Cheap Steel Could Cause Collapses: Thailand

[witsawakorn]

Thailand,the Somalia of Asia.

Have you ever been to Somalia? What a worthless comment!!

[witsawakorn]

People complain about building inspectors... until the smelly stuff hits the fan.

The rebar I've seen going into foundations has been a joke. I can't keep from commenting everytime I see bundles of the scrawny stuff.

They have building inspectors here? None ever dropped by to inspect any of my projects. I can't comment on the quality of the steel but I've sure seen lots of smooth rebar going where it should be ribbed.

Really? You have stood by and watched the wrong steel going in the hole in your own projects. I hope you didn't kill anyone. Good projects in Thailand have quality ensured by the Owner's Engineers or Contractor's staff. Why do people from the West expect some government employee to come along and take care of everything for them. Most of the projects that I have worked on here have been built in Industrial Estates and every one has been inspected during construction by IEAT Engineers but quality and safety are always ensured by the Owner's Engineers and Contractors

[Chopperboy]

Thais have no understanding of steel -.LEK is LEK right?

It takes a mountain of effort to persuade them of the differences between normal steels and high strength steels.

There is over 3500 types of commercially produced steel available. Rebar in Thailand is measured as SD30 or SD40 which is around the strength of normal structural mild steel i.e. 400 Mpa. A cranes boom could be 900Mpa and pre-stressed wires used in concrete 1860Mpa.

Thai buildings typically use less then 10% of the minimum steel requirements for BS standards.

So factor in steel thats below standard and an EVENT occurring and Er good luck!!

[Vorranuch]

The technical part of the article makes no sense. You can make very good steel bars from scrap metals. Actually most small to medium size steel mills are electric arc furnaces, which use scrap metals as the only raw material. Steel quality depends on quality of the scraps and process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc_furnace

Advantages of electric arc furnace for steelmaking

The use of EAFs allows steel to be made from a 100% scrap metal feedstock, commonly known as "cold ferrous feed" to emphasise the fact that for an EAF, scrap is a regulated feed material. The primary benefit of this is the large reduction in specific energy (energy per unit weight) required to produce the steel. Another benefit is flexibility: while blast furnaces cannot vary their production by much and are never stopped, EAFs can be rapidly started and stopped, allowing the steel mill to vary production according to demand. During the peak of global meltdown in 2009, an estimated quantity of only 1 million tonne was produced in USA employing EAF technique. Although steelmaking arc furnaces generally use scrap steel as their primary feedstock, if hot metal from a blast furnace or direct-reduced iron is available economically, these can also be used as furnace feed.

A typical steelmaking arc furnace is the source of steel for a mini-mill, which may make bars or strip product. Mini-mills can be sited relatively near to the markets for steel products, and the transport requirements are less than for an integrated mill, which would commonly be sited near a harbour for access to shipping.

[cloudhopper]

People complain about building inspectors... until the smelly stuff hits the fan.

The rebar I've seen going into foundations has been a joke. I can't keep from commenting everytime I see bundles of the scrawny stuff.

They have building inspectors here? None ever dropped by to inspect any of my projects. I can't comment on the quality of the steel but I've sure seen lots of smooth rebar going where it should be ribbed.

Really? You have stood by and watched the wrong steel going in the hole in your own projects. I hope you didn't kill anyone. Good projects in Thailand have quality ensured by the Owner's Engineers or Contractor's staff. Why do people from the West expect some government employee to come along and take care of everything for them. Most of the projects that I have worked on here have been built in Industrial Estates and every one has been inspected during construction by IEAT Engineers but quality and safety are always ensured by the Owner's Engineers and Contractors

No not my projects, and I didn't kill anyone or expect anyone from the incompetent and corrupt government to care of everything for me either.

Methinks thee protesteth too much...

[Soutpeel]

The technical part of the article makes no sense. You can make very good steel bars from scrap metals. Actually most small to medium size steel mills are electric arc furnaces, which use scrap metals as the only raw material. Steel quality depends on quality of the scraps and process.

http://en.wikipedia....ric_arc_furnace

Advantages of electric arc furnace for steelmaking

The use of EAFs allows steel to be made from a 100% scrap metal feedstock, commonly known as "cold ferrous feed" to emphasise the fact that for an EAF, scrap is a regulated feed material. The primary benefit of this is the large reduction in specific energy (energy per unit weight) required to produce the steel. Another benefit is flexibility: while blast furnaces cannot vary their production by much and are never stopped, EAFs can be rapidly started and stopped, allowing the steel mill to vary production according to demand. During the peak of global meltdown in 2009, an estimated quantity of only 1 million tonne was produced in USA employing EAF technique. Although steelmaking arc furnaces generally use scrap steel as their primary feedstock, if hot metal from a blast furnace or direct-reduced iron is available economically, these can also be used as furnace feed.

A typical steelmaking arc furnace is the source of steel for a mini-mill, which may make bars or strip product. Mini-mills can be sited relatively near to the markets for steel products, and the transport requirements are less than for an integrated mill, which would commonly be sited near a harbour for access to shipping.

Slights bits of mis-information in this..

A blast furnace is never used to produce steel....its used to produce pig iron, a constiutent of steel.....steel is made typically in an electric arc furnace...pig iron + scrap iron + other alloying elements such as manganese, silicon etc to define the properties of steel....typically pig iron has a 4-6% carbon content and cant really be used for any usable product as its too brittle because of the carbon

[MEL1]

Hope that no sub-standard steel was used in building dams !

Hilarious!

-mel.

[skorchio]

This stinks of removal of competition. Thai mills have banded together, had a whiparound, made a large payment, and the Taiwanese is shutdown and going home. His mill will be bought at knockdown price, as it no longer has a license to operate, and the Thai mill consortium will then have a shootout deciding who gets the asset. Sounds plausible or have I been here too long?

[Soutpeel]

This stinks of removal of competition. Thai mills have banded together, had a whiparound, made a large payment, and the Taiwanese is shutdown and going home. His mill will be bought at knockdown price, as it no longer has a license to operate, and the Thai mill consortium will then have a shootout deciding who gets the asset. Sounds plausible or have I been here too long?

Bingo..give the man a cigar

[Chopperboy]

This stinks of removal of competition. Thai mills have banded together, had a whiparound, made a large payment, and the Taiwanese is shutdown and going home. His mill will be bought at knockdown price, as it no longer has a license to operate, and the Thai mill consortium will then have a shootout deciding who gets the asset. Sounds plausible or have I been here too long?

I am seeing lots of Tata steel on the market at competitive prices these days. It could be the Thai mills are getting more competition from the big guys and are looking to remove competition wherever they can.

[DPGumbypgh]

A few incorrect posts here. Pig iron is never converted to steel in an Electric Arc Furnace (EAF). You have to blow oxygen into it to burn off the carbon to make it into steel. Direct reduced Iron can be used as a feedstock for a EAF because it is already low in carbon and other impurities. Almost 100% of rebar is produced from EAF using scrap steel in USA. Selection of scrap is important to produce better quality steel. It costs very little more to produce better quality steel so to produce substandard steel makes no economic sense. They must have been selling steel rebar that failed chemical specifications instead of remelting it to produce better quality.

Much more than 1 million tons was produced in the USA in 2009 by EAF process. Probably around 35 million or more, but also other products were made bolts, wire, etc.

[wintermute]

This stinks of removal of competition. Thai mills have banded together, had a whiparound, made a large payment, and the Taiwanese is shutdown and going home. His mill will be bought at knockdown price, as it no longer has a license to operate, and the Thai mill consortium will then have a shootout deciding who gets the asset. Sounds plausible or have I been here too long?

Welcome to the Thai business world. It all looks good on paper and might be profitable for a few years until you are actually too competitive for the local moguls to stomach then it's time to wave the flag and shut you down for various anti-foreigner/competitive reasons.

[bbradsby]

All conspiracy theories aside, I'm going to assume the DSI was right, the plant was producing substandard steel, and this is very bad news indeed from a life safety standpoint. I imagine their records of sales could tell some stories, but never will see light of day lest some developers be damaged financially when they have to buy back the properties, and buildings demolished. Not bloody likely.

[noitom]

This stinks of removal of competition. Thai mills have banded together, had a whiparound, made a large payment, and the Taiwanese is shutdown and going home. His mill will be bought at knockdown price, as it no longer has a license to operate, and the Thai mill consortium will then have a shootout deciding who gets the asset. Sounds plausible or have I been here too long?

Yes, the big steel cartel ordered a "removal" as you characterized it. Seems like the Taiwanese is packing up and hitting the road peacefully. He's had his run - he played by Thai rules and knew the game when he started. He may think it's an early removal, but the Thai cartel has the final say. The cartel will now absorb his customer base. The ones who "prefer" cheaper product and substandard, inferior, and dangerous quality.

[ralphlsasser]

The only thing considered noteworthy about this article is that Mr. Lor failed to sufficiently pay his tea money to the satisfaction of the pigs up top.

[haveaniceday]

CloudHopper Said : I've sure seen lots of smooth rebar going where it should be ribbed.

I am just curious as to why it does make a difference?

That was one thing our builder didn't give a arse about, but the lady int he shop selling it was concerned enough to call wifie and let her know. Things were delayed about 2 days till more was delivered, I was a stuburn pig about it, but didn't really know why !!!!

Just trying to learn.

[thunder30101]

Ribbed rebar creates more surface area for the cement to bond to, it also helps to keep the concrete from separating or shearing from the cement causing failure of the structure in case of movement (earthquake) Personally I would never use smooth rebar but this is thailand.

[Rosco911]

"100 tonnes of steel rods - 133,600 in total and worth Bt27 million"

By my poor mathamatical reckoning skills.....do we think there is some over valuing of this stock going, I stand to be corrected..but wouldnt this be around US$ 8k/tonne ?

in comparaison with a few numbers pulled up on the internet --

Hot Rolled Steel Coil – $694 per tonne

Hot Rolled Steel Plate – $808 per tonne

Cold Rolled Steel Coil – $789 per tonne

Steel Wire Rod – $683 per tonne

Medium Steel Sections – $795 per tonne

Based on this,Thailand seems to produce some of the most expensive steel in the world !!!

Our company manufactures recycling and baling machinery in Thailand, the average prices of new steel varies from 40 THB per kilogram to 50 THB for RSC, RSA and flat bar. Plate in 2240 x 1220 (8' x 4' ) can increase to 80 THB per kilo around the 50mm to 100mm thick. Based on the weight stated the true figure would be around 5.35 million. 27 Million is complete rubbish.

[Rosco911]

"100 tonnes of steel rods - 133,600 in total and worth Bt27 million"

By my poor mathamatical reckoning skills.....do we think there is some over valuing of this stock going, I stand to be corrected..but wouldnt this be around US$ 8k/tonne ?

in comparaison with a few numbers pulled up on the internet --

Hot Rolled Steel Coil – $694 per tonne

Hot Rolled Steel Plate – $808 per tonne

Cold Rolled Steel Coil – $789 per tonne

Steel Wire Rod – $683 per tonne

Medium Steel Sections – $795 per tonne

Based on this,Thailand seems to produce some of the most expensive steel in the world !!!

Our company manufactures recycling and baling machinery in Thailand, the average prices of new steel varies from 40 THB per kilogram to 50 THB for RSC, RSA and flat bar. Plate in 2240 x 1220 (8' x 4' ) can increase to 80 THB per kilo around the 50mm to 100mm thick. Based on the weight stated the true figure would be around 5.35 million. 27 Million is complete rubbish.

[sparebox2]

Think green.

Think recycle.

What is wrong with my thinking?

Next they will arrest Coca-colar for using re-cycle bottles.

[Soutpeel]

Next they will arrest Coca-colar for using re-cycle bottles.

I am sure this would occur to them if it was a Taiwanese guy was running the factory in competion with the local producers

[HerbalEd]

This is the worst kind of greed and evil ... with no concern for the death and destruction that a collapsed building, bridge, etc. can cause. Often, when they find such as this in China the culprits get the death sentence. A few years back the head of China's FDA was caught in corruption and he got a bullet to the head as punishment. Now that's a great deterrent.

[wxyz]

Looks like somebody didn't pay the increased BIB tea money.

Edited February 9, 2012 by wxyz

[Payboy]

Time to limit foreign investment in the steel industry.

[xthAi76s]

This is the worst kind of greed and evil ... with no concern for the death and destruction that a collapsed building, bridge, etc. can cause. Often, when they find such as this in China the culprits get the death sentence. A few years back the head of China's FDA was caught in corruption and he got a bullet to the head as punishment. Now that's a great deterrent.

And, here, if anyone is ever found guilty, they just pay a bribe (sorry, I mean fine) and continue business (perhaps under a different business name). I can't think of another "recently industrialized" country where there is really no punishment for such egregious actions. 'mai pen rai'

[z12]

This is the worst kind of greed and evil ... with no concern for the death and destruction that a collapsed building, bridge, etc. can cause. Often, when they find such as this in China the culprits get the death sentence. A few years back the head of China's FDA was caught in corruption and he got a bullet to the head as punishment. Now that's a great deterrent.

And, here, if anyone is ever found guilty, they just pay a bribe (sorry, I mean fine) and continue business (perhaps under a different business name). I can't think of another "recently industrialized" country where there is really no punishment for such egregious actions. 'mai pen rai'

Keep smiling LOS

Edited February 11, 2012 by z12

[osiboy]

People complain about building inspectors... until the smelly stuff hits the fan.

The rebar I've seen going into foundations has been a joke. I can't keep from commenting everytime I see bundles of the scrawny stuff.

They have building inspectors here? None ever dropped by to inspect any of my projects. I can't comment on the quality of the steel but I've sure seen lots of smooth rebar going where it should be ribbed.

Really? You have stood by and watched the wrong steel going in the hole in your own projects. I hope you didn't kill anyone. Good projects in Thailand have quality ensured by the Owner's Engineers or Contractor's staff. Why do people from the West expect some government employee to come along and take care of everything for them. Most of the projects that I have worked on here have been built in Industrial Estates and every one has been inspected during construction by IEAT Engineers but quality and safety are always ensured by the Owner's Engineers and Contractors

really ??,.......so all the labourers were wearing helmets and steel toe cap boots with high vis jackets too i suppose ? ..........and all the electric earthed and the vehicles were all roadworthy / safe ???...........sorry, dont believe a word of it !

[witsawakorn]

People complain about building inspectors... until the smelly stuff hits the fan.

The rebar I've seen going into foundations has been a joke. I can't keep from commenting everytime I see bundles of the scrawny stuff.

They have building inspectors here? None ever dropped by to inspect any of my projects. I can't comment on the quality of the steel but I've sure seen lots of smooth rebar going where it should be ribbed.

Really? You have stood by and watched the wrong steel going in the hole in your own projects. I hope you didn't kill anyone. Good projects in Thailand have quality ensured by the Owner's Engineers or Contractor's staff. Why do people from the West expect some government employee to come along and take care of everything for them. Most of the projects that I have worked on here have been built in Industrial Estates and every one has been inspected during construction by IEAT Engineers but quality and safety are always ensured by the Owner's Engineers and Contractors

really ??,.......so all the labourers were wearing helmets and steel toe cap boots with high vis jackets too i suppose ? ..........and all the electric earthed and the vehicles were all roadworthy / safe ???...........sorry, dont believe a word of it !

Why don't you believe it? Presumably because you have no relevant experience. I have worked on Projects in Thailand where all workers wear PPE on the construction site.and one recent project had no LTIs over a 30 month construction period. I can prove it Anyone can walk past a 2 bit building site in Thailand and see safety violations but projects run by multinational companies tend to require higher standards. Good safety standards are difficult to achieve on all construction projects worldwide but it can be achieved even in Thailand believe it or not.

[Soutpeel]

Why don't you believe it? Presumably because you have no relevant experience. I have worked on Projects in Thailand where all workers wear PPE on the construction site.and one recent project had no LTIs over a 30 month construction period. I can prove it Anyone can walk past a 2 bit building site in Thailand and see safety violations but projects run by multinational companies tend to require higher standards. Good safety standards are difficult to achieve on all construction projects worldwide but it can be achieved even in Thailand believe it or not.

Agreed.....I have worked sites here were the safety standards in place were higher than some of the western countries I have worked in

[astral]

I thought recycling was an essential part of the Steel industry

Every tonne of new steel made from scrap steel saves:

• 1,115 kg of iron ore
  
• 625kg of coal
  
• 53kg of limestone
  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrap