เจ้าชู้ Jao Chuuu ...the Playboy

[greenwanderer108]

I have always wondered about the historical context of เจ้าชู้, it's roots, story, etc.

Is it based on some literature character or ...?

I know that one of the closest female counterpart words for a player, etc. is

Nang Kaki นางกากี (unsure about spelling) which I am familiar with the literature/historical story the term comes from.

Now, ชู้ generally refers to cheater/cheating/having an affair, etc. and is used mostly in a negative context since it goes against the accepted norm/reform of monogamy. With the title เจ้า Jao, it kind of adds some apeal, since Jao can be considered a revered title. (Thus not quite an insult if a girl labels a guy with it) Peculiar.

It is almost certainly negative/insulting now if you call a girl Nang Kaki...though however, I don't believe people who have an appreciation for and have actually read the literature would agree that it is such a negative word. (since she herself was the victim of the king's and garuda's desire, lust, and will, etc.

So how about Jao Choo, can anyone explain or point to a reference regarding the historical context, roots..

Cheers,

ขอรับ

[BambinA]

เจ้าชู้ Jao Chuuu = a butterfly person , who never end with 1 lover

you can find 1 guy in the TH story - ขุนช้าง-ขุนแผน Koon Chang Koon Phan

ขุนแผน = the butterfly man who never stop to have lust with girls ..he has missuses

and from this story

นางวันทอง (nang wan thong) = a girl who has 2 guys ..นางวันทอง 2 ใจ (nang wan thong song jai) this also is a character of Jao Chuuu in female

other story is Phra Apai Manee (พระอภัยมณี) his missuses are giant,mermaid,farang..etc

เจ้าค่ะ

Edited December 29, 2005 by BambinA

[greenwanderer108]

Thanks Bambi

I'm quite familliar with all of the characters/stories you offered.

Actually, I was wondering more where the word ชู้ came from. I know what it means and how it is used now.

I enjoy Pra Law พระลอ more than Khun Paen/Chang as the story is much more romantic and realistic...

So the bottom line is we never call players khun paen or nang wan tong, atleast not as much as we would use jao choo and nang Gaki...

So who was the original Choo? He must have been from the north or Northeast in my guess...

[sabaijai]

I don't think the term เจ้าชู้ is necessarily related to Thai literature per se. ชู้ means 'to commit adultery' in this context, and เจ้า means 'owner' or 'master', thus it's near-literal translation is 'master of adultery'. And you're right, there's a connotation of admiration inherent in that. Certainly among most of my Thai male friends, there's an admiration - often grudging at times! - for a man who can seduce many women.

I've heard the same term used often for women, and among women, in Thai society. So I would disagree that Nang Kaki is the closes equivalent, rather she's an example of เจ้าชู้ just like ขุนแผน.

Here's an example from a Thai forum discussion where that is made explicit:

ตัวละครในวรรณคดีที่เจ้าชู้ เช่น ขุนแผน พระอภัยมณี นางกากี นางสีดา นางมณโฑ ฯลฯ แต่สร้างสีสันให้กับวรรณคดีเป็นอย่างมาก แต่ถ้าให้เลือกก็คงเป็นขุนแผนที่เจ้าชู้ที่สุด คุณหล่ะ คิดเช่นไรมาช่วยกันตอบไขข้อข้องใจนี้ดีกว่า..........

from Discussion

Although Thai society in general doesn't admire such a quality among women as much as among men, in some quarters (well, at least some of my circle of friends), Thai women are on equal footing in this regard, that is, women who are เจ้าชู้ - 'masters of adultery' - are admired.

[greenwanderer108]

Good take on it Sabaijai... I guess, I was seeking the deep lingual root. Perhaps the word ชู้ comes from Bali, Sankskrit, or Khmer, and I was thinking that it might have come from some famous prince named ชู้ or something..but it's probably too far back in the lingual tree to know for sure why it became adultery. Then again, the word adultery didn't necesarily come from some Roman nobleman named adultery either (i think )

As far as the discussion, my vote wouldn't go to khun paen for being the most jao choo, as he used his power and influence rather than pure charm, and was shedded more in a negative light leading too much jealousy and problems (which is what it often leads to anyway)

I would say Hanuman or Praapai manee. Though Hanuman is based on the Indian character, I think he (and praapaimanee) have more appeal to the Thai male character as for being a revered เจ้าชู้. What do you think?

[sabaijai]

Good take on it Sabaijai... I guess, I was seeking the deep lingual root. Perhaps the word ชู้ comes from Bali, Sankskrit, or Khmer, and I was thinking that it might have come from some famous prince named ชู้ or something..but it's probably too far back in the lingual tree to know for sure why it became adultery. Then again, the word adultery didn't necesarily come from some Roman nobleman named adultery either (i think )

As far as the discussion, my vote wouldn't go to khun paen for being the most jao choo, as he used his power and influence rather than pure charm, and was shedded more in a negative light leading too much jealousy and problems (which is what it often leads to anyway)

I would say Hanuman or Praapai manee. Though Hanuman is based on the Indian character, I think he (and praapaimanee) have more appeal to the Thai male character as for being a revered เจ้าชู้. What do you think?

I have the feeling that ชู้ is an original Thai word, or Austro-Tai if you will, just my gut take, e.g., it has all the hallmarks of Austro-Tai (one syllable, high tone, long vowel, lower class consonant).

I'd go with Phra Aphaimani as well.

[greenwanderer108]

Here is what I posted on the thread/discussion you gave

from here

ผมว่า

หนุมาน is the original เจ้าชู้

The เจ้าชู้ซึ่งผู้ชายทไทยทุกๆคนเคารพที่สุด เป็นตัวอย่งที่น่าตามที่สุด เพราะเขาไม่ได้หลอกผู้หญิงโดยสัญญาใจเดียวตลอดไป

ยังไงๆก็ใช่แต่เสน่ห์ แล้วสุดทายความเป็นเจ้าชู้ของเขาไมได้ทำให้เขาต้องเสียคน ส่วนความเป็นเจ้าชู้ของคนอืนๆ ทำไห้เกิดมี promblems มากมาย

Happy ending for the monkey player !!!

[BambinA]

why hanuman หนุมาน is the most jao choo??

as i know , methink he has 1 mia name สุพรรณมัจฉา (supannamutcha)

(i might wrong..im not so good in literature/historical story )

[Andrew Mac]

I would say Hanuman or Praapai manee. Though Hanuman is based on the Indian character, I think he (and praapaimanee) have more appeal to the Thai male character as for being a revered เจ้าชู้. What do you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, in Valmiki's famous Sanskrit version of the Ramayana (usually regarded as the standard reference work), Hanuman is completely chaste! Powerful, yes; loyal, yes; morally and ethically sound, yes; absolutely essential to Rama's success, yes ... but never one to chase after women, and certainly nothing at all like the Thai Ramakien portrays him.

Edited December 30, 2005 by Andrew Mac

[greenwanderer108]

why hanuman หนุมาน is the  most jao choo??

as i know , methink he  has  1 mia name สุพรรณมัจฉา (supannamutcha)

(i might wrong..im not so good in literature/historical story )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are three mias I'm aware of...

His first one (that I have read) นางบุษมาลี Nang Busamalee, was the sole resident/gaurdian of the ghost city Mayan มายัน.

While it seems they only did it once on their first and only meet, no doubt was she his mia for the duration...and as I quote

ฝ่ายนางบุษมาลีได้ตกเป็นเมียหนุมานแล้วก็แสนพสมัยไหลหลงยิ่งนัก

...and then it goes on about how she forgets everything around her---problems, shyness, and how she only has hanuman in her thoughts as they make love in the forest or whatever

adapted from รามเกียรติ์ the เปรมเสรี edition page ๒๒๔

The second mia was ofcourse the mermaid chick, สุพรรณมัจฉา as bambina pointed out. I think she was like a daughter or some kin to Tosagan. Anyway, a loyal subject as she was ordered to move all the rocks that Rama's soldiers put in the see as they tried to build the road/bridge across to the island Lanka. So as the storey went Hanuman dived down to investigate why there was no progress, met the mermaid, and bam! She got pregnant and had a son, Machanu มัจฉานุ

The third mia (as I'm aware) was Tosagan's neice, Bengai เบญกาย, as she was sent to fool Rama by changing herself to look like Sida, so Rama would be content and not pursue anymore. Hanuman suspected the fake Sida and busted Bengai, of which Rama spared her life...Hanuman ended up courting her while taking her back to Lanka, as I remember.

She got pregnant and had the son Asuraput อสุรผัด

It's been a while since I read some of the book, but it's fun stuff and I should read some more. Anyhow, the point about Hanuman being the best เจ้าชู้ was because his examples portray quality, not necesarily quanity.

And using Sabaijai's take 'master of adultery' that, I think Hanuman wins as he doesn't use trickery, deciet, and lies. It's his charm that makes him so cunning, and deserving as a 'master' in the field.

ขอรับ

...now that's what i call skill. A few sweet charming words and bam..!

[Richard W]

I have the feeling that ชู้ is an original Thai word, or Austro-Tai if you will, just my gut take, e.g., it has all the hallmarks of Austro-Tai (one syllable, high tone, long vowel, lower class consonant).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Certainly SW Tai (*ǰu:_C - also Shan, Lao and Lue). The relationship with Northern Tai *ju:_C is irregular, and may be an illusion - still waiting for Weera Ostapirat to sort out the Tai-Kadai initials. I suppose there's a possibility of a connection with เย้า 'tease' (Proto-Tai ñau_C according to Li) - the correspondences are riddled with irregularities.

[sabaijai]

I have the feeling that ชู้ is an original Thai word, or Austro-Tai if you will, just my gut take, e.g., it has all the hallmarks of Austro-Tai (one syllable, high tone, long vowel, lower class consonant).

Certainly SW Tai (*ǰu:_C - also Shan, Lao and Lue). The relationship with Northern Tai *ju:_C is irregular, and may be an illusion - still waiting for Weera Ostapirat to sort out the Tai-Kadai initials. I suppose there's a possibility of a connection with เย้า 'tease' (Proto-Tai ñau_C according to Li) - the correspondences are riddled with irregularities.

That's what I thought, even though I hadn't specifically researched the word. Anyway I think it's safe to say it's very basic Tai, no doubt pre-dates written Tai and has no literary antecedent per se.

Greewanderer, funny how Hanuman changes in the Ramakian. There's that famous Ramakian relief panel at Wat Pho that shows Hanuman grasping the bare breast of a young maiden - no idea which character she is however.