How Did You Learn The Tone Rules For Reading?

[Learned]

I'm starting out learning to read Thai and have learnt the consonants and the vowel characters as well as the tone marks.

I am now trying to learn the tone rules for reading i.e. High con. + long vowel = rising tone.

I found I was able to learn the characters by remember this names and what things their shape reminded me off i.e. gor gai looks like a chicken.

However with the tone rules I am finding it hard to give them any kind of symbol or pattern to help me remember them.

Does anyone have any tips on how they learnt them? By my estimates there are at least 20 to learn which is quite a lot!

My other question is when you have learnt them and are reading do you actually use them? I.e. when you read are you constantly thinking "High con. + long vowel = rising tone, high con + short vowel = low tone"? Or do you just see a word and instantly know what tone it is?

If anyone knows of any online games or quizes that test you on the tones rules that would be good as it might help me remember them.

Thanks.

[ludditeman]

Forget tones on most words.

Remember tones on the 10-20 words in frequent use with different meanings.

(Cow, Maa, Key, Mai, etc)

Spend the time saved increasing your vocab.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ludditeman

[kikenyoy]

Maybe the worst "advice" I've ever read on this forum.

[leosmith]

Does anyone have any tips on how they learnt them? By my estimates there are at least 20 to learn which is quite a lot!

My other question is when you have learnt them and are reading do you actually use them? I.e. when you read are you constantly thinking "High con. + long vowel = rising tone, high con + short vowel = low tone"? Or do you just see a word and instantly know what tone it is?

I worked through Thai for Beginners. It has a very systematic approach for learning how to read tones, and is a great all around text book for introducing one to the language.

When I look at a word, the rules don't really go thru my mind exactly like you said. On words I don't know, it's like all the pertaining pronunciation rules come together to make me pronounce the word a certain way. Sometimes on a tough one a particular rule will dominate my thoughts for a split second. But on words I already know, I have the pronunciation memorized already, so I don't think of rules. I recommend reading out loud whenever possible, especially in the first few hundred hours of reading.

And of course, ignore the people who tell you to ignore tones.

[Richard W]

Start with the sequence for live syllables (no tone, mai ek etc.) with mid tone-class initial - mid, low, falling, high, rising.

Mai tri and mai chattawa should only occur in Standard Thai with mid tone-class initial. (When you see them elsewhere, they have the same meaning as for live syllables with mid tone-class initial.)

With high tone-class initial. substitute rising for mid - that is the only difference between the two tone classes.

For low class initial, omit low from the sequence - so mai ek yields falling not low, and mai tho yields high. (Actually. mai tri and mai chattawa have the same values as for the mid class, but should not occur on with low or high class initials in Standard Thai.)

Dead syllables are treated as mai ek, except that you should think that low class initial consonant plus short vowel does not allow long enough to fall, so low class initial, dead syllable, short vowel yields high, not falling.

I make that ten rules.

You can supplement them with the backup mnemonic that low class initial and low tone do not occur together, and a high class initial and a high tone do not occur together.

[koknia]

You just have to get this grid into your head.

http://blog.joshsager.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/completeToneRules.jpg

Bit of memorization and it's done.

[wrevelate]

i can tell you what worked for me: there s a book called easythaialphabet or learn to read in 24 a day - u can download a book for 13 bucks. people rave about it on the internet, so i tried it out, and everything about the alphabet is laid out plain, simple, straightforward in an easy to remember way (including the tone rules) i highly recommend it. it has been a huge time-saver for me and got me on the road to reading. the more you read the quicker you can realize the tone, so try this book and read your ass off. also, there s a plethora of invaluable reading resources are on learningthai which are all free

[wolf5370]

Start with the sequence for live syllables (no tone, mai ek etc.) with mid tone-class initial - mid, low, falling, high, rising.

Mai tri and mai chattawa should only occur in Standard Thai with mid tone-class initial. (When you see them elsewhere, they have the same meaning as for live syllables with mid tone-class initial.)

With high tone-class initial. substitute rising for mid - that is the only difference between the two tone classes.

For low class initial, omit low from the sequence - so mai ek yields falling not low, and mai tho yields high. (Actually. mai tri and mai chattawa have the same values as for the mid class, but should not occur on with low or high class initials in Standard Thai.)

Dead syllables are treated as mai ek, except that you should think that low class initial consonant plus short vowel does not allow long enough to fall, so low class initial, dead syllable, short vowel yields high, not falling.

I make that ten rules.

You can supplement them with the backup mnemonic that low class initial and low tone do not occur together, and a high class initial and a high tone do not occur together.

Yep this is sage advice - the way I did it. Class at a time. You will find that as you practice more and learn the classes of the consonants, that you naturally start to apply the correct tone - don't know how, it just works that way (guess its like we learn as kids how to pronounce words that are not always sounded as spelled - practice makes perfect). If I have to think of the rules, it takes me a few seconds, but I can read (albeit no where near as fast as in English) quite naturally withpout thinking of them. For starters though, follow Richard's advice.

[cameozo]

I made an anki flashcard deck from the words and sounds of Teach Yourself Thai. There are also some poems you can learn. I found these, though they are a bit incomplete

High class:

ผี ฝาก ถุง ข้าวสาร ให้ ฉัน

ghost leave bag rice raw for me

(the ghost left a bag of uncooked rice for me)

Low Class:

พ่อ ค้า ฟัน ทอง ซื้อ ช้าง ฮอ

ภ ฆ ธ ฌ ฒ ฑ ฅ (left out)

the male salesperson with gold teeth buys a strong elephant.

Mid Class:

ไก่ จิก เด็ก ตาย ฎ ฏ บน ปาก โอ่ง

chicken peck children die on mouth of large ceramic bottle= the chicked pecked the children to death on the mouth of the container.

And my flashcards looked like this. I went in the order of the book so I didn't overwhelm myself. One chapter per day is easy enough.

Side1:

มา

Side2:

mah

to come

mid

Low Class

Long Vowel

Live

[AjarnPasa]

I learned the rules for mid class first which was pretty straightforward with a little drilling with Anki.

Then I did the high class which, having nailed mid class, was really easy because they are exactly the same, with the exceptions that live syllable with no tone mark is rising not mid tone. Also simplified further by the fact that high class never uses the third and fourth tone marks (and neither do low class for that matter).

Low class took a little longer because there are a few more permutations to the rules. But, given that by that time I barely had to think about applying the tone rules for mid and high having drilled and internalized them with Anki, it just meant sticking at it until they clicked.

Keep at it, it'll come.

[jamiesensei]

I find this colour coded chart I made quite useful (the three columns are for the constant class):

Edited February 20, 2012 by jamiesensei

[ludditeman]

I've yet to hear a sensible explanation of why anyone needs to learn tone rules for reading?

I rarely read out loud to other people, my lips don't even move when I read ..... so why would I need to know tone rules for reading?

[Hardie]

High-class consonants keep their loops turned in, except for the "k" sounds, which are "kontrary." The rest are easy.

[joemck168]

''Thai for Travellers'' is the Best Book and CD i have found on this matter,

its by Benjawan Poomsan Becker, Most Thai friends / bungalow staff will take the time to teach you.

tones R important cos other wise u r saying the wrong word

mai mai mai mai?, new wood burns doesnt it?

[ludditeman]

ไม้ ใหม่ ไหม้ ไหม

I can't say it, but I can read and write it.

ใคร ขาย ไข่ ไก่

I can read, write and speak this one though.

Edited February 20, 2012 by ludditeman

[wolf5370]

ไม้ ใหม่ ไหม้ ไหม

I can't say it, but I can read and write it.

And that's the answer to your question...why learn it? so that you can say it - so that it helps you understand what other people say too. To a deaf mute, then fine, but if you are going to speak as well, then being able to convert text to speech helps learning, using the dictionary,and so on. Learning to read properly makes it much easier to learn from books etc, because transliteration sucks.

Although the tongue twister you spelled out would still be difficult to say - which is why no one would actually say the sentance with those words other than for fun.

Edited February 20, 2012 by wolf5370

[ludditeman]

ไม้ ใหม่ ไหม้ ไหม

I can't say it, but I can read and write it.

...... because transliteration sucks.

We can all agree on that, but tone rules, not so sure.

I can understand them without tones, so why can't they understand me.

When I write, and miss off tone markers, they can understand too, which is very strange.

I don't like to speak Thai much anyway. Much better to listen and pretend stupid.

Edited February 20, 2012 by ludditeman

[leosmith]

I don't like to speak Thai much anyway. Much better to listen and pretend stupid.

If you know the answer, why ask the question? The number one goal of most Thai learners is conversation. Learning correct pronunciation before anything else is a good idea. Otherwise you can fossilize bad habits. And once you do that, it can be very hard to reverse them. Learning it right the first time is the most efficient path.

[Parvis]

Thailands illiteracy rate for Thai people between age 15 and 50 is 4-5% per statistics.

Can they speak Thai? - ofcourse. Do they know the tone rules? - ofcourse not - or at least - not very likely.

Therefore, it certainly is possible to speak Thai correctly and fluently without knowing Thai script nor tone rules.

However, as adults already speaking at least one other language - we have the option (not the obligation) to use our intellectual capacity more completely by learning to read and write Thaiscript. We therefore will also need to learn the tone-rules to be able to differentiate between -ไม้ ใหม่ ไหม้ ไหม - etc etc etc - for the purpose of reading. In theory - ofcourse - if you know the tone-rules you should be able to correctly pronounce what you are reading.

However, correct pronounciation is a seperate issue - in my opinion, which most likely you will need to practice with a native Thai speaker from day 1 of your Thai Language studies.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Parvis

[ludditeman]

We therefore will also need to learn the tone-rules to be able to differentiate between -ไม้ ใหม่ ไหม้ ไหม - etc etc etc - for the purpose of reading. In theory - ofcourse - if you know the tone-rules you should be able to correctly pronounce what you are reading.

I remember the words as separate 'pictures' as do most Thai people.

I doubt any Thai person you asked (apart from a Thai language teacher) could even tell you what the tone rules are.

[Parvis]

Correct, however to be able to read it AND pronounce it correctly does not imply you will understand what you are reading. Therefore, the next NEXT STEP should involve memorizing the particular words - which is probably best done in a picture (just like a child does it).

Edited February 21, 2012 by Parvis

[leosmith]

The point is, if you are reading, whether aloud or not, and you aren't pronouncing things correctly, you are making a big mistake. You can memorize how to pronounce thousands of words and sentences, which is more or less how native speakers do it, or you can memorize a hand full of tone rules, etc. Up to you. I personally think that a westerner starting the language as an adult will get faster results by starting with the tone rule route. Later, he will have to memorize lots of exceptions. But starting with the tone rules will get him reading "safely" earlier, imo.

[ludditeman]

The point is, if you are reading, whether aloud or not, and you aren't pronouncing things correctly, you are making a big mistake. You can memorize how to pronounce thousands of words and sentences, which is more or less how native speakers do it, or you can memorize a hand full of tone rules, etc. Up to you. I personally think that a westerner starting the language as an adult will get faster results by starting with the tone rule route. Later, he will have to memorize lots of exceptions. But starting with the tone rules will get him reading "safely" earlier, imo.

My experience tends to show to show the opposite.

Many old farts in my reading/writing class obsessed by tone rules, and no vocabulary, unable to participate on the simplest levels.

[Parvis]

1) You need to be able to pronounce the word correctly for a Thai person to understand you (whether or not you are an "old fart").

2) You need to increase your vocabulary constantly to be able to communicate effectively with Thai people.

Another farang often may understand your Thai better than a Thai person - for obvious reasons - he makes the same mistakes. Therefore, communicating with other farangs in class does not proof your Thai pronounciation is correct. Vocabulary without correct pronounciation is unlikely to be understood by Thai people.

(Incidentally - I am an "old fart")

Edited February 21, 2012 by Parvis

[leosmith]

Many old farts in my reading/writing class obsessed by tone rules, and no vocabulary, unable to participate on the simplest levels.

Why do they have less vocabulary than the others? Learning correct pronunciation from the beginning shouldn't take so much time away from them that you'd notice a big difference in vocabulary.

What Parvis said is absolutely correct. You need correct pronunciation to be understood.

Imagine how much better your Thai would be if you had just learnt good pronunciation from the beginning. No need to encourage others to go down your same path.

[Learned]

You just have to get this grid into your head.

http://blog.joshsage...teToneRules.jpg

Bit of memorization and it's done.

Thanks, that makes it look very easy!

[downtown]

get David Smyth's teach yourself Thai book; an absolute god-send. the first and still the best thai - english book ive read. has excellent sections on how to know which tone.

[Learned]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

I can't see why not learning the tones rules and how to read the words with the right tone can be a good thing if I want to learn to read for speaking purposes.

[makescents]

get David Smyth's teach yourself Thai book; an absolute god-send. the first and still the best thai - english book ive read. has excellent sections on how to know which tone.

There's a few errors in the new edition. Vowels missing in the index, transliteration incorrect etc. Best getting the edition before the current one, the content is almost identical anyway.

Edited March 10, 2012 by makescents

[Puschl]

Forget tones on most words.

I can't see why not learning the tones rules and how to read the words with the right tone can be a good thing if I want to learn to read for speaking purposes.

Glad to see you didn't fall for it. I made that mistake when learning from a book that presented the tone rules in a confusing way. Took me a long time to re-learn all my vocab with correct pronunciation. The 'fast progress' due to ignoring tone rules was wasted time, and caused more problems in the long run. I'm still struggling with many words which I initially learned wrong.

You just have to get this grid into your head.

http://blog.joshsage...teToneRules.jpg

Bit of memorization and it's done.

Thanks, that makes it look very easy!

And it actually is. All you need to learn is about ten rules, plus the consonant classes, vowel lengths and the distinction between live and dead syllables. The table helped me a lot. Although Richard W gave an excellent summary, I find it difficult to learn without the structured overview. His very good points: go slowly, and start with mid-class rules - as they are sort of a 'backbone'.

Here's some more info, which I found useful. Try to pick the cherries. What's useful for one type of learner may not benefit others at all (e.g. I find Highspeed Thai ridiculous, but some visual learners find it great).

The mid-class consonants are the unaspirated stops กจ(ฎ ฏ)ดตบป and the "special" consonant อ. The distinction between low and high class consonants needs to be learned by heart (e.g. using poems like the ones pasted in by cameozo). It helps to know that all sonorants are low class consonants: ง น ม ย ร ล ว . In some words, a silent ห (high class) is used before the initial consonant to force high-class tone rules on a syllable starting with a sonorant (low class).

Live syllables are those ending in N, M, NG or a long vowel, so basically syllables that you can keep voicing as long as you wish. Dead syllables are those ending in K, P, T or a short vowel. Note that e.g. รลญ->N, สช->T at the end of a syllable.

In open syllables (ones that end in a vowel) vowel length is needed to distinguish between live (long) and dead (short). Also for dead, low initial consonant syllables without tone marks, vowel length is significant for tone rules (short->high, long->falling). In other cases, vowel length is not significant for tone rules (Peace, Giovanni, it is still significant for correct pronunciation!)

Here's a slightly more annotated version of above table: http://www.thai-lang...les#tonesummary,

There are several notations of the tones. I find the tone names and associated one letter symbols M(id), L(ow), F(alling), H(igh), R(ising) somewhat confusing (low actually does fall, falling rises and falls again, ...). Thais call them something like regular tone (เสียงสามัญ), primary tone (เสียงเอก), secondary tone (เสียงโท), tertiary tone (เสียงตรี) and quarterny tone (เสียงจัตวา), i.e. numbered in Pali (like we'd use Latin). The tone marks have similar names,ไม้ meaning symbol, character: ไม้เอก, ไม้โท, ไม้ตรี, ไม้จัตวา. For mid- and high-class consonants, the mapping of tone mark to spoken tone is as expected. ไม้เอก -> เสียงเอก, ไม้โท -> เสียงโท , ... For low-class consonants, add +1 to the mark to get the tone: ไม้เอก -> เสียงโท, ไม้โท -> เสียงตรี. Some transcription systems use 1, 2, 3, 4 to denote the tones (not the tone marks!). I like the tone contour marks used in some other transcription systems: mid, lòw, fâlling, hígh, ... (I can't type the upside down ^ for rising). When I learned the tone rules, I drew the tone rule chart by hand, using - \ ^ / v instead of M, L, F, H, R.

Practicing both hearing (tone recognition) and speaking (correct pronunciation) is invaluable. Here's an example audio resource: http://www.learningt...consonants.html