Scrapping AEC Rulings Would Spell Doom For Thailand: Chairman

[Skywalker69]

The Shinawatra "Brown Noses" is really on it in this thread.

[Siam Simon]

The Shinawatra "Brown Noses" is really on it in this thread.

Well that's a really useful addition to the debate How old are you? 10?.

[phiphidon]

"Zoning"

It has been claimed here but I have never seen any sources. I might just as well claim that it wasn't outside the zone. Back in 2003 I read that it was included for de-restriction but, as I said earlier, there never was enough information available to the public.

I take it that the word of Malee Manmintra the Deputy Director of Bangkok City Planning Department is not good enough for you.

Malee Manmintra the Deputy Director of Bangkok City Planning Department testified about the new Bangkok City Plan, and how this cancelled out the previous restrictions that were in place in the area surrounding the Thailand Cultural Centre and how the plan had originated from the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration, but did require cabinet approval before it could be legally implemented. She conceded that as a result of the new plan, land surrounding the Cultural Centre was now allowed to build taller buildings, but pointed out that this was more to do with land which was within 500 meters of the subway station, and the land which was auctioned to Pojaman Shinawatra was outside this zone.

I've snipped the rest of your rebuttals etc.If you can't be bothered reading the link I provided which provides the answers to most of your posts I can't be bothered answering them. The above is just one example, if you don't want to see that the AEC were pushing, if not bursting through the barriers of legality, fine, stick with your bias.

[phiphidon]

...More important, the AEC's work was not final. We had to pass it on for the attorney-general's consideration. If approved, the case was filed to the Supreme Court's division of criminal cases for political office holders. If a case was not approved, we set up a joint panel. If we agreed, we submitted the case to court; if not, the AEC filed the case alone. So the cases investigated by the AEC were completed at the court, not the AEC itself. ...

This says it all here, the COURTS are the ones getting data collated by the AEC,

AFTER being passed the Attorney Generals Office, and/or a joint committee of both AEC and AG offices. And in a few cases an AEC direct filing to the court,

but then the COURT is making any decisions of legality.

The AEC NEVER convicted anyone of anything.

There is no legal reason to invalidate their investigative work.

They were investigators and public accountants, and nothing more.

They were a group motivated enough to stand up to Thaksins Machine

in spite of spurious lawsuits, bribery, intimidation and baldfaced harassment.

Regardless of who appointed them their WORK was done within the laws,

and then adjudicated by courts in place before the coup.

And if they found sufficient evidence of a crime in speaking to two witnesses,

there is no pressing need for the other 298 to be spoken too.

Just lawyers attempts at stalling the business at hand.

This is no more than another way for Thaksin to try and wriggle of the hook he was legal hooked by.

The very fact that the case arose because of the military coup taints the entire process. Maybe the investigation itself was adequate, maybe the evidence is overwhelming, maybe the courts intended to be impartial, but the fact remains that this was a politically motivated action with alleged interference and influence brought upon the AEC and the courts. Even if everyone was unbiased, the very fact that there is a perception of bias is sufficient to declare a mistrial. This is the crux of the issue.

The issue isn't the evidence itself, nor even if Thaksin is guilty or not guilty. The process was corrupted at the start.

This is a fundamental legal issue involving impartiality. This is why the international community, particularly the west, has not attached validity to the judgement.

You claim the trial was tainted because the political rulers were biased against the defendant and then suggest a re-trial wouldn't be when the political rulers are on the payroll of the defendant!

Well for one thing the AEC doesn't exist anymore, so theres one step forward for impartiality.

[volk666]

Malee Manmintra the Deputy Director of Bangkok City Planning Department testified about the new Bangkok City Plan, and how this cancelled out the previous restrictions that were in place in the area surrounding the Thailand Cultural Centre and how the plan had originated from the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration, but did require cabinet approval before it could be legally implemented. She conceded that as a result of the new plan, land surrounding the Cultural Centre was now allowed to build taller buildings, but pointed out that this was more to do with land which was within 500 meters of the subway station, and the land which was auctioned to Pojaman Shinawatra was outside this zone.

She was the defense witness and her testimony differs from the information the same blogger, Slimdog, provided regarding the land in question:

"At the time of the auctions, all areas of Bangkok operated under a single Floor Area Ratio (FAR), which governed the maximum height and minimum open space allowed for each building. The Ministry of Culture wanted to preserve the area around the Thailand Cultural Centre. In order to enforce this, a Bangkok Metropolitan Authority (BMA) rule on the maximum height of any building close to the Thai Culture Centre was introduced,(The Ministerial Regulation No. 414, BE 2542 [1999]). This limited the height of any building to no more than 23 meters and also imposed some restrictions on development, and alteration of nearby properties.

On May 17th 2006 a new building regulation code was introduced into Bangkok, splitting the City into various zones, (Residential, Commercial and Industrial) with reduced Floor area ratios for much of metropolitan Bangkok. Previous restrictions, such as that applied to areas around the Thai cultural centre were effectively cancelled. Whilst the zoning regulations were the brainchild of the BMA, before introduction they required and received cabinet approval. "

According to Malee's testimony, however, "this was more to do with land which was within 500 meters of the subway station", ignoring the fact that the entire city was split into various zones with various rates for "floor to space" and "open space" ratios, so no, her word on the effect of new building regulation of 2006 is not enough and is rather confusing.

Slimdog's stated that the land was re-zoned and previous restrictions have been "effectively canceled", Malee, on the other hand, does not deny that and does not unequivocally state that new regulation did not apply to this land. She rather talks about some other arbitrary, "more to do with", formula and let us infer that if that formula were applied the restrictions would stay.

Maybe it indeed had "more to do with" plots near MRT but it doesn't mean that it also wasn't "just enough" to let Pojamarn build a high rise condo on her land, too.

http://slimdogsworld...uestion_30.html

I have no idea what the new floor to space ratio is for that particular area - 10:1, 8:1 or even 3:1, and no, you don't need to measure distances from MRT to decide on that, the entire city has already been split including areas where MRT will probably never ever reach.

If it's 8:1, for example, Pojamarn could build something with 400,000 sq.m on her land (of some 50k sq.m). That is the retail area of Siam Paragon, for reference. I have no idea how tall that building would be if she wanted to go high rather than wide. Much much taller than 23 meters, that's for sure.

I don't think AEC has ever mentioned this during the trial, these are suspicions raised by the public, not charges by prosecutors.

[Siam Simon]

Now the defense has lost its procedural arguments in court and are re-trying the case on public forums where there are no judges, no prosecution, no witnesses and no rebuttals. They hope that if they convince the public they can override the court decision. For us, TV members, in court of "public opinion", on larger scale via the parliament and amnesty/reconciliation.

Dear, oh dear! This forum certainly attracts the tin foil hat brigade. Check your room for listening devices before you go to bed, do you?

[Siam Simon]

I have no idea what the new floor to space ratio is for that particular area - 10:1, 8:1 or even 3:1, and no, you don't need to measure distances from MRT to decide on that, the entire city has already been split including areas where MRT will probably never ever reach.

If it's 8:1, for example, Pojamarn could build something with 400,000 sq.m on her land (of some 50k sq.m). That is the retail area of Siam Paragon, for reference. I have no idea how tall that building would be if she wanted to go high rather than wide. Much much taller than 23 meters, that's for sure.

I don't think AEC has ever mentioned this during the trial, these are suspicions raised by the public, not charges by prosecutors.

Sooooo.......you create a completely hypothetical scenario of what Pojaman could have done with the land......and the AEC never even mentioned your completely hypothetical scenario at the trial? Outrageous! Brace yourselves, folks, we're on our way through the looking glass on this one.

[volk666]

It's not my scenario, complaints were heard as soon as new zoning law came into power.

It's not my intention to prove that Pojamarn wanted to build a high rise condo on that land. It's a possibility and a "lucky coincidence" that new regulations signed by Thaksin raised the value of the land bought by his wife.

After all last year (and under the new zoning law) this plot has been sold for more than twice the value Pojamarn paid for it.

As I said earlier, it's practically impossible to prove that Thaksin knew in advance that old restrictions in that area would be lifted when the new zoning plan came into effect. It's equally impossible to believe that they didn't do their research about upcoming legislation before picking up the plot.

[geriatrickid]

You claim the trial was tainted because the political rulers were biased against the defendant and then suggest a re-trial wouldn't be when the political rulers are on the payroll of the defendant!

It's all part of the Fruit of the Poisoned Tree argument. Which conveniently ignores when the Poisoned Tree branched out, at the point Thaksin was absolved on the assets concealment case on the basis that, yes he is guilty, but applying the law would rise a stink.

That's when all this clusterf*** began, on being elected Thaksin got the veredict of "You are too popular to abide by the law". It's been downhill since then.

Somehow I doubt Thaksin and his supporters would be in favour of having a second go at that trial.

You don't know what the position of Thaksin is on another trial do you? So why postulate?

I believe that there is sufficient evidence to warrant a proper unbiased trial. Should Mr. Thaksin not agree, then that is where we part ways.

[geriatrickid]

It's not my scenario, complaints were heard as soon as new zoning law came into power.

It's not my intention to prove that Pojamarn wanted to build a high rise condo on that land. It's a possibility and a "lucky coincidence" that new regulations signed by Thaksin raised the value of the land bought by his wife.

After all last year (and under the new zoning law) this plot has been sold for more than twice the value Pojamarn paid for it.

As I said earlier, it's practically impossible to prove that Thaksin knew in advance that old restrictions in that area would be lifted when the new zoning plan came into effect. It's equally impossible to believe that they didn't do their research about upcoming legislation before picking up the plot.

Sounds like typical real estate business. I doubt whether Thaksin did the research or even knew. It was probably one of his real estate managers or advisers. This is not an excuse for lack of oversight, but how many banks have suffered because of rogue trading or because the traders/investment managers were far brighter than their bosses? People give too much credit to Thaksin's business abilities. He's got a team of advisers and managers and sometimes I wonder if the tail is wagging the dog.

[bigbamboo]

It's not my scenario, complaints were heard as soon as new zoning law came into power.

It's not my intention to prove that Pojamarn wanted to build a high rise condo on that land. It's a possibility and a "lucky coincidence" that new regulations signed by Thaksin raised the value of the land bought by his wife.

After all last year (and under the new zoning law) this plot has been sold for more than twice the value Pojamarn paid for it.

As I said earlier, it's practically impossible to prove that Thaksin knew in advance that old restrictions in that area would be lifted when the new zoning plan came into effect. It's equally impossible to believe that they didn't do their research about upcoming legislation before picking up the plot.

Sounds like typical real estate business. I doubt whether Thaksin did the research or even knew. It was probably one of his real estate managers or advisers. This is not an excuse for lack of oversight, but how many banks have suffered because of rogue trading or because the traders/investment managers were far brighter than their bosses? People give too much credit to Thaksin's business abilities. He's got a team of advisers and managers and sometimes I wonder if the tail is wagging the dog.

You cannot be serious!

[FOODLOVER]

My brain exploded.

[volk666]

Sounds like typical real estate business. I doubt whether Thaksin did the research or even knew. It was probably one of his real estate managers or advisers. This is not an excuse for lack of oversight, but how many banks have suffered because of rogue trading or because the traders/investment managers were far brighter than their bosses? People give too much credit to Thaksin's business abilities. He's got a team of advisers and managers and sometimes I wonder if the tail is wagging the dog.

Of course he got someone else to do the research for him and they did a great job picking a spot that more than doubled the value of HIS land.

Nice wagging, he had no idea he was so manipulated.

Next thing you know they declare him a victim of a real estate con or it was an opposition set up.

Which way is up and which way is down? And Foodlover's avatar - is it black dude on white background or white on black? It's become an alternate reality zone here.