I'm Back In The Closet

[DUMPSTER]

I’ve never had to hide my sexuality ever since I got my first boyfriend back when I was 23. Now in all those 16 years most people thought I was straight anyway and only gay guys new the truth. Anyway now I find myself in a job, where I feel I have to hide my sexuality, and live in a town with my boyfriend and do the same there. Whenever we go out I always walk in front of him, just in case a student or ex student sees us both together or I just refuse to go out. They would almost certainly put 2 and 2 together and come up with gay. I’ve always been the subject of gossip at school and most think I’m gay no matter what I say. I’ve actually made silly voices in class for a joke, no different to a comedian in the UK, and I’ve heard some of the students whisper “gay”. Their understanding of English culture and what is considered gay is quite laughable really.

So I’ve run back into the closet and closed the door behind me and now I hate living my life in this way. I just want to walk to a restaurant with my b/f have a nice dinner and take a leisurely stroll back to our house but to keep up an image and protect our business and value as a teacher, I feel, I have to hide my life. Luckily my b/f is very understanding and doesn’t mind being out or closeted.

Am I taking a risk with my potential Thai customers and employers by revealing my relationship?

[The_Moog]

I’ve actually made silly voices in class for a joke, no different to a comedian in the UK, and I’ve heard some of the students whisper “gay”. Their understanding of English culture and what is considered gay is quite laughable really.

Like Danny La Rue singing 'On Mother Kelly's doorstep' ?

Why don't you simply try some more macho voices. Les Dennis, Jeremy Paxman, Peter Mandelson or Michael Barrymore spring to mind.

This would deflect those with suspicious inclinations.

[britmaveric]

Hmmm why do you care what anyone thinks - can't honestly be the first gay teacher?

[PeaceBlondie]

I've never been completely out of the closet, even in Thailand. My boyfriend (or my extracurricular activities when he wasn't my boyfriend) were of no business to the gossips in the next province, where I worked.

Yet, when that b/f and I were walking hand in hand up to the cinema in Chiang Mai, there was one of last year's M1 students, saying hello. No big deal. But when I pitched my voice to falsetto only to imitate a female response, in class, I never heard them say "gay" or "katoey." It's easier to be mostly out of the closet in Thailand, than it was back home.

I'm sure that most schools have obvious katoeys on their staff. I heard of one in rural Roi-Et, a gay Thai older teacher, who goes out in public, dressed in women's clothes and makeup when he's not on campus!

I can't know your situation, but I would think that if the teachers already suspect you're gay, you can simply refer to your 'room-mate.' I had one 16 year old katoey student refer to my room-mate as 'your partner,' and I corrected him because that could mean sex partner in English. In fact, that room-mate was my sex partner then, but I never admitted it, even when that same student asked me on his deathbed.

You don't have to tell everybody, and you don't have to keep it a secret from everybody, either. Not all the straight Thai teachers are really married to their sex partner(s), either!

Just my opinion, based on very limited experience.

Dumpster, I'm enjoying these new threads you've started.

Edited December 28, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[The_Moog]

Unfortunately, doing an impersonation of a British celebrity in class is going to sound a bit camp. Its justa thing we Brits have to get used to.

eg

Kenneth Williams "Oooh, matron"

Frank Spencer "Mmm Betty, the cat's done a whoopsie"

Dick Emery "You are awful....but I like you"

Julian Clary "I've just been fisting Norman Lamont"

That last comment - at an awards dinner, got Julian Clary into a lot of trouble.

I used to work with Norman Lamont for awhile at Rothschilds in the early 90s. Charming fellow actually, ooh we did have a giggle together.

[Guest endure]

Blimey - here we go again - Holding hands with a person of the same gender in Thailand does NOT imply anything more than friendship.

[DUMPSTER]

Moog you are implying I was making voices of gay celebrities which I was not.

britmaveric asks why do I care? well because there may be financial repercussions if I came out.

Endure wrote Blimey - here we go again - Holding hands with a person of the same gender in Thailand does NOT imply anything more than friendship.

It does if it is Thai and farang. Anyhow I don't want or need to hold my b/f's hand just to walk by his side is enough for me

Edited December 28, 2005 by DUMPSTER

[britmaveric]

Moog you are implying I was making voices of gay celebrities which I was not.

britmaveric asks why do I care? well  because there may be financial repercussions if I came out

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok faire enough, however from the info provided it seems the children know, the administration knows. If everyone is talking about you and your gayness it seems like common knowledge so to speak, so if it hasnt affected you in your pocket yet I dare say its not going to change if you do your own thing.

[The_Moog]

Moog you are implying I was making voices of gay celebrities which I was not.

Well, ha, which ones are you doing ?

I mean, perhaps you're just not a very skilled linguist when it comes to mimicry.

maybe you're doing Vinnie Jones, yet if you have a reedy squeak, it comes out sounding like David Beckham.

There's that American Actor, Harvey something. He was in Torch Song Trilogy. He has a voice which is both macho and not. A wonderful bass voice. Can you do him?

[DUMPSTER]

I can do many voices and accents. Though one of my half Thai / farang students did point out to her classmates that her English dad did similar voices and that it's just British humor and nothing to do with being gay.

[Totster]

. If everyone is talking about you and your gayness....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That made me laugh... gayness...

totster

[The_Moog]

'Harvey Fierstein'

[dukkha]

Just being a pedant, and no offence, check the spelling of Harvey's family name...we all like our names spelt correctly I imagine

[LindsayBKK]

Your not alone in regards to bf eating out trouble. I have a Thai bf who is an Orthodontist and a lecturer at a local Uni so we never go out to dinner locally worried he will bump into students or other staff. We always drive out of town just to eat. I get a bit frustrated sometimes but being Gay in Thailand is still a bit difficult. But I guess it depends on the job you have, I am the housewife so it's easier for me to be open. Give it time, it's changing ever so slowly. I wouldn't like to know the suicide rate for young Thai gay.

[orchis]

Just being a pedant, and no offence, check the spelling of Harvey's family name...we all like our names spelt correctly I imagine

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's correctly spelled as 'Harvey Fierstein', so what's the pedantic point?

Edited December 29, 2005 by orchis

[DUMPSTER]

It is the correct spelling. Here's one of his famous quotes:

The great thing about suicide is that it's not one of those things you have to do now or you lose your chance. I mean, you can always do it later.

The first time I saw Torch Song I cried and thought it was the best movie ever made. Oh I was a sensitive child

[Guest endure]

Endure wrote Blimey - here we go again - Holding hands with a person of the same gender in Thailand does NOT imply anything more than friendship.

It does if it is Thai and farang. Anyhow I don't want or need to hold my b/f's hand just to walk by his side is enough for me

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must tell the bf's Dad and his brothers that we're supposed to be having sex then. They all hold my hand at one time or another.

[DUMPSTER]

Really endure. I think that‘s very exceptional and must make you feel very much part of the family. If my b/f's dad held my hand I’d feel very uncomfortable.

[orchis]

Really endure. I think that‘s very exceptional and must make you feel very much part of the family. If my b/f's dad held my hand I’d feel very uncomfortable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really Dumpster, that's not so exceptional.

Don't discount other people's experiences if

they're different from yours.

[Guest endure]

Really endure. I think that‘s very exceptional and must make you feel very much part of the family. If my b/f's dad held my hand I’d feel very uncomfortable.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really Dumpster, that's not so exceptional.

Don't discount other people's experiences if

they're different from yours.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must admit that that's the really big problem I have with Dumpster. I find many of his posts interesting and informative but he seems unable to accept the fact that even though something hasn't happened to him it may have happened to others. As an aside not only does the bf's family (not the females of course - taboo!) hold my hand on occasion but straight Thai friends in the UK do too. Perhaps I'm just Mister Nice Guy

[DUMPSTER]

Well endure it might also be the fact that in 4 years of living in Thailand i've actually never seen a farang hold that hand of a Thai guy except the odd times when it's been b/f's. That's why IMHO i thought it was exceptional. I'm not discounting or not accepting others points of view all i'm saying is that i've never seen it so for me it is exceptional. Now you have informed me differently then I accept that it's quite the norm. I just wonder why I haven't seen such behavior. Maybe it depends on where you live or who you mix with but the Thais I know, which are many, never hold hands. So maybe it's simple, your are mister nice guy!

[toptuan]

At school, every time a certain 30 yr. old good-looking Thai professor stops to talk with me (a couple times a month), he holds my hand for the entire tme. It may last up to five or ten minutes. He's married with kids. I nervously look around at passing students and teachers, and no one notices nor gives a hoot. Then I relax. (Of course, he's just being friendly and warm--meanwhile I'm getting horny.)

It's taken me three years to get it through my head that the Thai are much less paranoid than I am about "gender" and the gay "stigma" isn't near the intensity as in western countries.

Because I don't think a farang teacher in Thailand should flaunt his/her sexuality, I'm basically closeted. I refer to my b/f as a "renter" or "house-mate" (never a partner), but we eat together every night, in public, openly. I'm sure more perceptive acquaintances put two and two together and come up with "four" about us. But it's not a big deal--with students, faculty, or administration.

My guess, is that even if your students whispered "gay" to each other in view of your classroom antics, it was in a good-natured spirit and not with the vitriolic-gossipy attitude that might have been evidenced in a western classroom.

After I've seen the antics of khatoey faculty members, I've got a long way to go before creating any kind of scandal--and outdoing them.

IMHO, relax.

Edited December 30, 2005 by toptuan

[Scott]

Dumpster, I think you may be making more out of this than you need to. If being gay is likely to cause you unnecessary problems, then feel free to be in the closet. Your sexuality and sex life is nobodies business.

I run into a similar problem and I try to use as much discretion as I can. When people make remarks or ask questions--I simply don't respond. These are people who are not good "friends", they are aquaintences.

Do what is best for you.

[bina]

two commetns;

one... my friend just came back from two month holiday with wife and kids (he's issaan thai, small small muu baan)... his daughter's teacher is a katoey: eats with the women teachers, does all the women teacher things, dresses as a man at school, at home dresses as a woman... an excellent teacher (for up country thai poor school) from what friend says;

two.... he says his small (4 yr old ) son, is 'katoey'.... how does he know? he says 'just know'.... no problems with it, and his daughter (8) acts like a boy she refuses to wear dresses, climbs trees is a 'tomboy' , doesnt cry when hit, beats up brother, etc, ; the boy takes care of baby animals, plays with the girls in school, cries easily etc.... i said that is normal for kids to be different, he says,no, the boy's heart is like a woman, the girl's heart is that of a man...

just doesnt worry him too much...

also, thai guys hold hands all the time from what i see; give kisses on cheecks (this for the other thread just dont have patience to move threads), thai just dont seem to obsess about the same things as us... except for jealousy between lovers of course then they are dont right obsessive...

[DUMPSTER]

My real concern for hiding my relationship is financial. Having a business means I need customers and there is no doubt that I have attracted many students purely on my looks and personality. I’ve had numerous girls join my classes and have tried so hard to flirt with me. Girls and gay guys are the ones who take learning English the most seriously. I would say 80% of my students are girls, 17% gay guys and 3% straight. The look is very important to Thais, and no matter how shallow it maybe, I have used it to my advantage to get students through the door. I have no doubt that this has also helped me a great deal at the private school where I also teach.

I agree with the advice given by scott and toptuan. I try to ignore most of the gossip though I did take exception to one Thai teacher who had obviously told the parents of an 8 year old that I was gay. One Saturday she came to class and mentioned the school where I teach and she asked my Thai assistant if I was gay because khun so and so said I was. I felt so angry and upset that this female teacher would say such a thing to the parents. I went to school on Monday and complained to the admin. On questioning the teacher she, of course, denied everything. Although nothing was done I did feel better and at least this Thai teacher and others knew I had complained about her.

So I know I have a choice, as we all do, to remain closeted, discreet or open. I’m sure my situation will change in time as the business grows stronger and students join classes because of my teaching abilities or other factors other than looks. I can see this happening now so hopefully it won’t be too long before I can walk to a restaurant with my b/f by my side, sit and enjoy a meal, and all without worrying who’s in there or who’s going to walk in.

[haha]

My real concern for hiding my relationship is financial. Having a business means I need customers and there is no doubt that I have attracted many students purely on my looks and personality. I’ve had numerous girls join my classes and have tried so hard to flirt with me. Girls and gay guys are the ones who take learning English the most seriously. I would say 80% of my students are girls, 17% gay guys and 3% straight. The look is very important to Thais, and no matter how shallow it maybe, I have used it to my advantage to get students through the door. I have no doubt that this has also helped me a great deal at the private school where I also teach.

I agree with the advice given by scott and toptuan. I try to ignore most of the gossip though I did take exception to one Thai teacher who had obviously told the parents of an 8 year old that I was gay. One Saturday she came to class and mentioned the school where I teach and she asked my Thai assistant if I was gay because khun so and so said I was. I felt so angry and upset that this female teacher would say such a thing to the parents. I went to school on Monday and complained to the admin. On questioning the teacher she, of course, denied everything. Although nothing was done I did feel better and at least this Thai teacher and others knew I had complained about her.

So I know I have a choice, as we all do, to remain closeted, discreet or open. I’m sure my situation will change in time as the business grows stronger and students join classes because of my teaching abilities or other factors other than looks. I can see this happening now so hopefully it won’t be too long before I can walk to a restaurant with my b/f by my side, sit and enjoy a meal, and all without worrying who’s in there or who’s going to walk in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

if you can afford it, you should consider living in san francisco. being gay or bi there is no big deal. I lived there for about 20 years, and being gay or bi is no different from being asian or white. it is mostly accepted.

personally, I'm straight, but many of my friends in san francisco are gay, or bi.

we all meet on www.tribe.net.

a story...

one of my best friends is bi. when I first met him, I was sort of wary of him. originally from the state of oregon, I never met people who were non-straight. this guy helped me get many job contracts. not because he was attracted to me, but because he was just a nice person at heart.

anyway, his girlfriend is bi too. makes for an interesting relationship. he is into the swinging crowd in california.

his girlfriend came down with cancer a few years ago. and instead of pining about it, my buddy lined up guys so suzie could be fully occupied with getting orgasms during what they thought would be her last year on this planet.

I know it may sound sort of weird. but I never seen so much love in a relationship in my whole life.

thank buddha. suzie survived her bout with cancer and is still alive and kicking.

yeah. I think you would love san francisco. but then what do I know? everybody is different. you need to find out things for yourself.

happy memories....

[DUMPSTER]

Having been to San Francisco I know exactly what your talking about with regards to being accepted. Luckily for me I didn't leave my heart there and it's here in Thailand where I see my future, and where my heart is, at this time. Most people, I think, are accepted here but in business I think it's best for me to be discreet.

[toptuan]

Having been to San Francisco I know exactly what your talking about with regards to being accepted. Luckily for me I didn't leave my heart there and it's here in Thailand where I see my future, and where my heart is, at this time. Most people, I think, are accepted here but in business I think it's best for me to be discreet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe the Thai appreciate discreetness as well. I also believe that proving your abilities as a teacher over time will overshadow any gossip about your personal life. I observed a Khatoey teacher in a college who was pretty brash in his mannerisms. However, he was highly respected for his teaching ability, and that's what carried the weight.

[ProThaiExpat]

As someone who worked hard at staying in the closet for my entire professional life, in the belief that it would affect my earning capacity, I would now say, in hindsight, that it was a very negative and unproductive effort. Even when joining a new firm, it usually was after a year or so that the gay jokes stopped, usually a clear indication that my closet door was not as secure and I thought.

I do believe that if people get to know you first as a person and then as a gay, it goes much better that if you are identified as gay up front before they get to know you.

Toptuan could not be more right in his posts on this issue, in my opinion. He really says it "spot on".

Years later, when encountering people who knew me during my "closet years", I learned they were not fooled long.

My experience has taught me that if you are respected in your life, profession or manner, whether your gay or not, is of little consequence, unless your in the heart of the bible belt in the U.S., some Arab countries, etc. Certainly in Thailand, as Toptuan points out, the way you do your job is the key. Teachers are in such short supply here, I doubt that even the most flagrant gay would have any difficulty finding meaningful work.

While I think Dumpster is right in projecting a neutral sexual image in his demeanor, if he is "selling himself" as an independent contractor type teacher, always "hustling" to get new students, what he does in his non-professional life will have little affect on his livlihood. That was my professional experience, even though I tried mightily to hide my gay self, much to my personal harm.

I am reminded of advice given to me by my ex-wife (female) when I was going for my first job interview out of professional school. When she questioned why I had dressed so conservatively and I advised that was the type of firm I was interviewing with, she said "What if they hire you, are you going to dress and act your whole life in a "role" that is not you?" I wish I had taken that advice regarding my gay life, until I came out of the closet.

Please be yourself, Dumpster, you will never regret it in hindsight. To live otherwise, is to live in self-imposed shackles based on your own "projection" of what you think people might think.

When you really think about it, two men holding hands may occupy mere seconds of a passerby's attention, as most are much too self absorbed to give any more attention to it than that, and to live your life with shackles because of others fleeting thoughts regarding your behaviour seems to me, now that I have come out, to be absurd.

I do, however, believe in minimal public displays of affection, but my heart warms when I see any two people hold hands, regardless of gender, although I don't do it comfortably myself, due to my own, self administered, slowly rusting schckles.

Edited January 2, 2006 by ProThaiExpat

[PeaceBlondie]

I spent 3.5 semesters, teaching full time in a province that's almost famous for its high percentge of katoeys. Once the single female Thai teachers realized I wasn't on the make, didn't have a girlfriend or wife, and lived with a male Thai, they probably figured it out, without me dressing as a woman, speaking soprano, or swiveling my hips. And they never asked, and they never spread rumors, etc., because they are ladies with good hearts, nam jai.

If a Thai is spreading rumors, you can reply to the person who passed it on to you, "Persons who spread rumors about sex? Oh, black heart, mai chai nam jai, black heart. I not say Ajarn Tittiporn has sex with ten men last week, I not say!"