Book Notes CIA-Thai Link

[Johpa]

Not torture?? What rock did you just crawl out from under? A right-wing nut radio shock jock in the USA famously boasted that water boarding was not torture and that he would happily volunteer to try it out. He last 3 seconds and emphatically proclaimed - "this is absolutely Torture!"

Which says far more about your typical right wing radio personality than about the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique. It has been reported that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been waterboarded well over 100 times at Guantanamo. That fact alone should dispel the myth that waterboarding is an effective interrgoation technique, although it would support the idea that Mr. Rodriguez and some of his CIA colleagues are merely sadists. As an American citizen, the authorized use of torture is just another very dark stain left upon my country. Torture is just entertainment for sadists and those who would support torture as an interrogation technique are merely showing their own closeted tendencies towards that particular standard deviation from the norm.

And for what it is worth, there have been unmarked white 737s at Don Muang since as long as I can remember, and that dates back to the early 1980s.

[GentlemanJim]

Not torture?? What rock did you just crawl out from under? A right-wing nut radio shock jock in the USA famously boasted that water boarding was not torture and that he would happily volunteer to try it out. He last 3 seconds and emphatically proclaimed - "this is absolutely Torture!"

Which says far more about your typical right wing radio personality than about the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique. It has been reported that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been waterboarded well over 100 times at Guantanamo. That fact alone should dispel the myth that waterboarding is an effective interrgoation technique, although it would support the idea that Mr. Rodriguez and some of his CIA colleagues are merely sadists. As an American citizen, the authorized use of torture is just another very dark stain left upon my country. Torture is just entertainment for sadists and those who would support torture as an interrogation technique are merely showing their own closeted tendencies towards that particular standard deviation from the norm.

And for what it is worth, there have been unmarked white 737s at Don Muang since as long as I can remember, and that dates back to the early 1980s.

If there could be any justification for water boarding at all it would be if it was known that the captive had information that had to be gained either immediately or within the following 48 hours, after that there is no point. Sleep depravation is by far one of the most effective ways ever to get people to talk. It is non invasive, non physical and unless you keep it going without stop for 20 days, non fatal. ANYBODY will sing like a canary after 4 days, you cannot stop yourself. The concept of water boarding someone 100 times is nigh on pathetic.

[davidstipek]

Just because the court says a person is innocent it does not make them innocent. Case in point O J Simpson.

Just because a court says they are guilty it does not make them guilty. In North America their is a lot of people who were convicted served many years in jail only to have DNA or other evidence prove them innocent.

The reality that people from the western cultures are unable to face is that if a person did some thing wrong he is guilty if they did nothing wrong they are innocent, And no matter what a court of law says they can not change that fact.

If the states were to arrest some one like Hitler today and not read him his rights before he confessed they would let him go free,

I understand your point!

So I would say lets torture you! Because I say you are a terrorist.

Don't tell me, you aren't. You just told that that we can't believe the courts, so someone must have a say.

Me, or someone else who can freely decide without anyone knows???

And not even thinking about pressure: Bring me 5 Terrorists NOW.....just taking the next 5 men.

There are already so many well known, well documented cases where the killed the wrong person. And why messing around in countries like Iraq?? There were no Taliban, just oil.

Oil?? did Someone just say Oil?? Back in the 50's Did we not have Oil off the coast of Vietnam...Drilling rights? Which big Money (Oil Company got them...?) Seems if you all just step back a step or two and look at Each of the countries where there has been a war since then... what was the state of their Natural Resources. Before, during and after...

There if proof that alot of money was made by the wrong people for the wrong purposes... to promote this event over here we need to push this a little over there... Let fly these cow's down here and maybe we can get him to turn his back while we gather this crop and harvest it to initiate this down there....

What ever the reasons... it was wrong! What ever the results, right or wrong... there is a 98% it was collected and gathered and solicitated...WRONG!

No Arguement, No Stand to take! Plain and Simple....

2 Wrongs... Don't make a Right!

Not in My Book!!!

[GentlemanJim]

Just because the court says a person is innocent it does not make them innocent. Case in point O J Simpson.

Just because a court says they are guilty it does not make them guilty. In North America their is a lot of people who were convicted served many years in jail only to have DNA or other evidence prove them innocent.

The reality that people from the western cultures are unable to face is that if a person did some thing wrong he is guilty if they did nothing wrong they are innocent, And no matter what a court of law says they can not change that fact.

If the states were to arrest some one like Hitler today and not read him his rights before he confessed they would let him go free,

I understand your point!

So I would say lets torture you! Because I say you are a terrorist.

Don't tell me, you aren't. You just told that that we can't believe the courts, so someone must have a say.

Me, or someone else who can freely decide without anyone knows???

And not even thinking about pressure: Bring me 5 Terrorists NOW.....just taking the next 5 men.

There are already so many well known, well documented cases where the killed the wrong person. And why messing around in countries like Iraq?? There were no Taliban, just oil.

Oil?? did Someone just say Oil?? Back in the 50's Did we not have Oil off the coast of Vietnam...Drilling rights? Which big Money (Oil Company got them...?) Seems if you all just step back a step or two and look at Each of the countries where there has been a war since then... what was the state of their Natural Resources. Before, during and after...

There if proof that alot of money was made by the wrong people for the wrong purposes... to promote this event over here we need to push this a little over there... Let fly these cow's down here and maybe we can get him to turn his back while we gather this crop and harvest it to initiate this down there....

What ever the reasons... it was wrong! What ever the results, right or wrong... there is a 98% it was collected and gathered and solicitated...WRONG!

No Arguement, No Stand to take! Plain and Simple....

2 Wrongs... Don't make a Right!

Not in My Book!!!

David

A slight thread drift but for intelligent people, a good one, as we have no control over subjects raised here on 'News', yet it's mainly those with a brain that show their face here. So to further the interests of intelligent debate, I concur completely. What continues to trouble me (and I genuinely mean that), is that the US finds everyway possible to ensure that it cannot drill into it's own oil reserves. We have most of Alaska, and many other very rich deposits claimed now to be in 'National Parks', and then we have the BP disaster which conveniently stopped any further exploratory drilling. The USA continues to ravish the worlds oil reserves and when they are all gone, then the USA will be in control of the largest oil reserves on the planet, the ones that were conveniently put in 'National Parks' etc will then be available to the US and the US alone. My Grandchildren will mark my words! Thanks for the expansion. It is important. I am back to thread Mods

Edited April 28, 2012 by GentlemanJim

[nurofiend]

Hang on didn't the U.S strongly deny they had any such thing in Thailand and torturing of people was not the American way? Either this guy is lying or the prim and proper U.S.A is lying. Either way I think this guy is going to be in a lot of trouble and the U.S are not going to like what he is saying. "Dead man Walking"

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

how would you describe waterboarding then? fun pastime?

let's hear your word that sums it up?

[pimay11]

Not torture?? What rock did you just crawl out from under? A right-wing nut radio shock jock in the USA famously boasted that water boarding was not torture and that he would happily volunteer to try it out. He last 3 seconds and emphatically proclaimed - "this is absolutely Torture!"

Which says far more about your typical right wing radio personality than about the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique. It has been reported that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been waterboarded well over 100 times at Guantanamo. That fact alone should dispel the myth that waterboarding is an effective interrgoation technique, although it would support the idea that Mr. Rodriguez and some of his CIA colleagues are merely sadists. As an American citizen, the authorized use of torture is just another very dark stain left upon my country. Torture is just entertainment for sadists and those who would support torture as an interrogation technique are merely showing their own closeted tendencies towards that particular standard deviation from the norm.

And for what it is worth, there have been unmarked white 737s at Don Muang since as long as I can remember, and that dates back to the early 1980s.

Khalid Seikh Mohammed is the self-described mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, a man who called himself a “jackal” and who explained away the 3,000 victims of that day by saying, “The language of war is victims.” I just regret I was not the one doing the waterboarding on this piece of sub human scum.

[grantbkk]

Hang on didn't the U.S strongly deny they had any such thing in Thailand and torturing of people was not the American way? Either this guy is lying or the prim and proper U.S.A is lying. Either way I think this guy is going to be in a lot of trouble and the U.S are not going to like what he is saying. "Dead man Walking"

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

how would you describe waterboarding then? fun pastime?

let's hear your word that sums it up?

Enhanced interrogation. Gives a sensation of drowning. No one actually dies from it if administered correctly.

[Johpa]

]Khalid Seikh Mohammed is the self-described mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, a man who called himself a “jackal” and who explained away the 3,000 victims of that day by saying, “The language of war is victims.” I just regret I was not the one doing the waterboarding on this piece of sub human scum.

Yes, there are many people who would like to revenge the 9-11 attacks and who might enjoy inflicting harm upon the man and get pleasure out of it. And others here too actually get pleasure out of vicariously imagining the sufferings of the man. But supposedly revenge was not the intent here. The intent was to gather intelligence in order to prevent another such attack. And for that purpose waterboarding, and any other method that equates to torture, is usually ineffective and counter productive.

The bottom line is that Mr. Rodriguez's book is a response to Mr. Soufan's book, which also touches upon Thailand, and of course, without much to back himself up, it appears Mr. Rodriguez is piggy backing upon the endemic anti-Obama sentiment that has permeated the far right since November, 2008.

[nurofiend]

Hang on didn't the U.S strongly deny they had any such thing in Thailand and torturing of people was not the American way? Either this guy is lying or the prim and proper U.S.A is lying. Either way I think this guy is going to be in a lot of trouble and the U.S are not going to like what he is saying. "Dead man Walking"

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

how would you describe waterboarding then? fun pastime?

let's hear your word that sums it up?

Enhanced interrogation. Gives a sensation of drowning. No one actually dies from it if administered correctly.

"Gives a sensation of drowning"

i know what it is.

no one dies from being whipped either, if administered correctly... or do you only consider physical damage torture?

'enhanced interrogation' eh.

you don't think giving someone the sensation that they are drowning is torturous? i think it would fall pretty nicely within the definition of torture.

because i'd imagine the feeling of drowning pretty torturous.

[GentlemanJim]

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

how would you describe waterboarding then? fun pastime?

let's hear your word that sums it up?

Enhanced interrogation. Gives a sensation of drowning. No one actually dies from it if administered correctly.

"Gives a sensation of drowning"

i know what it is.

no one dies from being whipped either, if administered correctly... or do you only consider physical damage torture?

'enhanced interrogation' eh.

you don't think giving someone the sensation that they are drowning is torturous? i think it would fall pretty nicely within the definition of torture.

because i'd imagine the feeling of drowning pretty torturous.

Nor would people die from having their finger and toe nails ripped out and their teeth broken off, or having electrodes attached to their gonads and a car battery. The fact is though it is torture grantBKK. Just what line is used to delineate different techniques in 'enhanced interrogation'? What if it is not administered correctly? Well...they do actually drown. Which "most" do not consider water boarding torture?

[chooka]

Hang on didn't the U.S strongly deny they had any such thing in Thailand and torturing of people was not the American way? Either this guy is lying or the prim and proper U.S.A is lying. Either way I think this guy is going to be in a lot of trouble and the U.S are not going to like what he is saying. "Dead man Walking"

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

Waterboarding was considered torture by the US during the WW2, hence why the executed some Japanese soldiers/guards for war-crimes after they did it to American POWs.

I guess it is only considered torture when it is done on thier own. If the Americans are doing it then it is perfectly acceptable. American attitude is do as I bloody well say and not as I do.

[chooka]

Australia relies on the US for its military muscle and has since 1942. So does Thailand. I am not a big fan of the arrangement either. But that's the way it is. I think everyone should be paying for the protection. Kinda of like the Chicago mob.

I think it is the other way around, the U.S rely heavily on countries like Australia and it's other allies to back them to go into places like irak/afganistan. The U.S is now heavily indebted to Australia.

[chooka]

Hang on didn't the U.S strongly deny they had any such thing in Thailand and torturing of people was not the American way? Either this guy is lying or the prim and proper U.S.A is lying. Either way I think this guy is going to be in a lot of trouble and the U.S are not going to like what he is saying. "Dead man Walking"

Waterboarding isn't considered by most as torture. Much ado about nothing really. This will certainly bring out the USA haters and cry babies. The author is perfectly safe and the sky is not falling.

Question? Do you really understand what "waterboarding " is all about? If its as harmless as you suggest why don't we get together with an elevated plank, a few rags, a couple of buckets of water you can lie down and I'll pour...OK?

Waterboarding is a form of torture in which water is poured over the face of an immobilized captive, thus causing the individual to experience the sensation of drowning. Waterboarding can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage and death.^[1] Adverse physical consequences can manifest themselves months after the event, while psychological effects can last for years.

Sounds pretty nasty to me.

[kerryk]

Australia relies on the US for its military muscle and has since 1942. So does Thailand. I am not a big fan of the arrangement either. But that's the way it is. I think everyone should be paying for the protection. Kinda of like the Chicago mob.

I think it is the other way around, the U.S rely heavily on countries like Australia and it's other allies to back them to go into places like irak/afganistan. The U.S is now heavily indebted to Australia.

Nice to see you back I assume George is on the way. I want to say thanks if you never heard it before. Australia stood with American in Vietnam when the Brits couldn't afford to. And I will always appreciate that. And to the ladies in Kings Cross for R&R. God bless em all.

And Chooka you probably realize I am not a waterboarding kind of guy. I don't agree with it.

Edited April 30, 2012 by kerryk

[grantbkk]

Double post. My apologies.

Edited April 30, 2012 by grantbkk

[grantbkk]

I realize Mr. Nurofiend, Gentleman Jim and some others find a bit of water up your nose both appalling and perverse. I will not be able to change your perception which has become your reality. Comparing a bit of water on your face to maiming, disfiguring and electrifying "gonads" demonstrates a complete lack of understanding and naiveté of the matter at hand.

Unlike some I am too old to start a new family or to deal with the senseless death of family or friends by ignorant, weak, fanatical radicalized religious zealots. "Most" relatives or acquaintances of 9/11, 7/7 (London) or Madrid bombings would like to reduce the chances of it happening again. I say splashing a little water into the face of a suspected terrorist to prevent the death of innocents, while maybe not being politically correct, was a tool to save non-combatants. This is my last word on the subject for now.

Peace.

Edited April 30, 2012 by grantbkk

[Johpa]

Last night Mr. Rodriguez was the featured subject of an interview on the well known US TV news show 60 Minutes. As I suspected, and noted earlier in this thread, the Rodriguez book was a response to claims by FBI interrogator Ali Soufan in his book Black Banners that the CIA was counter productive with its use of "enhanced" interogation techniques. Of course we get the "he said she said" stalemate of who to believe. I would suggest watching an interview with Mr. Soufan, and then try to track down the 60 Minute interview online with Mr. Rodriguez and then flip your own coin as to who to believe. My own opinion was not changed in the least after last night, just another chapter to add to the next edition in the book Legacy of Ashes.