Tires

[Beardog]

Hi,

I just replaced my Yamaha Nuovo tires With Michelin 2.50 in the front & 2.75 in the rear.

the tires are wonderful compared to the stock crap tires it came with. they are 3 weeks old. On the second week I noticed a vibration (in the front end). the bike has never been in a wreck or even dropped.The tires were OK before just beat from 5000 kilos. I let my hands off the Handle bars & the bike started shaking like crazy. so Last week I had the rims retuned & it still had the same oroblem in the front.The bike was fine before replacing tires ---so I know it is the tire in front to blame.

The shop which used to be an ace place now tells me I have the wrong tire on the front that they put on & it is my fault.

They said don't take my hands off the bars & it wont shimmy. Piss poor answer I would say. I think the tire itself was casted poorly & is unbalanced.Since the shop does not have the proper setup for mounting & balancing tires like in the U.S. They really can't tell what is going on. does anyone know if the size is right. from what I gathered from the web it should work. most sites said .25 difference on front & rear was allowed. The height looked the same. He wanted to look at the tree on the bike but it was fine 3 weeks ago & never been in a wreck.

Are they blowin smoke up my ass. I will be going to a new shop & bringintg back my spoons & guages to set up my CB400 honda when I get it So I never have to hear lame excuses for errors.

[BigBikeBKK]

So the vibration wasn't present when the tires were new?

Then you don't know for sure that the vibration is caused by the tire.

For example it could be caused by a dent in the rim or a loose head bearing.

You know you can balance the tire yourself without any special tools, right?

Just make your own balancing stand and follow these simple instructions-

[Beardog]

So the vibration wasn't present when the tires were new?

Then you don't know for sure that the vibration is caused by the tire.

For example it could be caused by a dent in the rim or a loose head bearing.

You know you can balance the tire yourself without any special tools, right?

Just make your own balancing stand and follow these simple instructions-

No the opposit the old tires were balanced perfectly when new & when they turned old . The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end. I checked only axle bolt to make sure the tire was on tight. it was fine. The tire acts balanced when you spin it. The second it gets up to 20 kilos when I let my hand of the bars or hold it loosly it shimmies like crazy. I had a problem with the front continental on my 1000cc Kawi. when they rechecked the tire on the machine sure enough the casting within the tire was off & they threw a new tire on it & problem solved. The 2 questions I have is the 2.50 for the front tire the right size & has anyone had a similar problem on new tires here in Thailand. The problem arises at low speeds & seems to iron out at high speeds.

I loan this bike out to friends & Alisa's family. Not a problem for me . I am a mechanic by trade & know how to ride any deathtrap given. But not anyone else. Murphys law would bite me here. If the size is correct I will have another shop switch front to rear as I think that would correct the problem & replace the tire after a couple thousand kilos.

[KRS1]

Did yo leave the bike or watch them install the tires?

Sounds similar to a warped brake rotor, sometimes they stand/step on the tire to get the bead under the rim and warp the rotor in the process.

Or if you lend the bike out, a sudden emergency stop can also warp the brake rotor.

Edited April 11, 2012 by KRS1

[Beardog]

So the vibration wasn't present when the tires were new?

Then you don't know for sure that the vibration is caused by the tire.

For example it could be caused by a dent in the rim or a loose head bearing.

You know you can balance the tire yourself without any special tools, right?

Just make your own balancing stand and follow these simple instructions-

No the opposite the old tires were balanced perfectly when new & when they turned old . The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end. I checked only axle bolt to make sure the tire was on tight. it was fine. The tire acts balanced when you spin it. The second it gets up to 20 kilos when I let my hand of the bars or hold it loosly it shimmies like crazy. I had a problem with the front continental on my 1000cc Kawi. when they rechecked the tire on the machine sure enough the casting within the tire was off & they threw a new tire on it & problem solved. The 2 questions I have is the 2.50 for the front tire the right size & has anyone had a similar problem on new tires here in Thailand. The problem arises at low speeds & seems to iron out at high speeds.

I loan this bike out to friends & Alisa's family. Not a problem for me . I am a mechanic by trade & know how to ride any deathtrap given. But not anyone else. Murphys law would bite me here. If the size is correct I will have another shop switch front to rear as I think that would correct the problem & replace the tire after a couple thousand kilos.

The shop didn't balance the tires(no weights) but it did rotate fine on the bike itself & didn't have the balancing issue like in the video. It is only low speed wobble it irons out in top speeds. In the U.S. the tire shop I used for my superbikes used a device similar to a dynatune setup with a laser scope on each side to pinpoint the balancing problem. I know TIT & No Hab . I don't even know if the shop has the setup in the video or if thery just John Wayne it together & hope for the best.

Sorry about the double post only wanted to edit!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Beardog

[Beardog]

Did yo leave the bike or watch them install the tires?

Sounds similar to a warped brake disc, sometimes they stand/step on the tire to get the bead under the rim and warp the disc in the process.

No unfortunately I didn't watch the shop cause for 5 years they have done work satisfatory The rotor appears to spin freely & not drag anwhere & it measured equal with a straight edge taking 8 measurements. I don't think it is the rotor.

[karlos]

If the bike is ridden by other people it's quite likely that the rim has had a bash in such a way that it's cocked up your balancing.

How is the overall wear of the tyre too, you said it's been 'beat for 5000km' such bikes with a single caliper tend to wear out the front tyres unevenly and can cause feathering of the tread on one side/ and a lumpy surface.

[Beardog]

If the bike is ridden by other people it's quite likely that the rim has had a bash in such a way that it's cocked up your balancing.

How is the overall wear of the tyre too, you said it's been 'beat for 5000km' such bikes with a single caliper tend to wear out the front tyres unevenly and can cause feathering of the tread on one side/ and a lumpy surface.

The original tires that were on the bike wore perfect no scallping or any other problems other than showing the banding bars & needing replacing. The bike has only been ridden by me since the new michelins were put on . The problem was noticible on the 1st day I got the new tire. The rims are in good shape. The rear needed the spokes tuned & I thought that would help the problem as well on the front.It just started after the new tires. It took me a couple of weeks to take my hands off the handlebars to see if I can sense where the off feeling I get from the front tire. I only use the bike once or twice a week so that is why it took me 3 weeks to figure out that indeed something is not right.I though maybe the rim was dinged but not & nothing has changed since the tire was true until they replaced the tire.It has got to be in the front tire itself near as I can tell.i did have a set of bridgestone tires(on recall) that had a similar balance problem at low speeds cause the tire itself was delaminating between the sidewall of the tires. that was on a truck & I have no idea if they could have had a casting problem at mitchelin. It does happen from time to time.Does anyone know if 2.50 is compatible with the front tire of a Nuovo. It came with 80/90 stock on the front & was fine back then (even though it is a shitty tire at best from Dunlop) Dunlop is OK providing you don't keep the OEM version

[KRS1]

Did yo leave the bike or watch them install the tires?

Sounds similar to a warped brake disc, sometimes they stand/step on the tire to get the bead under the rim and warp the disc in the process.

No unfortunately I didn't watch the shop cause for 5 years they have done work satisfatory The rotor appears to spin freely & not drag anwhere & it measured equal with a straight edge taking 8 measurements. I don't think it is the rotor.

Maybe check the front bearings.

Ive gone through 2 warped rotors and i couldnt measure, see or notice any rubbing on the caliper when it was warped,even when i took it off and layed it on a flat surface i could not notice anything. Whenever i applied the brake it felt like a jackhammer.

Dont know if you have spokes or mags, but using the wrong size innertube will also cause the bike to shake. Alot of shops also dont realize a tubeless tire doesnt require an inner tube either.

[Beardog]

The bearings feel free when I spin the tire & the rotor has no chatter. i am pretty sure the intertube on the spoked tire is the same one as the old tire had when it was fine but old when I replaced it. The intertube was replace 5 weeks ago so it should be good for a while.

[vel_tins]

Are you really sure, you got genuine new Michelins and not some kind of thai/chinese copy or remoulded ones?

BTW: Never ever let your bike/car/bicycle/baby buggy/whatever, unattendent while Somchai is working on it!

Last week, I had a flat tire on my Isuzu truck, I filled it up and drove to a tyre repair shop on Thepprasit road/Pattaya. (MP gas station).

Well, Somchai took off the wheel, removed the tyre from the rim and repaired the flat. So far so good...

But than, he assembled the tyre back to the rim, without removing the former "balance weights".

I asked him, what's about the weights, "mai pen rai", was his answer...

Then I told him to balance the wheel (because it's a front wheel), result was 43 and 38 grams out-of-balance..

I think, the next drive on the motorway, would have been a "nice" experience..

Any more questions about average Somchais skills?

TIT

Edited April 11, 2012 by vel_tins

[karlos]

Are you really sure, you got genuine new Michelins and not some kind of thai/chinese copy or remoulded ones?

BTW: Never ever let your bike/car/bicycle/baby buggy/whatever, unattendent while Somchai is working on it!

Last week, I had a flat tire on my Isuzu truck, I filled it up and drove to a tyre repair shop on Thepprasit road/Pattaya. (MP gas station).

Well, Somchai took off the wheel, removed the tyre from the rim and repaired the flat. So far so good...

But than, he assembled the tyre back to the rim, without removing the former "balance weights".

I asked him, what's about the weights, "mai pen rai", was his answer...

Then I told him to balance the wheel (because it's a front wheel), result was 43 and 38 grams out-of-balance..

I think, the next drive on the motorway, would have been a "nice" experience..

Any more questions about average Somchais skills?

TIT

Not so much a lack of skill, he knows that he has to balance the wheel.

Just a question of how much money he needs that particular month, X amount of lead weights = a fair chunk of money to a Thai

But i do hear what you are saying about mechanics in general here in Thailand, some don't mind dingo 'half a job' if it saves them some money.

As for the tyres in question, it i quite possible that they could be fake Michelins, i have seen local scooter shops selling such tyres for crazy low prices and have heard many rumors about Chinese rubber here in Thailand. Some teenagers prefer to have the Michelin badge although it's on an inferior tyre compared to what came stock with their bike :S

[KRS1]

You can tell if they are real, if there are little Michelin men around the wall of the tire about 2 mm tall, they should be relatively sharp in detail.

If it looks like a blurry Michelin dude, it may be suspicious.

[Beardog]

You can tell if they are real, if there are little Michelin men around the wall of the tire about 2 mm tall, they should be relatively sharp in detail.

If it looks like a blurry Michelin dude, it may be suspicious.

Yea they got the little michelin dude on it & it is clear. But everything looks kosher on the 2 lawnmowers I bought both companies said serial numbers not even close...Must be a knockoff from China.Could be a factory second as well.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Beardog

[BigBikeBKK]

So the vibration wasn't present when the tires were new?

Then you don't know for sure that the vibration is caused by the tire.

For example it could be caused by a dent in the rim or a loose head bearing.

You know you can balance the tire yourself without any special tools, right?

Just make your own balancing stand and follow these simple instructions-

No the opposit the old tires were balanced perfectly when new & when they turned old . The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end. I checked only axle bolt to make sure the tire was on tight. it was fine. The tire acts balanced when you spin it. The second it gets up to 20 kilos when I let my hand of the bars or hold it loosly it shimmies like crazy. I had a problem with the front continental on my 1000cc Kawi. when they rechecked the tire on the machine sure enough the casting within the tire was off & they threw a new tire on it & problem solved. The 2 questions I have is the 2.50 for the front tire the right size & has anyone had a similar problem on new tires here in Thailand. The problem arises at low speeds & seems to iron out at high speeds.

I loan this bike out to friends & Alisa's family. Not a problem for me . I am a mechanic by trade & know how to ride any deathtrap given. But not anyone else. Murphys law would bite me here. If the size is correct I will have another shop switch front to rear as I think that would correct the problem & replace the tire after a couple thousand kilos.

Sorry I'm confused... In your OP you said:

"the tires are wonderful compared to the stock crap tires it came with. they are 3 weeks old. On the second week I noticed a vibration"

Then in your post above you say "The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end."

So, did the problem begin on the second week or on the day they installed the new tires?

Now you're saying the vibration begins at around 20kph.

Have you checked the torque on your steering head / triple tree? I don't know anything about your Nuovo scooter and I've seen some scooters that have non-traditional forks, but on bikes with normal triple clamps you're generally supposed to inspect and re-torque your steering head / triple tree every couple of years because they can get loose over time which can lead to headshake and vibration.

Edited April 11, 2012 by BigBikeBKK

[Beardog]

So the vibration wasn't present when the tires were new?

Then you don't know for sure that the vibration is caused by the tire.

For example it could be caused by a dent in the rim or a loose head bearing.

You know you can balance the tire yourself without any special tools, right?

Just make your own balancing stand and follow these simple instructions-

No the opposit the old tires were balanced perfectly when new & when they turned old . The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end. I checked only axle bolt to make sure the tire was on tight. it was fine. The tire acts balanced when you spin it. The second it gets up to 20 kilos when I let my hand of the bars or hold it loosly it shimmies like crazy. I had a problem with the front continental on my 1000cc Kawi. when they rechecked the tire on the machine sure enough the casting within the tire was off & they threw a new tire on it & problem solved. The 2 questions I have is the 2.50 for the front tire the right size & has anyone had a similar problem on new tires here in Thailand. The problem arises at low speeds & seems to iron out at high speeds.

I loan this bike out to friends & Alisa's family. Not a problem for me . I am a mechanic by trade & know how to ride any deathtrap given. But not anyone else. Murphys law would bite me here. If the size is correct I will have another shop switch front to rear as I think that would correct the problem & replace the tire after a couple thousand kilos.

Sorry I'm confused... In your OP you said:

"the tires are wonderful compared to the stock crap tires it came with. they are 3 weeks old. On the second week I noticed a vibration"

Then in your post above you say "The day they put the new tires on I noticed something off in the front end."

So, did the problem begin on the second week or on the day they installed the new tires?

Now you're saying the vibration begins at around 20kph.

Have you checked the torque on your steering head / triple tree? I don't know anything about your Nuovo scooter and I've seen some scooters that have non-traditional forks, but on bikes with normal triple clamps you're generally supposed to inspect and re-torque your steering head / triple tree every couple of years because they can get loose over time which can lead to headshake and vibration.

The tires are better than the stock tires way more grip. When they put the new tires on the bike seemed like something was loose in the front end. Within 2 weeks I let my hands free of the handle bars & the bike started to shimmy convulsavely. The problem is noticible at 20 kilos per hour & irons out wheen it hits 40-50 kpm. I will take the tire off today & confirm the wheel is balanced or not. At this point I am believing the tire itself has a flaw as it happened once before in America on my 1000KZ on a pair of Continentals. I thought I could swap the front & the rear but they did put 2.50 on the front & 2.75 on the rear so can't do that to check it. Worse case scenario I have to repurchase a dunlop 900 series & not the stock OEM tire. It is definitely in the front tire. The tree was fine on the bike 3 weeks ago (before thetire swap) & didn't look as if they dropped it off a building to change the tree. I did take off the cowling & check the tree & inspected the frame for hairline cracks (best I could without magnafluxing it). The frame & tree are perfect. It is an issue with the tire soley I believe. They stated I f-ked up & had the wrong tires put on the bike ---that the size of the front tire is too high. That sounds like out & out bullshit to me. And to make it more of a joke they are the jokers that sold me the tires. But hey I appreciate the help in this twisted whodunit case of the tire in Question!

Edited April 11, 2012 by Beardog

[vel_tins]

...That sounds like out & out bullshit to me...

Definitely.

The size has nothing to do with the vibrations.

The Somchais messed something up.

Sure you have your original rim back?

If spoked rims, maybe there's something wrong with the spokes, loosened perhaps?

Rim distorted?

Edited April 12, 2012 by vel_tins

[Beardog]

Well this morning I took the calipers off the rotor & tied it back ....Rotor seems fine definitely within scooter tolerences & not bent just actual wear for a year old Even on a superbike allright. The bearings spin free no problem. The rim on a static setup I made showed very very little wobble(not enough to have it shudder violently) {on the rim & then the tire itself} Put it all back together & went to 3 bike shops in Pattaya..None said the size of the tire in front or rear was wrong they all agreed the size was fine. They all said the same thing the medium topbox & gas shocks cause some unstability if you let your hands off the handlebars I might buy it if the box had 50-60 kilo's crammed into it...like metal weights.The gas shocks hardto believe that would cause any vibration, if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down. The only thing that may have made sense was the original shop I purchaced the bike at & The guy is a straight shooter. I have bought 5 bikes from him . He asked if I ever took my hands off the bars since I got the bike from him & I replied no.No reason to. It is a scooter & not a dream machine like the Road & street bikes I have had. A wheelie on a big bike is still fun , but on a scooter NOT!

My dealer said the bikes are known to shimmy if you don't hold the bars. I can live with it since there is no reason besides checking it out to go no handed especially on an auto without a clutch to speak of.

My road cruisers I could take my hands off the bars & put my head to the backrest cruise control & not have to touch the bars except occasionally. Great for 10 hour cruises. But it is only a scooter.

After my brand new Kawasaki boss in 2006 that came delivered with the front fender installed backwards DOH!!! & 2 bolts that were not tightened & fell out the bolts that suspend the engine onto the frame, I would believe anything is possible.

Last Thai bike I buy! I will not be bummed to pay triple the normal cost for a Japenese made rocket that doesn't come with rattles & stories. So I will probably never know what the story is unless I rent another Nuovo & see if the problem is inherent in the bike or if someone has an elegance & duplicates the problem at 20-30 kilos.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Beardog

[YipYipYa123]

Well this morning I took the calipers off the rotor & tied it back ....Rotor seems fine definitely within scooter tolerences & not bent just actual wear for a year old Even on a superbike allright. The bearings spin free no problem. The rim on a static setup I made showed very very little wobble(not enough to have it shudder violently) {on the rim & then the tire itself} Put it all back together & went to 3 bike shops in Pattaya..None said the size of the tire in front or rear was wrong they all agreed the size was fine. They all said the same thing the medium topbox & gas shocks cause some unstability if you let your hands off the handlebars I might buy it if the box had 50-60 kilo's crammed into it...like metal weights.The gas shocks hardto believe that would cause any vibration, if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down. The only thing that may have made sense was the original shop I purchaced the bike at & The guy is a straight shooter. I have bought 5 bikes from him . He asked if I ever took my hands off the bars since I got the bike from him & I replied no.No reason to. It is a scooter & not a dream machine like the Road & street bikes I have had. A wheelie on a big bike is still fun , but on a scooter NOT!

My dealer said the bikes are known to shimmy if you don't hold the bars. I can live with it since there is no reason besides checking it out to go no handed especially on an auto without a clutch to speak of.

My road cruisers I could take my hands off the bars & put my head to the backrest cruise control & not have to touch the bars except occasionally. Great for 10 hour cruises. But it is only a scooter.

After my brand new Kawasaki boss in 2006 that came delivered with the front fender installed backwards DOH!!! & 2 bolts that were not tightened & fell out the bolts that suspend the engine onto the frame, I would believe anything is possible.

Last Thai bike I buy! I will not be bummed to pay triple the normal cost for a Japenese made rocket that doesn't come with rattles & stories. So I will probably never know what the story is unless I rent another Nuovo & see if the problem is inherent in the bike or if someone has an elegance & duplicates the problem at 20-30 kilos.

i have an elegance and i can take my hands off the bars and it will roll straight up to the traffic lights ,it seems to be fairly well balanced machine on stock tyres but i looking to make an upgrade away from those stock rubbers and get some decent ones

[BigBikeBKK]

Well this morning I took the calipers off the rotor & tied it back ....Rotor seems fine definitely within scooter tolerences & not bent just actual wear for a year old Even on a superbike allright. The bearings spin free no problem. The rim on a static setup I made showed very very little wobble(not enough to have it shudder violently) {on the rim & then the tire itself} Put it all back together & went to 3 bike shops in Pattaya..None said the size of the tire in front or rear was wrong they all agreed the size was fine. They all said the same thing the medium topbox & gas shocks cause some unstability if you let your hands off the handlebars I might buy it if the box had 50-60 kilo's crammed into it...like metal weights.The gas shocks hardto believe that would cause any vibration, if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down. The only thing that may have made sense was the original shop I purchaced the bike at & The guy is a straight shooter. I have bought 5 bikes from him . He asked if I ever took my hands off the bars since I got the bike from him & I replied no.No reason to. It is a scooter & not a dream machine like the Road & street bikes I have had. A wheelie on a big bike is still fun , but on a scooter NOT!

My dealer said the bikes are known to shimmy if you don't hold the bars. I can live with it since there is no reason besides checking it out to go no handed especially on an auto without a clutch to speak of.

My road cruisers I could take my hands off the bars & put my head to the backrest cruise control & not have to touch the bars except occasionally. Great for 10 hour cruises. But it is only a scooter.

After my brand new Kawasaki boss in 2006 that came delivered with the front fender installed backwards DOH!!! & 2 bolts that were not tightened & fell out the bolts that suspend the engine onto the frame, I would believe anything is possible.

Last Thai bike I buy! I will not be bummed to pay triple the normal cost for a Japenese made rocket that doesn't come with rattles & stories. So I will probably never know what the story is unless I rent another Nuovo & see if the problem is inherent in the bike or if someone has an elegance & duplicates the problem at 20-30 kilos.

Aha, we learn a bit more!

"if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down."

I trust you know that changing the steering geometry in this fashion (raising the rear and/or dropping the front) renders a bike more unstable. This is why raked out cruisers are so stable, but hard to turn, while sport bikes with much smaller rake are so much more flickable, but can suffer from headshake.

When you drop the front or raise the rear you are in effect reducing the rake, which will make the scooter more unstable.

I expect that if you return your scoot to original rake that it will be a lot more stable.

Edited April 12, 2012 by BigBikeBKK

[Beardog]

Well this morning I took the calipers off the rotor & tied it back ....Rotor seems fine definitely within scooter tolerences & not bent just actual wear for a year old Even on a superbike allright. The bearings spin free no problem. The rim on a static setup I made showed very very little wobble(not enough to have it shudder violently) {on the rim & then the tire itself} Put it all back together & went to 3 bike shops in Pattaya..None said the size of the tire in front or rear was wrong they all agreed the size was fine. They all said the same thing the medium topbox & gas shocks cause some unstability if you let your hands off the handlebars I might buy it if the box had 50-60 kilo's crammed into it...like metal weights.The gas shocks hardto believe that would cause any vibration, if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down. The only thing that may have made sense was the original shop I purchaced the bike at & The guy is a straight shooter. I have bought 5 bikes from him . He asked if I ever took my hands off the bars since I got the bike from him & I replied no.No reason to. It is a scooter & not a dream machine like the Road & street bikes I have had. A wheelie on a big bike is still fun , but on a scooter NOT!

My dealer said the bikes are known to shimmy if you don't hold the bars. I can live with it since there is no reason besides checking it out to go no handed especially on an auto without a clutch to speak of.

My road cruisers I could take my hands off the bars & put my head to the backrest cruise control & not have to touch the bars except occasionally. Great for 10 hour cruises. But it is only a scooter.

After my brand new Kawasaki boss in 2006 that came delivered with the front fender installed backwards DOH!!! & 2 bolts that were not tightened & fell out the bolts that suspend the engine onto the frame, I would believe anything is possible.

Last Thai bike I buy! I will not be bummed to pay triple the normal cost for a Japenese made rocket that doesn't come with rattles & stories. So I will probably never know what the story is unless I rent another Nuovo & see if the problem is inherent in the bike or if someone has an elegance & duplicates the problem at 20-30 kilos.

Aha, we learn a bit more!

"if anything it raised the ass up 2cm. & pushes the front end down."

I trust you know that changing the steering geometry in this fashion (raising the rear and/or dropping the front) renders a bike more unstable. This is why raked out cruisers are so stable, but hard to turn, while sport bikes with much smaller rake are so much more flickable, but can suffer from headshake.

When you drop the front or raise the rear you are in effect reducing the rake, which will make the scooter more unstable.

I expect that if you return your scoot to original rake that it will be a lot more stable.

That make sense to me thanks alot more than the empty topbox on the back- I never thought on a little put put it would make that much difference. thats what I get for thinking. I think you nailed it on the head! Good that the man I buy my scooters & boss from was the closest. But it does make sense since the scooters do not have much lattitude for changes without effecting the overall ride. I could stick on the original OEM shocks to see but it wouldn't make much difference at this point. At least I don't have to buy another New new tire . Note to self Hold on to the handle bars!