Uk Police Arrest Five Terror Suspects Near London

[folium]

All Qadaffi was saying was just out breed the infidels. Seems they are doing that

He didn't even get that right. If you can prove that Europe is facing a demographic threat from muslims please provide the evidence.

2010 Pew report quotes a total of 44 million muslims in Europe in 2010 (6% of the total European population and 3% of total muslims worldwide). Funnily enough Thailand also has a 6% muslim share of its population. Perhaps they will soon be taking over Pattaya, Patong etc soon.

This doesn't necesarily have to do with overall numbers, but with concentration in specific areas. Most of Thailand's Muslims do not reside in Pattaya. If someone was to arrive down south as his first stop, he could get a different idea as to how many Muslims are around.

Saying Muslims are 6% of the population in Europe makes it sound like a non-issue. Considering that most immigrants tend to (1) stay in urban centers, and (2) stay near other immigrants - easy to get areas where those numbers will be quite different. Population concentrations play both in politics (especially in a democratic system) and in creating public perceptions (for good or bad)

Quite, sometimes a picture says a thousand words. Imagine you are rushing to catch a flight and need to get your car out pronto.

And the more level-headed reaction would be that there is obviously a demand for a mosque that is probably being held up in the planning process. Build the mosque and you wont be inconvenienced again. Heaven forbid!

[Steely Dan]

This doesn't necesarily have to do with overall numbers, but with concentration in specific areas. Most of Thailand's Muslims do not reside in Pattaya. If someone was to arrive down south as his first stop, he could get a different idea as to how many Muslims are around.

Saying Muslims are 6% of the population in Europe makes it sound like a non-issue. Considering that most immigrants tend to (1) stay in urban centers, and (2) stay near other immigrants - easy to get areas where those numbers will be quite different. Population concentrations play both in politics (especially in a democratic system) and in creating public perceptions (for good or bad)

The contrast between Pattani and Pattaya is like the contrast between Bradford and Truro in the UK. And that's the same throughout Europe with muslims tending to be concentrated in urban areas (not that that stops rural areas with a muslim immigrant as likely as a unicorn such as the UK's south-west and East Anglia being key recruiting grounds for racist organizations such as the BNP). Visiting an area with a large muslim population can thus give a totally disproportionate and inaccurate picture of the country as a whole.

The muslim population of Europe is a non-issue in terms of the Eurabia theory of a takeover of Europe by the dastardly muslim types. Again check out the Pew Research Jan 2011 report below.

http://www.pewforum....nal-europe.aspx

The interesting place will be Russia with an estimated 19million muslims by 2030, making up some 15% of the total population as the non-muslim Russian population goes into a demographic nosedive.

It isn't just about appearances, population concentrations mean power. Especially so in case of minority groups and more so when religion is strongly involved. Minority groups, in general, exhibit more cohesive positions, religion magnifying the effect. When taken in the context of democratic societies, such groups can actually achieve quite a bit.

That by itself isn't a bad thing, perhaps, but when mixed with radical religious notions - it does present a problem.

Dealing with an evenly spread out 6% minority is one thing, coming to terms with zones where the minority group is actually in control (or a serious effect, anyway) is another.

Quite so, as the Norwegian ruling socialists recently found out when immigrants block voted for immigrant candidates resulting in them taking control of Oslo council. They are spitting feathers about being hoisted on their own petard - This perfectly demonstrates what happens when high concentrations of sectarian voters. Also non-assimilating ghettos tend to become breeding grounds for radicalism, which is why for example Thailand's Muslim problem is only that in the deep South.

[folium]

I am not tying to downplay the threat of muslim terrorism in Europe as it does represent the main security challenge today

This is the point that other posters are trying to make.

I don't think anyone would dispute that in Europe today the main security risk comes from muslim extremists. But luckily they have not been very effective to date and their impact has been relatively limited. Compare that to the Brighton bombing or the mortar attack on Downing St, 2 highly effective, well-planned operations that only narrowly missed their primary target.

The level of threat currently faced in Europe certainly does not justify wholescale demonization of all muslims and such short-sighted bigotry only makes the terrorists job easier as it wil serve as a fantastic recruiting tool. Rather like the disaster of internment in Northern Ireland where a misguided, poorly planned operation spectacularly backfired.

[folium]

This doesn't necesarily have to do with overall numbers, but with concentration in specific areas. Most of Thailand's Muslims do not reside in Pattaya. If someone was to arrive down south as his first stop, he could get a different idea as to how many Muslims are around.

Saying Muslims are 6% of the population in Europe makes it sound like a non-issue. Considering that most immigrants tend to (1) stay in urban centers, and (2) stay near other immigrants - easy to get areas where those numbers will be quite different. Population concentrations play both in politics (especially in a democratic system) and in creating public perceptions (for good or bad)

The contrast between Pattani and Pattaya is like the contrast between Bradford and Truro in the UK. And that's the same throughout Europe with muslims tending to be concentrated in urban areas (not that that stops rural areas with a muslim immigrant as likely as a unicorn such as the UK's south-west and East Anglia being key recruiting grounds for racist organizations such as the BNP). Visiting an area with a large muslim population can thus give a totally disproportionate and inaccurate picture of the country as a whole.

The muslim population of Europe is a non-issue in terms of the Eurabia theory of a takeover of Europe by the dastardly muslim types. Again check out the Pew Research Jan 2011 report below.

http://www.pewforum....nal-europe.aspx

The interesting place will be Russia with an estimated 19million muslims by 2030, making up some 15% of the total population as the non-muslim Russian population goes into a demographic nosedive.

It isn't just about appearances, population concentrations mean power. Especially so in case of minority groups and more so when religion is strongly involved. Minority groups, in general, exhibit more cohesive positions, religion magnifying the effect. When taken in the context of democratic societies, such groups can actually achieve quite a bit.

That by itself isn't a bad thing, perhaps, but when mixed with radical religious notions - it does present a problem.

Dealing with an evenly spread out 6% minority is one thing, coming to terms with zones where the minority group is actually in control (or a serious effect, anyway) is another.

Quite so, as the Norwegian ruling socialists recently found out when immigrants block voted for immigrant candidates resulting in them taking control of Oslo council. They are spitting feathers about being hoisted on their own petard - This perfectly demonstrates what happens when high concentrations of sectarian voters. Also non-assimilating ghettos tend to become breeding grounds for radicalism, which is why for example Thailand's Muslim problem is only that in the deep South.

And that's where an overly narrow focus on religion obscures the true complexity of the situation.

Radicalism in any society is a cocktail of political, economic, nationalistic, ethnic, social and religious factors.

[folium]

Are there other minority immigrant groups, anywhere in the world, that are tied up to this extent with violent actions in the host countries?

How about latino drug gangs in the USA. Chinese triads in Europe and N.America. Jamaican Yardies in London. Russian mafiosi in Pattaya. Sikh extremists in Canada (now largely out of commission).

[folium]

Also non-assimilating ghettos tend to become breeding grounds for radicalism..

Seems to be plenty of non-assimilating farang ghettoes in Thailand. Not witnessed much radicalism, apart from hot air on TV forums and the spinning of tall stories of derring-do while propping up some bar.

[Steely Dan]

Also non-assimilating ghettos tend to become breeding grounds for radicalism..

Seems to be plenty of non-assimilating farang ghettoes in Thailand. Not witnessed much radicalism, apart from hot air on TV forums and the spinning of tall stories of derring-do while propping up some bar.

That's because there is no common ideology behind the farang ghettoes, expect perhaps hedonism. Actually I would be in favour of spreading out the immigrants far more evenly, which would I guess fight both the assimilation and xenophobia issues at once. Perhaps on the streets where the BBC execs live there should be a community center or Mosque, so when doing their community programs there will be no need to send outside broadcast units to Dewsbury or Luton, after first of course ensuring a vehicle tracking unit was fitted.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Morch]

Are there other minority immigrant groups, anywhere in the world, that are tied up to this extent with violent actions in the host countries?

How about latino drug gangs in the USA. Chinese triads in Europe and N.America. Jamaican Yardies in London. Russian mafiosi in Pattaya. Sikh extremists in Canada (now largely out of commission).

Do any of those carry terrorist attacks directed at citizens host countries?

Because I don't think you're 300 casualties figure included victims of criminal activities by Muslim gangs etc, right? Those aren't defined as terrorist actions.

[Morch]

Also non-assimilating ghettos tend to become breeding grounds for radicalism..

Seems to be plenty of non-assimilating farang ghettoes in Thailand. Not witnessed much radicalism, apart from hot air on TV forums and the spinning of tall stories of derring-do while propping up some bar.

We don't get voting rights quite so easily, here.

We are not a minority group as such, not having common background etc.

Most of us come from countries were debate is the accepted norm.

And on and on....

[folium]

We don't get voting rights quite so easily, here.

We are not a minority group as such, not having common background etc.

Most of us come from countries were debate is the accepted norm.

And on and on....

Taxation without representation, that's always been a good spark for radicalism.

Farangs are a distinct minority group in Thailand, and just like the muslims of Europe come from many different source nations so are hard to lump together apart from by race.

I thought "free speech is now hate speech" and thus repressed in most western countries.

perhaps it's like the classic scene from the movie "the Commitments", when the lead states " the Irish are the blacks of Europe, the Dubliners the blacks of Ireland, and the northsiders the blacks of Dublin...so I'm black and proud of it!"

perhaps the Thai version would be: "farangs are the muslim radicals of SE Asia, Pattaya farangs are the muslim radicals of Thailand, and Walking Street farangs are the muslim radicals of Pattaya" so come on UG, Dan and Colin let's hear you say "I'm a muslim radical and proud of it"....!!

[Morch]

We don't get voting rights quite so easily, here.

We are not a minority group as such, not having common background etc.

Most of us come from countries were debate is the accepted norm.

And on and on....

Taxation without representation, that's always been a good spark for radicalism.

Farangs are a distinct minority group in Thailand, and just like the muslims of Europe come from many different source nations so are hard to lump together apart from by race.

Seems like you have radicalism on the march in Europe even with representation.

This isn't an either/or kinda thing, just needs some checks and balances applied.

Distinct how? Other than being foreigners in Thailand, what, other than a similar visa stamp in our passports make us a group? Language? Politics? Race? Religion? It's mostly a bureaucratic definition here. Nothing more.

How is this the same as "Muslims in Europe" - isn't sharing a religion more of a common ground than sharing a beer? (well...ok...depends how many beers we're talking about, probably :-)). The lumping in Europe uses the "religious" aspect, not the "foreigner" one. Must be for some obscure reason