Bangkok's Grand Park Avenue Hotel Did Not Have An 'Adequate' Sprinkler System: Fire

[chrisinth]

“The BMA has already set up 50 teams for the purpose and is planning to hire certified inspection firms to help as well”

"There were no sprinklers where the fire broke out, though there are sprinklers in other areas. So, we suspect that the affected area might have been modified from the original plan,"

“Bangkok City Council chairman Suttichai Weerakulsunthorn said that though the Building Control Act was applicable to buildings constructed from 1992 onwards, he would ask the owners of all other big buildings to comply with safety standards as prescribed by the Act.”

The above are three clips taken from the original article. If the BMA are "planning to hire certified inspection firms" who is responsible for the inspections now?

Without knowing the Building Control Act (1992), I am assuming (1st mistake!) that the plans have to be approved prior to construction. "might have been modified from the original plan" is saying (to me anyway) that no inspection has been carried out before opening to the public (specifically hotels in this case). Who would modify a sprinkler system after final inspection, possibly with the exception of extensions which again i assume require planning permission? I say this because of the complexity of the piping for the sprinkler system.

And the final statement, Bangkok City Council chairman Suttichai Weerakulsunthorn will "ask" owners to comply? If it is law, where does ask come into it? And then to threaten with public exposure with the aim to reduce bookings? Come on.

It seems to me that questions need to be asked about who is responsible for maintaining standard and enforcing them as much as the blame on the hotel. IMHO.

[Udox]

The local radio today 'suggested' that the meeting room which was the probable point of ignition for the fire had a lower ceiling than usual and than the rest of the hotel and it might just be that this room was converted within the last few years and may have once been designed to be used as part of the car parking facilities.

This theory would clear up a few questions being asked at the moment.

As for a helicopter - said to cost around 300 million. Of what real use would it be? It could not be used for fire-fighting as it would need an underslung water bucket and of course a water supply / lake nearby, assuming of course that the fire is on the upper levels; or if for evacuation. Who believes that every building classed as high rise has a helipad, and even if they did would the victims be able to reach the roof (without even thinking about blocked and locked stairwells and exits).

Add the helicopter to the same list as the i-pads and i-phones and i-pad copies.

Spend the money on fire engines and ambulances instead !

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Bangkok has NO Fire Department.

Bangkok has Fire Fighting trucks of many kinds and sorts PARKED at Major Police Stations with Police men in case of a fire acting as Firemen, ha here we go again, if it isn’t sex its money, for which they receive extra pay in addition to their Policeman peanuts salary.

I'm asking seriously...not rhetorically... is that really true? If so, I never knew that...

Just the other day after the FICO building fire, in another thread here, there was another TV member who sounded like some kind of retired fireman from the UK or thereabouts claiming that he'd found the BKK fire personnel to be very professional and skilled.

While I found that claim highly dubious and not in keeping with any kind of performance I've seen since living here, I at least assumed there WAS an actual Fire Department.

Though now that you mention it, when there was a mention the other day about all the new fire equipment for the BKK fire service being stacked up in a lot somewhere because of the ongoing BMA procurement scandal and legal case, it talked about the director of the BKK fire service or whatever name was used being some kind of Police Major General or such....

And at the time, I thought it pretty odd...what the heck is some kind of current or retired police general doing in charge of BKK's firefighting personnel? And what does that likely say about their supposed level of professionalism. Geez.... throw another stone on the pile of rubble.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Spend the money on fire engines and ambulances instead !

That's a nice idea...but it does little good if the personnel manning them don't know what they're doing or aren't professionally trained...

And while the private hospitals may have real ambulances with somewhat trained staff onboard, that's not who gets sent out to fires like the hotel one... I wonder whether the word "paramedic" even has any meaning in the Thai language.

And of course, you could have all the fancy fire trucks and ambulances in the world parked around BKK. But if they can't get through traffic in a timely manner, and no one bothers to move aside when they come down a street with sirens blaring, how are they ever going to reach most calls in time?

Good equipment always is an asset. But I'm guessing that here, the much more dire need is for a fire service staffed with professionals who know what they're doing.

[Seismic]

I can only assume that they had or were required by law to have public liability and fire insurance. Again I can only assume that to be fully covered, the insurance company would require that they had sufficent and adequate fire safety equipment which is inspected and maintained on a regular basis.

In Victoria, Australia by law all non domestic premises including business and industry are required to have their fire protection equipment inspected and tested every six months, this is known as Fire Equipment Maintenance (FEM). The Regulations require the owner to keep all annual essential safety measures reports, records of maintenance check, service and repair work records on the site for inspection by the Municipal Building Surveyor or Chief Officer. Fail to abide by the laws carries heavy fines and possible criminal charges not to mention your insurance will be void.

If they did not have adequate fire safety equipment how on earth would or did they get insurance? If they are found to truely have inadequate equipment surely the Owner/CEO/Management would be looking down the barrel of criminal charges such as manslaughter. Doe's Thailand actually have any regulations on Fire Equipment?

You're not in Kansas any more, Toto. How can you talk liability after seeing the power lines draped on flyover railings and sprigs of a bush used as a barricade in front of a hole in the road or a broken down truck? Liability would mean losing face. Now there's a serious crime, so don't do a negative restaurant review.

I was playing golf at the asia hotel in Pattaya when we noticed fire at the Royal Jomtien resort hotel, we watched for ages as the fire spread and helicopters tried to evacuate people. The end result of the "investigation" was that the fire exits were chained shut, the sprinkler system was not installed and the fire alarms did not work, the Hotel was badly damaged and should have been demolished. Well, the only persons charged were the kitchen attendands changing the gas bottle. The owner was never charged, the hotel was renamed and is operating again. There is no incentive to improve safety as long as the wealthy owners are not held accountable for these events.

[EyesWideOpen]

Bangkok has NO Fire Department.

Bangkok has Fire Fighting trucks of many kinds and sorts PARKED at Major Police Stations with Police men in case of a fire acting as Firemen, ha here we go again, if it isn’t sex its money, for which they receive extra pay in addition to their Policeman peanuts salary.

I'm asking seriously...not rhetorically... is that really true? If so, I never knew that...

Just the other day after the FICO building fire, in another thread here, there was another TV member who sounded like some kind of retired fireman from the UK or thereabouts claiming that he'd found the BKK fire personnel to be very professional and skilled.

While I found that claim highly dubious and not in keeping with any kind of performance I've seen since living here, I at least assumed there WAS an actual Fire Department.

Though now that you mention it, when there was a mention the other day about all the new fire equipment for the BKK fire service being stacked up in a lot somewhere because of the ongoing BMA procurement scandal and legal case, it talked about the director of the BKK fire service or whatever name was used being some kind of Police Major General or such....

And at the time, I thought it pretty odd...what the heck is some kind of current or retired police general doing in charge of BKK's firefighting personnel? And what does that likely say about their supposed level of professionalism. Geez.... throw another stone on the pile of rubble.

In the land of amazement, I find it hard to believe there is no fire department in Bangkok. I am going to do some research. If that is true, and the police are wrapped up in the fire department, then the theory about the firemen at the burning FICO building waiting for money before putting the fire out starts to make a lot more sense !!! :-)

[EyesWideOpen]

Holy cow !!! The fire department is run by the police / mafia. That simply cannot be a good thing.

The Police Fire Brigade is a subordinate organization of the Royal Police and is under the branches of the Metropolitan Public Bureau.

The PFB is headed by a commander who is appointed by the Commissioner General as the Royal Thai Police with the approval of the Police committee. The commander administers the PFB's operations within the sub-division's defined duties.

[noitom]

It's a wing it, on the fly, backward civilization making up rules and procedures as they go along. Indifferent to standards and doing the right thing, always with the knowledge that the law doesn't apply to them or they can buy their way out or posture and navigate because of who they are. Why should they invest in safety or precautions? Why should they consider risk, if risk cost doesn't apply to them? It's cheaper to buy their way out in the event of an occurrence, than to incur the costs and insurance of doing it the right way for the public and society's good. It's just another example of the Thai way and Thainess thumbing their nose at the rest of us and "proving" that they are right and we are nothing.

[noitom]

It's a wing it, on the fly, backward civilization making up rules and procedures as they go along. Indifferent to standards and doing the right thing, always with the knowledge that the law doesn't apply to them or they can buy their way out or posture and navigate because of who they are. Why should they invest in safety or precautions? Why should they consider risk, if risk cost doesn't apply to them? It's cheaper to buy their way out in the event of an occurrence, than to incur the costs and insurance of doing it the right way for the public and society's good. It's just another example of the Thai way and Thainess thumbing their nose at the rest of us and "proving" that they are right and we are nothing.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Holy cow !!! The fire department is run by the police / mafia. That simply cannot be a good thing.

The Police Fire Brigade is a subordinate organization of the Royal Police and is under the branches of the Metropolitan Public Bureau.

The PFB is headed by a commander who is appointed by the Commissioner General as the Royal Thai Police with the approval of the Police committee. The commander administers the PFB's operations within the sub-division's defined duties.

Thanks for finding and posting that... Very interesting...

It does address the jurisdiction and management issues for the fire service in BKK...

But it doesn't exactly address the post member Swerver made above that the fire crews sent out in BKK are simply regular policemen doing extra duty for extra pay -- as opposed to perhaps being full-time firemen who just happen to work under the jurisdiction of the police department.

I don't know which is the current situation. But I'd sure like to know.

Needless to say, in other countries and particularly in their large cities like BKK, the fire service is a full time professional job. And when those crews aren't busy putting out actual fires or conducting rescues, they're doing things that appear to be sorely missing here...

Like conducting inspections of high-rise buildings to ensure their fire and life safety systems are working properly and installed to code.... that their fire escapes are installed and configured properly... that their in building fire sprinklers aren't merely empty hardware screwed into the ceiling, and on and on and on... Not to mention actually training and drilling to do things like effectively fight high-rise fires, which is no small task.

Edited March 11, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[swerver]

Holy cow !!! The fire department is run by the police / mafia. That simply cannot be a good thing.

The Police Fire Brigade is a subordinate organization of the Royal Police and is under the branches of the Metropolitan Public Bureau.

The PFB is headed by a commander who is appointed by the Commissioner General as the Royal Thai Police with the approval of the Police committee. The commander administers the PFB's operations within the sub-division's defined duties.

Thanks for finding and posting that... Very interesting...

It does address the jurisdiction and management issues for the fire service in BKK...

But it doesn't exactly address the post member Swerver made above that the fire crews sent out in BKK are simply regular policemen doing extra duty for extra pay -- as opposed to perhaps being full-time firemen who just happen to work under the jurisdiction of the police department.

I don't know which is the current situation. But I'd sure like to know.

Needless to say, in other countries and particularly in their large cities like BKK, the fire service is a full time professional job. And when those crews aren't busy putting out actual fires or conducting rescues, they're doing things that appear to be sorely missing here...

Like conducting inspections of high-rise buildings to ensure their fire and life safety systems are working properly and installed to code.... that their fire escapes are installed and configured properly... that their in building fire sprinklers aren't merely empty hardware screwed into the ceiling, and on and on and on... Not to mention actually training and drilling to do things like effectively fight high-rise fires, which is no small task.

Paradise Thailand aficionados have difficult time facing REALITY.

It’s already been explained:

The Police Fire Brigade is a subordinate organization of the Royal Police and is under the branches of the Metropolitan Public Bureau.

The PFB is headed by a commander who is appointed by the Commissioner General as the Royal Thai Police with the approval of the Police committee. The commander administers the PFB's operations within the sub-division's defined duties.

You want Thaksin and/or his sister’s signature to this?

You have been pointed to the On Nut Police Station on Sukhumvit Road to see the chaotic situation how late type and extremely expensive Fire Fighting equipment is parked (that is if you call it parking) different people have different ideas about parking and taking care of CAPITAL equipment. Same as different people, Thai including Farang have their own ideas about driving rules and regulations creating the chaos on the roads in Thailand and so it goes on with safety rules and regulations and the list continues unending.

Firemen are specially trained and continually engaged in refresher / update training.

• Either you are a PROFESSIONAL Policeman or
  
• you are a PROFESSIONAL Fireman.
  What you have in Thailand as outlined above by the MPB amounts to Jack of all trades and Master of none in either of these two professions. Thai Police are not professional trained and Thai Firemen are not professional trained.
  

I place Bangkok with the looks of a “Metropolis” on the same plane as Los Angeles, California, a Metropolis known for its high standard of training fire fighters. None I’m not an American, so hold your horses.

Years ago an acquaintance who was a Fireman in Orange County Forestry Fire Department (a well trained group) applied when there was an opening in the LA Fire Dept. Past all the physical tests and assigned to the LA Fire Dept. couple months rigorous training school. He didn’t even make it halfway in that training. He failed the scaling-ladder multi-story High-rise with a one-story length ladder which the fireman has to hook in the window of the next floor up, climb the ladder, stand in the window opening, pull up the ladder, hook it in the next floor up window. The highest he made it was halfway up the High-rise and froze - could not go any higher and could not come down - so he had to be rescued and was the end of his training. Lucky for him he had not resigned from the Orange Country Forestry Fire Department. If ever there is a person highly respecting Metropolis Firemen, he surely is one of these respecters.

Whichever way you cut it, Bangkok has NO Fire Department, and all it has is a mismatch of a Police Department.

If the Fire Department is pulled out of the Police Department then the Thai Army has an advantage in numbers which in the next coupe could be the deciding number. Thai Army and Thai Police numbers have been kept at equal numbers so one will not overpower the other. Only advantage Thai Army has, it has cannons and Tanks which the Thai Police does not have. But these are in longtime storage so if the Thai Army starts to play around with their storage the police who are watching the Army all the time will notice and take their action to find out what the Army is up to. Thailand has floundered since the start of the thirties from one coupe to the next.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Swerver, thanks for all your rhetoric above and discussion of the Thai Army and police... I have no rose colored glasses as to life here... But I am interested in verifying facts and separating facts from opinions.

I didn't say you were wrong in your comments re the Bangkok fire brigade.. In fact, while I don't have any first hand knowledge, I'd be inclined to believe you're right based on what I've observed.

But I was responding to the other post above that detailed the administrative governance of the BKK fire brigade (that being under the Police Department). And my response simply was, the administrative governance of the department is not automatically synonymous with how that department is staffed. Though it certainly may be synonymous.

I've seen the On Nut police station and the fire apparatus there many times... But I've never stopped to look or inquire as to who exactly is manning those trucks when the alarm bells go off, and what they're doing during other times.... though now I'm even more intrigued to know.

BTW, I am an American and I had the opportunity from my past career to work very closely for many years with both the L.A. City and L.A. County Fire Departments, and to see them in action many many times close-up and in some very dire circumstances. They are professional organizations, and operate at levels the BKK folks could only dream of aspiring to.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Some info in another thread on this same general subject indicating that the BKK Fire Department duties were transferred from the police to the BMA quite a few years ago.

[Thai at Heart]

The issue as I see it is that as a society Thailand is reactive rather than proactive.

This has both advantages with regards to the freedoms people enjoy, however, the negatives revolve around the fact that issues are only ever dealt with ‘after an event’. The subsequent total lack of responsibility and accountability is to blame, and also the enforcement of responsibility and accountability. The acceptability of the general populace that those higher up the pecking order can avoid responsibility further exacerbate these issues.

As someone mentioned in another thread, while Thailand is a great place to live, it has major issues, while it is a successful state, on some terms it could be classed as a failed society.

I love Thailand, it is very sad to see these issues repeated, my Thai friends also express sadness at the very same issues we on Thai visa.com often discuss.

If the rich had to genuinely pay compensation for their incompetence and liability, it would amazing how proactive they would become. Their reaction is measured by how much they have to pay to make the problem go away after it occurs, not before.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Thai at Heart

[Bagwan]

Promising to hire certified inspection firms is one thing. Actually doing the inspections is another. Enforcing the findings is yet another. Finally, re-inspecting and certifying is an on-going process. This building safety issue has been an exposure in Thailand for years and years. Through corruption, graft, arrogance, and lack of legal recourse, it has extended beyond scope. This building codes and standards and regulatory inspection and enforcement along with adequate fire forces and helicopters and equipment is way beyond the scope of Thais to make happen. They need to abandon the old Thai philosophy of excluding foreign expertise, fix the corruption, enforce the law, and get the elite business class building owners to pay up for property taxes to fund all of this.

Not a lot to ask for is it? 555555555555555