God Finds Converts In Wake Of Tsunami

[khall64au]

There are many Christian churches all over Thailand. In fact, some of my Thai friends are Catholics and have been since birth.

I have been following the missionary debate in the local press since their post-tsunami arrival and have visited the region on numerous times throughout this year. The religious charities are doing a lot of good work and will continue to do so in the future with ongoing rebuilding and support programs.

There has been a lot of ill-feeling but as time goes on it appears not too many Thais are ill-affected by their conversion. It was a case of helping hands reaching out in the direst time of need. Some may stay with their new faith others may abandon it. It is free choice after all.

I will most likely be in Khao Lak for Christmas Day so may just pop into a few churches to check out the carol singing.

[cdnvic]

In order to preserve the discussion, I've deleted 7 off topic posts, including my own, carry on with the discussion please.

cv

[thaibebop]

Please, please, please, let's show a little tolerance! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thaibebop wrote

You have never been on the other side of Christianity's fence have you? You have never been spit on by compassionate followers of Chirst have you? You have never lost friends because you wouldn't pick up their cross have you?

To teach the willing student seeking knowledge is honorable, to convert is an act of subverison and thus closer to an act of evil and thus lacking honor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Thaibebop, you make so many assumtions - yes I have been on the other side of the Christian fence, yes I have been illtreated by people who have called themselves Christian, yes I have lost friends to all sorts of errent beliefs! So you know very little about me but choose to make all sorts of assumptions!

You see, all that you mention does not change my relationship with God. I came to Christianity with fervent study and prayer. It does not matter to me if the Pope was/is a Nazi. It is not his behaviour that matters - it's mine.

You seem to live in a very 'black and white' world. I do not know these Christians, I do not know what is in their hearts, until we have counter evidence we should not assume the worst. If we did I could condemn our local buddists for taking in people off the streets and feeding them. Imagine if I said "oh they are only doing that to convert them" preposterous! They have done a good work regardless of their religious beliefs - respect that! No, I won't. Intentions are supposed to be the root of sin or viture in Christianity. So, I have sinned if I thought about the sin or if I had the sin in my heart regardless of what my actions are. They are not helping just to help, they have an agenda and that agenda is harmful to the culture in which it interacts with.Isiah 55.6

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[suegha]

Please, please, please, let's show a little tolerance! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thaibebop wrote

You have never been on the other side of Christianity's fence have you? You have never been spit on by compassionate followers of Chirst have you? You have never lost friends because you wouldn't pick up their cross have you?

To teach the willing student seeking knowledge is honorable, to convert is an act of subverison and thus closer to an act of evil and thus lacking honor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Thaibebop, you make so many assumtions - yes I have been on the other side of the Christian fence, yes I have been illtreated by people who have called themselves Christian, yes I have lost friends to all sorts of errent beliefs! So you know very little about me but choose to make all sorts of assumptions!

You see, all that you mention does not change my relationship with God. I came to Christianity with fervent study and prayer. It does not matter to me if the Pope was/is a Nazi. It is not his behaviour that matters - it's mine.

You seem to live in a very 'black and white' world. I do not know these Christians, I do not know what is in their hearts, until we have counter evidence we should not assume the worst. If we did I could condemn our local buddists for taking in people off the streets and feeding them. Imagine if I said "oh they are only doing that to convert them" preposterous! They have done a good work regardless of their religious beliefs - respect that! No, I won't. Intentions are supposed to be the root of sin or viture in Christianity. So, I have sinned if I thought about the sin or if I had the sin in my heart regardless of what my actions are. They are not helping just to help, they have an agenda and that agenda is harmful to the culture in which it interacts with.Isiah 55.6

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well thaibebop, we will have to agree to difer, you seem to understand what's in peoples hearts and equally condenm buddists and christians for any good work. I'll have to inform my local buddists not to 'interact with the culture', like I have the right to do such a thing! And nor do you, how have you become so bitter and judgemental?

However, nice use of Isiah 55!

[thaibebop]

Please, please, please, let's show a little tolerance! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thaibebop wrote

You have never been on the other side of Christianity's fence have you? You have never been spit on by compassionate followers of Chirst have you? You have never lost friends because you wouldn't pick up their cross have you?

To teach the willing student seeking knowledge is honorable, to convert is an act of subverison and thus closer to an act of evil and thus lacking honor.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well Thaibebop, you make so many assumtions - yes I have been on the other side of the Christian fence, yes I have been illtreated by people who have called themselves Christian, yes I have lost friends to all sorts of errent beliefs! So you know very little about me but choose to make all sorts of assumptions!

You see, all that you mention does not change my relationship with God. I came to Christianity with fervent study and prayer. It does not matter to me if the Pope was/is a Nazi. It is not his behaviour that matters - it's mine.

You seem to live in a very 'black and white' world. I do not know these Christians, I do not know what is in their hearts, until we have counter evidence we should not assume the worst. If we did I could condemn our local buddists for taking in people off the streets and feeding them. Imagine if I said "oh they are only doing that to convert them" preposterous! They have done a good work regardless of their religious beliefs - respect that! No, I won't. Intentions are supposed to be the root of sin or viture in Christianity. So, I have sinned if I thought about the sin or if I had the sin in my heart regardless of what my actions are. They are not helping just to help, they have an agenda and that agenda is harmful to the culture in which it interacts with.Isiah 55.6

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well thaibebop, we will have to agree to difer, you seem to understand what's in peoples hearts and equally condenm buddists and christians for any good work. I'll have to inform my local buddists not to 'interact with the culture', like I have the right to do such a thing! And nor do you, how have you become so bitter and judgemental?

However, nice use of Isiah 55!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buddhism is Thai culture Suegha. I will try to say this without being ofensive for that is not my goal, but Christians have influences in many countries and for the most part control many countries. America is mostly Christian for example. What happens to the world when Christians go places that think differently than they do and change those thoughts? What would the world be like if every country you touched down in was the same? I don't like the idea of anyone going around selling their beliefs. I don't want everyone to be the same. I don't want to finally get to Thailand and have to look for a temple because all I see is churches. There is a place in this world for all of us and people like missionaries you want to convert are in effect saying that there is no place for you in this world because they want you to be Christian. I have read enough of the bible to know that a real Christian would never be a missionary. I have always hoped that if Christianity as a religion remains on earth that it's followers will one day be able to separate what is in the bible and what has been decided by the men who run the religion. I hope I am being clear. And as for being embittered, you should try living in the midwest, it will teach you to hate.

[suegha]

Thaibebop, nothing will teach me to hate! It's an unhealthy state to be in.

Dealing with your comments about Christianity (or any religion) - you, and many like you, seem to blame all the ills of whatever society on Christianity (or any religion). This simply is not the case! People are responsible for the ills of society. If those people held no specific beliefs, you would just blame them, not their belief system. An evil person, regardless of their belief system, is still an evil person! We should not blame the faith they profess.

Dealing with the original posting - people have the right to choose their own spiritual paths, it's a God given gift, therefore we should not stand in their way, they should make their own choices. As I'm sure you have made yours...

[suegha]

ps regarding your comment "I have read enough of the bible to know that a real Christian would never be a missionary"

I think that maybe you haven't read the comments of Jesus in Mark 16.15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

This seems pretty clear to me!

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop, nothing will teach me to hate!  It's an unhealthy state to be in. Than you don't know yourself completely. Good and evil define eachother, to know how good of a man you can be you must know how evil you can become.

Dealing with your comments about Christianity (or any religion) - you, and many like you, seem to blame all the ills of whatever society on Christianity (or any religion). You have not read, or you have not understood the words I put down. Allow me to clarify. I want to go to Thailand and find Thai culture, not Christian. If I want to experience Christian culture there is a number of places to find it.

This simply is not the case! People are responsible for the ills of society.  If those people held no specific beliefs, you would just blame them, not their belief system.  An evil person, regardless of their belief system, is still an evil person!  We should not blame the faith they profess. Ones religion decides what is good and evil. I would careful than saying what is evil, for what is evil to you may not be evil to another.

Dealing with the original posting - people have the right to choose their own spiritual paths, it's a God given gift, therefore we should not stand in their way, they should make their own choices.  As I'm sure you have made yours...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say they have the right to choose, I say the did, Buddhism, so why must someone come along and find ways to convince them to give that up? So, why can't "their" choice be respected?

ps regarding your comment "I have read enough of the bible to know that a real Christian would never be a missionary"

I think that maybe you haven't read the comments of Jesus in Mark 16.15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

This seems pretty clear to me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read more of Paul. There are contradictions for every arguement in the Bible.

[DrBooze]

I guess Christians would be actively trying to convert people, because they are trying to save them. For them, converting other faiths is a good thing to do. It's their responsibility. Anyone who travels around the world preaching God must be pretty convinced that they're doing the right thing.

For me, this seems naive. In the face of all the diversity of the world religions - how can we just choose one out of blind faith? And then to try to convert other people is like the blind leading the blind. But that is the nature of religions based on faith.

But good intentions dont necessarily equal good actions. To me, trying to convert people smacks of arrogance and delusion. And to allocate aid, based on faith is inherently divisive. But my idea of bad is fundamentally different from theirs.

I hate the idea of a kind of noble responsibility - it is used to justify all kinds of aggression, from the crusades to the war in Iraq

On a larger level, these things serve political ends. Like Saudis funding Muslim schools in Southeast Asia. They may see themselves as spreading God's word- others may see it as trying to gain an ideological foothold in remote areas.

[suegha]

Thaibebop, nothing will teach me to hate!  It's an unhealthy state to be in. Than you don't know yourself completely. Good and evil define eachother, to know how good of a man you can be you must know how evil you can become.

Dealing with your comments about Christianity (or any religion) - you, and many like you, seem to blame all the ills of whatever society on Christianity (or any religion). You have not read, or you have not understood the words I put down. Allow me to clarify. I want to go to Thailand and find Thai culture, not Christian. If I want to experience Christian culture there is a number of places to find it.

This simply is not the case! People are responsible for the ills of society.  If those people held no specific beliefs, you would just blame them, not their belief system.  An evil person, regardless of their belief system, is still an evil person!  We should not blame the faith they profess. Ones religion decides what is good and evil. I would careful than saying what is evil, for what is evil to you may not be evil to another.

Dealing with the original posting - people have the right to choose their own spiritual paths, it's a God given gift, therefore we should not stand in their way, they should make their own choices.  As I'm sure you have made yours...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say they have the right to choose, I say the did, Buddhism, so why must someone come along and find ways to convince them to give that up? So, why can't "their" choice be respected?

ps regarding your comment "I have read enough of the bible to know that a real Christian would never be a missionary"

I think that maybe you haven't read the comments of Jesus in Mark 16.15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

This seems pretty clear to me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read more of Paul. There are contradictions for every arguement in the Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been reading and studying the bible for nearly 30 years, I find no contradictions, particularly in the writings of Paul.

I did not say that I didn't understand what evil is or what hate is, we are all capable of these things - what I did say was 'nothing will teach me to hate'.

Choices do not stop when we make some - life is constantly about making choices - we should respect peoples choices, even if they are different from ours. If we wish to have ours respected it is then our responsibility to respect theirs.

Like I said already, we will have to agree to differ as this could go round and round for ever. Thank you for your replies.

[suegha]

I guess Christians would be actively trying to convert people, because they are trying to save them.  For them, converting other faiths is a good thing to do.  It's their responsibility.  Anyone who travels around the world preaching God must be pretty convinced that they're doing the right thing.

For me, this seems naive.  In the face of all the diversity of the world religions - how can we just choose one out of blind faith?  And then to try to convert other people is like the blind leading the blind.  But that is the nature of religions based on faith.

But good intentions dont necessarily equal good actions.  To me, trying to convert people smacks of arrogance and delusion.  And to allocate aid, based on faith is inherently divisive.  But my idea of bad is fundamentally different from theirs.

I hate the idea of a kind of noble responsibility - it is used to justify all kinds of aggression, from the crusades to the war in Iraq

On a larger level, these things serve political ends.  Like Saudis funding Muslim schools in Southeast Asia.  They may see themselves as spreading God's word- others may see it as trying to gain an ideological foothold in remote areas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are some misunderstandings as to what a Christian is trying to do when spreading the gospel.

Firstly, I am not trying to 'save' anyone, only God does the saving.

Secondly, and this refers to a point made already in this posting, it is not based on blind faith. My faith is based on years of fervant study and prayer.

And thirdly, we should never fall into the trap of blaming any aggression or evil on the 'noble responsibility'. The people who perpetrate evil deeds, are evil people, if they didn't use their faith as an excuse thay would use something else. Fundamentalists are firstly fundamentalists, and then Christian, Muslim, Racist, Sexist or whatever.

[camerata]

What irks a lot of people about Christian evangelicals descending on Thailand in the wake of the tsunami is that historically Christian missionaries usually arrived in this part of the world in the wake of gunboat diplomacy. And they always came with superior technology, superior medicine and more money. In other words, "We're superior to you, therefore our religion must be superior to yours."

There are plenty of good missionaries out there working with little money and in poor conditions, but the ones arriving in Phuket with bags of money seem to hark back to the bad old days. I wonder if there is any long-term commitment or they'll eventually jet off to the next global trouble-spot that hits the news.

[thaibebop]

Thaibebop, nothing will teach me to hate!  It's an unhealthy state to be in. Than you don't know yourself completely. Good and evil define eachother, to know how good of a man you can be you must know how evil you can become.

Dealing with your comments about Christianity (or any religion) - you, and many like you, seem to blame all the ills of whatever society on Christianity (or any religion). You have not read, or you have not understood the words I put down. Allow me to clarify. I want to go to Thailand and find Thai culture, not Christian. If I want to experience Christian culture there is a number of places to find it.

This simply is not the case! People are responsible for the ills of society.  If those people held no specific beliefs, you would just blame them, not their belief system.  An evil person, regardless of their belief system, is still an evil person!  We should not blame the faith they profess. Ones religion decides what is good and evil. I would careful than saying what is evil, for what is evil to you may not be evil to another.

Dealing with the original posting - people have the right to choose their own spiritual paths, it's a God given gift, therefore we should not stand in their way, they should make their own choices.  As I'm sure you have made yours...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say they have the right to choose, I say the did, Buddhism, so why must someone come along and find ways to convince them to give that up? So, why can't "their" choice be respected?

ps regarding your comment "I have read enough of the bible to know that a real Christian would never be a missionary"

I think that maybe you haven't read the comments of Jesus in Mark 16.15 "He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

This seems pretty clear to me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Read more of Paul. There are contradictions for every arguement in the Bible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been reading and studying the bible for nearly 30 years, I find no contradictions, particularly in the writings of Paul. Then your not paying attention. I have just used as of last semester, the writings of Paul to agrue that what the church was doing concerning lay investure was against biblical teaching, and this was compounded on by the writings of Ausgustine and Aquinas. Paul clearly states a non-involvement policy for Christians. As far as converting is concerned teach the only the pagan that seeks the knowledge, stay out of the government for it is a government of man and will fall when held up to God's standards, etc.

I did not say that I didn't understand what evil is or what hate is, we are all capable of these things - what I did say was 'nothing will teach me to hate'.You can't understand unless you know. A rape victim can describe to you all the horrible details, but you still won't know unless you are a victim yourself. Know thy self, is a key to all understanding.

Choices do not stop when we make some - life is constantly about making choices - we should respect peoples choices, even if they are different from ours. If we wish to have ours respected it is then our responsibility to respect theirs. Yes, we should as long as they respect ours. What should we do when someone keeps coming back and back again trying to convince us that what we believe is wrong and what they believe is right and we should be more like them? Where is the respect you speak of in such actions?

Like I said already, we will have to agree to differ as this could go round and round for ever. Thank you for your replies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on, don't take the easy way out, debate, use logic to defeat me.

I guess Christians would be actively trying to convert people, because they are trying to save them.  For them, converting other faiths is a good thing to do.  It's their responsibility.  Anyone who travels around the world preaching God must be pretty convinced that they're doing the right thing.

For me, this seems naive.  In the face of all the diversity of the world religions - how can we just choose one out of blind faith?  And then to try to convert other people is like the blind leading the blind.  But that is the nature of religions based on faith.

But good intentions dont necessarily equal good actions.  To me, trying to convert people smacks of arrogance and delusion.  And to allocate aid, based on faith is inherently divisive.  But my idea of bad is fundamentally different from theirs.

I hate the idea of a kind of noble responsibility - it is used to justify all kinds of aggression, from the crusades to the war in Iraq

On a larger level, these things serve political ends.  Like Saudis funding Muslim schools in Southeast Asia.  They may see themselves as spreading God's word- others may see it as trying to gain an ideological foothold in remote areas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice post Dr.Booze!

There are some misunderstandings as to what a Christian is trying to do when spreading the gospel. What kind of confusion could there be? Converting, is the name of the game, The battle for souls and all. What are we missing?

Firstly, I am not trying to 'save' anyone, only God does the saving. No, Jesus does that, unless who believe in the trinity I guess.

Secondly, and this refers to a point made already in this posting, it is not based on blind faith. My faith is based on years of fervant study and prayer. But we aren't talking about just you. I am glad you have not walked this path on blind faith but that doesn't mean that others have not.

And thirdly, we should never fall into the trap of blaming any aggression or evil on the 'noble responsibility'. The people who perpetrate evil deeds, are evil people, if they didn't use their faith as an excuse thay would use something else. Fundamentalists are firstly fundamentalists, and then Christian, Muslim, Racist, Sexist or whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I say again, what is evil? Many believed and still do that what Hitler did was a good thing a great step towards solving the Jewish problem. Others disagree. The caotholics new holy father believed in Hitler once upon a time, maybe he still he does? The German solider fought of the good of his people and his fatherland, there was nothing evil about the german patriot even when he killed Americans and British patriots, yet we the yanks told ourselfs that they were. So, evil is just perspective, yes?

[thaibebop]

What irks a lot of people about Christian evangelicals descending on Thailand in the wake of the tsunami is that historically Christian missionaries usually arrived in this part of the world in the wake of gunboat diplomacy. And they always came with superior technology, superior medicine and more money. In other words, "We're superior to you, therefore our religion must be superior to yours."

There are plenty of good missionaries out there working with little money and in poor conditions, but the ones arriving in Phuket with bags of money seem to hark back to the bad old days. I wonder if there is any long-term commitment or they'll eventually jet off to the next global trouble-spot that hits the news.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For all those things that have changed there is more that has not.

[khall64au]

Do any of you guys know what you are talking about? Have any of you visited post-tsunami Thailand? How can you possibly comment if you have not seen and heard with your own sensibilities! Come and help out... see for yourself......

[thaibebop]

Do any of you guys know what you are talking about? Have any of you visited post-tsunami Thailand? How can you possibly comment if you have not seen and heard with your own sensibilities! Come and help out... see for yourself...... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not what we are talking about, Khall. The only time the tsunami has enter this conversation is in regards to the missionaries using it as a means of converting. What we have been talking about is missionaries and converting people and issues of faith, not the tsunami.

[khall64au]

Do any of you guys know what you are talking about? Have any of you visited post-tsunami Thailand? How can you possibly comment if you have not seen and heard with your own sensibilities! Come and help out... see for yourself...... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not what we are talking about, Khall. The only time the tsunami has enter this conversation is in regards to the missionaries using it as a means of converting. What we have been talking about is missionaries and converting people and issues of faith, not the tsunami.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what is the topic called ? And last time I checked in you all were commenting on the topic... the conversion of Thai Buddhists to other faiths in exchange for post-tsunami charity. Forgive me if I'm wrong!

[The Philosopher]

God finds converts in wake of tsunami

By Sebastien Berger

(Filed: 19/12/2005 - Daily Telegraph)

Next to one of the lasting reminders of the Boxing Day tsunami in Buddhist Thailand, around 50 people gathered yesterday to worship Jesus Christ.

The Love in Action ministry is alongside a 65ft fishing trawler which was swept a mile inland in Nam Khem, the town worst affected by the wave.

Survivors of the tsunami make up the congregation

at Sunday service in the new ministry at Nam Khem

A year ago there were no churches on the Khao Lak coast, where thousands died. As the first anniversary approaches there are a score, mostly set up by United States-based evangelical groups that moved in following the deluge.

James Garwood, the leader of another ministry, Life in Action in Thailand,

addressed the congregation in Nam Khem, most of them local residents who have recently converted.

A former heroin addict who found Christianity in prison in the US, Mr Garwood said "hundreds and hundreds" of local residents had converted since the tsunami.

He arrived three days after the earthquake, equipped with a bag of balloons to entertain children in a nearby refugee camp. "I didn't come here to start a church," he insisted. But, he added: "I felt God tugging at my heart."

At a Christian drop-in centre, run by We Love Thailand, Phil Thompson, from Derby, said: "There were no churches along this stretch before the tsunami but now there's 20."

Missionary groups stress that they offer help to all, regardless of their religion. But there is frequently a co-incidence between conversions and the receipt of aid.

Nam Khem, a vast swathe of mud and rubble after the tsunami, has been transformed, almost entirely rebuilt by the Thai authorities.

A Christian organisation built about 50 concrete homes for Morgan sea gypsies, a few of whom have converted. Mon Khatalay, 28, said: "I came to know the Lord after the tsunami. I'm so happy, so grateful and thankful to God." At the church, Gan Klathalay, 46, wore an orange T- shirt reading "Prayer changes things" on the front and "Thank you Jesus" on the back.

A Buddhist before the tsunami, he now attends worship five times a week and holds a prayer session at home. "It seems like the Christians are very good to me, that's why I converted," he said.

While Buddhism is renowned for its tolerance, some Thais are disturbed by the phenomenon. "I'm not feeling happy," said Phra Viroth Titaphoonyo, the abbot at Wat Laem Pom, a Buddhist temple where some 20 families live in temporary homes in the grounds.

He laments the resources available to Western evangelists from fellow believers in their home countries.

"A lot convert to Christian because the Christians came to help them. We don't have money from the temples to give to the victims, but Buddhist monks have good wishes. Maybe you have a new house now but Buddhism teaches you how to survive."

"The way to help the people is totally different. If you are Buddhist, when the people jump in the water and ask for help a Buddhist teaches you how to swim. A Christian just gives them a hand and pulls them up."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are these they same loonies who have been gathering outside the Nana Plaza shouting repent sinner hel_l awaits you. If so I fancy going to hel_l coming back outside and being sick on their shoes

Edited December 28, 2005 by The Philosopher

[britmaveric]

Are these they same loonies who have been gathering outside the Nana Plaza shouting repent sinner hel_l awaits you. If so I fancy going to hel_l coming back outside and being sick on their shoes

[thaibebop]

Do any of you guys know what you are talking about? Have any of you visited post-tsunami Thailand? How can you possibly comment if you have not seen and heard with your own sensibilities! Come and help out... see for yourself...... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not what we are talking about, Khall. The only time the tsunami has enter this conversation is in regards to the missionaries using it as a means of converting. What we have been talking about is missionaries and converting people and issues of faith, not the tsunami.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what is the topic called ? And last time I checked in you all were commenting on the topic... the conversion of Thai Buddhists to other faiths in exchange for post-tsunami charity. Forgive me if I'm wrong!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but you are trying to focus on the tsunami, we are agruing over whether it is wrong or not to enter a country after a disaster and try to convert them. So, this could be after an earthquake, flood, tornado, whatever. So, this is not about the tsunami, it's about missionaries.

[suegha]

It is not wrong to enter a country and try to spread your beliefs as long as it's within the law of that land and the people being instructed have the right to choose! It's true of life in the UK and it's true of Life in Thailand. I thank God for our freedoms.

[Plus]

First we had Dr. T refusing foreign aid because it was, well, foreign, and now some think, apparently, that Christian aid should also be rejected because it's Christian.

What is common that neither Dr.T nor our posters don't need any tsunami help themselves but feel obliged to refuse on others behalf.

Thailand is a predominantly Buddhist country but if a large number of people choose to convert to Christianity then why should any of us try to stop them? It's not some theme park where you can order what cultural show to put on for your pleasure.

Perhaps people converting to Christianity were only nominally Buddhists. Perhaps Buddhists themselves should give it a thought - why people seek their spiritual needs outside Buddhism? Is there something missing in their lives that they find in other faiths?

Perhaps there's nothing to worry about because these new Christians are simply economic migrants, a bit like all those Mexicans flooding the US in search of freedom and democracy. They'll come around, and will be better Buddhists in the end.

[suegha]

To reduce this to a manageable size, I will just copy and paste the relevant parts.

Thaibebop wrote “Come on, don't take the easy way out, debate, use logic to defeat me.”

I do not subscribe to a forum to defeat anyone. I do, however, wish to point out some flaws and assumptions in your argument.

Thaibebop wrote “I have just used as of last semester, the writings of Paul to agrue that what the church was doing concerning lay investure was against biblical teaching, and this was compounded on by the writings of Ausgustine and Aquinas. Paul clearly states a non-involvement policy for Christians. As far as converting is concerned teach the only the pagan that seeks the knowledge, stay out of the government for it is a government of man and will fall when held up to God's standards, etc.”

I don’t know what you are talking about! What’s this church you mention? Also, what’s lay investure – not an expression used in scripture. Also, it doesn’t matter to me what Ausgustine and Aquinas wrote. As far as being involved in government, etc, I agree, as a Christian, I don’t and won’t get involved in such things. Nor do I vote in man’s elections, nor will I fight in man’s wars.

Thaibebop wrote “What should we do when someone keeps coming back and back again trying to convince us that what we believe is wrong and what they believe is right and we should be more like them?”

Who are these people who try to convince you that you are wrong? I do not wish to convince anyone of such a thing. I will, however, share the gospel message with anyone ‘willing’ to listen.

Furthermore, I wrote “There are some misunderstandings as to what a Christian is trying to do when spreading the gospel.”

Thaibebop wrote “What kind of confusion could there be? Converting, is the name of the game, The battle for souls and all. What are we missing?

What you are missing is… Converting is not the name of the game, ‘the battle for souls’ means nothing to me, again not found anywhere in scripture. Maybe that’s what you’re missing!

And somewhat linked to above, I wrote “Firstly, I am not trying to 'save' anyone, only God does the saving.”

Thaibebop wrote “No, Jesus does that, unless who believe in the trinity I guess.”

No I am not a trinitarian, (I’m sure we covered this in previous posts) God does the saving, Jesus is the ‘saviour’.

Thaibebop, I’m sure from your experiences you have reasons for what you say. Do not, however, assume that all Christians hold the same views or behave the same way, because I don’t. Also, as previously covered, people are responsible for their bad behaviour, not God. What people have done in the name of God is sometimes appalling, but don’t blame me or ‘all’ Christians for that – It’s just preposterous!

Sorry for the length of this posting, I hope it’s helped to clarify some things.

[Abandon]

It does Seugha, thanks for the insights there. I have found that Westerners have a lot of pre-conceived misconceptions about Christianity, myself included. Perhaps Thai Buddhists have the same thing regarding Buddhism. Nice new avatar BTW

[gburns57au]

my question is......

If the Muslim leaders came and converted a lot Buddhist Thais to Islam...what would you Christians think then????

To use a disaster to try and convert people who are at a low point in their lives is not a good thing. it is merely exploitation.....full stop!!!

and BTW..it is not God who is finding these coverts....it is the missionaries with their bulging pockets. By all means offer assistance but do it from the heart for free, do not attach conditions on it.

Edited January 1, 2006 by gburns57au

[suegha]

my question is......

If the Muslim leaders came and converted a lot Buddhist Thais to Islam...what would you Christians think then????

To use a disaster to try and convert people who are at a low point in their lives is not a good thing. it is merely exploitation.....full stop!!!

and BTW..it is not God who is finding these coverts....it is the missionaries with their bulging pockets. By all means offer assistance but do it from the heart for free, do not attach conditions on it.

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As I said earlier "It is not wrong to enter a country and try to spread your beliefs as long as it's within the law of that land and the people being instructed have the right to choose! It's true of life in the UK and it's true of Life in Thailand. I thank God for our freedoms." So if it's Christians, Buddists, Muslems or whatever, this still applies.

I do agree that if all that happened was people converting for the 'bulging pockets', that it would be wrong. However, we do not know this for certain. Some may do, others not. In time if any did it for the 'bulging pockets' they will no doubt return to Buddism (or whatever). We can not tell what is in peoples hearts only God can do that.

Edited January 1, 2006 by suegha

[Jersey_UK]

I normally avoid these sorts of "discussions", but as a 110% Heathen Farang (C of E Branch - ie Weddings, Funerals and Barmitzvahs) I should like to point out that:-

JESUS CHRIST SAVED MY (THAI) GIRLFRIEND'S LIFE

On one level I find this mildly annoying, but I am of course very happy she did not die just to prove a minor debating point. (getting Married in Jan 06).

Without boring folk with the whole story - we had a parting of ways a couple of years ago - she then ended up back in prison and when released ended up living on the streets in Bangkok, got very sick and would have died if not for being taken to Hospital by a Group of Evangelical Farang Christians (if that is the right description) for which I will be eternally grateful. Around 20,000B for a life. I pissed a lot more than that away on my last night in Bangkok last trip.

The Missus had the pure chance to be born a christian. Although she did decline their initial offers of help until the point where she physically could not resist, once in hospital she did have sense to stay as long as she could. I won't say she then played the "christian card", but this plus her knowledge of dealing with Farangs (learn't from sucking c#cks to feed a drug habit) no doubt came in handy. Whatever, she of course undoubtably became more "christian". She was aware that understandably not everybody can get the B20k special.

She became somewhat less Christian when yours truly unexpectedly re-appeared on the scene. As I guess that I was something which had to be coped with by the Evangelicals, I was explained as "being sent to Thailand for her by Jesus Christ". I have had many motivations for returning to Thailand over the years - none of them entirely religous

The moral of the story (for me) is........there isn't one.

Good people DO good things. The motivation (for me) doesn't really matter.

If the Evangelicals did not beleive in Jesus Christ then the Missus would be dead right now. Hence my opening statement.

If the Missus hadn't had the pure luck to be born a Christian and had not spent a lot of her life working Farang she would probably be dead right now.

So the opening statement could perhaps also read:

"Sucking C#cks AND Jesus Christ could save your life".

Whatever. I am sure most Thai folk in general are more than capable of banging a Tamborine as long as the money comes. And if in the meantime some good comes of it all the better. I would call that a happy compromise.

The Missus does still keep in touch with the Evangelicals, a bit (you never know........), but funnily enough is never too keen to go around for Sunday Lunch.

"Eat After".

[suegha]

An interesting post by Jersey_UK, God certainly does work in mysterious ways. I hope it has had a positive effect on those involved. May God bless you both.

[Jersey_UK]

An interesting post by Jersey_UK, God certainly does work in mysterious ways.  I hope it has had a positive effect on those involved.  May God bless you both.

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"God certainly does work in mysterious ways" - I translate that to mean in "heathen speak" as, "it's a funny old world". And thanks for the good wishes.

Whilst I am here, a question I have tried to find the answer to from the Missus without much success, albeit that we don't have any great religous discussions, is what "branch" of christianity is she likely to be?

She seemed nonplussed by this question. The nearest we got was "Thai Christian" . I should mention that the Christian bit only came from her mother who was half chinese and who died when she was still a child and she has never had much to do with religion since apart from growing up knowing she wasn't a budhist.

Is this likely to make her Catholic, Protestant, Methodist etc? I guess that the various branches of christianity are represented in Thailand, I just wondered if it was like the UK being Protestant whereas the Italians are Catholic?

We are also talking with the Missus at 35 and being the youngest and a very late addition to the family that her mum's branch of christianity must be at least 60/65 years established - so I figure it is likely to exclude the "funkier" christian branches.

I guess I am looking for a Thai / Chinese theological historian. Possiblly a bit of an ask!

[thaibebop]

It is not wrong to enter a country and try to spread your beliefs as long as it's within the law of that land and the people being instructed have the right to choose!  It's true of life in the UK and it's true of Life in Thailand.  I thank God for our freedoms.

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He had nothing to do with it, men fought and died for those.

To reduce this to a manageable size, I will just copy and paste the relevant parts.

Thaibebop wrote “Come on, don't take the easy way out, debate, use logic to defeat me.”

I do not subscribe to a forum to defeat anyone.  I do, however, wish to point out some flaws and assumptions in your argument.

Thaibebop wrote “I have just used as of last semester, the writings of Paul to agrue that what the church was doing concerning lay investure was against biblical teaching, and this was compounded on by the writings of Ausgustine and Aquinas. Paul clearly states a non-involvement policy for Christians. As far as converting is concerned teach the only the pagan that seeks the knowledge, stay out of the government for it is a government of man and will fall when held up to God's standards, etc.”

I don’t know what you are talking about! What’s this church you mention?  Also, what’s lay investure – not an expression used in scripture.  Also, it doesn’t matter to me  what Ausgustine and Aquinas wrote.  As far as being involved in government, etc, I agree, as a Christian, I don’t and won’t get involved in such things.  Nor do I vote in man’s elections, nor will I fight in man’s wars.

You have two major problems Suegha. One, you think that whatever I post is somehow an attack or criticism of your person, it's not. But since you are defending these missionaries I direct many statements and questions to you. So, I am asking you because you seem to know why, or why they should do the things they do. We all know of your personal beliefs and that your not like other Christians (slap on the back) good for you, but we aren't talking about you, or what you do or belief. We are talking about them. Remember that.

Second, I think you have a problem separating what scirpture says and what scirpture does. You have studied the bible not the religion, in other words. Much of what Christians do today is only "based" on the bible. Christian philosophers and men of the cloth have had a great influence over the hows and whys of the believers faiths. You have not studied these things and try to make an agruement for what these missionaries are doing, and I am saying that what they are doing they are only using the bible to support, because much of what they do comes more from the teachings of man not the bible. Does this make sense? I have only brought up Augustine and Aquinas to show that some of the greatest known Christian philosophers would not support the behavior of these missionaries. This is just one reason why what they wrote does matter. Another would be that since the bible is open to interpretation many men such as these made attempts at clarifying the scripture and thus forming Christian thought from than on, and this works have now become just as important to understanding Chirstianity as the bible itself. My use of the term church is general, I am not singling out any one in particular. So, I think that before you try to defend these people just because they are Christian and you think it is bible scripture that motivates them it would be wise to learn more about Chritianity outside the bible, for these missionaries motivation may come from there.

Thaibebop wrote “What should we do when someone keeps coming back and back again trying to convince us that what we believe is wrong and what they believe is right and we should be more like them?”

Who are these people who try to convince you that you are wrong?  I do not wish to convince anyone of such a thing.  I will, however, share the gospel message with anyone ‘willing’ to listen.

Once again it's not about you. I will admit I know nothing about modern Christian culture in the UK, but in the US there are many groups who view the world in such a way and let everybody know it. Watch the 700 Club sometimes, they are just the surface of American Christians who are ready to go to war to bring the world under the yoke of God. I have meet many people here whose words concerning the non-believers frighten me, and they are organized and recuiting.

Furthermore, I wrote “There are some misunderstandings as to what a Christian is trying to do when spreading the gospel.”

Thaibebop wrote “What kind of confusion could there be? Converting, is the name of the game, The battle for souls and all. What are we missing?

What you are missing is…  Converting is not the name of the game, ‘the battle for souls’ means nothing to me, again not found anywhere in scripture.  Maybe that’s what you’re missing!

I think I covered this earlier, but just in case, the want to convert, they find a way for the bible to support, therefore there motivation is outside scripture.

And somewhat linked to above, I wrote “Firstly, I am not trying to 'save' anyone, only God does the saving.”

Thaibebop wrote “No, Jesus does that, unless who believe in the trinity I guess.”

No I am not a trinitarian, (I’m sure we covered this in previous posts) God does the saving, Jesus is the ‘saviour’. How can Jesus be the saviour if he doesn't do the saving? Just poking fun, ingore me.

Thaibebop, I’m sure from your experiences you have reasons for what you say.  Do not, however, assume that all Christians hold the same views or behave the same way, because I don’t.  Also, as previously covered, people are responsible for their bad behaviour, not God.  What people have done in the name of God is sometimes appalling, but don’t blame me or ‘all’ Christians for that – It’s just preposterous!

Once again, I am not blaming you nor do I wish. I respect you and your opinions because you are not a mindless toad, and have studied what you believe,and hold no ill will towards others. I am not speaking of you though, and this is just a conversation, there is nothing personal here. I know that not all Christians are the same, for that I am thankful. Yet, I feel sure that if you have seen and heard what I have heard, even you would not defend them so.

Sorry for the length of this posting, I hope it’s helped to clarify some things.

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