is total madness to make denial a criminal offence. There are many many things that can be said that cause public offence but why is Holocaust denial any different. Frankly if you were going to make any comment by people a criminal offence then I would start with all of the filth spouted out by the Westboro Baptist Church. If what they say can't get you a criminal charge then why should this type of denial/comment?

Edited January 24, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[KKvampire]

Turkey can only lose in this fight. France is a member of the EU and Turkey is not. If Turkey tries to punish France by way of a trade war, the EU will respond. Greece is having a good chuckle and all of the European nations that resisted the entry of Turkey into the EU are probably going, see, we told you Turkey was a loose cannon.

Turkey will blow some hot air, but it's not as if they are in a position to retaliate. It has the Islamophobic Russians on one side, its regional competitor Iran on the other, long term irritant Greek on another. a potential refugee crisis looming on its Syrian and Lebanese borders and the Romanians and Bulgarians that hold a grudge from 1000 years ago on another border.

Fight? It;s France who looks for fight. And what the EU does is anyones guess. But it's not exactly in a position of strength, A failed fake Union

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been deleted.

[GentlemanJim]

What is amazing me about the Turkish reaction, whilst I watch their PM rant and rant about this in his Parliamentary speech is that whilst he is crying foul and that the decision by the French is against free speech, people have been jailed in Turkey for affirming the Holocaust! The Turks have no leg to stand on by establishing a double standard.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. Discussion of the 2012 US presidential elections is totally off topic to this discussion.

[Steely Dan]

What is amazing me about the Turkish reaction, whilst I watch their PM rant and rant about this in his Parliamentary speech is that whilst he is crying foul and that the decision by the French is against free speech, people have been jailed in Turkey for affirming the Holocaust! The Turks have no leg to stand on by establishing a double standard.

Actually, if there was a quid pro quo and free speech applied to all then I would have much more sympathy for the Turkish position, however there has been a definite trend where western notions of free speech and expression have come under attack from religious zealots both within and without - we should know better than to pander to these one sided demands. To paraphrase Voltaire - I don't agree with what the man said, but I'd die for his right to say it.

[Pakboong]

It is funny how this kind of stuff can raise an awareness of this event where there have previously been very little. Many history buffs will now dig into the history of this event in an effort to shoot holes one way or the other. It is simply sport for many. They will argue that all history needs to be reviewed I personally agree in principle that it should but there are many who don't.

Many people who consider themselves to be anti-semites for example, cut their teeth on the Jewish Holocaust. The vast majority had little or no opinion prior to laws being passed. I don't think this particular matter is any way similar but for me, it is just plain asking for a lot of trouble. Another law that must be enforced and with no additional capability to actually do the job. Unless of course, there are a bunch of French enforcers who were hired to manage denying the Jewish Holocaust laws, who now could end up with work to do instead of sitting around on their hands.

[RickBradford]

Lets be really honest here, the concept of making it a criminal offence for denying anything is up there at the top of the rules list in the lunatics asylum. If somebody wants to deny any of the holocausts then let them and tell them you feel sorry for them. How difficult does it need to be? The only need to criminalize these issues is to gain political favour with any of the respective countries involved. It is total madness to make denial a criminal offence. There are many many things that can be said that cause public offence but why is Holocaust denial any different

Making 'denial' of some event a criminal offence is simply idiotic 'progressive' politics at play; the rule is that you can say what you like, but only if you agree with us.

What do they think is going to happen -- Madame Dubois stands up in the Toulouse marketplace, waving a courgette and yelling: "I deny the Armenian genocide!"

But perhaps in this case, France is sending out a strong message about Turkey's EU ambitions, a stance which will be applauded by Greece, Austria, Sarkozy's native Hungary, and other South East European states.

[chuckd]

There is this today from the Hurriyet Daily News of Turkey...

_____________________________________________________

Sub Categories: » HOMEPAGE / WORLD/ EUROPE Thursday,January 26 2012, Your time is 11:04:23

One in five young Germans unaware of Auschwitz: poll

One in five young Germans has no idea that Auschwitz was a Nazi death camp, a poll released Wednesday showed, two days ahead of Holocaust memorial day.

Although 90 percent of those asked did know it was a concentration camp, the poll for Thursday's edition of Stern news magazine revealed that Auschwitz meant nothing to 21 percent of 18-29 year olds.

And nearly a third of the 1,002 people questioned last Thursday and Friday for the poll were unaware that Auschwitz was in today's Poland.

Article here: http://www.hurriyetd...7&NewsCatID=351

[Scott]

So much for the accusation of ignorance toward American and Thai students.

[geriatrickid]

Lets be really honest here, the concept of making it a criminal offence for denying anything is up there at the top of the rules list in the lunatics asylum. If somebody wants to deny any of the holocausts then let them and tell them you feel sorry for them. How difficult does it need to be? The only need to criminalize these issues is to gain political favour with any of the respective countries involved. It is total madness to make denial a criminal offence. There are many many things that can be said that cause public offence but why is Holocaust denial any different

Making 'denial' of some event a criminal offence is simply idiotic 'progressive' politics at play; the rule is that you can say what you like, but only if you agree with us.

What do they think is going to happen -- Madame Dubois stands up in the Toulouse marketplace, waving a courgette and yelling: "I deny the Armenian genocide!"

But perhaps in this case, France is sending out a strong message about Turkey's EU ambitions, a stance which will be applauded by Greece, Austria, Sarkozy's native Hungary, and other South East European states.

The worry is not Mme. Dubois. Rather it is groups who under the guise of freedom of speech lay out their creeping, crawling program of denial and then vilification. One need only look at how the neo nazi groups operate. First they post "jokes" on their websites, and then they start with their denial arguments. Theirs isn't about an academic argument, but is one of continuing a campaign of hate. What many non Armenians do not appreciate is that the Armenian community has been subject to a long campaign of marginalization that shares many of the characteristics of the neo nazi campaigns. Deny the genocide and one does not have to deal with a community that has been around for centuries. Nor should one forget that the fate of the Armenians is closely tied to the ethnic cleansing the Greeks community of Turkey suffered. Many have heard of the Russian pogroms, but how many are aware of the Istanbul pogroms against Greek Christians? The fight to protect the Armenians isn't just about the Armenians, but is also an attempt to prevent further persecution of the beleagured and persecuted ethnic Greek population in Turkey. Their historic buildings some of which include architectural treasures like ancient Churches suffer neglect and intentional damage. Taking a stand on behalf of the Armenians is an indirect way of saying to Turkey's persecuted Christian and Kurdish minorties, we won't let another genocide happen again.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Scott
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