A Lightbulb Went Off About Thai Culture...

[TongGarden]

I’m only looking for replies from people who have lived and worked in Thailand. If you’ve only visited Thailand as a tourist or only retired here, please don’t reply to this thread. I’m also not looking for replies from the rose-colored glasses brigade.

I’ve lived and worked here for almost 10 years and until tonight I thought I had a decent understanding of Thai culture, but recent events at work have left me looking for more answers. A lightbulb came on in my head tonight that has helped me understand the way things are here a lot more.

Management issued a directive that is completely impossible to carry out, not just for foreign staff but Thai staff as well. Amazingly, no Thai’s spoke up about it to management, but individually they acknowledged how ridiculous it really is. I finally realized that management stating something that looks better on paper (for example, setting goals that are a thousand times greater than is actually feasible) is far more important than saying something that is actually reasonable and do-able to over a hundred employees. Looking like a complete fool and requesting something everyone including them knows is impossible, is actually more desirable to management than setting reasonable targets. For the Thai staff, not saying the wrong thing, like speaking up to management, is far more important than having reasonable assignments to work on. So basically, what we have at my company is management requesting something they know is impossible. The employees also know it’s unachievable, but everyone just carries on doing their own thing and nobody says anything. Again, saying something that looks good and not saying the wrong thing is far more important to management than looking like a fool because everyone knows what you’re saying is ridiculous.

Further analysing this, I came to the conclusion that a lifetime of this behavior (from the early grades at school to a professional career) most likely leads to extreme incompetence. If you’ve grown up just having to say the right thing, doing anything you want because no one will correct you (not saying the wrong thing leads to no consequences), you really never become an expert at anything at the top levels of society (like running a gov’t), and completely incompetent at most daily activities at the lower level (like driving a car).

Going deeper, growing up in this environment breeds personality traits such as greed, lack of honestly and integrity, not taking things seriously, always wanting to have fun, and also leads to bottling up negative emotions due to lack of outlets. Often you can't say what you really want to, have to tow the line at all costs, not only at work but often in personal relationships too.

Knowing this, I hope in the future I’ll be able to laugh it off the next time management asks me to do something that is completely impossible. I’ll also understand the next time I watch the Thai staff say what a great idea and carry on doing the exact opposite. This also extends to the next time the gov’t makes an absolutely stupid announcement. Saying you're doing something that looks good is more important than actually doing the right thing (often those two things are exact opposites).

Yes, I actually do feel a bit better now after getting that out. This analysis has helped me to understand many events that have not only happened at work, but also while living here.

[Ijustwannateach]

^Very astute. Never mistake reality for what people say or ask for here. The worst arguments (and least necessary) happen between foreigners and Thai staff when the foreigners assume a silly request is real, and protest, while the Thai management have to defend what the boss said (because in their position they're not allowed to criticise him) but can't really demonstrate how what he said is reasonable, putting them between a logical rock and an impossibly hard place.

[onionluke]

Welcome to the new capitalism .

[kurnell]

I figured that out 10 years ago when I first worked for a Thai company. That is why I will never work for a Thai company again.

[ExpatJ]

I’m only looking for replies from people who have lived and worked in Thailand. If you’ve only visited Thailand as a tourist or only retired here, please don’t reply to this thread. I’m also not looking for replies from the rose-colored glasses brigade.

I’ve lived and worked here for almost 10 years and until tonight I thought I had a decent understanding of Thai culture, but recent events at work have left me looking for more answers. A lightbulb came on in my head tonight that has helped me understand the way things are here a lot more.

Management issued a directive that is completely impossible to carry out, not just for foreign staff but Thai staff as well. Amazingly, no Thai’s spoke up about it to management, but individually they acknowledged how ridiculous it really is. I finally realized that management stating something that looks better on paper (for example, setting goals that are a thousand times greater than is actually feasible) is far more important than saying something that is actually reasonable and do-able to over a hundred employees. Looking like a complete fool and requesting something everyone including them knows is impossible, is actually more desirable to management than setting reasonable targets. For the Thai staff, not saying the wrong thing, like speaking up to management, is far more important than having reasonable assignments to work on. So basically, what we have at my company is management requesting something they know is impossible. The employees also know it’s unachievable, but everyone just carries on doing their own thing and nobody says anything. Again, saying something that looks good and not saying the wrong thing is far more important to management than looking like a fool because everyone knows what you’re saying is ridiculous.

Further analysing this, I came to the conclusion that a lifetime of this behavior (from the early grades at school to a professional career) most likely leads to extreme incompetence. If you’ve grown up just having to say the right thing, doing anything you want because no one will correct you (not saying the wrong thing leads to no consequences), you really never become an expert at anything at the top levels of society (like running a gov’t), and completely incompetent at most daily activities at the lower level (like driving a car).

Going deeper, growing up in this environment breeds personality traits such as greed, lack of honestly and integrity, not taking things seriously, always wanting to have fun, and also leads to bottling up negative emotions due to lack of outlets. Often you can't say what you really want to, have to tow the line at all costs, not only at work but often in personal relationships too.

Knowing this, I hope in the future I’ll be able to laugh it off the next time management asks me to do something that is completely impossible. I’ll also understand the next time I watch the Thai staff say what a great idea and carry on doing the exact opposite. This also extends to the next time the gov’t makes an absolutely stupid announcement. Saying you're doing something that looks good is more important than actually doing the right thing (often those two things are exact opposites).

Yes, I actually do feel a bit better now after getting that out. This analysis has helped me to understand many events that have not only happened at work, but also while living here.

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

[IMA_FARANG]

Yes, i realised that many years ago also.

I think, if you look carefully, you will find in most Thai (other nationalities also) companies...you will find that a small core of compentant people at middle level are the ones who actually get the real work done.

This is not limited only to Thailand...but it also happens here.

The management is often at it's "competance level"...they were promoted up to the point where they have reached the peak of their ability to deal with their work. Because of that they aren't really selected for futher promotion.

(It's called the "Peter Principle"...look it up on the internet).

In one particular case a company i had to deal with often was supposedly "run" by a farang.

His secretary however, actually handled most of the actual problems and solved them.

Once I realised that, when I had to deal with that company, I arranged my visits to coincide with the farang boss taking his daily 2 hour "lunch break".

Amazingly, his secretary and I got more business decisions done in 30 minutes than hours with the farang "manager" ever would have accomplished.

That's the result of that "Peter Principle"...that executives are promoted by sucess...and therefore when they reach their level of cpmpetance they are no longer promoted....because they are not compentant for further promotion.

The end result, in Thailand as in other countries is tha after a while all the managers are just compentant enough to do their job, but not compentant enough for futher promotion.

And, because they are at their competance level...they make silly and unattainable goals...which those they supposedly supervise, will simply ignore.

Politicians are also a prime example of this "Peter Principle"...aren't they.

Edited February 21, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[bendix]

At the rist of being labelled an apologist, I don't see this as being a particularly Thai cultural characteristic. I've worked all across Asia, and it's Asian-wide.

[necronx99]

This would apply to pretty much every mission statement and corperation in the world.

[villagefarang]

I thought the "Peter Principle" elevated you to your level of incompetence before it stopped promoting you. Anyway it only took the OP 10 years to figure this subject out.

Edited February 21, 2012 by villagefarang

[phuturatica]

I think for most people in Thailand it's about not losing face. Speaking out and causing an uproar would just have them lose face or have the boss lose face. Also most Thai people working in companies are corrupt, no matter how high up or low in the company they are and everyone knows this yet many are unable to do anything about it so they just act like they have no idea.

I think the corruption scale in Thailand is what leads to greed, lack of honesty and integrity.

[llso]

I think you pretty much nailed it. It is a consequence of the culture of "Face". Also the idea to never question authority or superiors for fear of retribution. It is quite frustrating coming from a Western point of view which encourages problem solving and the ability to work together toward a common goal. It is extremely counterproductive, and as others have suggested is generally prevalent all across Asia.

LL

[bendix]

At the risk of repeating myself, the concept of Face is prevalent throughout Asia. Why is it solely a Thai thing?

The entire Japanese economy has been stagnating for 20 years because staff dont challenge senior management decisions.

[villagefarang]

I would argue that being Western argumentative in an Asian environment is what is counterproductive, at least with regards to ones own career.

[Berkshire]

I would argue that being Western argumentative in an Asian environment is what is counterproductive, at least with regards to ones own career.

It does take a high level of emotional intelligence (i.e., EQ), to adapt to an environment, which explains why some farangs are unable to adapt.

[bendejo]

You don't talk back to your boss, anywhere.

You do not tell the boss his directives are unattainable.

A lot has been said here about how the worker bees have to deal with it, but consider the perspective of The Boss.

For this, I suggest you look at the primary race in the US. There are two guys who have been poo-bahs in the private sector for decades, Herman Cain (who has dropped out, and wasn't really running in the first place) and Mitt Romney, a former venture capitalist. Both of these guys have been spouting what is obviously panderous drivel, and when interviewers (or other contenders) call them on it they go livid. Herman Cain was the more obvious, and easiest to rope in. An example from memory:

an interviewer brought up the subject of abortion (a big issue with conservatives), and Cain said well, that's up to the woman.

Interviewer: so you are pro-choice, in favor of abortion?

Cain: THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID! I am against abortion!

His tone and the facial expressions he gave the interviewer said "how dare you challenge my words!?!" It has been decades since anyone (with the exception of his wife, maybe) challenged him. Mitt is the same way, and everyone in the press knows when he's really thrown off he turns bright red, andf they all try to make that happen.

The whole deferrential system breeds arrogance, sometimes to incredible levels, and it gets especially entertaining when these executive types get waist-deep in their own excrement.

[Kilgore Trout]

Reminds me of the cultural revolution in China; they used to set goals for rice production that were impossible and when it wasn't achieved they just lied about and said it was.

Anyone who pointed out the obvious was executed or thrown in prison.

[thequietman]

I would argue that being Western argumentative in an Asian environment is what is counterproductive, at least with regards to ones own career.

very true. if the head of our department suggests unattainable goals, we just agree anyway. lots of yes,s and positive comments. when the meeting concludes, we have a good laugh and go back to doing our normal things. she may mention it again for a few weeks but after that its forgotten about.

also if they ask you to do Anything, after school meeting, drama club etc, just agree to attend and then just dont turn up. always say yes to everything. only took me 1 and a half years to get this and stop fighting the system. now work is so much more relaxing. dont take anything serious here, its pointless.

Edited February 21, 2012 by thequietman

[JurgenG]

At the rist of being labelled an apologist, I don't see this as being a particularly Thai cultural characteristic. I've worked all across Asia, and it's Asian-wide.

Actually it is world-wide.

If the OP wants an humoristic view of life in the office in the US, he should read "Dilbert". For England, there is the "The Office" TV serie (the original one of course).

Wearing rose tinted glasses is not good but neither is wearing blinkers.

[Slip]

Yes, you have a better understanding than you did at this time yesterday. Meetings at our place were always jolly- those who understood what you have described here and kept heads down for the purpose of getting the waste of time over with, and those who didn't and spent the entire meeting badgering and harassing the managers. That was until the management got tired of the hassle and stopped having meetings with the foreigners entirely.

It's much better now- our unrealistic orders are conveyed via our notice-board where we can ignore them at our leisure.

[TongGarden]

Thanks for the replies. Likes always on here, some are helpful, some are not. It's interesting to read posts from people who talked about their situations and gave their stories. I don't really see the point of coming on here to post you got this a long time before I did (forum one-upmanship is quite pathetic), or that it happens elsewhere in Asia. Also, this is definitely not the same bs that Western companies dish out - this is on a whole new level.

I do feel more confident in my ability to handle working here long-term. It's not easy to see the big picture when you're listening to this nonsense from management at the time, when you're thinking how it affects your job and your life in this country. But now I'll just play it the Thai way and carry on. Thanks!

[transam]

Thanks for the replies. Likes always on here, some are helpful, some are not. It's interesting to read posts from people who talked about their situations and gave their stories. I don't really see the point of coming on here to post you got this a long time before I did (forum one-upmanship is quite pathetic), or that it happens elsewhere in Asia. Also, this is definitely not the same bs that Western companies dish out - this is on a whole new level.

I do feel more confident in my ability to handle working here long-term. It's not easy to see the big picture when you're listening to this nonsense from management at the time, when you're thinking how it affects your job and your life in this country. But now I'll just play it the Thai way and carry on. Thanks!

+1

[yermanee]

I think for most people in Thailand it's about not losing face. Speaking out and causing an uproar would just have them lose face or have the boss lose face. Also most Thai people working in companies are corrupt, no matter how high up or low in the company they are and everyone knows this yet many are unable to do anything about it so they just act like they have no idea.

I think the corruption scale in Thailand is what leads to greed, lack of honesty and integrity.

You have it wrong.

Greed, jealousy, lack of honesty and/or integrity are human traits (amongst others) ever since mankind climbed out of the trees, and are the origin of corruption, not the other way around.

Yermanee

[Shotime]

I would like to second what Yermanee said. Although some have crawled a little further from the tree..

"a lifetime of this behavior (from the early grades at school to a professional career) most likely leads to extreme incompetence. If you’ve grown up just having to say the right thing, doing anything you want because no one will correct you (not saying the wrong thing leads to no consequences), you really never become an expert at anything at the top levels of society "

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

[StreetCowboy]

... EDIT ... redundant discussion deleted; thanks and acknowledgement to Villagefarang who stated it earlier...

Anyway - the Peter Principle states that people are promoted one level beyond their level of competence - until at last they find a job that they cannot do.

The converse - the Competer Principle, says that people who are competent do NOT get promoted, becuase then there would be no-one to do their job. Instead, people who are incompetent are given training to rectify their incompetence, and then promoted on the grounds of their greater skill set. Their line managers don't block the promotion, because they know that the incompetence is related to inability rather than lack of training.

The challenge for us all is to find out which principle suits us better, and then find a corresponding employer.

What makes the OP think that management themselves took their targets seriously? How much effort did you spend to find out what they really meant? I generally found it better to worry about how well I was doing my job, and let the shareholders and management worry about how well management were doing. But then, I have easily marketable skills... in the current fashion, at least

SC

Edited February 21, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[samsiam]

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

You must hang out in some interesting low life slums......

[samsiam]

It's true. They would never question a doctor or anyone in a similar position. They're scared of them. I'm guessing you're saying they're completely incompetent . I think it's true that 85 to 90% of the workforce anywhere are that way. I don't think they care,

I questioned a doctor the other day....he ignored my comments 3 times...the fourth time he got testy with me....I got testy with him...he got more testy with me and I called him a f'in idiot.....I am not thai, never will be and do not care about losing face...in fact I revel in it.

[StreetCowboy]

This would apply to pretty much every mission statement and corperation in the world.

Personally, I have had the pleasure to work for a company whose mission statement I wholeheartedly supported, and, to a large extent, management followed through on it. Sadly, through the process of corporate convergence, our mission statement changed - equally laudable, but less closely aligned with my own personal values, and less closely aligned with the ambitions of the managers that I worked with. Nevertheless, by being aware of my own values, and our corporate values, I was able to find myself a suitable niche in the company and do a good job that was appreciated by my client and my colleagues, with sufficient time to find another opportunity that aligned with my own personal values. Onward and upwards, s a friend said to me, twenty-five years ago, although in that instance he was talking about substance abuse...

SC

[Berkshire]

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

You must hang out in some interesting low life slums......

Yea, that's why I try to avoid places infested with too many farangs. As you say...slums.

[StreetCowboy]

In general i have found the farangs in Thailand to have far less integrity and be more dishonest, greedy and lazy than Thais.

You must hang out in some interesting low life slums......

Yea, that's why I try to avoid places infested with too many farangs. As you say...slums.

Generally, we've stayed in fairly intensively faranged developments, and our neighbours have been hard-working family people or a little younger. Of course, one rarely talks to one's neighbours, for fear of breaching a confidence, but they all seemed like fairly respectable people. I suppose if we associated with people who had to duck and dive to scrape a crust, who were skating on thin ice with their residency and so forth... then no doubt we might meet more scalliwags.

SC

EDIT: The common theme for the places we've lived in thailand has been excellent management of the condominium; for which we have been happy to pay over the odds (or conversely, to have a much smaller apartment)

Edited February 21, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[pauljones]

In the Thai work environment, the one that steals the most and works the least is the most admired. No?