Man Shot Dead On American Airlines Plane

[cdnvic]

Keep in mind that all terrorists in the past had also cleared security.

cv

[zzap]

Does "the world we live in" make it necessary to shoot-to-kill people and make up stories to justify why one did it?

Sorry, I don't live in that world, my life is not ruled by fear and propaganda.

Someone running down the aisle does not cause me to loose my rational judgement.

[britmaveric]

Keep in mind that all terrorists in the past had also cleared security.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And also keep in mind - the lads doing security checks aren't that good either.

[Boon Mee]

Testing security measures or suicide?  Wierd.

"Suicide By Cop" is not that unusual...

[zzap]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

[britmaveric]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

one of the many measure to deter threat....

[cdnvic]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about

Because the Sept11 hijackers used small utility knives, and if Richard Reid had a lighter he would likely have blown up an aircraft over the Atlantic. He had hidden a bomb where nobody thought to look.

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

cv

[zzap]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

one of the many measure to deter threat....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and set the mood for curbing civil liberties even further...

[Rinrada]

The only way to be 100% secure with regards passengers travelling on a plane is to insist that they all travel completely..NAKED.

Even then I am sure that if someone was up to something untowards they would probabaly conceal wot ever up their jacksi.

Could you imagine all these air marshall sitting there with with their J.W.cowboys hats on and six shooters strategetley positioned...Easy identifiable...dosnt bare thinking about..

[britmaveric]

The only way to be 100% secure with regards passengers travelling on a plane is to insist that they all travel completely..NAKED.

Even then I am sure that if someone was up to something untowards they would probabaly conceal wot ever up their jacksi.

Could you imagine all these air marshall sitting there with with their J.W.cowboys hats on and six shooters strategetley positioned...Easy identifiable...dosnt bare thinking about..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rinrada - ahhh the images popping in my head from that scenario!!!

Edited December 10, 2005 by britmaveric

[opothai]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

one of the many measure to deter threat....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and set the mood for curbing civil liberties even further...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i would like to hear your thoughts on what security measures should or should not be implemented.

as i said this is the world we live in, and on this subject at this moment thier are not to many outcries from the majority of the populace in the uk, but the minority are trying to change that, but they will not,

untill thier is a better system of security we are stuck with the shoot to kill policy.

[zzap]

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a kind thought, Smartie.

I'll be the first one to subscribe to it, there won't be any know-it-all rednecks intimidating me, after all, I could pick someone's eye out with a toothpick, couldn't I?

And what is the point of confiscating penknives, when you'll get steel cutlery with your inflight dinner?

I prefer to be able to run down the aisle without being shot by some lying dimwit.

ZZap Liberty Airlines - you will be given the benefit of the doubt...

Edited December 10, 2005 by zzap

[opothai]

ZZap Liberty Airlines - you will be given the benefit of the doubt...

only for like minded people

i love it

[zzap]

i would like to hear your thoughts on what security measures should or should not be implemented.

as i said this is the world we live in, and on this subject at this moment thier are not to many outcries from the majority of the populace in the uk, but the minority are trying to change that, but they will not,

untill thier is a better system of security we are stuck with the shoot to kill policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, security for incoming flights at Heathrow is a joke, so compensating for incompetence with a shoot-to-kill policy is fine by you?

If you can't control anything else, please don't look into my underwear and make me believe there is a threat and you have it under control.

Oh boy, good thing there are so few 'terrorists' in the world, and they don't seem to be very professional...

[lomatopo]

Keep in mind that all terrorists in the past had also cleared security.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All terrorists? Pre-9/11? What are you going on about? Hundreds of people have been denied boarding due to issues encountered at TSA checkpoints.

And also keep in mind - the lads doing security checks aren't that good either. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can you support that statement with any experience? I’d agree this is probably true for airports outside the U.S., based on my experiences.

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

one of the many measure to deter threat....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What are these other measures that deter threat? Note that there is no published shoot-to- kill policy so it can hardly be considered a deterrent. Of course now it will be.

Because the Sept11 hijackers used small utility knives, and if Richard Reid had a lighter he would likely have blown up an aircraft over the Atlantic. He had hidden a bomb where nobody thought to look.

Note that all knives have been prohibited since 9/11. Shoes are now x-rayed as a result of the shoe bomber. Richard Reid had and tried using matches. Another passenger stopped him by taking his matches from him.

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You already do. Other than US carriers, and El Al, I do not believe any other carriers use air marshalls or their equivalent. Security outside the U.S. is very much more lax, again in my experience.

I’ve got no issues with current TSA procedures or the use FAMs. I’ve been subject to the former, and flown with the latter, hundreds of times, since 9/26/01.

I think the FAMs involved in this incident will not be prosecuted, nor will they lose their jobs. I think training will be modified so that this sort of incident can be avoided in the future. I think ultimately that the FAM procedures will be changed, and that hopefully this is the first and last innocent person killed by FAMs. And again, I am thankful that there was not a family coming down the jetway when the gunfire erupted.

I think there will be a large settlement by the Federal government to the family of the victim.

This gentleman who was killed was not a terrorist, nor could he have had a bomb, nor could he have been much of a threat to anyone. It is idiotic to say that this person was trying to commit suicide. It may come to pass that the FAMs were tired as a result of working a red-eye the night before, and that their judgement was ever so slightly affected and/or impaired.

[zzap]

This gentleman who was killed was not a terrorist, nor could he have had a bomb, nor could he have been much of a threat to anyone. It is idiotic to say that this person was trying to commit suicide.

I agree, but by contrast, we get comments like this, justifying wholesale slaughter on anybody who may raise suspicion:

There is no simple answer.

Some love death as much as we love life.

That's what "they" said.

Their way or no way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did the guy who was shot say this? Who are "they"?

I am sure you don't waste time contemplating complicated trick questions like this, TTM?

Shoot first, ask questions later and cover your arse with lies...

Edited December 10, 2005 by zzap

[opothai]

i would like to hear your thoughts on what security measures should or should not be implemented.

as i said this is the world we live in, and on this subject at this moment thier are not to many outcries from the majority of the populace in the uk, but the minority are trying to change that, but they will not,

untill thier is a better system of security we are stuck with the shoot to kill policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, security for incoming flights at Heathrow is a joke, so compensating for incompetence with a shoot-to-kill policy is fine by you?

If you can't control anything else, please don't look into my underwear and make me believe there is a threat and you have it under control.

Oh boy, good thing there are so few 'terrorists' in the world, and they don't seem to be very professional...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

we're still waiting for your security policy, or are you to trust every body

it is easy to critisise any thing but until thier is a viable option, i suggest we at least have a policy.

[cdnvic]

Keep in mind that all terrorists in the past had also cleared security.

cv

All terrorists? Pre-9/11? What are you going on about? Hundreds of people have been denied boarding due to issues encountered at TSA checkpoints.

All the sept11 hijackers had been through security, as had nearly all hijackers in recent history.

Because the Sept11 hijackers used small utility knives, and if Richard Reid had a lighter he would likely have blown up an aircraft over the Atlantic. He had hidden a bomb where nobody thought to look.

Note that all knives have been prohibited since 9/11. Shoes are now x-rayed as a result of the shoe bomber. Richard Reid had and tried using matches. Another passenger stopped him by taking his matches from him.

Read the previous post I was replying to. The poster was protesting the banning of knives, I was pointing out an example of why this is needed.

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

cv

You already do. Other than US carriers, and El Al, I do not believe any other carriers use air marshalls or their equivalent. Security outside the U.S. is very much more lax, again in my experience.

Canada uses them, as well as Australia, Singapore, and others. Security outside the US can be very stringent, as can it be lacking in the US occasionally.

I’ve got no issues with current TSA procedures or the use FAMs. I’ve been subject to the former, and flown with the latter, hundreds of times, since 9/26/01.

I think the FAMs involved in this incident will not be prosecuted, nor will they lose their jobs. I think training will be modified so that this sort of incident can be avoided in the future. I think ultimately that the FAM procedures will be changed, and that hopefully this is the first and last innocent person killed by FAMs. And again, I am thankful that there was not a family coming down the jetway when the gunfire erupted.

I think there will be a large settlement by the Federal government to the family of the victim.

This gentleman who was killed was not a terrorist, nor could he have had a bomb, nor could he have been much of a threat to anyone. It is idiotic to say that this person was trying to commit suicide. It may come to pass that the FAMs were tired as a result of working a red-eye the night before, and that their judgement was ever so slightly affected and/or impaired.

Easy to say when you weren't there. I suppose if you'd been behind Mohammed Atta at the security check you'd have protested him being pulled aside by security.

That being said if you cannot debate by presenting facts and must resort to calling people idiots, find somewhere else to post.

[cdnvic]

Keep in mind that all terrorists in the past had also cleared security.

cv

All terrorists? Pre-9/11? What are you going on about? Hundreds of people have been denied boarding due to issues encountered at TSA checkpoints.

All the sept11 hijackers had been through security, as had nearly all hijackers in recent history.

Because the Sept11 hijackers used small utility knives, and if Richard Reid had a lighter he would likely have blown up an aircraft over the Atlantic. He had hidden a bomb where nobody thought to look.

Note that all knives have been prohibited since 9/11. Shoes are now x-rayed as a result of the shoe bomber. Richard Reid had and tried using matches. Another passenger stopped him by taking his matches from him.

Read the previous post I was replying to. The poster was protesting the banning of knives, I was pointing out an example of why this is needed.

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

cv

You already do. Other than US carriers, and El Al, I do not believe any other carriers use air marshalls or their equivalent. Security outside the U.S. is very much more lax, again in my experience.

Canada uses them, as well as Australia, Singapore, and others. Security outside the US can be very stringent, as can it be lacking in the US occasionally.

I’ve got no issues with current TSA procedures or the use FAMs. I’ve been subject to the former, and flown with the latter, hundreds of times, since 9/26/01.

I think the FAMs involved in this incident will not be prosecuted, nor will they lose their jobs. I think training will be modified so that this sort of incident can be avoided in the future. I think ultimately that the FAM procedures will be changed, and that hopefully this is the first and last innocent person killed by FAMs. And again, I am thankful that there was not a family coming down the jetway when the gunfire erupted.

I think there will be a large settlement by the Federal government to the family of the victim.

This gentleman who was killed was not a terrorist, nor could he have had a bomb, nor could he have been much of a threat to anyone.  It is idiotic to say that this person was trying to commit suicide. It may come to pass that the FAMs were tired as a result of working a red-eye the night before, and that their judgement was ever so slightly affected and/or impaired.

Easy to say when you weren't there. I suppose if you'd been behind Mohammed Atta at the security check you'd have protested him being pulled aside by security.

That being said if you cannot debate by presenting facts and must resort to calling people idiots, find somewhere else to post.

[zzap]

I am glad you've fixed the quote function, it was hard to read before, but you didn't need to post it twice.

Read the previous post I was replying to. The poster was protesting the banning of knives, I was pointing out an example of why this is needed.

Perhaps you could point out why steel cutlery is still supplied on flights, and glass as well in 1st class, while penknives are confiscated?

Canada uses them, as well as Australia, Singapore, and others. Security outside the US can be very stringent, as can it be lacking in the US occasionally.

You are simply confirming that security is more lax outside the US, and isn't uniform within the US, either.

Easy to say when you weren't there. I suppose if you'd been behind Mohammed Atta at the security check you'd have protested him being pulled aside by security.

Pulling someone aside isn't the same as shoot-to-kill, don't you think?

That being said if you cannot debate by presenting facts and must resort to calling people idiots, find somewhere else to post.

I haven't found the bit where he called anyone an idiot , the closest to it is this:

It is idiotic to say that this person was trying to commit suicide.

Telling someone to find somewhere else to post isn't exactly the way of reason and rational argument, specially coming from a 'supermod' who hasn't read the comment properly.

Please don't suspend me again for this comment... :D

Edited December 10, 2005 by zzap

[BKK90210]

lets just say if he's indeed had a bomb in his bag...how on earth did he get pass the gate security in the first place?

The american airline told me that I couldn't even pack my fingernail clipper and hair spray in the bag because the clipper can be used as a weapon and the hair spray has airasol in it!.... and they even managed to find both of my items in the darkest corner of my carry on bag!

[britmaveric]

I fly all over yankland and let me tell you there is no uniform standard. (inluding going through customs) It's rather sad actually. Some want electronics out, some don't care, some want shoes off and some dont care.. some want your coat off some dont care. My point being is the ones that don't care are where the bloody risk is. Its a bad assumption on a marshal's part that well no way potential terrorists could get through security. His job is to assume they did make it through security.

Since 911 I've heard countless stories of people bringing weapons, ammo and all sorts of prohibited items on planes, so saying it doesnt happen is not true. Now if you compare Europe - its for the most part a bloody fortress - last trip out of frankfurt I got screened 3x before I boarded my flight. Took another flight out of Munich same 3X screening before I boarded and every thing was uniform.

Honestly you think the yank screeners you've encountered could detect a bomb? Training and skills are lacking - there about as close as you can get to a mcdonalds employee.

Edited December 10, 2005 by britmaveric

[penzman]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about, if 'terrorists' keep slipping their bombs through nonetheless... have they?

Are security measures effective, or is a shoot-to-kill policy required as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With 2 lighters in my carry-on luggage and 2 more in my shoulder bag I was able to fly from San Jose, Costa Rica, transfered in El Salvador, landed at LAX, made it back on the plane to Hong Kong, transfered again and on to BKK.

Oh, and I also had a stainless steel pen and fingernail cutter in my shoulder bag.

[Butterfly]

The question is not "security" but how you implement "effective" security ? those ridiculous ban on knives or metallic things is just pointless. If they are determined to put something on board, they will one way or another.

So at the end it's pointless. You can't achieve total security and the cost to even come close to it would become too high at the end.

You can't trap an octopuss

[opothai]

The question is not "security" but how you implement "effective" security ? those ridiculous ban on knives or metallic things is just pointless. If they are determined to put something on board, they will one way or another.

So at the end it's pointless. You can't achieve total security and the cost to even come close to it would become too high at the end.

You can't trap an octopuss

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

upon leaving thailand on most occasions, i have seen every bodies bags searched by hand and every body get a thorough scanning, i can not speak for others but this kind of action makes me feel a little safer when flying.

and the cost split between 400 passengers would be minimal.

simple but effectiveand imho if this was adopted world wide as a standard it would not be pointless, thailand may not be known as world leaders but they have some of the simplest and best security before boarding at don muang than i have encountered any where

[zzap]

No, it's not effective, it's a joke, and it's preparing people to be scrutinised by a police state and is financed by the people against their will.

I was on a flight BKK-Manila, an airline considered to be at risk. My miinature Swiss penknife and my lighter were confiscated, they didn't find the 4" knife concealed in my handbaggage, which I delightfully pulled out for the inflight dinner, nobody raised an eyelid, only the friend I was travelling with, who was afraid of getting into trouble over it.

Well, done, security and polititians, the public are frightened and give you licence to search, destroy and shoot to kill!

Meanwhile, anybody serious about it, could blow up and sabotage whatever they like.

I am glad there are so few "terrorists" in the world, and they don't seem all that determined...

I feel sorry for the many who get pulled in by this propaganda...

[Phil B]

Yes it is tragic that a husband and probally a father lost his life. Do I think the Air Marshalls acted wrong? No ... given the information they had at the time. With how fast this incident took place and the reaction time afforded to the officers they made a hard dicision in the matter of a few seconds. No matter how many passangers you talk with they are going to see and hear something different. Of course not everyone is goint to hear him say "i have a bomb" there are too many people on a airplane to hear what is going on 10 rows in front or behind them.

If this man was bi polar why wasent he on medication. I read in this post that he was off his medication and that his wife forgot to give him is medication. If he was off his medication it is obvious that he wasnt ready to go without his meds. If he was bi polar for so many years why did his wife forget a daily routine that she has done for so long. Either way he had to have some sign that he wasnt stable before he got on the plane. Why didnt the wife inform the flight crew/airline officals that her husband was ill before boarding.

What some of you tree huggers dont understand is I have seen first hand what a back pack of explosives can do to an open air market. It dosent discriminate between man, woman or child. The only way to stop an attack like this is two to the chest and one to the head.

As for the marshalls being suspended with pay, that is common practice untill the investigation is complete. It dosent matter if there were 800 people that say he had a bomb and there was a bomb in his backpack. The marshalls would still be suspended or given desk work until the investigation is complete. The suspension in no way places the blame on the marshalls.

There are so many conflicting details, and depending on what news you watch and their political afiliation will determine what misinformation you will get.

Zzap I dont know what world you live in but it sure isnt the same one I live in. There are more terrorists in south east asia then anywhere in the world. Look in the southern prov. of Thailand. southern Philippines, Napal, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the list goes on. By defination these are terrorists.

The world would be in trouble if all of these groups got orginized and plenty of funding.

I will agree with everyone that security in the US is not the same from airport to airport or even checkpoint. I dont think the education requirement for these positions is very steep nor do i think that there is a lot of room for advancement. I wouldnt say the process is broken ... bent almost to the point of breaking. Hopefully changes will for the better will happen because of this incident.

[Ricardo]

I wonder if he still got his air-miles, for the trip ?

For being such a total pratt, he got what he deserved, just another case of natural-selection in action

[zzap]

Zzap I dont know what world you live in but it sure isnt the same one I live in.  There are more terrorists in south east asia then anywhere in the world. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Different ways of looking at the same thing.

Look in the southern prov. of Thailand. southern Philippines, Napal, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and the list goes on.  By defination these are terrorists. 

In each of these countries, the political situation is different, though there are links between certain groups in Thailand, the Philippines and Indonesia.

Do you have a figure as to how many 'terrorists' there are (I mean active ones, not people who might sympathise with their goals) how this compares to the total population, and how many of those may be likely to try and get a bomb onto an airplane?

I am not saying that there is no danger, or that it doesn't need to be dealt with, but I believe the risks are much lower than certain political interests and the sensationalist media make us believe.

[Boon Mee]

Makes one wonder what all the fuss about harrassing ordinary people and confiscating lighters and pen-knives is about

Maybe we should have seperate no-security, air marshall free airlines for those who feel that airline security isn't sweet and gentle enough for them.

Operative phrase of the entire thread.

"Civil Liberties" do not include charging the aisle of an airplane, digging in your backpack as a would-be bomber as they don't include yelling Fire in a crowded movie theater.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Boon Mee