Middle Class In Thailand

[TommoPhysicist]

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.

Most of the problems are caused by those in charge taking 95% of the cake .... leaving a little bit more for everyone else would solve everything.

Three people having coffee together, a socialist, a liberal and a banker. On the table is a plate with 10 biscuits.

The banker grabs 9 biscuits for himself then turns to the liberal and whispers, "watch out I think the socialist is about to take your biscuit".

[GuestHouse]

europeans love talking of middle class as it always leads to that which they hold most dear, entitlements.

Wrong

Lower class have entitlement,

Middle class pay their own way.

Socialism helps those less able or less fortunate.

Capitalism kicks them in the teeth when they are down.

I think while I agree with much of what yiu say about class, we disagree in this point.

I believe the truth is the middle class receive far more from society than the working class and poor- The get more out of educational, healrh, and social programs - largely due to their aocial and political activism.

[PattayaParent]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

The majority of low middle class.

So you think the middle middle class and the upper middle class around the world pay cash for their cars and houses??

[GuestHouse]

europeans love talking of middle class as it always leads to that which they hold most dear, entitlements.

Wrong

Lower class have entitlement,

Middle class pay their own way.

Socialism helps those less able or less fortunate.

Capitalism kicks them in the teeth when they are down.

i was talking of class in general.

in greece they riot against austerity yet still expect the free stuff to continue.

in america Obama is telling his sheep that the rich should pay more. the bush tax cuts on the highest bracket are < 5% of the deficit. pure politics. the rich may be corrupt but it is no solution. not even close.

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.

Your having a laugh right.

The US is arguably the worlds greatest subsidy, government handout, protectionist economy on the planet. Take a look at subsidies to farmers oh and the US stake in the automotive business.

In absolutely no position to lecture anyone about free trade - but don't let that stop them!

[brit1984]

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.

Most of the problems are caused by those in charge taking 95% of the cake .... leaving a little bit more for everyone else would solve everything.

...in my opinion, the problem is the masses of bone-idle rapscallions guided by a sense of entitlement (to a slice of cake in your metaphor) without contributing much if any net taxation (or ingredients in your metaphor)...

[wana]

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.

Most of the problems are caused by those in charge taking 95% of the cake .... leaving a little bit more for everyone else would solve everything.

...in my opinion, the problem is the masses of bone-idle rapscallions guided by a sense of entitlement (to a slice of cake in your metaphor) without contributing much if any net taxation (or ingredients in your metaphor)...

to be fair ,many of the same people in thailand who complain about getting no help or aid from the government are the same bunch of lao kao drinkers who would laugh hysterically if you asked them how much tax do they pay every year

People put nothing in ,and then complain when they need to take something out ...........

spend all your money on beer every night ,then when the motorbike breaks down and needs a new engine ,you have no money to fix it and start hitting people for loans you cant afford to return

same thai mentality.........

[brit1984]

so everyone in the west is going to have their cake and eat it too... until one day when the man comes around.

Most of the problems are caused by those in charge taking 95% of the cake .... leaving a little bit more for everyone else would solve everything.

...in my opinion, the problem is the masses of bone-idle rapscallions guided by a sense of entitlement (to a slice of cake in your metaphor) without contributing much if any net taxation (or ingredients in your metaphor)...

to be fair ,many of the same people in thailand who complain about getting no help or aid from the government are the same bunch of lao kao drinkers who would laugh hysterically if you asked them how much tax do they pay every year

People put nothing in ,and then complain when they need to take something out ...........

spend all your money on beer every night ,then when the motorbike breaks down and needs a new engine ,you have no money to fix it and start hitting people for loans you cant afford to return

same thai mentality.........

People often talk about the injustice of the income and wealth gap between rich and poor in Thailand... I would be more worried about the injustice that only 2 million pay tax (yet all the free-riders get a vote)

[GuestHouse]

People often talk about the injustice of the income and wealth gap between rich and poor in Thailand... I would be more worried about the injustice that only 2 million pay tax (yet all the free-riders get a vote)

I take it you are referring to 'income tax', a progressive tax that many do not pay (indeed many extremely wealthy pay far less than their legal obligation) and that you are not talking about 'purcase taxes and fuel duties' regressive taxes we all pay, taxes which constitute the major tax income of the Thai government and which, in terms of ability to pay are disproportionately levied on the poor.

And if that doesn't give you cause to consider the stupidity of your argument perhaps the lady that cleans our office can - she probably doesn't pay income tax but she has a son who's serving in the Army down south, I doubt he pays income tax - he might never pay income tax.

But are you seriously saying these people are not contributing citizens and ought to be denied their right to vote?

I can see a good argument for an IQ test as a prerequisite to being given a vote - If only on the grounds that it might filter out people who would deny others the vote for being poor.

[brit1984]

People often talk about the injustice of the income and wealth gap between rich and poor in Thailand... I would be more worried about the injustice that only 2 million pay tax (yet all the free-riders get a vote)

I take it you are referring to 'income tax', a progressive tax that many do not pay (indeed many extremely wealthy pay far less than their legal obligation) and that you are not talking about 'purcase taxes and fuel duties' regressive taxes we all pay, taxes which constitute the major tax income of the Thai government and which, in terms of ability to pay are disproportionately levied on the poor.

And if that doesn't give you cause to consider the stupidity of your argument perhaps the lady that cleans our office can - she probably doesn't pay income tax but she has a son who's serving in the Army down south, I doubt he pays income tax - he might never pay income tax.

But are you seriously saying these people are not contributing citizens and ought to be denied their right to vote?

I can see a good argument for an IQ test as a prerequisite to being given a vote - If only on the grounds that it might filter out people who would deny others the vote for being poor.

Your point is well understood and I was wrong to add the point (in brackets and in jest) about voting rights... my point is only 2 million people paying income tax is ridiculous... and yet the poor are already developing the Western trait of entitlement

[GuestHouse]

Perhaps you can give us some examples of this Entitlement you see apearing here in Thailand?

[brit1984]

Perhaps you can give us some examples of this Entitlement you see apearing here in Thailand?

The democratic election of a government based on its Robin Hood economic policies should be enough evidence to support my hypothesis...

[maxme]

The only thing that matters in class differentiation is the amount of wealth you can retain and live on. It doesn't actually matter how you earned it. If some woman is able to provide a middle class lifestyle from spreading her legs then she earned it even if it is through a rather ignoble occupation. A person who barely survives payday to payday all tapped out at the end from vast expenditures or similarly in debt from their lifestyle isn't really middle class.

You've just wiped out the majority of middle class of the world.

The majority of low middle class.

So you think the middle middle class and the upper middle class around the world pay cash for their cars and houses??

I think that even within the middle class there are stages and to be honest we just compare Thailand with the US and the UK which I find well... incomparable.

In layman's terms... You can connect certain dots of comparison between the US and Thailand since both enjoy capitalism. And by that there will always be huge gaps between the the rich and the poor but the UK and northern Europe don't go by the same principals.

Take Scandinavia for instance where they have social liberalism and their foundations were built on a different set of principles and norms where the worker is more cherished than in the US for example. So you can maybe draw lines between Thaialnd and the US but it is still not comparable since Thailand is in Asia where the thinking differences totally from countries in the west and you can certainly not compare classes between to countries or even between western countries. Every country has their own standard.

[astral]

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness.

Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.

--Dickens

It was shillings not pounds.................

Mr Micawber in David Copperfield

[GuestHouse]

Perhaps you can give us some examples of this Entitlement you see apearing here in Thailand?

The democratic election of a government based on its Robin Hood economic policies should be enough evidence to support my hypothesis...

Well no, that would be an example of popularist policies being used to gain power, not of the poor developing 'entitlement'.

I don't feel entitled to free money, but if you offer it I'll gladly accept. I might become entitled if you keep offering it, but there's the rub.

The popularist pledges have not been delivered.

Meanwhile, those who really do feel entitled to help themselves to the nation's wealth are doing just that - increasingly without even a semblance of ligitimacy to back their thieving actions.

This has not gone amiss on Thailand's socially and politically active middle class - on both sides of the colour divide.

[brit1984]

Perhaps you can give us some examples of this Entitlement you see apearing here in Thailand?

The democratic election of a government based on its Robin Hood economic policies should be enough evidence to support my hypothesis...

Well no, that would be an example of popularist policies being used to gain power, not of the poor developing 'entitlement'.

I don't feel entitled to free money, but if you offer it I'll gladly accept. I might become entitled if you keep offering it, but there's the rub.

The popularist pledges have not been delivered.

Meanwhile, those who really do feel entitled to help themselves to the nation's wealth are doing just that - increasingly without even a semblance of ligitimacy to back their thieving actions.

This has not gone amiss on Thailand's socially and politically active middle class - on both sides of the colour divide.

I agree with much of what you say but I still think there must be some sense of entitlement whenever a left-wing government is elected...

Voters can choose either:

The right-wing way, which is to embrace the future with small-government, low-tax and economic growth through hard work (and productivity gains)

or

The left-wing way, which is to ignore the future and share the money in whichever way maximises the chance of re-election (in Thailand's case this money was collected from the less than 3% of the population who pay income tax)

The Thai people voted for the latter; I would say it is due to a sense of entitlement but you may be right that they were just fooled by populist policies and didn't really give it much thought beyond that...

[farang000999]

Your having a laugh right.

The US is arguably the worlds greatest subsidy, government handout, protectionist economy on the planet. Take a look at subsidies to farmers oh and the US stake in the automotive business.

In absolutely no position to lecture anyone about free trade - but don't let that stop them!

No this is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that Western nations have massive debts. Now many of the politicians on the left in these countries are saying that this problem can be solved by increasing taxation on the rich. This is a lie. It is especially a lie in the USA. Obama has made and will make a huge talking point over taking back the Bush tax cuts for the highest income bracket and the Buffet tax which will raise taxes on the rich. This is a drop in the bucket and amounts to less than a 10% reduction in deficit.

[GuestHouse]

Your having a laugh right.

The US is arguably the worlds greatest subsidy, government handout, protectionist economy on the planet. Take a look at subsidies to farmers oh and the US stake in the automotive business.

In absolutely no position to lecture anyone about free trade - but don't let that stop them!

No this is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that Western nations have massive debts. Now many of the politicians on the left in these countries are saying that this problem can be solved by increasing taxation on the rich. This is a lie. It is especially a lie in the USA. Obama has made and will make a huge talking point over taking back the Bush tax cuts for the highest income bracket and the Buffet tax which will raise taxes on the rich. This is a drop in the bucket and amounts to less than a 10% reduction in deficit.

Warren Buffet disagrees with you.

Edited May 8, 2012 by GuestHouse

[farang000999]

There isn't anything to debate Guesthouse. We know how taking away the Bush tax cuts for the highest bracket and enacting the Buffet Rule will effect revenue. To figure this out all they have to do is take everyone's tax returns and adjust them. This can be done with computers and is not debatable. The CBO has already published it's numbers.

Also, it is pretty hilarious that people think capital gains should be taxed higher when capital gains in no shape or form account for inflation.

I buy a stock for $100,000. In 10 years it is $200,000 but oil and everything else has doubled in price. All I have done is kept up with inflation. Now when I sell I should pay 15% on my "Gains" of $100,000? And now many are suggesting that the 15% is not fair. It should be as high as 35% again with absolutely no concern over inflation.

The US gov is borrowing 40% of what it spends.

Also, hilarious that the new French clown wants to tax income over 1m Euros at 75%. That should be a great incentive for private business. Is it any surprise the balance of power is shifting to Asia? We want to work and keep what we earn not be slaves to the government.

Edited May 8, 2012 by farang000999