Jail For Thailand Sex Tours

[webfact]

Jail for Thailand sex tours

MICHELLE ROBINSON

AUCKLAND: -- In a New Zealand first, an Auckland motel and property owner has been jailed for organising a child sex tour to Thailand.

The 48-year-old, whose name is suppressed, was today sentenced to three years jail after being found guilty in November in the High Court at Auckland.

The charge related to the man making travel arrangements for an undercover police officer, who in a sting operation had inquired about having sex with prostitutes under the age of 18.

The man was earlier found not guilty of publishing information promoting child sex tours.

The maximum sentence available for the charge of making travel arrangements was seven years jail, but Justice Edwin Wylie said the offending was not "the most serious of its kind" and seemed "relatively typical of its type".

Dressed tidily in a black suit, the now-bankrupt motel, property and business owner stood impassively in the dock as his sentence was read out.

The man was arrested after booking flights for himself and officer "Michael Gray" and creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel".

The itinerary included visiting places where the man had gone previously to have sex with young men.

Justice Wylie said the man had little consideration for the effects on the Thai boys who he thought Gray would have sex with.

"Your intentions were to make money," Wylie said. "Your actions are despicable.

Full story: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/6414165/Jail-for-Thailand-child-sex-tours

-- stuff.co.nz 2012-02-14

[fire and ice]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

[luckyman]

It's a step in the right direction although Thai local law enforcement could be and should be much more vigilant in the first place.

Then, people like this New Zealander wouldn't have had the opportunity to organise trips like these altogether, would he?

[TheGhostWithin]

In my country, Thailand is completely associated with nice beaches, filled with prostitutes.

My girlfriend is Thai, and lives with me in New Zealand after endless preparation to get her here on the first attempt. I feel sad for her, as I see the look on some peoples faces when they find out she is Thai - they assume that she is a prostitute that I bought here, even though is has a bachelors degree and worked at Suvarnabhumi for 2 years prior to her arrival here.

The NZ media (a generally feminist, anti-male motivated machine) would love to do nothing more than show up all those "dirty men" that go to Thailand, and further demonise Thailand in the eyes of my countrymen. Shame on this pig for arranging child sex tours (which he did, I can confirm), though shame on the media for using deception to demonise a country which does not wholly deserve its reputation.

[rafval]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

the article didnt make that distinction because most of NZ society cant make it

[rikkie]

In my country, Thailand is completely associated with nice beaches, filled with prostitutes.

My girlfriend is Thai, and lives with me in New Zealand after endless preparation to get her here on the first attempt. I feel sad for her, as I see the look on some peoples faces when they find out she is Thai - they assume that she is a prostitute that I bought here, even though is has a bachelors degree and worked at Suvarnabhumi for 2 years prior to her arrival here.

The NZ media (a generally feminist, anti-male motivated machine) would love to do nothing more than show up all those "dirty men" that go to Thailand, and further demonise Thailand in the eyes of my countrymen. Shame on this pig for arranging child sex tours (which he did, I can confirm), though shame on the media for using deception to demonise a country which does not wholly deserve its reputation.

I agree, even my wive is manager in 3 stores if she walk on the street with me we get looks, lets get all the bar's closed and make thailand bankrupt more crime and more drugs, you have prostitution everywhere, and thailand is the only land i know where 99% of the sexworkers are freelance, so narrow minded people out there, try to understand why some lady do that job, to get food for there family and kids. Under age... i see pregnant girl here 14 year, so not only falang have sex with under age girl, as i disprove this but it is a fact. Thai lady can take care themselves and will do everything necessary.

Never look down to bargirl she put food on the table... and she not like to do it but have no choice, Not everybody is lucky to get a university degree

[BigJohnnyBKK]

> The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Are you sure? More and more western countries are putting laws in place against even individuals travelling "for the purpose of engaging in" sex tourism. I would imagine New Zealand would be in the vanguard of modern political correctness in this as in other areas.

> The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Under both the narrow technical sense of legality, and in widespread public opinion on morality, there is absolutely no difference between consensual sex with a 17-year-old professional sex-worker and forcibly raping a younger child.

Especially in the context of international law and domestic laws enforcing treaties, the bar is being raised higher and higher, and the onus is always on the foreign customer with money. The local players are allowed to operate as usual, the whole point is to kow-tow to the international community by deterring the western citizens from coming to play.

It's all well and good to draw these "gray area" distinctions when discussing sexual ethics in the abstract, but in practice you need to operate with full awareness that the "real world" operates in black and white.

An acquaintance in the business in Pattaya told me the cops just did a sweep of her bar's neighborhood, and each bar with under-18 girls working had to pay B100,000 "fines". I personally know several guys that have been set up by cops for blackmail schemes, there aren't any "entrapment" arguments here.

The only safe practice is to ask for ID cards, learn to figure out the true age of your teelak before starting to play. Technically farang are only supposed to take sexworkers over 20, between 18 and 20 is only allowed for genuine romances, as if such a thing existed here 8-)

[Ulysses G.]

The only safe practice is to ask for ID cards

Most underaged girls have fake IDs. That is not safe.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

The topic is about sex tourism, not incest.

[ThaiSold]

The only safe practice is to ask for ID cards

Most underaged girls have fake IDs. That is not safe.

That's not true, how many fake Thai ID's have you seen? 7 years minimum jail for the person who makes them and noone is willing to make them either.

[astanhope]

In my country, Thailand is completely associated with nice beaches, filled with prostitutes.

My girlfriend is Thai, and lives with me in New Zealand after endless preparation to get her here on the first attempt. I feel sad for her, as I see the look on some peoples faces when they find out she is Thai - they assume that she is a prostitute that I bought here, even though is has a bachelors degree and worked at Suvarnabhumi for 2 years prior to her arrival here.

The NZ media (a generally feminist, anti-male motivated machine) would love to do nothing more than show up all those "dirty men" that go to Thailand, and further demonise Thailand in the eyes of my countrymen. Shame on this pig for arranging child sex tours (which he did, I can confirm), though shame on the media for using deception to demonise a country which does not wholly deserve its reputation.

The New Zealand media is "anti-male motivated?" All of it?

What were the anti-male motives behind this story?

Is the NZ media "anti-gay motivated," as well?

If this story was "anti child-rapist motivated," wouldn't that be a good thing?

How is it that you can confirm that the perpetrator organized sex tours?

[Commentor]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Totally agreed with you the thread title is misleading. May be the editor is actually more afraid of scaring the child sex operator business away.

[Ulysses G.]

The only safe practice is to ask for ID cards

Most underaged girls have fake IDs. That is not safe.

That's not true, how many fake Thai ID's have you seen? 7 years minimum jail for the person who makes them and noone is willing to make them either.

Fake as in they borrow one from an older sister or friend. Thai women often do not look the same as their ID photos with makeup on, so it is often hard to tell if it is their real ID. .

Edited February 15, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[harrycallahan]

If the whole thing went ahead the sex acts would have occurred in Thailand not New Zealand. Shouldn't they be considering the age of consent in Thailand, and isn't it Thailand's problem where such acts occur in Thailand? I can understand it being an offence to organise sex with children, real children, but that doesn't mean under 18; many western countries consider it fine for 16 year olds to have sex with other adults of their choosing.

Also, if he'd organised his tour to Qatar he could have legally brought the age down to 12!

[Orac]

If the whole thing went ahead the sex acts would have occurred in Thailand not New Zealand. Shouldn't they be considering the age of consent in Thailand, and isn't it Thailand's problem where such acts occur in Thailand? I can understand it being an offence to organise sex with children, real children, but that doesn't mean under 18; many western countries consider it fine for 16 year olds to have sex with other adults of their choosing.

Also, if he'd organised his tour to Qatar he could have legally brought the age down to 12!

I assume they were using 16 as the age limit as this is the age of consent in New Zealand. Since it was a sex tour, ie.paid sex, the age of consent would be 18 in Thailand.

[sandpaper]

Never look down to bargirl she put food on the table... and she not like to do it but have no choice, Not everybody is lucky to get a university degree

Look, like in any other country, becoming a prostitute is a choice - the easy one. As I found out not so long ago from a charming Thai lady, universities in Thailand offer government support for smart kids entering higher educational establishments. So, if you study hard, you can stay at university and receive your education for free - and the government will pay you to keep studying hard. It's not about "luck", folks. It's about work, 'tis that simple. The Thai lady I work with attends English classes, works full-time and also does her distance studies at university - and she pays for everything herself, no need to sell her body. And please don't get me wrong - the girl comes from Isaan, like many here, and her family is not rich. She just works hard, that's all it takes.

[Baerboxer]

Never look down to bargirl she put food on the table... and she not like to do it but have no choice, Not everybody is lucky to get a university degree

Look, like in any other country, becoming a prostitute is a choice - the easy one. As I found out not so long ago from a charming Thai lady, universities in Thailand offer government support for smart kids entering higher educational establishments. So, if you study hard, you can stay at university and receive your education for free - and the government will pay you to keep studying hard. It's not about "luck", folks. It's about work, 'tis that simple. The Thai lady I work with attends English classes, works full-time and also does her distance studies at university - and she pays for everything herself, no need to sell her body. And please don't get me wrong - the girl comes from Isaan, like many here, and her family is not rich. She just works hard, that's all it takes.

That's a nice story, and good luck to your friend. Sadly, many girls don't get that chance and are forced by circumstances to earn money from some form of sex work - chat lines, webcams, massage parlours, escort services. These are all easily found in many countries, not just Thailand. I'm sure some of the girls do see it as easier and more lucrative than other work; whilst others have been deprived education, good parents or fallen pregnant and desserted. Generalisations and stereotyping aren't usually applicable when dealing with humans. However, doing this type of work, wether by choice or necessity, creates physical and mental risks for the person and almost certainly has emotional affects.

It is equally annoying that some people in many so called first world countries do stereotype all Thai ladies, when they actually have no idea of Thailand, Thai culture or probably what goes on in their own country. My wife has bachelor's and master's degrees and had never been in a Thai bar in her life - yes, she's from Isaan but has good parents. Yet, we still got the "knowing looks" from certain numpties.

[kerryk]

Thailand has zero unemployment. Anyone who wants a job can get one. Thousands of Burmese come across the border daily to do jobs that Thais won't do. Bar girls are bar girls because it's fun work for good money. If you don't know this than you have never lived in Pattaya. I have for years.

[bigbamboo]

In my country, Thailand is completely associated with nice beaches, filled with prostitutes.

My girlfriend is Thai, and lives with me in New Zealand after endless preparation to get her here on the first attempt. I feel sad for her, as I see the look on some peoples faces when they find out she is Thai - they assume that she is a prostitute that I bought here, even though is has a bachelors degree and worked at Suvarnabhumi for 2 years prior to her arrival here.

The NZ media (a generally feminist, anti-male motivated machine) would love to do nothing more than show up all those "dirty men" that go to Thailand, and further demonise Thailand in the eyes of my countrymen. Shame on this pig for arranging child sex tours (which he did, I can confirm), though shame on the media for using deception to demonise a country which does not wholly deserve its reputation.

This will make her feel better. In my country New Zealand is associated with men who like rugby, beer, sheep and women... in that order.

[chooka]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Entrapment is an American thing and there is no such animal in either Kiwi or aussie laws. Also in Australian and New Zealand law a child is anyone under the age of 18 yrs.

[kerryk]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Entrapment is an American thing and there is no such animal in either Kiwi or aussie laws. Also in Australian and New Zealand law a child is anyone under the age of 18 yrs.

I googled the "Age of consent" in New Zealand and it is 16. Where do you get the idea it is 18?

[chooka]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Entrapment is an American thing and there is no such animal in either Kiwi or aussie laws. Also in Australian and New Zealand law a child is anyone under the age of 18 yrs.

I googled the "Age of consent" in New Zealand and it is 16. Where do you get the idea it is 18?

The age of consent is 16 yes. A child is a person under the age of 18 years.

[kerryk]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Entrapment is an American thing and there is no such animal in either Kiwi or aussie laws. Also in Australian and New Zealand law a child is anyone under the age of 18 yrs.

I googled the "Age of consent" in New Zealand and it is 16. Where do you get the idea it is 18?

The age of consent is 16 yes. A child is a person under the age of 18 years.

So a child can legally get married and have sex in New Zealand?

[TheGhostWithin]

...

Thanks for responding.

The New Zealand media is "anti-male motivated?" All of it?

Whilst obviously not all, you can read any number of productions and any article, it is typically female orientated, and often belittling of men. Merely publishing this content is anti-male. Malest attitudes are usually never published in the same magazines, and are therefore bias against Male views.

I would also like to mention, I have come across increasing numbers of Females, from both NZ and Australia, who go into bars for sex with the bar girls. I drink with friends in some of these establishments, though I have a girlfriend (she comes with me) and I do not take girls from the bar, just so that you don't go forming any ideas of what I get up to.

What were the anti-male motives behind this story? Absolutely none, the offender deserves what he got, though he should do his time in a Thai prison, and suffer the punishment of the country he offended in.

Is the NZ media "anti-gay motivated," as well? Unlike some other western countries, the NZ media is pro-gay. I would guesstimate that a very large percentage of those working in the media (particularly TV personalities) who are Male, are gay. I know this, because I used to work for Mediaworks, a major media organisation in NZ.

If this story was "anti child-rapist motivated," wouldn't that be a good thing? Absolutely. As stated, this guy deserves to rot in hell. It is one thing to feed your own addiction, destroying your victims life as you do, it is another to arrange the destruction of other persons lives by facilitating this kind of crude activity.

How is it that you can confirm that the perpetrator organized sex tours? I know the details of the case. He offered sex tours via his website, then offered addtional services once contact and a trust relationship had been made with the customer. Reputation ensured those within the BL (Boy Lover) community knew what he was up to and where to find what they wanted. This offender was caught as stated by an undercover officer posing as a customer who was a BL.

Edited February 17, 2012 by TheGhostWithin

[TheGhostWithin]

So a child can legally get married and have sex in New Zealand?

They can have sex at 16, and can marry with written permission to the courts by the parents. They can marry at 18 without parental consent. They can legally partake in prostitution within a legally registered brothel at the age of 18, if I am not mistaken.

[softgeorge]

The headline of the article is typically misleading as it neglects to include the word "child" until you read the actual article. Tehrefore implying that orgnaising adult sex tours would be illegal under NZ law, which is nonesense.

Also, based purely on the way the article is written, the police used entrapment. Obviously this was not the case as I cant imagine he would have been found guilty if this were true. But nothing in the rest of the article indicates anything illegal:

eg: "creating an itinerary for him that included visiting known gay sex hotspots. The man also gave Gray an explicit phrase card that included translations such as "how much for overnight?" and "let's go to my hotel"."

--- this could all be for sex with adults! The article fails to detail sufficently what has this has specifically got to do with child prostitution.

The article could be more clear and specific on hwo this related to CHILD protitution. They also fail to mention the ages of the children we are talking about here. Are they 10 years old or 17? Quite a difference, despite both being illegal its still important to point it out as depatie the law, any 17 year has a pretty good idea of what they are doing etc.

Entrapment is an American thing and there is no such animal in either Kiwi or aussie laws. Also in Australian and New Zealand law a child is anyone under the age of 18 yrs.

I googled the "Age of consent" in New Zealand and it is 16. Where do you get the idea it is 18?

Anyone under the age of 18 in Aust is still by law a child and I believe that the same applies in the sister country N.Z The age of consent in both countries is 16. Once you attain the age of 18 you are considered an adult and can vote, get a driver licence and drink alcohol.

[softgeorge]

So a child can legally get married and have sex in New Zealand?

They can have sex at 16, and can marry with written permission to the courts by the parents. They can marry at 18 without parental consent. They can legally partake in prostitution within a legally registered brothel at the age of 18, if I am not mistaken.

If you are under 12, a person can't have sex with you or touch you sexually or perform a sexual act in front of you, even if you agree.

If you are 12 to 15, a person can’t have sex with you, touch you sexually or perform a sexual act in front of you if they are more than two years older than you, even if you agree.

[Jimjim]

In my country, Thailand is completely associated with nice beaches, filled with prostitutes.

My girlfriend is Thai, and lives with me in New Zealand after endless preparation to get her here on the first attempt. I feel sad for her, as I see the look on some peoples faces when they find out she is Thai - they assume that she is a prostitute that I bought here, even though is has a bachelors degree and worked at Suvarnabhumi for 2 years prior to her arrival here.

The NZ media (a generally feminist, anti-male motivated machine) would love to do nothing more than show up all those "dirty men" that go to Thailand, and further demonise Thailand in the eyes of my countrymen. Shame on this pig for arranging child sex tours (which he did, I can confirm), though shame on the media for using deception to demonise a country which does not wholly deserve its reputation.

Well said, mate.

[Rusty2009]

Again we are debating ages of consent, please do not forget the morality of his crime, and the lack of respect, he showed for his "victims" or young Thai people. I see it as just another case of white man comes and conquers

[metisdead]

Discussion of Jail For Thailand Sex Tours would be on topic, while discussion of age of consent in New Zealand and Australia would be another topic altogether.

Edit: An off topic post has been removed.

Edited February 24, 2012 by metisdead