Uk Jails Teenager For Possessing Al-Qaeda'S Online Magazine

[Colin Yai]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

True to some extent although I would say the Catholics are going strong with a perverted form of atrocities.

Then there is the right wing extreme Jews etc.

But I did also say race.....I should have also said governments

But we have strayed & I added to that......So as to the topic....Thought police or no?

I did,nt think it would be too long before the trump card of the Jews was played by yourself, however I ain't seen it in the Jewish Scriptures that they want to wipe the Muslims off the face of the Earth ,have you?

[Colin Yai]

Thanks for the links , cos you just can't produce one can you ,then you throw your toys out of the cot and make some weak excuse as to why you can't go any further ,quite predictable

What ever floats your boat

The good news is your use of the word 'cot" suggests your not American

Does that make me any worse if I,m not? Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Yunla]

Up until the age of 21 I was a criminal. The criminal acts that I committed could have put me in gaol for 14 years.

I assume you are making a point about you dealing weed or something and how that made you criminal & etc.etc.

I'm talking about "home invasion" & joyriding and other violent crime. Four guys in hoods and scarves breaking into a house with a middle aged disabled woman living there, fracturing her skull & stealing DVD TV PC jewellry etc.etc. Me spending a month in hospital and being scared to go home. Another occasion, walking home from work, joyriders high on drugs decide to run me over in their high powered stolen saloon car. I was younger then and able to run through a ginnel & escape. I suffered hyperventilation and was later in the evening hospitalised for breathing and heart problems.

If the police intercepted communication plans for home invason, plans for vehicular theft etc. then lives could be saved and people could feel safe in their normal lives. I don't know if you've ever been strangled and beaten on the floor of your own home with nobody there to defend you, but I have and I would back any government plan that reduces violent crime (including terrorism) & prevents other people suffering those type of nightmare situations in future.

Likewise terrorism, I don't give a **** about people's rights to read obscure radical literature and militant rhetoric - I only care about normal working people having the right to a normal safe life & to read things that enrich them intellectually and socially. I am a logical positivist, and I see a future based on logic as the only kind of future, logic from the roots up to the treetops, if it doesn't improve peoples lives it is not logically positive and out it goes.

I'm reading this thread and struck by the "all or nothing" mentality. People are saying in several posts - we can never intercept the important stuff & the people monitoring us are fallible etc.etc. and so lets just forget it and let people build low-yield nuclear briefcase bombs and biological jug bombs & set fire to school buses & whatever. My point is that while our intelligence services are not perfect & the net we are fishing with can never get all the fish, its no reason to leave the ship docked and sit round on the shore twiddling our thumbs. For my part I would burn every single militant radical book / magazine on Earth if it stopped just ONE single child from being killed by militants.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Yunla

[Steely Dan]

Normally I'm against censorship and for freedom of expression, sometimes things do go wrong. Football hooligans for example adopting the ritualised violence from films such as the Clockwork orange, which has been banned at times. I think this goes to show how the situation is fluid and never static, sometimes something causes undesirable effects and censorship may need to be considered depending on the size of the problem. It is fine pinning everything on individual rights and responsibilities, but these themselves are cultural and what may be the code of a gang or scripture of a religion may be used as a convenient excuse for the most extreme behavior. It is not 'islamophobia' to point out that there is indeed a problem of non-assimilation with a section of the Muslim community, allowing materials which are consistent with a foreign culture may have severly detrimental effects on the host culture. I invite you to look at the recent press relating to Pakistani gangs grooming and raping underage girls in the UK. It has been going on for ages and seems peculiar to the Pakistani Muslim community, the question is why? Are they naturally criminal? Does their behavior hide behind a written justification - it is of great importance to honestly answer this question, just as it is the question of whether Inspire pushes a borderline psychopath into action.

http://en.wikipedia....k_Orange_(film)

The British authorities considered the sexual violence extreme, furthermore, there occurred legal claims that the movie A Clockwork Orange had inspired true copycat crimes, as per press cuttings^{[clarification needed][citation needed]} at the British Film Institute. In March 1972, at trial, the prosecutor accusing the fourteen-year-old-boy defendant of the manslaughter of a classmate, referred to A Clockwork Orange, telling the judge that the case had a macabre relevance to the film.^[25] The attacker, a Bletchley boy of sixteen, pleaded guilty after telling police that friends had told him of the film "and the beating up of an old boy like this one"; defence counsel told the trial "the link between this crime and sensational literature, particularly A Clockwork Orange, is established beyond reasonable doubt".

Edited May 15, 2012 by Steely Dan

[Colin Yai]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

Khoeesti, Flying is writing about his personal experiences with the "Spanish inquisition"

[Exsexyman]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

Certainly not all one way traffic. G W Bush was a religious zealot who thought he was on a mission from God to kill Muslims in Iraq. Hardly ancient history. Note how Donald Rumsfeld attached warlike quotations from the old testament on the briefing papers to Bush on the progress of the war.

http://www.alternet.org/news/140221

[Colin Yai]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

Certainly not all one way traffic. G W Bush was a religious zealot who thought he was on a mission from God to kill Muslims in Iraq. Hardly ancient history. Note how Donald Rumsfeld attached warlike quotations from the old testament on the briefing papers to Bush on the progress of the war.

http://www.alternet.org/news/140221

Exsexyman please Read my post again I plainly said Christian Europe .and the war was caused because Hussian Invaded another Islamic Country, Kuwait who GW Bush liberated . Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[koheesti]

But we have strayed & I added to that......So as to the topic....Thought police or no?

As I said, if the printed material is just full of ideas or propaganda then it should be legal. But if comes with how-to instructions for killing/hurting people, and the target audience readership is well-known for trying to do just that, then it should be censored/banned/choose your label.

Question: If magazines should be allowed that detail "how to make bombs and blow up infidels", what about magazines that detail other repulsive things: "How to hang a black man", or "Raping Children and intimidating them to remain silent", or "How to tie a homosexual to your car and drive around without killing him too quickly"?

[koheesti]

G W Bush was a religious zealot who thought he was on a mission from God to kill Muslims in Iraq.

Total bullshit.

[koheesti]

I did,nt think it would be too long before the trump card of the Jews was played by yourself, however I ain't seen it in the Jewish Scriptures that they want to wipe the Muslims off the face of the Earth ,have you?

To be fair, Muslims didn't first appear until many centuries after those scriptures were written.

[Colin Yai]

I did,nt think it would be too long before the trump card of the Jews was played by yourself, however I ain't seen it in the Jewish Scriptures that they want to wipe the Muslims off the face of the Earth ,have you?

To be fair, Muslims didn't first appear until many centuries after those scriptures were written.

Quite true, and all the more reason why it seems rather odd that the Islamic's have such pathological hatred for the Jews.

[GiHadOrange]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

That is an antisemitic statement.

[koheesti]

Yet name a race or religion that has not committed atrocities?

For most religions it is ancient history, which was isolated regionally and is of no threat to anyone anymore. For one religion it is a very real, modern day threat that affects just about everyone the world over.

That is an antisemitic statement.

Not if I'm talking about Scientologists.

[folium]

Exsexyman please Read my post again I plainly said Christian Europe .and the war was caused because Hussian Invaded another Islamic Country, Kuwait who GW Bush liberated .

"Christian" Europe has considerable form when it comes to ill-treatment of muslims which would meet the definition of genocide in several of the examples listed below:

The Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain & Portugal) which saw forced conversions, destruction/desecration of religious buildings, and ultimately the expulsion of all muslims between1609-14. The Kingdom of Sicily also expelled all Muslims in the 13th century.

Russia had an escalating policy of Russification from the 16th to 19th centuries of its southern conquests which saw large-scale resettlements to remote regions, expulsions and various massacres of muslims.

Greece indulged in some bloody "ethnic/religious cleansing" and expulsion in the Chameria region of NW Greece in 1944-45.

The Balkans/SE Europe has seen systematic campaigns of persecution, massacres and expulsion of muslims starting with the Serbian and Greek independence wars in the 1820s & 1830s, then during the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 and then the murderous Balkan War of 1912-1913. More recently the war in Bosnia (1992-95) saw the murder and mass rape of muslims, and massacres such as at Srebrenica. The conflict in Kosovo 1995-96 saw further persecution and bloodshed involving its muslim population.

"Christian" Europe also has a pretty shameful record of its treatment of Jews involving progroms, expulsions, persecution and mass murder obviously culminating in the Shoah. Accused of deicide European Jews have been victims of anti-semitism for centuries in most European nations, including France, the Uk and Italy.

[Steely Dan]

@Folium

Reconquista, that means taking back what was once captured, by force I might add. It is amazing how you can document all the bad behaviour of European Christians whilst studiously avoiding the context by which it came about.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/02/crusades-response-to-islamic-aggression.html

Just to underline your selective approach. The Turks have massacred their Greek population in the past and ethnically cleansed Turkey of all Greeks as recently as 1974. The Turks furthermore commited a genocide on over 1 million Armenians during WWI. Furthermore it has recently come to light that contrary to Kosovo being exclusively a Christian genocide of Muslims there were similar attrocities committed by Muslims against Christians. I can supply links if requested.

A history lesson is all very well, but when you go to such lengths to give a totally skewed view it does your argument no favours.

[folium]

@Folium

Reconquista, that means taking back what was once captured, by force I might add. It is amazing how you can document all the bad behaviour of European Christians whilst studiously avoiding the context by which it came about.

http://gatesofvienna...aggression.html

Just to underline your selective approach. The Turks have massacred their Greek population in the past and ethnically cleansed Turkey of all Greeks as recently as 1974. The Turks furthermore commited a genocide on over 1 million Armenians during WWI. Furthermore it has recently come to light that contrary to Kosovo being exclusively a Christian genocide of Muslims there were similar attrocities committed by Muslims against Christians. I can supply links if requested.

A history lesson is all very well, but when you go to such lengths to give a totally skewed view it does your argument no favours.

Colin wanted examples of "Christian" Europe persecuting muslims, and that's what is detailed above.

I don't suffer from a skewed viewpoint or any agenda, and am quite aware that almost all ethnic/religious groups are capable of crimes against humanity on some scale.

As you highlight having an understanding of historical events helps put present events and attitudes in context.

[Colin Yai]

Folium you remind me of the Original drowning man grasping at straws by delving into the Archives, please read my post #55 again, I plainly wrote "Suffer" which means right now at this moment in time ,and not "Have suffered" which is not the same ,nice try but sorry "no Cigar" what next "Richard the lion heart!!" Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Exsexyman]

Flying ,Any chance of producing a link concerning any Christian Country in Europe were Muslims suffer from persecution, are murdered and their places of worship are burned to the ground , please do not write about modern day religious zealots because its all one way traffic ,looking forward to reading your links

Certainly not all one way traffic. G W Bush was a religious zealot who thought he was on a mission from God to kill Muslims in Iraq. Hardly ancient history. Note how Donald Rumsfeld attached warlike quotations from the old testament on the briefing papers to Bush on the progress of the war.

http://www.alternet.org/news/140221

Exsexyman please Read my post again I plainly said Christian Europe .and the war was caused because Hussian Invaded another Islamic Country, Kuwait who GW Bush liberated .

Are you serious? G W Bush liberated Kuwait? Ha Ha. Oh dear, i think you need to go back to school! And your post clearly stated that modern day religious zealotry was one way traffic. And Koheesti, so you are saying that Chirac was lying, the senior professor of theology at Lausanne University was lying, many journalists from respected publications from The Guardian and Times in the UK to many in France who reported this are all lying? The only one who is all knowing is Koheesti who doesn't believe anything that doesn't conform to his tunnel visioned, bigoted view of things. Sounds a bit like religious zealotry to me!

[Colin Yai]

Ok My mistake it was GW'S Old man who liberated Kuwait, are you saying that Hussein did,nt murder tens of thousands of other Muslims besides the Kuwaitis and would still be doing so today if he had,nt been stopped,and you repeated what I said "modern day religious zealotry was one way traffic" then folium start's delving into the history books to try and prove me wrong ,Get real someone

Edited May 15, 2012 by Colin Yai

[Ulysses G.]

G W Bush liberated Kuwait? Ha Ha. Oh dear, i think you need to go back to school!

George (H)W Bush was president when Kuwait was liberated. Don't be so pendantic.

[SaNim]

Who was it that said those that give up freedoms for security deserve neither?

[folium]

Ok My mistake it was GW'S Old man who liberated Kuwait, are you saying that Hussein did,nt murder tens of thousands of other Muslims besides the Kuwaitis and would still be doing so today if he had,nt been stopped,and you repeated what I said "modern day religious zealotry was one way traffic" then folium start's delving into the history books to try and prove me wrong ,Get real someone

Despite your apparent contempt for historical context (notwithstanding your quoting of Vegetius in a previous post), it would be rash to dismiss historical events and their impact on today's events so swiftly.

The loss of El Andalus or the events in Bosnia and Kosovo resonate with many muslims today, as much as the Shoah and earlier progroms resonate with many Jewish people today. Just because an event happened 15, 60 or 400 hundred years ago it can still be an important element in the culture and mindset of the groups affected at the time and now.

Also just so I am clear you believe that religious zealotry is a trait only found amongst muslims today, is that a fair interpretation?

[Colin Yai]

Ok My mistake it was GW'S Old man who liberated Kuwait, are you saying that Hussein did,nt murder tens of thousands of other Muslims besides the Kuwaitis and would still be doing so today if he had,nt been stopped,and you repeated what I said "modern day religious zealotry was one way traffic" then folium start's delving into the history books to try and prove me wrong ,Get real someone

Despite your apparent contempt for historical context (notwithstanding your quoting of Vegetius in a previous post), it would be rash to dismiss historical events and their impact on today's events so swiftly.

The loss of El Andalus or the events in Bosnia and Kosovo resonate with many muslims today, as much as the Shoah and earlier progroms resonate with many Jewish people today. Just because an event happened 15, 60 or 400 hundred years ago it can still be an important element in the culture and mindset of the groups affected at the time and now.

Also just so I am clear you believe that religious zealotry is a trait only found amongst muslims today, is that a fair interpretation?

Can you please show me anywhere in Europe today were Muslims are being murdered almost weekly ,and their places of worship desecrated ?,is that a fair question?

[Yunla]

I think the whole christian / muslim / jew blame-game is largely meaningless in todays context. If you are a woman in Iran the person most likely to kill you is another muslim, not a christian or a jew. If you are muslim & blown up in Iraq or Afghanistan today, most liikely the bomber was another muslim. Over half a million people, mostly muslim, who died under Saddams actions in Kurdistan & the Iran war, were killed by other muslims. The invasion of iraq removed saddam and like any major military op many civilians died. But the really heavy casualties began after the military mission was completed, when the tribal groups started fighting for control of Iraq, sponsored & armed by neighbouring muslim countries. I personally opposed the invasion even though Saddam was a genocidal maniac, because I feared the post-war mayhem caused by religious divisions within tribal islam.

It is a modern myth that zionists and christian crusaders are murdering and killing their way across the middle east, most of the death is caused by the different subdivisions of Islam fighting each other and by the draconian theocratic justice handed out to women & children & non-believers under sharia.

[koheesti]

Exsexyman please Read my post again I plainly said Christian Europe .and the war was caused because Hussian Invaded another Islamic Country, Kuwait who GW Bush liberated .

"Christian" Europe has considerable form when it comes to ill-treatment of muslims which would meet the definition of genocide in several of the examples listed below:

The Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain & Portugal) which saw forced conversions, destruction/desecration of religious buildings, and ultimately the expulsion of all muslims between1609-14. The Kingdom of Sicily also expelled all Muslims in the 13th century.

Remind me again how all these Muslims got to Spain and Portugal in the first place?

[folium]

Exsexyman please Read my post again I plainly said Christian Europe .and the war was caused because Hussian Invaded another Islamic Country, Kuwait who GW Bush liberated .

"Christian" Europe has considerable form when it comes to ill-treatment of muslims which would meet the definition of genocide in several of the examples listed below:

The Reconquista of the Iberian Peninsula (Spain & Portugal) which saw forced conversions, destruction/desecration of religious buildings, and ultimately the expulsion of all muslims between1609-14. The Kingdom of Sicily also expelled all Muslims in the 13th century.

Remind me again how all these Muslims got to Spain and Portugal in the first place?

Slightly pointless but does illuminate the hybrid nature of nations and "indigenous" people, as Spain was a Roman colony for 400 years, and was then invaded by 2 Germanic tribes (the Visigoths and Vandals) for about 200 years until the muslim occupation (aided by some Visigoths) which lasted at least in SE Spain for over 700 years, and has been a majority Christian country for just over 500 years.

[folium]

Ok My mistake it was GW'S Old man who liberated Kuwait, are you saying that Hussein did,nt murder tens of thousands of other Muslims besides the Kuwaitis and would still be doing so today if he had,nt been stopped,and you repeated what I said "modern day religious zealotry was one way traffic" then folium start's delving into the history books to try and prove me wrong ,Get real someone

Despite your apparent contempt for historical context (notwithstanding your quoting of Vegetius in a previous post), it would be rash to dismiss historical events and their impact on today's events so swiftly.

The loss of El Andalus or the events in Bosnia and Kosovo resonate with many muslims today, as much as the Shoah and earlier progroms resonate with many Jewish people today. Just because an event happened 15, 60 or 400 hundred years ago it can still be an important element in the culture and mindset of the groups affected at the time and now.

Also just so I am clear you believe that religious zealotry is a trait only found amongst muslims today, is that a fair interpretation?

Can you please show me anywhere in Europe today were Muslims are being murdered almost weekly ,and their places of worship desecrated ?,is that a fair question?

Try Russia. Not a nice place if you are muslim, Jewish, Asian or anything apart from Russian, whatever that means. Also the behaviour of the Soviet/Russian military in the majority-muslim republics of Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, N.Ossetia has been as barbaric as that of the insurgents and continues today both directly and via proxies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17679417

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia

http://www.economist.com/node/15407883

Still waiting for an answer on whether or not you consider religious zealotry to be a muslim only pastime.....

Edited May 15, 2012 by folium

[Yunla]

Not wanting to be pedantic , but how much of it was done in the name of religion? Hitler and Stalin don't fit the bill there, they represented two ideologies, Nazism and communism. I only mention it seeing as the OP concerned radical matter closely attached to an Ideology which identifies itself as Islam, even if many Muslims wish it didn't.

To be fair the Nazi soldiers' belt-buckles had the "Gott mit uns" phrase, god is with us, which was also used by the germans in WW1. But that phrase was used in ancient rome and byzantine era too. Hitler was a philosophical magpie, he grasped at anything that would support his ultimate victory. Stalin also went against Soviet teachings which had made atheism almost compulsory, and he revived the Russian Orthodox Church, but many believe he only did this to increase his popularity with the masses.

I dispute the earlier post that said Christianity was behind the holocaust or ww2. Those were political atrocities caused by extreme Nationalism wielded by an uncontrolled psychotic, which is not a religion. Hitler hated the jews because he saw them as subhuman, not because they had a different religion from him.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Yunla

[endure]

But we have strayed & I added to that......So as to the topic....Thought police or no?

As I said, if the printed material is just full of ideas or propaganda then it should be legal. But if comes with how-to instructions for killing/hurting people, and the target audience readership is well-known for trying to do just that, then it should be censored/banned/choose your label.

Question: If magazines should be allowed that detail "how to make bombs and blow up infidels", what about magazines that detail other repulsive things: "How to hang a black man", or "Raping Children and intimidating them to remain silent", or "How to tie a homosexual to your car and drive around without killing him too quickly"?

They're all words on a piece of paper. People should be prosecuted for their actions not what they think.

[folium]

When it comes to the persecution and slaughter of a religious group in modern history, nobody even comes close to the record of White, Christian, Europeans, in the late 1930s to the mid 1940s. Yet Muslims are seen as the bogeymen. How odd!

Not wanting to be pedantic , but how much of it was done in the name of religion? Hitler and Stalin don't fit the bill there, they represented two ideologies, Nazism and communism. I only mention it seeing as the OP concerned radical matter closely attached to an Ideology which identifies itself as Islam, even if many Muslims wish it didn't.

I concede you make a fair point Steely! Squirm, squirm! But would the holocaust have happened if the victims were not Jewish, say Christian? To be really pedantic it could be argued that there may have been a slight religious aspect to it! Couldn't it? (Says he, clutching at straws in a desperate attempt to save a bit of face)!

IMHO it matters not a jot if mass murder is committed in the name of a religion or any other dubious justification. Bottom line is that Europeans have got good form at mass murder, persecution and genocide both home and away, as it is with other groups around the world. Sadly barbarism and inhumanity are not limited geographically or culturally.