Uk Jails Teenager For Possessing Al-Qaeda'S Online Magazine

[Pakboong]

Pakboong is there any chance of an Answer to my post #28 , a straight yes or no will do quite nicely

I am sure you would like for it to be that simple. It however, is not simple at all.

In an earlier post in this thread, you asked a poster for some links to newspapers or something to that effect. What if he thought you wanted links to the banned materials and sent you links to the terrorist stuff? The police knock on your door to arrest you because some bean counter found the documents in your personal stuff. A ridiculous example but such happenings are not rare. We have many locked up in Cuba with less to go on than this silly example and they are not getting out any time soon. This stuff is dangerous and loss of basic rights for a false sense of security is IMO quite short sighted.

I think we should be allowed to read what we want. The crime starts and ends with what we do with such information. There is no right answer. We will all see this differently.

[Colin Yai]

Pakboong is there any chance of an Answer to my post #28 , a straight yes or no will do quite nicely

I am sure you would like for it to be that simple. It however, is not simple at all.

In an earlier post in this thread, you asked a poster for some links to newspapers or something to that effect. What if he thought you wanted links to the banned materials and sent you links to the terrorist stuff? The police knock on your door to arrest you because some bean counter found the documents in your personal stuff. A ridiculous example but such happenings are not rare. We have many locked up in Cuba with less to go on than this silly example and they are not getting out any time soon. This stuff is dangerous and loss of basic rights for a false sense of security is IMO quite short sighted.

I think we should be allowed to read what we want. The crime starts and ends with what we do with such information. There is no right answer. We will all see this differently.

My post was #13 and had sweet FA to do with Censorship or freedom of Information ,I suggest you read what Endure wrote and my answer to it was,and if you notice I had no reply to it !.

[Pakboong]

Pakboong is there any chance of an Answer to my post #28 , a straight yes or no will do quite nicely

I am sure you would like for it to be that simple. It however, is not simple at all.

In an earlier post in this thread, you asked a poster for some links to newspapers or something to that effect. What if he thought you wanted links to the banned materials and sent you links to the terrorist stuff? The police knock on your door to arrest you because some bean counter found the documents in your personal stuff. A ridiculous example but such happenings are not rare. We have many locked up in Cuba with less to go on than this silly example and they are not getting out any time soon. This stuff is dangerous and loss of basic rights for a false sense of security is IMO quite short sighted.

I think we should be allowed to read what we want. The crime starts and ends with what we do with such information. There is no right answer. We will all see this differently.

My post was #13 and had sweet FA to do with Censorship or freedom of Information ,I suggest you read what Endure wrote and my answer to it was,and if you notice I had no reply to it !.

I did notice but not everyone will notice. An innocent bean counter on his first day on the job looking for terrorist information?? Again, there is no right or wrong, only opinion. I grew up with the ideas of George Orwell on "thought crime'; just the way of my orientation. I am sure there are many who would like to have "1984" and "Animal Farm" banned.

[Colin Yai]

So Pakboong ,what You are implying is you are against censorship of any kind either for the public good or safety, so in essence its quite OK for the tens of Thousands of <Snip!> perverts out there to sell ,deal and watch Child pornography and freely advertise it wherever it please,s them?, there just has to be certain standards to be set, among those is to have information freely at hand which could in the wrong hands cause death and destruction to hundreds of Innocent people.

Edited May 14, 2012 by metisdead
Profanity edited out of post, next time post will be deleted.

[Steely Dan]

So Pakboong ,what You are implying is you are against censorship of any kind either for the public good or safety, so in essence its quite OK for the tens of Thousands of <Snip!> perverts out there to sell ,deal and watch Child pornography and freely advertise it wherever it please,s them?, there just has to be certain standards to be set, among those is to have information freely at hand which could in the wrong hands cause death and destruction to hundreds of Innocent people.

Colin, I think you will find the only thing that is consistently censored is the truth if it goes against the narrative we are supposed to believe.

P.S Another case in Rochdale, this time they are looking for fifty! Or indeed the 100 homes evacuated due to a bomb found. In other words this news is a diversion to stop people focusing on far more serious crimes commited by the usual suspects.

[koheesti]

As for the freedom to read whatever you want, I think it's safe to draw the line at publications that instruct how to make bombs and kill people. If it were a magazine full of propaganda and ideas, that's one thing. But promoting and giving know-how to commit mass murder should be stopped.

Of Course Khoheesti any one with a modicum of common sense agree's with the latter part of your post ,the first part is really up for grabs depending on the individual ain't it

Who gets to decide what constitutes a modicum of common sense? I doubt that is remotely doable. We either have the freedom or we don't. I can live with it either way. What I can't live with is politicians appointing themselves as policemen for the written word.

I don't know about anyone else, but me personally, I don't need a politician to tell me that "literature" instructing jihadi-wannabes how to construct bombs for the purpose of blowing up as many people as possible is a "bad thing".

[Colin Yai]

As for the freedom to read whatever you want, I think it's safe to draw the line at publications that instruct how to make bombs and kill people. If it were a magazine full of propaganda and ideas, that's one thing. But promoting and giving know-how to commit mass murder should be stopped.

Of Course Khoheesti any one with a modicum of common sense agree's with the latter part of your post ,the first part is really up for grabs depending on the individual ain't it

Who gets to decide what constitutes a modicum of common sense? I doubt that is remotely doable. We either have the freedom or we don't. I can live with it either way. What I can't live with is politicians appointing themselves as policemen for the written word.

I don't know about anyone else, but me personally, I don't need a politician to tell me that "literature" instructing jihadi-wannabes how to construct bombs for the purpose of blowing up as many people as possible is a "bad thing".

You said it in nutshell Khoeesti ,we all agree with free speech but when it comes to instructing others how to kill and maim for the simple reason they are of a different religion ,then whatever others may think or believe, a line just has to be drawn in the sand.

[GiHadOrange]

If you are not permitted to possess or read a particular document, magazine, whatever... that is censorship. It simply is what it is.

It is in fact, a double edged sword.

Its more then just censorship if possession of a magazine brings you in jail.

Imagine if it had happened in China or Iran ...

[flying]

I don't know about anyone else, but me personally, I don't need a politician to tell me that "literature" instructing jihadi-wannabes how to construct bombs for the purpose of blowing up as many people as possible is a "bad thing".

You said it in nutshell Khoeesti ,we all agree with free speech but when it comes to instructing others how to kill and maim for the simple reason they are of a different religion ,then whatever others may think or believe, a line just has to be drawn in the sand.

Yet if you peruse any Military surplus store in the US there you will find many books written by the US military.

things like books on silencers & how they are constructed + much much more.

I agree with Pakboong....crimes start with actual actions not intellectual thoughts nor curiosity.

If left to someone like the islamophobia nuts we have read here...what is next? Do we also dissect religious scriptures to decide if they are in fact pushing hate? They may be interpreted to be inducing murder?

I do not like some things as much as the next person. Whether it be hate speech or most organized religions with their pompous claims of supeiority Yet I realize it is their right as much as those with opposing views.

It is a slippery slope. I will also say I am constantly amazed by the sheeple who bleat......"Oh I am doing nothing wrong so I have nothing to fear & what ever my government...who I elected...wants me to do I will gladly accept."

This is a sad case of people getting the government they deserve.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Scott
formatting

[endure]

There was a much bigger story in the news this week concerning the conviction of British moslems.

Quite true but one must not dig too deep into the sordid affair as it may well cause offence and be deemed racist extremism and we can't have that can we!!.

If you'd read any of the respectable UK newspapers you'd have seen that the case was very well and factually reported and no concessions were made as to the race or religion of those convicted. I'm not sure how the Mail reported it. Perhaps you can tell us?

Endure is there any chance you can produce a link from one of those "respectable" newspapers as to what actually took place and how the police and prosecution services reacted to it when the problem was at first reported ,thank you in advance and in closing how would you define "respectable " newspapers??? , maybe you could name a few.

If you're willing to stick your hand in your pocket (like I do) you too can buy a subscription to the Times who reported the whole case in all its gory detail. Is the Times respectable enough for you?

[endure]

So, whose word are you going to take about what is "safe" for you to read? The state? What else are you willing to give up for safety? You already have CCTV watching your every step, scanners looking beneath your underwear at airports, and police agencies monitoring your words over the phone and internet, just waiting for you to slip up and say something that can be interpreted as a threat. And now if you read the wrong thing, you go to jail? Western countries are treating their citizens like zoo animals. And I, for one, do not intend to reside in their monkey cage.

I think its sort of funny when people talk about "they" meaning the State as being the enemy. I don't fear the state, I don't break the law, so they can tap my phone or read my emails or whatever. Ultimately I'm paying their salaries with my taxes and I'm paying them to stop terrorists and criminals. I am infact a lot more concerned with a different "they", criminals who (unlike the state) have broken into my house and robbed me and left me with serious injuries, on different occasions. I take the side of law-enforcement including anti-terror and intelligence agencies, because ultimately I am their employer by paying their wages & I remain their employer until I break a law of the land. Criminals are different, they don't care what you write in your emails or talk about on your phone, they will smash your skull in & rob you, rape you etc. for no reason at all.

And whatever you say, those are the two options ; anarchy with mob rule by the strongest criminals, or state law with rule by the police & the intelligence departments.

Like I said before - violent criminals have almost killed me in my own home, and police/MI5 have not done this to me. Its an easy decision which side I will take. Re: Terrorism policing, the law agencies are not Doctor Spock, they can not know who is plotting to blow up trains and buses unless they investigate them & we have to manage without the use of magical psychic powers.

Re; airports they can look under my underwear if they want to, its only a human body.

Up until the age of 21 I was a criminal. The criminal acts that I committed could have put me in gaol for 14 years.

[Colin Yai]

Hey Endure ,so happy that a "respectable" newspaper like the Times agreed with most of the "gutter press" by describing the details as "Gory"

[flying]

Hey Endure ,so happy that a "respectable" newspaper like the Times agreed with most of the "gutter press" by describing the details as "Gory"

You were expecting a bolt of lightning etching it in stone? You seem dissatisfied

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[Colin Yai]

Hey Endure ,so happy that a "respectable" newspaper like the Times agreed with most of the "gutter press" by describing the details as "Gory"

You were expecting a bolt of lightning etching it in stone? You seem dissatisfied

Dissatisfied Flying?, actually I'm over the moon to know that when it comes to reporting cases of this nature "The Times" is no different then any other Newspaper (which I can read for free) Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Steely Dan]

Yet if you peruse any Military surplus store in the US there you will find many books written by the US military.

things like books on silencers & how they are constructed + much much more.

I agree with Pakboong....crimes start with actual actions not intellectual thoughts nor curiosity.

If left to someone like the islamophobia nuts we have read here...what is next? Do we also dissect religious scriptures to decide if they are in fact pushing hate? They may be interpreted to be inducing murder?

I do not like some things as much as the next person. Whether it be hate speech or most organized religions with their pompous claims of supeiority Yet I realize it is their right as much as those with opposing views.

It is a slippery slope. I will also say I am constantly amazed by the sheeple who bleat......"Oh I am doing nothing wrong so I have nothing to fear & what ever my government...who I elected...wants me to do I will gladly accept."

This is a sad case of people getting the government they deserve.

Information once in the public domain will always be so. There is indeed a difficult balance to strike between infringing people's rights to read what they want and people's rights not to be blown to pieces in order to allow others that freedom.

As for dissecting religious scriptures to see if they are pushing hate - Well that is exactly what should be done with no exemptions. Some even get deported after doing precisely this, though the European court of human rights in it's infinite wisdom fights tooth and nail against this.

Indeed the above two examples are linked. As you put it curiousity might be the motive for reading inspire, and circumstance of being born Muslim or piety may make someone read the Koran, including direct exortations to kill infidels. I know it is not ideal but courts have to determine motivation and context.

As an aside an ex-Muslim Pakistani in Spain has petitioned the government to ban the Koran on grounds of it being hate speech. I guess the courts there would have to decide what to do in a similar manner.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Credo]

If AQ wants to register their publication with a country, then they can use the Courts to fight for freedom of speech. They might just have a good case at that point in time.

If they want to publish some on-line magazine that follows no guidelines, then both what they are expressing and their legality is in question.

I can drink alcohol, but making homemade moonshine might just be against the law.

[Colin Yai]

If AQ wants to register their publication with a country, then they can use the Courts to fight for freedom of speech. They might just have a good case at that point in time.

If they want to publish some on-line magazine that follows no guidelines, then both what they are expressing and their legality is in question.

I can drink alcohol, but making homemade moonshine might just be against the law.

You make a very good point Credo.

[flying]

Indeed the above two examples are linked. As you put it curiousity might be the motive for reading inspire, and circumstance of being born Muslim or piety may make someone read the Koran, including direct exortations to kill infidels. I know it is not ideal but courts have to determine motivation and context.

Good example of the slippery slope

Perhaps ban any movies with violence?

After all some tender mind may see Dirty Harry "say make my day" & think it is cool.

Personally I prefer the individual responsibility route.

Otherwise it is just more of the deterioration of Habeas Corpus & worse.

We now will have thought police & you may be arrested for reading/ comprehension

Yet even though your deeds are zero it is enough that you read this or that...saw this or that.

Where does it end?....Slippery indeed this slope.

As to religious interpretation...........Is there any religion that did not at some time

supposedly through interpretation induce killing? Even of their own sons?

Always was & always will be a big problem.

No God ever took pen to paper....Yet men all through time have killed for their

God through the interpretation of a man who did take a pen to paper & pronounce it the word of God.

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[Pakboong]

So Pakboong ,what You are implying is you are against censorship of any kind either for the public good or safety, so in essence its quite OK for the tens of Thousands of <Snip!> perverts out there to sell ,deal and watch Child pornography and freely advertise it wherever it please,s them?, there just has to be certain standards to be set, among those is to have information freely at hand which could in the wrong hands cause death and destruction to hundreds of Innocent people.

All forms of censorship seem to be intended for the public good. And you told me earlier that you are not in favor of censorship. Does that mean you are not in favor of the public good? I understand your point but censorship is a slippery slope and I in general oppose it.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Pakboong

[Colin Yai]

Pakboong , I would suggest you read my post# 37 which I think explains my Opinion.

[OzMick]

Indeed the above two examples are linked. As you put it curiousity might be the motive for reading inspire, and circumstance of being born Muslim or piety may make someone read the Koran, including direct exortations to kill infidels. I know it is not ideal but courts have to determine motivation and context.

Good example of the slippery slope

Perhaps ban any movies with violence?

After all some tender mind may see Dirty Harry "say make my day" & think it is cool.

Personally I prefer the individual responsibility route.

Otherwise it is just more of the deterioration of Habeas Corpus & worse.

We now will have thought police & you may be arrested for reading/ comprehension

Yet even though your deeds are zero it is enough that you read this or that...saw this or that.

Where does it end?....Slippery indeed this slope.

As to religious interpretation...........Is there any religion that did not at some time

supposedly through interpretation induce killing? Even of their own sons?

Always was & always will be a big problem.

No God ever took pen to paper....Yet men all through time have killed for their

God through the interpretation of a man who did take a pen to paper & pronounce it the word of God.

I see Dirty Harry say "Make my day" & think it is cool because i now it is a work of fiction meant to entertain. I also see religious zealots, their brains fried from infancy by indoctrination, walk into a school, church/mosque or airport, say "Allah Akhbar" and blow people to pieces.

Which would I prefer to see banned, violent films or baseless religious dogma - have a guess.

[flying]

I see Dirty Harry say "Make my day" & think it is cool because i now it is a work of fiction meant to entertain. I also see religious zealots, their brains fried from infancy by indoctrination, walk into a school, church/mosque or airport, say "Allah Akhbar" and blow people to pieces.

Which would I prefer to see banned, violent films or baseless religious dogma - have a guess.

islamaphobic by chance?

I guess folks like timothy mcveigh don't count eh?

World is full of dysfunctional nuts in all sizes, shapes,colors,races

Everything he wrote about taking out Lon Horiguchi & his family was freely distributed in the US

Not that I am a fan of Horiguchi by any long shot ( no pun intended )

PS: if your after banning baseless religious dogma I guess your going to have to ban them all then.

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[Colin Yai]

Indeed the above two examples are linked. As you put it curiousity might be the motive for reading inspire, and circumstance of being born Muslim or piety may make someone read the Koran, including direct exortations to kill infidels. I know it is not ideal but courts have to determine motivation and context.

Good example of the slippery slope

Perhaps ban any movies with violence?

After all some tender mind may see Dirty Harry "say make my day" & think it is cool.

Personally I prefer the individual responsibility route.

Otherwise it is just more of the deterioration of Habeas Corpus & worse.

We now will have thought police & you may be arrested for reading/ comprehension

Yet even though your deeds are zero it is enough that you read this or that...saw this or that.

Where does it end?....Slippery indeed this slope.

As to religious interpretation...........Is there any religion that did not at some time

supposedly through interpretation induce killing? Even of their own sons?

Always was & always will be a big problem.

No God ever took pen to paper....Yet men all through time have killed for their

God through the interpretation of a man who did take a pen to paper & pronounce it the word of God.

I see Dirty Harry say "Make my day" & think it is cool because i now it is a work of fiction meant to entertain. I also see religious zealots, their brains fried from infancy by indoctrination, walk into a school, church/mosque or airport, say "Allah Akhbar" and blow people to pieces.

Which would I prefer to see banned, violent films or baseless religious dogma - have a guess.

Obviously Mick what you write is quite correct ,however you now run the risk by writing it as being branded an Islamaphobic by the left, who whilst they pretend to welcome free speech, seek to stifle it when they do not agree by calling others Extremist's ,racists,Nazi's etc etc you name it, in a futile bid to silence them . Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[flying]

you now run the risk by writing it as being branded an Islamaphobic by the left, who whilst they pretend to welcome free speech, seek to stifle it when they do not agree by calling others Extremist's ,racists,Nazi's etc etc you name it, in a futile bid to silence them .

Funny twist by what has to be the loudest of them all

Islamaphobic,Nazi, extremist,zealots

They all have a common thread....They believe their sh!t doesn't stink

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

As for yelling Allah Akbar etc...go google helicopter gunship in Baghdad

& listen to what the gunners say as they mow down cameramen & kids.

All groups have problems it is the zealots that like to claim it is always others.

Much like you do ........

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[Colin Yai]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

[flying]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

What does this position of educating you pay?

Better idea.....ever hear of self service?

Because to be honest your exhausting.

Your M.O. is always the same....

You start off with these blanket generalizations.

Then when called on it you want to pigeonhole it

into a quart sized intellect.

I rather not dance with you

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[koheesti]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

[flying]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

True to some extent although I would say the Catholics are going strong with a perverted form of atrocities.

Then there is the right wing extreme Jews etc.

But I did also say race.....I should have also said governments

But we have strayed & I added to that......So as to the topic....Thought police or no?

Edited May 15, 2012 by flying

[Colin Yai]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

What does this position of educating you pay?

Better idea.....ever hear of self service?

Because to be honest your exhausting.

Your M.O. is always the same....

You start off with these blanket generalizations.

Then when called on it you want to pigeonhole it

into a quart sized intellect.

I rather not dance with you

Thanks for the links , cos you just can't produce one can you ,then you throw your toys out of the cot and make some weak excuse as to why you can't go any further ,quite predictable

[flying]

Thanks for the links , cos you just can't produce one can you ,then you throw your toys out of the cot and make some weak excuse as to why you can't go any further ,quite predictable

What ever floats your boat

The good news is your use of the word 'cot" suggests your not American