Firing The Messenger

[JurgenG]

Reading a recent thread, I was worried that a person writing very negative posts about his company and Thailand was one of our employee. Very matter of fact I called our manager in Bangkok to enquire about an employee whose attitude was recently a matter for concern for the company. It seems I was wrong but our manager confirmed that the attitude of this employee, his unability to get along with his local colleagues, his constant criticizing of management decisions was becoming everyday more and more of a problem and it has been unofficially decided that this employee should have leaved the company by summer (we try to do things nicely in our company).

A question here to the expats (professionals) reading this forum. Expat are usually hired at management level or for young graduates groomed to become the future managers. Don't you think as so they have a duty to conserve a positive attitude and if they can't make the right choice and resign ? We all know that it is not always easy to find "locals" who perfectly fit with the company foreign culture that's why we hire expats. To whine all the time that things are not as good as they are at home doesn't help, actually it makes things more difficult for everybody. If you are not up to the challenge be honest with everybody including yourself, resign and move to a position or a country where you feel more comfortable. Don't you thing it's the right thing to do ?

Edited February 23, 2012 by JurgenG

[NaMah]

Well employees should certainly not disparage their firm or fellow employees in public. That is definitely grounds for dismissal or at least counseling.

[beechguy]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Edited February 23, 2012 by beechguy

[Soutpeel]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Yeap....We have a system in place were people get round the table and they can basically say anything they want with no consequences...it does actually work...but you need buy in from management to do this, in that there wil be no repercussions, obviously, personal attacks are not tolerated and provided the grievences are put across in a professional manner, they will be listened to and actioned if possible

[noise]

It takes a unique personality to successfully live and work overseas. For example, I saw one case where a military retiree who had lived with his family in 3 different countries during his career quit his first overseas job as a civilian in less than 30 days after arriving because they had to live among the local population and did not have an American community (i.e., the base) to use to pretend they were still in the U.S.

Many people just can not modify their approach to living, working, and socializing from the accepted norms we subconsciously absorb starting at birth in our own country to the accepted norms in a foreign land with a different culture. And even when people recognize the difference, many can not just accept it is different without judging it must be inferior because it is different.

Zenophobia takes on many forms.

[robblok]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Yeap....We have a system in place were people get round the table and they can basically say anything they want with no consequences...it does actually work...but you need buy in from management to do this, in that there wil be no repercussions, obviously, personal attacks are not tolerated and provided the grievences are put across in a professional manner, they will be listened to and actioned if possible

That style is one of the things i loved in the Netherlands. People would listen to new idea's and your seniority or level did not come into account. Of course the idea must have had merits. Here people really cant express themselves good because of the boundaries in Thai companies.

[tinfoilhat]

given the abundance of farang out there looking for decently paid salaried positions out there, i would say that the onus is indeed on the employee to get it together.

i know of about 15 very well paid expats whose jobs were basically sold out from under them recently when the company changed ownership, and i too was laid off a few years back with a very nice golden parachute when my multi-national outsourced the department i headed here.

it was at that time i realized how highly competitive the the market for decent jobs here truly is, and low salaries offered people based locally are. It is very easy to become overqualified for work here or just seen as too expensive. there is always someone else out there that would jump at the chance to do your job.

fortunately they ended up outsourcing to me and in the end i do less work for more money, and dont have to put up with the corporate bullshit, nor am i held hostage in an office when things are slow. This would not have happened had my attitude been poor.

[Soutpeel]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Yeap....We have a system in place were people get round the table and they can basically say anything they want with no consequences...it does actually work...but you need buy in from management to do this, in that there wil be no repercussions, obviously, personal attacks are not tolerated and provided the grievences are put across in a professional manner, they will be listened to and actioned if possible

Here people really cant express themselves good because of the boundaries in Thai companies.

It depends on the company and how seriously the managment take this, we have many Thai nationals who do become quite vocal, but over the years we have had to instill this confidence in people to speak up....strangely enough its the management who has to drive this....if management is insincere, then schemes like this will fall flat on its face very quickly

[bendejo]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Yeap....We have a system in place were people get round the table and they can basically say anything they want with no consequences...it does actually work...but you need buy in from management to do this, in that there wil be no repercussions, obviously, personal attacks are not tolerated and provided the grievences are put across in a professional manner, they will be listened to and actioned if possible

No slight meant to you or the company you work for, but in my experience there is no such thing as off the record. What's said is heard, never to be erased.

Very similar to the boss who, at company gatherings says "my door is always open," encouraging all employees to chat with him. Pretty good chance that if you take him/her up on it you will not be working there much longer. I've brought this up with others over the years and they say it's pretty much the same everywhere.

[Berkshire]

Jurgen's question: "Don't you think as so they have a duty to conserve a positive attitude and if they can't make the right choice and resign ?"

ANS: Absolutely. Further, I believe that those in management positions need to be held to a higher standard. And this certainly includes refraining from complaining about leadership decisions at every opportunity. Of course, you should never compromise your ethics for the sake of the company. But the whinings that the OP is referring to (could it be that "lightbulb went off about Thai culture" thread?) is mostly likely self-inflicted problems. You know, where the foreigner decides that his way is always the right way, no matter how wrong he is.

[JurgenG]

That style is one of the things i loved in the Netherlands. People would listen to new idea's and your seniority or level did not come into account. Of course the idea must have had merits. Here people really cant express themselves good because of the boundaries in Thai companies.

I think people who come from small countries (I'm not German ) have an advantage when it comes to expatriation. It's engraved in our genetic code that to be successful we have to compromise with other cultures. It doesn't mean we have to forget our roots and our culture but at a professional level we need to compromise with other people habits and culture to achieve our goals.

[robblok]

That style is one of the things i loved in the Netherlands. People would listen to new idea's and your seniority or level did not come into account. Of course the idea must have had merits. Here people really cant express themselves good because of the boundaries in Thai companies.

I think people who come from small countries (I'm not German ) have an advantage when it comes to expatriation. It's engraved in our genetic code that to be successful we have to compromise with other cultures. It doesn't mean we have to forget our roots and our culture but at a professional level we need to compromise with other people habits and culture to achieve our goals.

I can moan with the best of them, but you wont hear me complain that there is no Dutch cheese here or no good milk. 5555 I love my time here but when something is bothering me i will complain about it.

When your in an other country you really have to compromise but i wont cross some lines. I will never grovel the way i see many of the Thais do for their superiors. I can hear directly when my gf is on the phone with one of te bosses of tour companies or with her friends (besides of course the subject). She sometimes complains about it with me and i ask why she does not say anything about it to her bosses. She says that is just not done.

[dave111223]

Why is the subject "Firing The Messenger"...?

[Soutpeel]

Why is the subject "Firing The Messenger"...?

"It seems I was wrong but our manager confirmed that the attitude of this employee, his unability to get along with his local colleagues, his constant criticizing of management decisions was becoming everyday more and more of a problem and it has been unofficially decided that this employee should have leaved the company by summer"

This to me, being a manager shows very poor managment skills and this action is exactly what "bendejo" was on about.....instead of palying the backstabing game as appears to be the case why dont you sit down with the indivdual concerned and explore why the attitude is the way it is and give the guy the option to change his ways...?..obviously with the understanding that if he cant change his ways, then he will be shown the door.

Actions such as the above are the reason why there is always distrust between managment and employees, and unless management play an open and sincere "game"...the status quo will always be maintained...

[JurgenG]

Why is the subject "Firing The Messenger"...?

"It seems I was wrong but our manager confirmed that the attitude of this employee, his unability to get along with his local colleagues, his constant criticizing of management decisions was becoming everyday more and more of a problem and it has been unofficially decided that this employee should have leaved the company by summer"

This to me, being a manager shows very poor managment skills and this action is exactly what "bendejo" was on about.....instead of palying the backstabing game as appears to be the case why dont you sit down with the indivdual concerned and explore why the attitude is the way it is and give the guy the option to change his ways...?..obviously with the understanding that if he cant change his ways, then he will be shown the door.

Actions such as the above are the reason why there is always distrust between managment and employees, and unless management play an open and sincere "game"...the status quo will always be maintained...

Who is playing the backstabbing game ? And who said that the employee has not been given fair warnings ?

Also it is your interpretation (based on what ???) that there is a general distrust between employees and management. In our company if a manager lost the trust and the confidence of his team he has to go. Whining about the "locals" is not an acceptable excuse. If a manager can't achieve his objectives, he is replaced, So as a manager if you want to stay you have to gain the trust of your team. A person who can't get along with his colleagues has no future in our organization. For him and for the company it's better he leaves.

A last question. There are about 10 person in this guy department. Why should we keep this guy and in the process makes the life of 9 other people miserable ? Because of this guy the productivity of the team is declining, some people we may like to keep are going to resign. And we will lose the confidence of our local employees who will think we keep the guy just because he is a foreigner, which obviously would be a bad form of discrimination. How can that be considered "good management" ?

[Berkshire]

There are about 10 person in this guy department. Why should we keep this guy and in the process makes the life of 9 other people miserable ? Because of this guy the productivity of the team is declining, some people we may like to keep are going to resign. And we will lose the confidence of our local employees who will think we keep the guy just because he is a foreigner, which obviously would be a bad form of discrimination. How can that be considered "good management" ?

Man, it seems pretty clear that you need to unload this guy quick!

[TongGarden]

Jurgen, if you're referring to the thread I started a few days ago, I assure you I'm not one of your employees. I come from an industry where we were trained to speak up, to ask questions, to solve problems, and not doing so and saving face can and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of people. I find it quite sad that there are Western managers here who would go to great lengths to track down an employee who asks questions.

Like others have suggested here, you may want to listen to what your employee has to say. I've seen it quite a few times in Thailand where Westerns quit or get fired often at the same company, and management takes the easy road and instead of looking at themselves. They say they can't find good Westerns in Thailand. Then those same people who got fired go on to be successful at another company that has an environment that is more of a compromise between Western and Thai culture, not only 100% the Thai way or the highway. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what it is that has caused this person to develop a bad attitude and become dissillusioned with the environment at your company?

I would also like to caution you that firing somebody because of asking questions or having a bad attitude is against the Thai labor code, so you will have to pay appropriate severence. After a few years of employment the amount can be significant. Please note that Thai labor law is very clear that being on a contract does not mean you can just let the contract expire to terminate someone - not renewing a contract is the same as termination and therefore severance is required. If it was that easy to turn a permanent employee in a temporary one by means of a contract every employee in Thailand would be on contracts. The easiest tests to apply are first if the employment was for a special project, like supervising the construction of a bridge. Then the employment is temporary and naturally terminates at then end of the project. The other test is if the position continues after the employee has been terminated and a replacement must be found. A teacher for example must obviously be replaced so that position is permanent no matter how short the contract is.

[h90]

"It seems I was wrong but our manager confirmed that the attitude of this employee, his unability to get along with his local colleagues, his constant criticizing of management decisions was becoming everyday more and more of a problem and it has been unofficially decided that this employee should have leaved the company by summer"

Maybe that guy was the only one which wasn't corrupt?

That was in one of my former jobs, I dig out all the bookkeeping, production orders, money transfers, company documents. I found black productions, fake customer that does not exist (and not pay), 10.000 USD in cash were taken without signature or invoice, and someone of the foreign management tried to make the company his private property.

Well I left the company. Many things were proofed later. But I did definitely not come along good with the others....

[JurgenG]

Jurgen, if you're referring to the thread I started a few days ago, I assure you I'm not one of your employees. I come from an industry where we were trained to speak up, to ask questions, to solve problems, and not doing so and saving face can and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of people. I find it quite sad that there are Western managers here who would go to great lengths to track down an employee who asks questions.

You started a thread about management who doesn't accept criticism but it seems yourself are not very open to people having different opinion than yours

Like others have suggested here, you may want to listen to what your employee has to say. I've seen it quite a few times in Thailand where Westerns quit or get fired often at the same company, and management takes the easy road and instead of looking at themselves. They say they can't find good Westerns in Thailand. Then those same people who got fired go on to be successful at another company that has an environment that is more of a compromise between Western and Thai culture, not only 100% the Thai way or the highway. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what it is that has caused this person to develop a bad attitude and become dissillusioned with the environment at your company?

Personal problems made worse by excessive consumption of alcohol (and maybe drugs). Quite sad for someone who is not even 30. Good background but it seems he started to hang around with the wrong crowd.

I would also like to caution you that firing somebody because of asking questions or having a bad attitude is against the Thai labor code, so you will have to pay appropriate severence. After a few years of employment the amount can be significant. Please note that Thai labor law is very clear that being on a contract does not mean you can just let the contract expire to terminate someone - not renewing a contract is the same as termination and therefore severance is required. If it was that easy to turn a permanent employee in a temporary one by means of a contract every employee in Thailand would be on contracts. The easiest tests to apply are first if the employment was for a special project, like supervising the construction of a bridge. Then the employment is temporary and naturally terminates at then end of the project. The other test is if the position continues after the employee has been terminated and a replacement must be found. A teacher for example must obviously be replaced so that position is permanent no matter how short the contract is.

What is a few hundred thousand bahts (worse case scenario) to get rid of a trouble maker for a company having a turnover of hundreds of millions of US$ ? Whatever the cost of firing someone, it's always less than the cost to keep someone who brings your team down.

But lets talk of the cost for the employee. The expat community is quite small. Being labelled a trouble maker can sign the end of a carrier in a given country. We all compete again each others but we all face the same problems. A case in point is Cathay Pacific 49ers.

And it's not only the management that resents trouble makers, colleagues too don't appreciate someone who is responsible for a bad atmosphere at the work place. Once you've been fired you will realize how little support you have from your former colleagues. Is it really worth the trouble ?

Edited February 24, 2012 by JurgenG

[scorecard]

Maybe you guys should listen to him, maybe he has some valid points.

Agree, has anybody in management, in your company, sat this guy down and asked him if he's happy with his work, his career prospects, his working environment, salary & benefits, etc? And of course even more important, if this has happened, did the 'interviewer' really listen and clarifications, etc? And was the 'interviewer the CEO?

Many times as an outside consultant I have conducted such interviews and then shared the comments with the CEO. On many occasions the CEO has been shocked / learned lots of things which urgently need attention.

If there has been an interview, and the guy says 'everything is fine' then their is serious reason to be concerned, even if his work output is OK.

[scorecard]

Jurgen, if you're referring to the thread I started a few days ago, I assure you I'm not one of your employees. I come from an industry where we were trained to speak up, to ask questions, to solve problems, and not doing so and saving face can and has lead to the deaths of hundreds of people. I find it quite sad that there are Western managers here who would go to great lengths to track down an employee who asks questions.

You started a thread about management who doesn't accept criticism but it seems yourself are not very open to people having different opinion than yours

Like others have suggested here, you may want to listen to what your employee has to say. I've seen it quite a few times in Thailand where Westerns quit or get fired often at the same company, and management takes the easy road and instead of looking at themselves. They say they can't find good Westerns in Thailand. Then those same people who got fired go on to be successful at another company that has an environment that is more of a compromise between Western and Thai culture, not only 100% the Thai way or the highway. Wouldn't it be interesting to find out what it is that has caused this person to develop a bad attitude and become dissillusioned with the environment at your company?

Personal problems made worse by excessive consumption of alcohol (and maybe drugs). Quite sad for someone who is not even 30. Good background but it seems he started to hang around with the wrong crowd.

I would also like to caution you that firing somebody because of asking questions or having a bad attitude is against the Thai labor code, so you will have to pay appropriate severence. After a few years of employment the amount can be significant. Please note that Thai labor law is very clear that being on a contract does not mean you can just let the contract expire to terminate someone - not renewing a contract is the same as termination and therefore severance is required. If it was that easy to turn a permanent employee in a temporary one by means of a contract every employee in Thailand would be on contracts. The easiest tests to apply are first if the employment was for a special project, like supervising the construction of a bridge. Then the employment is temporary and naturally terminates at then end of the project. The other test is if the position continues after the employee has been terminated and a replacement must be found. A teacher for example must obviously be replaced so that position is permanent no matter how short the contract is.

What is a few hundred thousand bahts (worse case scenario) to get rid of a trouble maker for a company having a turnover of hundreds of millions of US$ ? Whatever the cost of firing someone, it's always less than the cost to keep someone who brings your team down.

But lets talk of the cost for the employee. The expat community is quite small. Being labelled a trouble maker can sign the end of a carrier in a given country. We all compete again each others but we all face the same problems. A case in point is Cathay Pacific 49ers.

And it's not only the management that resents trouble makers, colleagues too don't appreciate someone who is responsible for a bad atmosphere at the work place. Once you've been fired you will realize how little support you have from your former colleagues. Is it really worth the trouble ?

Agree, if this person is causing serious damage, then go through the process of termination, and yes it does cost.

There's also the other side of this picture. As already mentioned this guy may be:

- Disrupting the work output

- Negatively affecting the work quality

- Making it unpleasant for the other staff.

And there is also the strong possibility, if it's not addressed, that the other employees see management as ineffective, incapable of managing this person, unfair, etc. All of this is highly undesirable.

And as long as it's not addressed, it sends a message to the other staff, that this type of behavior is OK.

[Soutpeel]

You started a thread about management who doesn't accept criticism but it seems yourself are not very open to people having different opinion than yours

It would appear you wont accept criticism either, based on an eariler response to one of my posts !!

Further the whole basis of your thread is to do with people writing negative remarks about a company, but it it would seem to me, you are doing no different when it comes to this employee preceived conduct....you are stating on a public forum that you believe he drinks excessively and may possibly takes drugs ?....do you have any hard facts to support this ? ....the employee concerned may in fact be reading these comments

Why do the words pot kettle and black come to mind ?.....further, as a manager you should not be airing your dirty laundry in public either

[Soutpeel]

Many times as an outside consultant I have conducted such interviews and then shared the comments with the CEO. On many occasions the CEO has been shocked / learned lots of things which urgently need attention.

Yeap...excellent point

[tw25rw]

Sountds to me like they have a depressive side which isn't going to get any better while they are in that environment, wherever they are in the world. I would buy them a ticket home and wish them luck in the future outside the company.

[theblether]

It doesn't matter if your an ex-pat or not, some people don't fit and that is it. Every professional company in the world with any size of workforce will have people like this in it.

Strangely, these people who can be so disruptive in one company can go to another and become stars. It's all part of the learning process.

I remember years ago watching a programme about young men applying to be fighter pilots in the RAF. You can picture the style and attitude of the guys who made it to the latter stages of the selection process.

On being told that they had not succeeded many of them burst into tears. The Officer selecting observed that for many of these young guys this was the first time they had experienced failure in their entire lives, and they couldn't understand or handle it.

Many people make what they think are dream moves, and find that they too cannot handle it. Some choose to hold their hands up and admit it, more choose to try to demonise the people, company, or other parts of their surroundings.

That is the way they can justify to themselves that it's not their fault that the move has gone wrong. This applies to ex-pat work forces, and it applies to people emigrating too.

Right now there has been a surge of British ex-pats returning from Australia, you can guarantee that a high percentage will be stressing the negatives of the country ( in their eyes ) to justify their return.

On that basis.........how many people have we seen demonise Thailand in the same way??

Human nature, blame everyone, everything, but ourselves.

Edited February 24, 2012 by theblether