Cholesterol Myth-Are Cardiologists Really Wrong?

[Tolley]

Here is what the Mayo clinic say about pomegranate juice.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pomegranate-juice/AN01227

Stacks of research papers on pomegranate juice. A lot of very good reports on cancer fighting properties, heart health etc.

Here is one

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23065001

[canman]

Thanks for the pomegranate references guys. The jury seems to still be out on its effectiveness in reversing plaque buildup, if I can find a source for unsugered juice I will start drinking it again. Then again the actual fruit seems to always be available here in Singapore so maybe better of eating the whole fruit a few time a week.

Off to the the cardiologist for an Angiogram tomorrow, the results of which will determine if they will put a stent in. Previously stents were made of metal and once installed were there for life. There is now a new stent made of a type of plastic which will dissolve in 2-3 years. If I need one and am suitable for the plastic one thats the way I will be going.

To anyone reading this thread who has not had their cholesterol checked, especially those of us considered middle aged please go and get it done. A heart CT is also a great diagnostic tool and may save your life by identifying problem areas. Highly recommended

[wilcopops]

Here is what the Mayo clinic say about pomegranate juice.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pomegranate-juice/AN01227

Stacks of research papers on pomegranate juice. A lot of very good reports on cancer fighting properties, heart health etc.

Here is one

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23065001

You really need to separate the wheat from the chaff here - and in the case of the address above, be able to read both the report and peer reiews on this before jumping to any conclusions - the study (I don't know how it has been re-tested) is about prostate and breast cancer with certain elements present in pomegranates. the test may simply have been conducted in a petrie dish

Edited August 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Here is what the Mayo clinic say about pomegranate juice.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pomegranate-juice/AN01227

Stacks of research papers on pomegranate juice. A lot of very good reports on cancer fighting properties, heart health etc.

Here is one

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23065001

Number of hits on google is not an indicator of efficacy!

[jrtmedic]

wilcopops

You are right to reserve some scepticism for some (most) academic laboratory studies. Many of these studies are blown out of proportion by tabloid reporting but the reality is that very few "discoveries" actually prove useful in a clinical setting.

Even for "successful" discoveries the full development of an effective treatment can take a decade or more.

If you read the link I gave to the Mayo clinic you will note a very conservative attitude being expressed toward the value of pomegranate juice !

[Tolley]

wilcopops

You are right to reserve some scepticism for some (most) academic laboratory studies. Many of these studies are blown out of proportion by tabloid reporting but the reality is that very few "discoveries" actually prove useful in a clinical setting.

Even for "successful" discoveries the full development of an effective treatment can take a decade or more.

If you read the link I gave to the Mayo clinic you will note a very conservative attitude being expressed toward the value of pomegranate juice !

Everything should be viewed sceptically when it comes to research. This is even more so when there are huge amounts of money involved as with many potential miracle cures.

The good thing about products like pomegranate juice is that side effects are negligible whilst there are some huge potential benefits. The problem of course is that there is no money in products you cant patent so little enthusiasm from the established medical community to really follow up on many of these findings.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Tolley

[jrtmedic]

"The good thing about products like pomegranate juice is that side effects are negligible"

Unless one is dependent on medication such as Warfarin !

Which the purveyors of "harmless" fruit juice will not tell about !

[jrtmedic]

Just a quick follow up

The link below details all (?) drug v pomegranate interactions.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/392.html

[Tolley]

Just a quick follow up

The link below details all (?) drug v pomegranate interactions.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/392.html

Well once you are on the prescription drug merry go round then all bets are off.

That is why if possible it is always better to try non pharmaceutical methods to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.

[canman]

Just a quick follow up

The link below details all (?) drug v pomegranate interactions.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/392.html

Well once you are on the prescription drug merry go round then all bets are off.

That is why if possible it is always better to try non pharmaceutical methods to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.

Agree totally. Had an agiogram yesterday which showed some minor narrowing in 2 arteries. No stents required. The cardiologist was pushing me to get started on statins, I did a deal with him saying I'll get the LDL down and HDL up with weight loss, diet and exercise. We agreed to reevaluate in 3 months.

I understand why these guys push the statins, most people simply will not be able to make the life style changes required to fix the problem or are genetically predisposed to bad cholesterol levels. Can I do it? That remains to be seen, all I can say is I am extremely motivated and have the support I need to get this done.

[chakatee]

Agree totally. Had an agiogram yesterday which showed some minor narrowing in 2 arteries. No stents required. The cardiologist was pushing me to get started on statins, I did a deal with him saying I'll get the LDL down and HDL up with weight loss, diet and exercise. We agreed to reevaluate in 3 months.

I understand why these guys push the statins, most people simply will not be able to make the life style changes required to fix the problem or are genetically predisposed to bad cholesterol levels. Can I do it? That remains to be seen, all I can say is I am extremely motivated and have the support I need to get this done.

They push statins because they are realistic. Even very strict diet control can only improve your LDL moderately and it's difficult to keep such up lifelong and all the plaque built up will be there to stay there. Your 2 minor narrowing are there to stay only get worse (which you need to make as slow as possible).

Low dose statins (lifelong) will do the job better and have little side effects. Of course diet, weight loss and exercise are important but see them as an additional risk-reduction rather than an alternative one.

I hope you're also on low dose aspirin ... (also lifelong)

[chiang mai]

I'd been on 20mg Crestor for five years before changing to 10mg Crestor and 10mg Ezetrol, the reason for the change was to decrease dependancy on high strength Crestor. That worked out well for about two years before my AST (liver) levels started to increase quite substantially, after six months of watching the levels slowly increase to around 100 I cut my Crestor dosage in half (5mg) and the AST levels dropped back to normal levels, I made up the difference via diet and exercise, my objective is to be totally free of Crestor by year end because it does damage the liver after time..

[wilcopops]

....most people had a lifetime of opportunities to ward of high cholesterol levels and various cardio-vascular problems, but they chose a life-style that inored the warnings - changing your life-style in later life can help, but no amount of eating patent "natural" "cures" is going to make a significant difference - you've done the damage and science is trying the best it can to prolong a reasonable healthy life.

[wilcopops]

Just a quick follow up

The link below details all (?) drug v pomegranate interactions.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/392.html

"Pomegranate is used for many conditions, but so far, there isn’t enough scientific evidence to rate pomegranate as effective for any of them."

[wilcopops]

I think a lot of people don't realise the HUGE amounts of money in "alternative" medicines - these unlike SBM usually avoid government inspection and verification..........which means they hae little or no quality control are often made in unhygienic circumstances and can claim anything they like until someone disproves it-----------which of course comes out of tax-payers money.

[canman]

Agree totally. Had an agiogram yesterday which showed some minor narrowing in 2 arteries. No stents required. The cardiologist was pushing me to get started on statins, I did a deal with him saying I'll get the LDL down and HDL up with weight loss, diet and exercise. We agreed to reevaluate in 3 months.

I understand why these guys push the statins, most people simply will not be able to make the life style changes required to fix the problem or are genetically predisposed to bad cholesterol levels. Can I do it? That remains to be seen, all I can say is I am extremely motivated and have the support I need to get this done.

They push statins because they are realistic. Even very strict diet control can only improve your LDL moderately and it's difficult to keep such up lifelong and all the plaque built up will be there to stay there. Your 2 minor narrowing are there to stay only get worse (which you need to make as slow as possible).

Low dose statins (lifelong) will do the job better and have little side effects. Of course diet, weight loss and exercise are important but see them as an additional risk-reduction rather than an alternative one.

I hope you're also on low dose aspirin ... (also lifelong)

Chakatee, I hear what you are saying. In my case I am coming off of a very low base with respect to lifestyle with respect to cholestorol values. 10 years ago my levels were ideal. Over the last 10 years weight, drink and a gradually increasing sedentary lifestyle have I hope caused the problem and can be reversed. If I don't see improvement after 3 months then I may have no choice but to take statins.

[wilcopops]

If you think that your health can be summarised with a pageful of numbers, I would urge you to think again!

Measuring things and putting it in numbers is generally excellent stuff, it's a matter of knowing how meaningful the numbers are.

If you find that comforting - my experience is that patients are more important than numbers

Edited August 23, 2013 by wilcopops

[chiang mai]

....most people had a lifetime of opportunities to ward of high cholesterol levels and various cardio-vascular problems, but they chose a life-style that inored the warnings - changing your life-style in later life can help, but no amount of eating patent "natural" "cures" is going to make a significant difference - you've done the damage and science is trying the best it can to prolong a reasonable healthy life.

I lived in the US and the UK until age 53, it's only in the last ten years that I've been in Asia on a permanent basis and started doing health exams every year that I had my first blood tests for cholesterol. Five years after I started doing them I had my fiirst stent although the cholesterol levels seen beforehand were not especially high. So yes and no to your point about having had a life time of opportunity to ward off high cholesterol and cardio-vasular problems, if I hadn't started doing health exams voluntarily I suspect that my CAD would not have been detected. And even in the year prior to my PCI, the cardiologist at Bumrungrad gave me the all clear on the stress test and my cholesterol levels.

[moe666]

One important thing not mentioned here is the Testosterone and Cholesterol relationship, if you have high C get your T checked, low T can be the cause of high C as the body is trying to produce more T. I have low C around 130 do not say great yet as there are many problem with low C. Memory loss, low T, and a few mental disorders to top it off I have been lucky so far just a bit of memory issue. Good luck on getting info on how to raise your C, they one thing that worked for a bit was lots of orange juice been then you have the sugar problem. Good luck to everyone no matter what your problem is

[cheeryble]

If you think that your health can be summarised with a pageful of numbers, I would urge you to think again!

Measuring things and putting it in numbers is generally excellent stuff, it's a matter of knowing how meaningful the numbers are.

If you find that comforting - my experience is that patients are more important than numbers

Completely inappropriate manufacturing my opinion then shooting it down.

Edited August 23, 2013 by cheeryble

[chiang mai]

Quite amazing really, whatever is the world comming to!

[wilcopops]

If you think that your health can be summarised with a pageful of numbers, I would urge you to think again!

Measuring things and putting it in numbers is generally excellent stuff, it's a matter of knowing how meaningful the numbers are.

If you find that comforting - my experience is that patients are more important than numbers

Completely inappropriate manufacturing my opinion then shooting it down.

Sorry I assumed you had your own opinion - but of course opinions have to be based on thought and logic.

[Sheryl]

OK, tone it down please, both of you.

[wilcopops]

In UK and Oz your medical records are with your GP - if you move away, follow you around from doctor to doctor. That way they get a good picture of your medical history, which is the single most important thing in judging someone's health. Nobody is the same and the human body is not like a machine - it is organic and individual. testing =can be incredibly misleading, particularly when interpreted by a new doctor who knows nothing about your medical past. Figures numbers and stats mean nothing until put in context - they are however a way for hospitals to make an easy buck.

An acquaintance recently had a liver examination handsome tests done, the doctor told him he was fine, which was contrary to what his UK Doc had told him.....he decided to take the "good news" and decided the UK doc was mistaken (didn't use the same shiny machines, I guess.). Of course on returning to the UK the doctor gave a further examination and reiterated his warning - the Thai doctor either didn't know how to diagnose or operate the equipment or carried out the wrong test

So the choice is ours - we can put our faith in a potentially ill-trained doc with a nice machine or someone who has a patient's entire medical history and is trained (as GPs are in diagnosis)

Edited August 23, 2013 by wilcopops

[Wrong Turn]

I'm glad I bumped this thread a couple weeks ago.