Jatuporn, Suthep Battle Over 2010 Crackdown: Thai Charter Amendment

[tlansford]

- sniper -

Either you're a bad liar, or your memory is somewhat 'red-filtered'.

http://www.theaustra...o-1225852976016

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4119607

http://www.atimes.co...a/LD13Ae03.html

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4461130

Thanks for the links. So was it finally determined that he was killed by a grenade or shot? Also, what is the consensus on who killed him? Looking into this one death, it seems to not be clear.

As for memory and lying, I have read reports which claim that the first death (not injuries) due to grenades was on April 22nd.

The links I provided refer to a grenade attack mortally wounding Colonel Romklao Thuwatham and four other army personel. No mention of being shot. In 2010 alone there were many grenade attacks with probably 50 - 60 grenades exploded. At/near BTS Saladaeng five on the 22nd of April.

As for having read a 'report claiming ...', I believe you in this. I've also encountered interesting theories while searching, including 'Elvis lives' and 'NASA moonlanding is a hoax'.

Come on Rubl, you know I won't BS you on this...

3 of your 4 posts say how he was killed, and that it was from a grenade, albeit one is from Sondi, and the other from the Nation, and who knows about the 3rd, they could be repeating what Sondi said.

In looking into it, I found Sondi's Manager Online pushing a conspiracy theory that the colonel was shot by subordinates (OK, Sondi is in outerspace, I know, I know, ...) and another that alluded to the same thing but using the grenade tactic... and the conspiracy that he was killed/eliminated comes from the far right. The reference to that conspiracy and a copy of the article from the manager online was on a different forum's site.

Then you would think that the autopsies would just fix that question - then there is this which looks at the DSI autopsy reports stating all deaths were due to being shot - PPT puts that report into question precisely due to this colonel :

http://thaipolitical...protest-deaths/

As for the timeline reports talking about when things happened, one of the comments regarding fatalities from grenades is here :

http://en.wikipedia....itical_protests

Then we have this where the epochtimes regurgitates information from The Nation and another of it's papers saying :

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/opinion/thai-democracy-organized-subversion-red-shirt-thaksin-33372.html

According to the Bangkok-based newspaper The Nation, Pol. Maj. Gen. Disthaporn Sasamit, the spokesman for the Internal Security Operations Commanded (ISOC), said on Monday, "Either an active or a retired military officer identified Col. Romklao Thuwatham for a gunman to take him out with a M79 grenade."; Disthaporn further stated that this attack was "planned by the other side" meaning the rioters and part of a "revenge". Other local media report that witnesses saw a light flare shoot up into the sky before the shot was fired at Romklao directly, killing him and injuring the other officers around him.

So there is information : and so far it comes from The Nation, Sondi, the military, government TV, ISOC, and the DSI. The information doesn't agree, isn't consistent, and is sometime bizarre.

Couldn't the DSI have at least gotten the autopsy results right? I mean is an autopsy report on a Colonel too much to ask for?

So thanks for the links.

[Babcock]

And it's crap.

This is video from April 10th. I recognise it.It's shot from the redshirt side. Yes the army did use tear gas.

1000 people were injured that night and 19/25 died. This video has been edited to suggest that the thai soldiers were complient and yet the redshirts were just all fired up.

Notice the strange patriotic music being blasted at the people. The sense of unreality in the situation.

We hear gunshots but what is their aim and are they aiming at any one?

How is it then that 1000 people were injured and 9/25 died that night?

No sense of that here

[Babcock]

I've just seen the last of the video where they show bullet casings that were fired. Problem downloading.

Lethal force was used indiscriminately.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

http://thaipolitical...protest-deaths/

more removed ...

So there is information : and so far it comes from The Nation, Sondi, the military, government TV, ISOC, and the DSI. The information doesn't agree, isn't consistent, and is sometime bizarre.

Couldn't the DSI have at least gotten the autopsy results right? I mean is an autopsy report on a Colonel too much to ask for?

So thanks for the links.

Sorry I removed some, hope you don't mind.

I'm afraid you're correct in accusing theNation of sloppyness

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/08/23/national/Investigators-fail-to-identify-killers-of-foreign--30136412.html

As far as I know / read / can find the DSI has been consistent in the cause of death regarding Colonel Romklao (posthumously made General I think), scrapnel from a grenade fired at him and his staff.

[rubl]

I've just seen the last of the video where they show bullet casings that were fired. Problem downloading.

Lethal force was used indiscriminately.

Read Robert A.'s report submitted to the ICC. It has 'thousands of rounds fired into the protesters'.

Amazing Thailand, no general 'promoted to an inactive position' for having soldiers who can't seem to hit anything

BTW don't bother about the clip, by now most may have been attached here.

[tlansford]

begin removed ...

http://thaipolitical...protest-deaths/

more removed ...

So there is information : and so far it comes from The Nation, Sondi, the military, government TV, ISOC, and the DSI. The information doesn't agree, isn't consistent, and is sometime bizarre.

Couldn't the DSI have at least gotten the autopsy results right? I mean is an autopsy report on a Colonel too much to ask for?

So thanks for the links.

Sorry I removed some, hope you don't mind.

I'm afraid you're correct in accusing theNation of sloppyness

http://www.nationmul...--30136412.html

As far as I know / read / can find the DSI has been consistent in the cause of death regarding Colonel Romklao (posthumously made General I think), scrapnel from a grenade fired at him and his staff.

Thanks for the info. Yes, he was made general.

We hardly need to spend more time on it here, but I found this conspiracy story coming from Sondi bizarre.

[TAWP]

There's at least one video of a Black Shirt doing exactly that. Funny you haven't seen it.

Oh, here it is.

That's funny, that shows absolutely nothing like I described. It does show a black clad "civilian" firing a couple of shots and then running away. It does not show a "black shirt" taking guns from a dead red shirt. Never mind, please try harder next time.

FAKE FAKE FAKE!!!!

Look at the crash barrier, the road, the perspective and the MIB appears to be about 2.5 foot tall.

It's a joke!

Wow you're really trying,NOT.

Please, can we try to argue with some facts and not something...completely different?

This is pathetic.

[waza]

_{thisvideo shows the riots of April 10th, including Blackshirts firing M67 granade launchers ect.\}

Edited February 25, 2012 by waza

[waza]

here is video of the granade attack that killed the Colonel Romklao

http://youtu.be/JfT89K90MvI

and this is video of blackshirt firing M79 granades and blackshirt snipers at the protest.

Edited February 25, 2012 by waza

[OzMick]

And it's crap. This is video from April 10th. I recognise it.It's shot from the redshirt side. Yes the army did use tear gas. 1000 people were injured that night and 19/25 died. This video has been edited to suggest that the thai soldiers were complient and yet the redshirts were just all fired up. Notice the strange patriotic music being blasted at the people. The sense of unreality in the situation. We hear gunshots but what is their aim and are they aiming at any one? How is it then that 1000 people were injured and 9/25 died that night? No sense of that here

It would be really interesting to hear your explanation for the deaths of the RTA members. Did the commander and his staff spontaneously explode causing the army to run amok killing at random very few people? Did the other soldiers die of premature old age?

Video of the RTA show them equipped for crowd dispersal, shields, batons, helmets and tear gas, a few with shotguns and rifles. So how is it that the scenario suddenly turns into urban warfare? Who benefits from this?

[whybother]

There was no use of tear gas, water cannon. They only came with their guns.

There was use of water cannons when the red shirts stormed Thaicom. It didn't do much good.

and here I quote from Prachetai:

"Another clash broke out on April 9 when the UDD protesters, led by Jatuporn Prompan, Nathawut Saikua, Arisman Pongruangrong, and Karun Hosakul, went to the Thaicom satellite station in Pathumthani province to restore their People's Channel cable television to the air; its transmission had been disconnected by the government after the declaration of a state of emergency. The soldiers guarding the satellite station used shields and batons, water cannon, and teargas to stop the red-shirted protesters, but withdrew when they became outnumbered. As a result of the clash, 16 protesters and 5 soldiers were injured. The UDD protesters ended the siege of the satellite station after they reached an agreement with Lt. Gen. Krisda Pankongchuen, the Region 1 Provincial Police chief, soldiers, and the Thaicom executives that the People's Channel broadcast signal would be reconnected. The station remains partially blocked."

Following on from this the redshirts regained control of their staion, discovered an arms cache which they returned to the soldiers and given assurances about the station they left and the station was promptly re-seized by the army and "fully blocked" subsequently as I quote from Prachetai:

Thailand: End Political Violence, Bring Offenders to Justice

Tue, 13/04/2010 - 15:15

.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

Thanks for confirming that there WAS use of water cannons and tear gas.

[OzMick]

and here I quote from Prachetai:

"Another clash broke out on April 9 when the UDD protesters, led by Jatuporn Prompan, Nathawut Saikua, Arisman Pongruangrong, and Karun Hosakul, went to the Thaicom satellite station in Pathumthani province to restore their People's Channel cable television to the air; its transmission had been disconnected by the government after the declaration of a state of emergency. The soldiers guarding the satellite station used shields and batons, water cannon, and teargas to stop the red-shirted protesters, but withdrew when they became outnumbered. As a result of the clash, 16 protesters and 5 soldiers were injured. The UDD protesters ended the siege of the satellite station after they reached an agreement with Lt. Gen. Krisda Pankongchuen, the Region 1 Provincial Police chief, soldiers, and the Thaicom executives that the People's Channel broadcast signal would be reconnected. The station remains partially blocked."

Following on from this the redshirts regained control of their staion, discovered an arms cache which they returned to the soldiers and given assurances about the station they left and the station was promptly re-seized by the army and "fully blocked" subsequently as I quote from Prachetai:

Thailand: End Political Violence, Bring Offenders to Justice

Tue, 13/04/2010 - 15:15

.

Which part of this do you disagree with?

do you ever think about what you copy and paste? When the red shirts attacked the satellite station, they were met with standard crowd control measures. Even though they had arms, those defending the station did not use them. Yes they made an agreement with the mob, and it was subsequently broken, most likely by senior officers/politicians adverse to mob rule.

The next night, the RTA was in similar crowd control/dispersal mode when attacked.

BTW "grenade" is shouted when and IF observed. At night, an incoming M-79 is almost impossible to see - they don't glow in the dark. Normally the characteristic "whump" of the launcher would give some warning, but would be very difficult to hear over the crowd noise. Amsterdam is an adept at providing experts to make irrefutable but irrelevant statements to obscure the truth. Those with little or no knowledge of the situation then swallow his verbal garbage.

[AleG]

Have you watched the videos?

France 24 news comes to mind.

Let's be specific right.

There is 1 explosion in front of the camera and then teh bodies are rushed through.

The are left on the ground; not in the recovery position.

So they could drown in their own blood.

It's all there.

Then the soldiers panicked and ran about firing wildly. Totally undisciplined.

It has been pointed out by Robert Armstrongs military expert that had grenades been fired at the soldiers and were seen standard military practice is to shout "grenade" and hit the deck.

None of which happened. Hence his view that said grenade was rolled across the floor to the colonel.

There was 1 other explosion but I don't believe any other casualties.

Why only 2? If these MIB's really were intent on causing mayhem, and we know of a redshirt who was accused by the BIB of firing no less than 50 grenades at the army from Lumpini park,

why so little from them. It doesn't add up.

Bangkok didn't burn to the ground. All this histrionics from the yellowshirts on here day after day trying to justify their coup(s).

There was a civil disturbance where men and boys armed with slingshots ranged up against a heavily armed army in the middle of a capital city.

When they entered the red shirt camp the army found 5 kalashnikovs and 7 very old american rifles which I presume had been confiscated by teh red shirt guards to prevent people/malcontents entering a crowded area armed.

Unreasonable assumption? I don't think so. Why weren't these guns trained on the thai soldiers?

Why were the soldiers found in the army APC on teh night of the 10th April released back to their units by the hated red shirts?

It pleases you lot not to understand these questions and it begs the question what were the coups about?

The only justification has become this idea of Thaksin's orwellian all encompassing corruption which is all utter bull.

Why were the soldiers weaponry seized at the television tower earlier returned to those soldiers?

Peddling bulls**r from a bulls**t peddler. Credibility reaching absolute zero.

If you can see an M79 coming at night, have time to utter grenade! and run for cover before it explodes on impact you'll make a fortune training elite military forces.

Wake up and realize the reason all those people died was the result of the UDD and Thaksin electoral strategy.

[AleG]

There's at least one video of a Black Shirt doing exactly that. Funny you haven't seen it.

Oh, here it is.

That's funny, that shows absolutely nothing like I described. It does show a black clad "civilian" firing a couple of shots and then running away. It does not show a "black shirt" taking guns from a dead red shirt. Never mind, please try harder next time.

FAKE FAKE FAKE!!!!

Look at the crash barrier, the road, the perspective and the MIB appears to be about 2.5 foot tall.

It's a joke!

Wow you're really trying,NOT.

What is it with Red Shirt supporters that just can't handle reality? Must be a prerequisite, "take the Red Pill now reality is what the zealots say, don't worry about facts and evidence."

[MikeOboe57]

Sorry a grenade when rolled across the floor with the pin out will explode. Every boy knoes this .

I'm surprised you don't. Don't give me lectures on what precise weapon was used because you really don't know.

You're only guided by what you have been told by those prosecuting the attacks on the protesters.

What nonsense you write.

If you'd bothered to read Amsterdam's report it stated the redshirts and the army were about 90 meters apart. Too far to throw a grenade they state.

If a redshirt had aimed a grenade launcher at the soldiers methinks it might have been spotted but otherwise what an incredible shot.

To hit a group of men; at night, standing behind other men and not in the "firing line". They weren't at the front of the queue.

The commander was near the front I think guaging the situation

"Sorry a grenade when rolled across the floor with the pin out will explode" and take the "roller" out together with the victim.The suggestion by your Mr. A is plain BS.

The M79 grenade launcher is accurate up to 150 m so the commander was an easy target for the "blackshirts". The group was marked by a laser and the assassin fired his M79 from the cover of the crowd. The soldiers had no time to react as the M79 explodes on impact.

Mr. Amsterdam's desperate fairytale that the conscripts or some officers killed their commander, Col Romklao, at short range with an M76 handgrenade is nothing but a hilarious conspiracy theory. If Mr. Amsterdam can't do any better, Khun Thaksin should stop paying him.

If you are really interested in the truth Mr. Amsterdam's tales are not the right place to look for it. But your constant referring to his propaganda and your petty personal attacks show that you are not.

[Reasonableman]

Sorry a grenade when rolled across the floor with the pin out will explode. Every boy knoes this .

I'm surprised you don't. Don't give me lectures on what precise weapon was used because you really don't know.

You're only guided by what you have been told by those prosecuting the attacks on the protesters.

What nonsense you write.

If you'd bothered to read Amsterdam's report it stated the redshirts and the army were about 90 meters apart. Too far to throw a grenade they state.

If a redshirt had aimed a grenade launcher at the soldiers methinks it might have been spotted but otherwise what an incredible shot.

To hit a group of men; at night, standing behind other men and not in the "firing line". They weren't at the front of the queue.

The commander was near the front I think guaging the situation

"Sorry a grenade when rolled across the floor with the pin out will explode" and take the "roller" out together with the victim.The suggestion by your Mr. A is plain BS.

The M79 grenade launcher is accurate up to 150 m so the commander was an easy target for the "blackshirts". The group was marked by a laser and the assassin fired his M79 from the cover of the crowd. The soldiers had no time to react as the M79 explodes on impact.

Mr. Amsterdam's desperate fairytale that the conscripts or some officers killed their commander, Col Romklao, at short range with an M76 handgrenade is nothing but a hilarious conspiracy theory. If Mr. Amsterdam can't do any better, Khun Thaksin should stop paying him.

If you are really interested in the truth Mr. Amsterdam's tales are not the right place to look for it. But your constant referring to his propaganda and your petty personal attacks show that you are not.

[Nickymaster]

That's when Jatuporn spoke up, saying the people who died did not hold any weapons

Yet another lie from Jatuporn.

If that is so; I challenge you to post a photo of a red shirt who has been shot dead with a weapon in their hands. There are hundreds of photos of red shirts shot dead unarmed.

I challenge you to explain how the 20 or so soldiers and officials died.

Edited February 26, 2012 by Nickymaster

[gemini81]

begin removed ...

One day there will be justice.

Now if only we could have, I would applaud it. Still sifting through all 'evidence' and only extracting the truth rather than hearsay or opinions ... Whenever someone comes with 'new' evidence it seems a rehash of old stuff. Even Dept. PM Chalerm can't give new info. Still waiting for what he promised a few months ago, by the way.

I am in agreement with you regarding new information. There is still precious little to be found on many of the important details. I think that more accounts and reports will be forthcoming, but I too am waiting.

Regarding casualties from grenades on April 10th, do you have a link to that? I have only found information that the first deaths resulting from grenades were on April 22nd.

Oh sorry was it April 22nd? I got my dates muddled up. We visited the redshirts at the monument in late March when Nick Nostitz climbed up on a TV gantry to take a panoramic photo showing roughly around 150,000 people gathered.

Everyone was very solemn. one man shook my hand. I was a witness no more. This is not my fight but for my wife and her children and their children it matters.

When I hear pampered elitist foreigners come on here and make all their insinuations about the poor, how they are controlled and duped etc etc and how their votes really count for nothing and the alternative is only really the STATUS QUO and to just be thankful I want to *ucking puke!

Now we know where all of this silliness and blind support comes from. You believe your Mrs. and all the local riff-raff.. Foreign elitists? How are they elite here unless Thai citizens?

No elitism, no success, no competition, all hail communism, where all are the status quo. That is what you want in so many words.

But your comments have more holes than swiss cheese: if you stop "elitists" as you call them, then you must do away with rich MP reds, chalerm, yingluk, and thaksin himself.

Edited February 26, 2012 by gemini81

[gemini81]

If the police with their special units trained in crowd control had done their job, the army wouldn't have been involved. Just like in 'normal' countries. Incidentaly some posters defended the Minister of Defence setting up a War Room recently, seeing nothing wrong with using Army experience

Would that be the ficticious 478geo you referred to Rubl?

I do recall stating using military experience to monitor crowd control was acceptable, but the work on the ground should be carried out by the police and specialist police units.

One of the reasons I agree with implementing a crowd control centre, run by the best qualified people, supports my opinion that if the 2010 protest had initially been diverted to a less prominent location the escalation may not have taken place

As it was, there was minimal violence until the army showed up, once in position there was only ever going to be rapid escalation of confrontation, which proved to be the case

I am surprised there was no prolonged use of teargas, water cannons or any other anti riot methodology, also how the whole fortress was allowed to be constructed with little disruptive action from the government side

I am surprised if the government were convinced that the red shirts wanted 'martyrs', as some here are suggesting, then why did the government send in the troops and provide, seems a bit strange don't you think, or was it just desperate lack of vision?

There was no use of tear gas, water cannon. They only came with their guns.

Yes there WAS use of the canon. It is clear you were not in BKK when any of this occured. You also keep changing details as well as adding things, and recalling things that are completely false.

[gemini81]

Have you watched the videos?

France 24 news comes to mind.

Let's be specific right.

There is 1 explosion in front of the camera and then teh bodies are rushed through.

The are left on the ground; not in the recovery position.

So they could drown in their own blood.

It's all there.

Then the soldiers panicked and ran about firing wildly. Totally undisciplined.

It has been pointed out by Robert Armstrongs military expert that had grenades been fired at the soldiers and were seen standard military practice is to shout "grenade" and hit the deck.

None of which happened. Hence his view that said grenade was rolled across the floor to the colonel.

There was 1 other explosion but I don't believe any other casualties.

Why only 2? If these MIB's really were intent on causing mayhem, and we know of a redshirt who was accused by the BIB of firing no less than 50 grenades at the army from Lumpini park,

why so little from them. It doesn't add up.

Bangkok didn't burn to the ground. All this histrionics from the yellowshirts on here day after day trying to justify their coup(s).

There was a civil disturbance where men and boys armed with slingshots ranged up against a heavily armed army in the middle of a capital city.

When they entered the red shirt camp the army found 5 kalashnikovs and 7 very old american rifles which I presume had been confiscated by teh red shirt guards to prevent people/malcontents entering a crowded area armed.

Unreasonable assumption? I don't think so. Why weren't these guns trained on the thai soldiers?

Why were the soldiers found in the army APC on teh night of the 10th April released back to their units by the hated red shirts?

It pleases you lot not to understand these questions and it begs the question what were the coups about?

The only justification has become this idea of Thaksin's orwellian all encompassing corruption which is all utter bull.

Why were the soldiers weaponry seized at the television tower earlier returned to those soldiers?

Peddling bulls**r from a bulls**t peddler. Credibility reaching absolute zero.

If you can see an M79 coming at night, have time to utter grenade! and run for cover before it explodes on impact you'll make a fortune training elite military forces.

Wake up and realize the reason all those people died was the result of the UDD and Thaksin electoral strategy.

Along with the main motivating factor: handouts. The majority of supporters here aren't worried about working hard, education, changing their lives, their country's economy and development. They wanted what they perceive is money, like the hand phones they bought from thaksin, and loans they got when their beloved dictator gave them incentives. Hard to change their thinking, but that's where it has to start if all of this will ever change.

[gemini81]

I've just seen the last of the video where they show bullet casings that were fired. Problem downloading.

Lethal force was used indiscriminately.

Yes, by red amateur thugs and some black shirts of Seh Daeng.