Women'S Video From Khao San Road?

[mzThai]

Hello all,

I recently found a video on youtube comprised of western tourists on Khao San talking about their feelings on sex tourism in Thailand, and how they felt about Falang men who come to Thailand looking for Thai women.

Now, I'm an expat woman, and I've lived in Thailand for five years...I've really made my peace with the whole "sex tourism" issue, and decided that it's not really my problem. I do realize, however, that when I first arrived in the country I felt the same repulsion these women mentioned.

So: I was wondering about the expat women on this forum: have your attitudes about the whole "Thai-Falang" sex/love industry changed at all since living here?

FYI: The video is called " Western Women on Khao San Road Speak Out About Thailand's Sex Tourists" and it's on Youtube

[sbk]

I have many western male tourist friends who find it apalling including one friend who is in his early 60s. In addition most of my younger customers (men and women) aren;t so thrilled by it either. Many Thais I know dislike it as well. So, regardless of what some men on this forum would have you think, its not universally just western women.

Me personally, as long as they are two consenting adults well aware of what they are doing, who am I to care?

[submaniac]

You know, so I watched the video that was being referred to. I was surprised frankly. I thought that they would come down harder than they did. In other words, I thought that there would be more thoughts along the lines of Western men being scummy sexpats. Especially since they were interviewing basically tourists on Khao San. The interviewees appear to be those who are on short term vacations and going home soon, not the long termers on this boad, who are more familiar with the realities of life in LOS.

The interviewees were (and I was surprised) fairly understanding. One woman said that Western men need love too. Then she goes on to say that the Western men coming toThailand are desparate. I think even tourists recognize the dynamics involved. That there are very lonely men, and that there are very economically vulnerable women. Relationships can be created for a variety of reasons, including relationships of convenience. As Ms. SBK says, two consenting adults well aware of what they are doing. It's not my place to judge anyone either.

[F1fanatic]

You know, so I watched the video that was being referred to. I was surprised frankly. I thought that they would come down harder than they did. In other words, I thought that there would be more thoughts along the lines of Western men being scummy sexpats. Especially since they were interviewing basically tourists on Khao San. The interviewees appear to be those who are on short term vacations and going home soon, not the long termers on this boad, who are more familiar with the realities of life in LOS.

The interviewees were (and I was surprised) fairly understanding. One woman said that Western men need love too. Then she goes on to say that the Western men coming toThailand are desparate. I think even tourists recognize the dynamics involved. That there are very lonely men, and that there are very economically vulnerable women. Relationships can be created for a variety of reasons, including relationships of convenience. As Ms. SBK says, two consenting adults well aware of what they are doing. It's not my place to judge anyone either.

Except... the 'relationship' is often not honest. "Love you too much" etc. Many Western men believe it !

Funnily enough, when I was a tourist I felt sorry for the young, attractive women on the arm of an old, unattractive man. Now though, I think they deserve each other.

I'm the opposite to the OP, as my attitudes have hardened so that I have no time for them at all.

But, its all down to one's own experiences.

[pxlgirl]

I do not care what guys do in their spare time, as long as it's mutual, however, the fact that some things kinda become a stigma for a whole country and its women in particular is annoying.

[californiabeachboy]

I enjoyed watching the video, but I think it confuses two different things. The headline talks about "sex tourism" but she ask the question in terms of finding "romance" or "love".

I know of two couples in Thailand where the man is considerably older than the woman, but from my observations there is real affection there, and it is not just about sex. I see nothing wrong with that (in fact as an old Western man I embrace it!).

But pure sex tourism (i.e. prostitution) is completely different. Many say consenting adults can do what they want, but when it comes to sex toursim, there is not real consent by the woman. These women are often put in a postiion, either as a result of their own financial needs, pressure to earn money for the family, lack of alternatives. etc. to do these things. While it may be consenting at that particular moment, I don't believe it is real consent.

[jajohnson]

Many say consenting adults can do what they want, but when it comes to sex toursim, there is not real consent by the woman. These women are often put in a postiion, either as a result of their own financial needs, pressure to earn money for the family, lack of alternatives. etc. to do these things. While it may be consenting at that particular moment, I don't believe it is real consent.

Some times but not always. How many of these girls are on the game because they like the money? They want the latest phone or new clothes or gamble?

I'm with the others on this one. Forced prostituion is horrible but otherwise, if you have two consenting adults, what they do is up to them and if money changes hands, so be it. Acceptance and tolerance is the Buddhist way, who are we to judge? It's not that long ago that financial security was an important criteria when looking for a husband, it's just a slightly different payment schedule

[inquisitive]

...

But pure sex tourism (i.e. prostitution) is completely different. Many say consenting adults can do what they want, but when it comes to sex toursim, there is not real consent by the woman. These women are often put in a postiion, either as a result of their own financial needs, pressure to earn money for the family, lack of alternatives. etc. to do these things. While it may be consenting at that particular moment, I don't believe it is real consent.

I have to agree with the general sentiment of this comment, but at the same time I think it doesn't give quite enough weight to two important points. For one thing, I know of a LARGE group of women that cosider prostitution a high-paying part-time job. They are all university students that would like a newer mobile than Daddy gave them or want to buy even larger piles of imported cosmetics to compete with their girlfriends. Right or wrong, moral or not, they certainly would not be seen by most people as coerced into prostitution.

Which brings up the second point: almost every single person this Earth is coerced by financial circumstances to perform physical acts they would otherwise avoid. I have a brother who is forced by financial circumstances to actually repatedly shove his fingers into the orifices of adults and even children as young as twelve. He does thsi because his other choices are even worse and without his income as an orthodontist he would simply starve. Is he a kind of prostitute? Well, by some definitions he would be. Is he any better or worse than the ladies who "go with men" for money? You decide. How many people do you know that would go to work every day if it wasn't for the money? Would you say they were all coerced with the same degree of outrage as people feel when they discuss the streetwalker who gave up her factory job to earn a year's salary in a month for doing something not so far different from what she used to do on the weekends for fun?

My point is not that anyone should go out and fing a NGO to rescue my brother, nor that thay should not have compassion for women in the sex industry. It is only that we shouldn't always feel that a lady selling sex should automatically be pitied or need protection. Heck, some of them have made a decision to make more money than medical specialists without having to invest all that work, money, and twenty years of education to get into the game. Surely many of the women working in the industry are deservant of our pity, help, and protection, but at least here in Thailand you can be sure that not all of them fit into that category.

[fletchsmile]

The biggest difference between tourists on Khao San road and people living here is that the former usually have a very shallow understanding of Thailand. They see only thru the eyes of their own value systems and how they were brought up, combined with limited time in a rather artificial holiday environment.

They don't see that foreign sex tourism industry is a drop in the ocean compared to prostitution and exploitation throughout Thailand created by Thais exploiting Thais, and not just in the sex industry either. For many of the girls, because of the way Thai society is, it represents one of the very few ways that they (and/or their families) might actually escape the socio-political situation that gives them very little chance of advancement otherwise. Sure they might be able to make their poverty a little better with other "normal" jobs, but they're unlikely to offer a real move or escape from Thailand's hierarchy and cycles of poverty. Unfortunately it's a very high risk business in many ways, and while the "rewards" of "success" may be high the risks mentally and physically are too.

There's a whole spectrum of sex-tourists in Thailand, with many shades of gray, and the word sexpat isn't as interchangeable with word sex tourist as many people do. In terms of attitude: Tourists often scrape the surface with preconceived ideas and stereotypes.

Western female expats understand better than tourists, and can put in a Thai context, although rarely have the same first hand experience as guys and naturally channel their energies into their own lives and relationships, as OP highlights well.

Thais don't like Thailand to be seen how it really is, and dislike even more people openly showing or talking about how things really are. While obviously most Thai women are not prostitutes, that Thailand has this stereotype and image is something that Thais would do well to firstly admit, and secondly think honestly and openly about why, and only after these first two steps would they have any chance of changing that image and stereotype.

I'd say that it's often the western male expat who most truthfully sees the whole situation for what it is in all its complexities and contexts, and has perhaps the most rounded understanding and also knows not something you're adequately going to cover in a few minutes video if you're realistic

Edited March 27, 2012 by fletchsmile

[sbk]

I'd say that it's often the western male expat who most truthfully sees the whole situation for what it is in all its complexities and contexts, and has perhaps the most rounded understanding and also knows not something you're adequately going to cover in a few minutes video if you're realistic

read the forum much fletch?? I'd say that isn't necessarily true at all considering some of the posts I see.

[fletchsmile]

I'd say that it's often the western male expat who most truthfully sees the whole situation for what it is in all its complexities and contexts, and has perhaps the most rounded understanding and also knows not something you're adequately going to cover in a few minutes video if you're realistic

read the forum much fletch?? I'd say that isn't necessarily true at all considering some of the posts I see.

hehe some truth in that. Then again understanding a situation and acting rationally don't always go hand in hand - particularly where guys and sex are involved.

[ExpatJ]

I have many western male tourist friends who find it apalling including one friend who is in his early 60s. In addition most of my younger customers (men and women) aren;t so thrilled by it either. Many Thais I know dislike it as well. So, regardless of what some men on this forum would have you think, its not universally just western women.

Me personally, as long as they are two consenting adults well aware of what they are doing, who am I to care?

Hi Sbk- I think they may be telling you what you want to hear. I know several expats who use hookers, but when it comes up in conversation and they are with their wives/gfs/colleagues/friends they are smart enough to make the right noises e.g. saying how horrible and yukky it is, how sad it is etc. This goes doubly so for Thai's.

[sbk]

I have many western male tourist friends who find it apalling including one friend who is in his early 60s. In addition most of my younger customers (men and women) aren;t so thrilled by it either. Many Thais I know dislike it as well. So, regardless of what some men on this forum would have you think, its not universally just western women.

Me personally, as long as they are two consenting adults well aware of what they are doing, who am I to care?

Hi Sbk- I think they may be telling you what you want to hear. I know several expats who use hookers, but when it comes up in conversation and they are with their wives/gfs/colleagues/friends they are smart enough to make the right noises e.g. saying how horrible and yukky it is, how sad it is etc. This goes doubly so for Thai's.

I am sure dozens of foreigners and literally hundreds of thais are all lying.

[ExpatJ]

Sbk- not all of them, but a good number are i am afraid to say. Think about it, can u think of a single guy among your group of friends or co workers who said he uses hookers? It's just not the done thing to admit it.

[sbk]

I've been listening to people for 20 years. Pretty sure I've heard the truth more than a few times during that period.

I think that alot of people on this forum tend to take their own experiences as gospel truth and anything anyone else says as just being wrong.

So, yes, I am sure SOME of them are lying, but to be honest, no I am pretty sure that not all or even most are and I am also quite sure that most the Thais I know who are opposed to bar girls are not lying. We all inhabit different worlds and just because many of the men you know may lie about this, this does not make it a universal truth nor does it make mine either, But then I am not the one trying to tell someone else what they have experienced.

[ExpatJ]

I've been listening to people for 20 years. Pretty sure I've heard the truth more than a few times during that period.

I think that alot of people on this forum tend to take their own experiences as gospel truth and anything anyone else says as just being wrong.

So, yes, I am sure SOME of them are lying, but to be honest, no I am pretty sure that not all or even most are and I am also quite sure that most the Thais I know who are opposed to bar girls are not lying. We all inhabit different worlds and just because many of the men you know may lie about this, this does not make it a universal truth nor does it make mine either, But then I am not the one trying to tell someone else what they have experienced.

Well said- though one thing i have noticed is that use of hookers is universal among groups (though not among all men obviously)- whether its the right on Oxfam worker who goes for a sneaky oil massage with that 'unintended' happy ending, the executive who uses high class escorts, the teacher/ O&G/tourist who gets a gogo bar take away etc. My point is that hooker users inhabit all worlds- yours and mine.

Edited April 10, 2012 by ExpatJ

[californiabeachboy]

Many say consenting adults can do what they want, but when it comes to sex toursim, there is not real consent by the woman. These women are often put in a postiion, either as a result of their own financial needs, pressure to earn money for the family, lack of alternatives. etc. to do these things. While it may be consenting at that particular moment, I don't believe it is real consent.

Some times but not always. How many of these girls are on the game because they like the money? They want the latest phone or new clothes or gamble?

I'm with the others on this one. Forced prostituion is horrible but otherwise, if you have two consenting adults, what they do is up to them and if money changes hands, so be it. Acceptance and tolerance is the Buddhist way, who are we to judge? It's not that long ago that financial security was an important criteria when looking for a husband, it's just a slightly different payment schedule

Yes, I agree that if it is consent freely given, it is up to them.

But what if the mother says to the pretty young daughter, you need to go to Bangkok and earn some money "for the future of the family". And she does it, is that consent?

[eek]

For the most part it seems men prefer to go along with the "girl isnt forced, does it because she likes the job and money" scenario, whilst women go with "coerced, no other option, poor girl being taken advantage of" scenario.

Both options may be the case, and much in between. But, in all honesty, if a woman (or man) was given the option of earning the same kind of money doing a more "regular" kind of job, im pretty convinced most would take the regular job over being paid for sex. Also male mentality can often easily compartmentalize sex, women less so. Women who prostitute themselves usually do end up affected mentally (a sweeping generalization granted. Please dont get on soap boxes and ask me to provide proof..its easy to find if googled).

(and that old chestnut of "we end up paying one way or another" is eyeball rolling tbh..)

No one can surely deny that a woman would prefer a life with a good man, a good home, and a good role within it (working or keeping house, etc). What average woman would choose being a hooker over that..?

We can justify anything we desire. Be it eating meat, taking drugs, buying that overpriced pair of shoes, unnecessary gadget, buying sex..etc etc etc. Whether or not it is reality.

[ExpatJ]

For the most part it seems men prefer to go along with the "girl isnt forced, does it because she likes the job and money" scenario, whilst women go with "coerced, no other option, poor girl being taken advantage of" scenario.

Both options may be the case, and much in between. But, in all honesty, if a woman (or man) was given the option of earning the same kind of money doing a more "regular" kind of job, im pretty convinced most would take the regular job over being paid for sex. Also male mentality can often easily compartmentalize sex, women less so. Women who prostitute themselves usually do end up affected mentally (a sweeping generalization granted. Please dont get on soap boxes and ask me to provide proof..its easy to find if googled).

(and that old chestnut of "we end up paying one way or another" is eyeball rolling tbh..)

No one can surely deny that a woman would prefer a life with a good man, a good home, and a good role within it (working or keeping house, etc). What average woman would choose being a hooker over that..?

We can justify anything we desire. Be it eating meat, taking drugs, buying that overpriced pair of shoes, unnecessary gadget, buying sex..etc etc etc. Whether or not it is reality.

Well at the end of the day its an option for the women- in Thailand they have other opportunities to make money through a 'regular' job, though it would likely pay less.

But in any case, i was struck by Charlie Sheen's take on this issue when it was revealed he uses hookers- he said he is not paying for sex, he is paying for the lady to leave after sex.

Edited April 11, 2012 by ExpatJ