Thai Police Arrest Brit With Foetuses For Black Magic

[phiphidon]

With the worship of dead babies, one would think humanity was still in the first century.

Not that far away from worshipping the result of a "virgin" birth, but that's just my opinion. I don't disrespect peoples choice to do so (except for the "religious wars" that result but that's a tangent I don't wish to bring into the discussion)

[gand]

With the worship of dead babies, one would think humanity was still in the first century.

Not that far away from worshipping the result of a "virgin" birth, but that's just my opinion. I don't disrespect peoples choice to do so (except for the "religious wars" that result but that's a tangent I don't wish to bring into the discussion)

Apparently it can happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

[Para]

Similar to the 30k or so fetuses found last year in BKK.

There is a lot that gores on with Thai Amulets that as Westerners we find disturbing at best.

I know a fair amount about these Amulets but for fear of a witch hunt will keep it to PM if anyone is interested.

[canuckamuck]

The thing that gets me is that people here think this is sooooo unusual, when it is really really ingrained in Thai culture. EVERYBODY BELIEVES IN THEM. If it weren't for the fact that the guy was not Thai and taking them out of the country, nothing would have happened to him. I am sure that the gumontongs will find good Thai homes with the police that arrested him.

My wife is Thai and she has been here all her life. Yet she had never heard of this and when I explained it to her, she thought it was disgusting. I am not saying it isn't well known, but you generalize a bit too broadly.

[chooka]

What is it with the Chinese? Just over a week ago there was news story about capsules originating from China containing the powdered flesh of babies.

He is British, not Chinese.

[gand]

What is it with the Chinese? Just over a week ago there was news story about capsules originating from China containing the powdered flesh of babies.

He is British, not Chinese.

Wrong, from the OP. "Chow Hok Kuen, 28, who is of Taiwanese origin"

[TomTao]

That leads me to the obvious question: what are you doing in Thailand/Asia? Learning? Expanding one's horizon?

I came here with my wife when she wanted to come home, everyday in Thailand is a new experience and something new learnt every day.

What are your views on the issue of abortion?

I do not agree with abortion unless the unborn child's life is in danger and it is too early in the pregnancy for an induced birth and there is nothing that can be done medically, or the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy and the above applies.

Why then do you have straight away judge and condone the use of these fetuses? The most important part of learning every day is also accepting without judging that other cultures have different forms of religious worship.

As i have written before - the most valued "Gumarn Thong" are naturally mummified corpses of babies or fetuses. They have have died from natural causes, or were remains of abortions (and not aborted for the purpose of religious worship, if i may add). They are the same as relics in Christian churches, or displayed mummified monks in Bhuddhist temples - just flesh and bones.

These fetuses are worshiped, honored prayed to, ritually given toys, sweets and food, to make the spirit happy that according to the cult's followers inhabits this "gumarn thong".

In museums and laboratories dead babies are displayed in jars.

What now is the more respectful treatment of the remains of dead babies?

Used for some scientific research is better than some superstitious imaginary belief system.

Why then do you have straight away judge and condone the use of these fetuses?

I'm sorry, but I do not recall judging or condoning the use of foetuses, I did state that I find it repulsive, I also stated that I had never heard of the practice before today, the animism that is part of Buddhism has some practices that are unusual to me, that being said, I do not judge anyone for their individual or group beliefs or practices, I may state my opinion, specifically how a certain practice makes me feel, there are other practices from other parts of Asia that I find repulsive, such as the consumption of the brains of a living monkey. So me saying that I find the keeping of foetuses as items of religious importance is repulsive is not judging, but rather just voicing my opinion as an outsider looking in. If I got up on a moral soapbox and started demanding that this practice be stamped out immediately instead of ensuring that I am informed about the reason the use of these foetuses in religious observance so that through being informed I may develop an acceptance of this practice, that would be acting in judgement, and I have noticed that there is one poster on here who has been posting informative posts that are educating me, and I am sure others as well.

As to the use of foetuses for scientific research, if the child was not aborted as a matter of convenience but was either miscarried, or aborted to save the mother's life and something could be learnt that could help prevent the condition that caused the miscarriage or made the abortion necessary, then such reasearch is worthwhile.

edit; spelling

Edited May 19, 2012 by TomTao

[gand]

That leads me to the obvious question: what are you doing in Thailand/Asia? Learning? Expanding one's horizon?

I came here with my wife when she wanted to come home, everyday in Thailand is a new experience and something new learnt every day.

What are your views on the issue of abortion?

I do not agree with abortion unless the unborn child's life is in danger and it is too early in the pregnancy for an induced birth and there is nothing that can be done medically, or the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy and the above applies.

Why then do you have straight away judge and condone the use of these fetuses? The most important part of learning every day is also accepting without judging that other cultures have different forms of religious worship.

As i have written before - the most valued "Gumarn Thong" are naturally mummified corpses of babies or fetuses. They have have died from natural causes, or were remains of abortions (and not aborted for the purpose of religious worship, if i may add). They are the same as relics in Christian churches, or displayed mummified monks in Bhuddhist temples - just flesh and bones.

These fetuses are worshiped, honored prayed to, ritually given toys, sweets and food, to make the spirit happy that according to the cult's followers inhabits this "gumarn thong".

In museums and laboratories dead babies are displayed in jars.

What now is the more respectful treatment of the remains of dead babies?

Used for some scientific research is better than some superstitious imaginary belief system.

Why then do you have straight away judge and condone the use of these fetuses?

I'm sorry, but I do not recall judging or condoning the use of foetuses, I did state that I find it repulsive, I also stated that I had never heard of the practice before today, the animism that is part of Buddhism has some practices that are unusual to me, that being said, I do not judge anyone for their individual or group beliefs or practices, I may state my opinion, specifically how a certain practice makes me feel, there are other practices from other parts of Asia that I find repulsive, such as the consumption of the brains of a living monkey. So me saying that I find the keeping of foetuses as items of religious importance is repulsive is not judging, but rather just voicing my opinion as an outsider looking in. If I got up on a moral soapbox and started demanding that this practice be stamped out immediately instead of ensuring that I am informed about the reason the use of these foetuses in religious observance so that through being informed I may develop an acceptance of this practice, that would be acting in judgement, and I have noticed that there is one poster on here who has been posting informative posts that are educating me, and I am sure others as well.

As to the use of foetuses for scientific research, if the child was not aborted as a matter of convenience but was either miscarried, or aborted to save the mother's life and something could be learnt that could help prevent the condition that caused the miscarriage or made the abortion necessary, then such reasearch is worthwhile.

edit; spelling

Relax, I was replying to nicknostitz, not you.

[Unkomoncents]

I'm in full support of a woman's right to choose how she handles her children and body. What does that have to do with anything? Are you looking for support for such practices. Get the Vatican on the phone and ask them. I could care less what people do in their own time. That isn't going to make it palatable or salient to the world's audience. And please, I want to talk to your average Hindu about eating corpses. I mean the majority of Indians, who live in India or abroad. This is a ridiculous argument. It's like saying: "Well, some people murder other people so shouldn't we accept that it's a part of their culture to murder others." I'm not here for a cultural experiment. This isn't about learning about other cultures. Are you here for learning about other cultures? What are you doing in Asia?

Cool - you are fully supporting infanticide, yet you reject the religious worship of the remains of such abortions.

You seem to have an issue of comprehension. I have not stated that ritual cannibalism and "Aghora" are mainstream Hindu practices, but a practice that is well alive in India (and Nepal).

And yes, that is the point - i came to Asia to learn about and experience other cultures and to expand my horizon. We quite definitely live in different worlds.

No, I am supporting women. You are trying to defend the most ridiculous human behaviors. And the best part: you've been caught. If I used your logic, a whole range of behaviors (foot binding, female genital mutilation, pedophilia) become sources of education for curious westerners. I don't care about deaths here or there. I was commenting on what others (I would love to ask your average Bahraini, Israeli, Ecuadorian, Japanese, or other nationality what they think of this) clearly would see as abhorrent human behavior. You're captain judgemental. Not me. And congratulations on your trip to learn about other cultures. I wish I could be there over the long haul to see the slow disintegration of your idealism.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[Unkomoncents]

I am astonished that under 154 replies to this topic only 2 posters realized that these fetuses were actually so called "Gumarn Thong" - baby spirits caught in a mummified corpse of a baby/foetus, which occur in two versions: naturally mummified, which is the most sought after and rare version, and artificially mummified by slow roasting of the corpse under observation of elaborate religious ceremonies. Similar exists with mummified adults - called "Ajarn Thong". Many temples display also corpses of naturally mummified monks, which is seen in Thailand (and many other Bhuddist countries) as a sign for high spiritual achievement of the monk while he was alive.

Furthermore - many sought after amulets here in Thailand contain ashes or bone fragments of venerated monks, mixed into the plaster. From now on, all the enraged posters here should maybe find out if the amulets they carry around may not contain such.

What many seem to forget here is that also in the west there are still many forms of sacred human remains existing, such as the worship of relics - whole corpses of saints or body parts, often adorned in gold and jewels.

It is utterly embarrassing that the two posters that have taken notice that these fetuses are part of a very well known religious practice here have been completely ignored by the rest for the sake of ignorant expressions of cultural superiority, or to pointlessly argue over issues of racism.

How revealing...

This isn't about cultural superiority. It's about using dead human babies for religious practices. I don't think that any society would condone this, but please, do make this an issue of "racism". I would love to see how the world and especially those who feel disenfranchised would react to their assumed association with such rituals. I would love to see how the Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim and other religions feel about using mummified human fetuses for religious rituals. Thanks for the laugh.

Mummified relics? Well there are lots of them in churches. I think there is supposed to be a relic in every alter of a Catholic church. I know I have one in my pocket that my mother gave me. Then there is Egypt and all the mummies in the museums. Mummified relics are really pretty mainstream. In your list of religions you didn't mention Taoism. Big religion and some pretty strange stuff especially for doctors. Try google Chinese doctors and Taoism. Then of course there are mummified political leaders.

And these human fetuses are just like the ones in museums?!

[chooka]

What is it with the Chinese? Just over a week ago there was news story about capsules originating from China containing the powdered flesh of babies.

He is British, not Chinese.

Wrong, from the OP. "Chow Hok Kuen, 28, who is of Taiwanese origin"

Sorry I misread the headline "Thai Police Arrest Brit With Foetuses For Black Magic"

[Unkomoncents]

To JohnnyBKK: A fetus is an embryonic mammal that is developing (thus, at one time, alive; check a dictionary). If you don't like my choice of words, fair enough, but don't play semantics please. I'm not Catholic. I don't use fetuses for religious purposes, so how am I a hypocrite? Also, ijit is not a word. Cheers to self-righteousness though. You sure do know how ride in on a white horse and correct all the "ijits".

Edited May 19, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[Unkomoncents]

He could have picked up any number of things in Britain.

Most of them treatable with an antibiotic.

This isn't about cultural superiority. It's about using dead human babies for religious practices. I don't think that any society would condone this, but please, do make this an issue of "racism". I would love to see how the world and especially those who feel disenfranchised would react to their assumed association with such rituals. I would love to see how the Shinto, Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Muslim and other religions feel about using mummified human fetuses for religious rituals. Thanks for the laugh.

Of course, in the west we treat dead babies with the respect they're due ... in formaldehyde on display in a museum. In this case the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia. But virtually every museum in the west puts dead (especially non-white) babies on display for entertainment ... I mean education.

Ah, this feels so tired but: are you trying to compare what one country's museums, in one country, have done in the name of science to the use of human fetuses for religious rituals? I just want to be clear. How do you feel about Nanking and the dissection of Chinese babies for analysis by Japanese scientists? I'm sure that the Philadelphia Museum of Natural History was just as kind, fair and pleasant about the whole process. By the way, I never, EVER, condoned "Western" practices. I was making comments about the use of dead, embryonic humans for religious rituals.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[nicknostitz]

I'm in full support of a woman's right to choose how she handles her children and body. What does that have to do with anything? Are you looking for support for such practices. Get the Vatican on the phone and ask them. I could care less what people do in their own time. That isn't going to make it palatable or salient to the world's audience. And please, I want to talk to your average Hindu about eating corpses. I mean the majority of Indians, who live in India or abroad. This is a ridiculous argument. It's like saying: "Well, some people murder other people so shouldn't we accept that it's a part of their culture to murder others." I'm not here for a cultural experiment. This isn't about learning about other cultures. Are you here for learning about other cultures? What are you doing in Asia?

Cool - you are fully supporting infanticide, yet you reject the religious worship of the remains of such abortions.

You seem to have an issue of comprehension. I have not stated that ritual cannibalism and "Aghora" are mainstream Hindu practices, but a practice that is well alive in India (and Nepal).

And yes, that is the point - i came to Asia to learn about and experience other cultures and to expand my horizon. We quite definitely live in different worlds.

No, I am supporting women. You are trying to defend the most ridiculous human behaviors. And the best part: you've been caught. If I used your logic, a whole range of behaviors (foot binding, female genital mutilation, pedophilia) become sources of education for curious westerners. I don't care about deaths here or there. I was commenting on what others (I would love to ask your average Bahraini, Israeli, Ecuadorian, Japanese, or other nationality what they think of this) clearly would see as abhorrent human behavior. You're captain judgemental. Not me. And congratulations on your trip to learn about other cultures. I wish I could be there over the long haul to see the slow disintegration of your idealism.

Yes, very good - "long haul"...

So far almost a quarter century living and working in Asia hasn't managed to "disintegrate my idealism", or stopped me from being any less curious than when i started off here.

As to the range of behaviors you described - of course it is an easy position to take to just straight away condone this without analyzing these often quite complex issues a bit more in depth. So, yes, based on my own background i do abhor practices that oppress and victimize people. Yet on the other hand there is a very fine line here as well, not to fall into the danger of extrapolating your own cultural values on other cultures. In this case one just becomes another evangelical missionary.

This is especially important if you look at indigenous populations. What do you do there?

There is now a quite common understanding that the last aboriginal peoples need to be protected (if these peoples chose so), and be left to their own destiny. Yet many of these cultures do practice things that are so beyond any modern behavior that this need for protection of their cultures is very difficult to combine with our modern humanistic ideals. Here, for example, is a link from the Humboldt-University of Berlin (in English language) that is rather interesting, and on some level very disturbing: http://www2.hu-berli...ewguinea.html#6

The issue of the fetuses are quite tame compared to many other human religious behaviors and practices current and past. "Gumarn Thong" may be a bit distasteful for some, but i do not see anyone being victimized there, as in the behaviors you mentioned. A big fashion in Europe is now "veganism". These vegans find anyone who eats or wears animal products about as distasteful as you find this practise of fetuses. I don't care - i will still eat meat, and even though i won't put a real Gumarn Thong into my home, i have no issue with people that do.

It is all relative in the end.

Edited May 19, 2012 by nicknostitz

[bendejo]

,,,

What now is the more respectful treatment of the remains of dead babies?

Ask this question at the bar-b-q

Did Fox News pick up this story yet? Just wait till they set the flying monkeys loose on this one!

[Para]

Ask this question at the bar-b-q

Without understanding how do you think you will even begin to understand what is going on here?

There have been some very accurate posts about Gumarn Thong also called KMT in Malaysia and Singapore. The most famous Monk who made Khun Paen using remains of fetuses was L.P. Tim in Rayong. One of his original Amulets can fetch many hundred of thousands.

Before I get flamed I am an ordained Monk here in Thailand.....

Phra Para

[bendejo]

...

(The auntie with three--all the other homes in her neighborhood were broken into--except hers.)

...

Could it be that it was the common knowledge in the neighborhood that your aunt had these, and many people (like the thieves) were scared of going into her house?

[Unkomoncents]

I'm in full support of a woman's right to choose how she handles her children and body. What does that have to do with anything? Are you looking for support for such practices. Get the Vatican on the phone and ask them. I could care less what people do in their own time. That isn't going to make it palatable or salient to the world's audience. And please, I want to talk to your average Hindu about eating corpses. I mean the majority of Indians, who live in India or abroad. This is a ridiculous argument. It's like saying: "Well, some people murder other people so shouldn't we accept that it's a part of their culture to murder others." I'm not here for a cultural experiment. This isn't about learning about other cultures. Are you here for learning about other cultures? What are you doing in Asia?

Cool - you are fully supporting infanticide, yet you reject the religious worship of the remains of such abortions.

You seem to have an issue of comprehension. I have not stated that ritual cannibalism and "Aghora" are mainstream Hindu practices, but a practice that is well alive in India (and Nepal).

And yes, that is the point - i came to Asia to learn about and experience other cultures and to expand my horizon. We quite definitely live in different worlds.

No, I am supporting women. You are trying to defend the most ridiculous human behaviors. And the best part: you've been caught. If I used your logic, a whole range of behaviors (foot binding, female genital mutilation, pedophilia) become sources of education for curious westerners. I don't care about deaths here or there. I was commenting on what others (I would love to ask your average Bahraini, Israeli, Ecuadorian, Japanese, or other nationality what they think of this) clearly would see as abhorrent human behavior. You're captain judgemental. Not me. And congratulations on your trip to learn about other cultures. I wish I could be there over the long haul to see the slow disintegration of your idealism.

Yes, very good - "long haul"...

So far almost a quarter century living and working in Asia hasn't managed to "disintegrate my idealism", or stopped me from being any less curious than when i started off here.

As to the range of behaviors you described - of course it is an easy position to take to just straight away condone this without analyzing these often quite complex issues a bit more in depth. So, yes, based on my own background i do abhor practices that oppress and victimize people. Yet on the other hand there is a very fine line here as well, not to fall into the danger of extrapolating your own cultural values on other cultures. In this case one just becomes another evangelical missionary.

This is especially important if you look at indigenous populations. What do you do there?

There is now a quite common understanding that the last aboriginal peoples need to be protected (if these peoples chose so), and be left to their own destiny. Yet many of these cultures do practice things that are so beyond any modern behavior that this need for protection of their cultures is very difficult to combine with our modern humanistic ideals. Here, for example, is a link from the Humboldt-University of Berlin (in English language) that is rather interesting, and on some level very disturbing: http://www2.hu-berli...ewguinea.html#6

The issue of the fetuses are quite tame compared to many other human religious behaviors and practices current and past. "Gumarn Thong" may be a bit distasteful for some, but i do not see anyone being victimized there, as in the behaviors you mentioned. A big fashion in Europe is now "veganism". These vegans find anyone who eats or wears animal products about as distasteful as you find this practise of fetuses. I don't care - i will still eat meat, and even though i won't put a real Gumarn Thong into my home, i have no issue with people that do.

It is all relative in the end.

I agree, but we cannot exist in human societies where there is no agreement about morality or truth. I believe, metaphysically, that everything is in fact relative. So on that point, I share your perspective. The problem is that we cannot live that way. If we accept that everything is mere opinion and bias, then the distinction between right and wrong ceases to exist. Human societies are simply large aggregations of especially intelligent animals. In order to live peacefully and safely (as much as possible) together, we must create norms of behavior to negate adverse social activities (murder, etc). We can choose how to live, and in this sense, we are responsible for our reality. While I don't see myself as an activist, I suppose I am in this respect. There are too many people that want to maintain that this world is imperceptible and that everything is subjectivity. Perhaps, but you cannot actually believe that people should live this way. The fact that some people in one country engage in a particular behavior doesn't make it OK, by this society's standards or by others. The reason this is in the news, is because Thais clearly don't see this as everyday Thai behavior. I'm just shocked by the number of people that leap up to defend something they themselves would, under the right circumstances, admit is (in the very least) bizarre.

[nicknostitz]

I agree, but we cannot exist in human societies where there is no agreement about morality or truth. I believe, metaphysically, that everything is in fact relative. So on that point, I share your perspective. The problem is that we cannot live that way. If we accept that everything is mere opinion and bias, then the distinction between right and wrong ceases to exist. Human societies are simply large aggregations of especially intelligent animals. In order to live peacefully and safely (as much as possible) together, we must create norms of behavior to negate adverse social activities (murder, etc). We can choose how to live, and in this sense, we are responsible for our reality. While I don't see myself as an activist, I suppose I am in this respect. There are too many people that want to maintain that this world is imperceptible and that everything is subjectivity. Perhaps, but you cannot actually believe that people should live this way. The fact that some people in one country engage in a particular behavior doesn't make it OK, by this society's standards or by others. The reason this is in the news, is because Thais clearly don't see this as everyday Thai behavior. I'm just shocked by the number of people that leap up to defend something they themselves would, under the right circumstances, admit is (in the very least) bizarre.

Right and wrong are of course to quite some extend culturally specific, and rooted in religion/philosophy. The age of globalization changes cultures quite rapidly, and what was once seen as right within specific cultural contexts is now increasingly seen as wrong (such as the by you mentioned female circumcision, which is now also increasingly criticized from within those cultures). Culture is anyhow rather fluid, mostly, as evolution is not just a genetic issue.

Within the Thai cultural sphere the belief in Gumarn Thong is extremely widespread, and in this way a cultural/religious norm. Of course not all Thais follow Gumarn Thong cults, and a tiny minority has fetuses in their homes (yet many have manufactured Gumarn Thong, which often include particles of real fetuses). Many are scared of the perceived consequences when they for example lapse in feeding the spirit as it then, according to the believe, will turn on their possessors, and play nasty tricks on them (like a naughty child). Other Thais, with the advance of modernity, have stopped believing, and more orthodox Buddhists reject practice of amulets and spirit believe altogether anyhow. Nevertheless - presently the cult of Gumarn Thong is still cultural norm here, so far. Many Thais though may be not too open about this in front of westerners, as they fear the sort of reactions we can see here in this discussion.

[Semper]

before I even entered the thread I knew I would see a foreign name, not racist or bigoted, I just knew it

I totally agree with you. The stupid tolerant west has given thousands of passports to scum from the following countries and they muddy our reputations. Afghanistan,SriLanka,India,Malaysia and China. These crooks use our passports to travel the world and create mayhem. How often do you hear.... "Australian arrested in Vietnam with drugs or Australian arrested in China with young children held captive in room" ...theyre not Aussies, theyre Asians with Aussie passports issued by Canberra. Same situation goes for Canadians, Brits and Americans.

Its not racism.

Reminds me of a guy called Garry Glitter, he could'nt possible be Brit could he! Anybody know which part of Asia he came from.

We all originated in Africa.

[nicknostitz]

And thinking about cultural norms...

Taking a step back from the culture i grew up in, and observing this from the outside, there are issues that are cultural norms in our culture that personally disgust me a lot more than when somebody here puts a mummified human fetus in his own home or temple, and worships the spirit contained in it.

A few examples:

I find it disgusting not to remove one's shoes when entering a home, carrying dirt and bacteria from the street into the home.

I find it disgusting to sit on a toilet, and prefer the least possible skin contact with the toiled seat, and think squatting is a far more refined way of relieving oneself.

I have a few problems with shaking hands, as i don't know, and don't want to know what the other person has done before shaking my hand.

etc.

[Unkomoncents]

I agree, but we cannot exist in human societies where there is no agreement about morality or truth. I believe, metaphysically, that everything is in fact relative. So on that point, I share your perspective. The problem is that we cannot live that way. If we accept that everything is mere opinion and bias, then the distinction between right and wrong ceases to exist. Human societies are simply large aggregations of especially intelligent animals. In order to live peacefully and safely (as much as possible) together, we must create norms of behavior to negate adverse social activities (murder, etc). We can choose how to live, and in this sense, we are responsible for our reality. While I don't see myself as an activist, I suppose I am in this respect. There are too many people that want to maintain that this world is imperceptible and that everything is subjectivity. Perhaps, but you cannot actually believe that people should live this way. The fact that some people in one country engage in a particular behavior doesn't make it OK, by this society's standards or by others. The reason this is in the news, is because Thais clearly don't see this as everyday Thai behavior. I'm just shocked by the number of people that leap up to defend something they themselves would, under the right circumstances, admit is (in the very least) bizarre.

Right and wrong are of course to quite some extend culturally specific, and rooted in religion/philosophy. The age of globalization changes cultures quite rapidly, and what was once seen as right within specific cultural contexts is now increasingly seen as wrong (such as the by you mentioned female circumcision, which is now also increasingly criticized from within those cultures). Culture is anyhow rather fluid, mostly, as evolution is not just a genetic issue.

Within the Thai cultural sphere the belief in Gumarn Thong is extremely widespread, and in this way a cultural/religious norm. Of course not all Thais follow Gumarn Thong cults, and a tiny minority has fetuses in their homes (yet many have manufactured Gumarn Thong, which often include particles of real fetuses). Many are scared of the perceived consequences when they for example lapse in feeding the spirit as it then, according to the believe, will turn on their possessors, and play nasty tricks on them (like a naughty child). Other Thais, with the advance of modernity, have stopped believing, and more orthodox Buddhists reject practice of amulets and spirit believe altogether anyhow. Nevertheless - presently the cult of Gumarn Thong is still cultural norm here, so far. Many Thais though may be not too open about this in front of westerners, as they fear the sort of reactions we can see here in this discussion.

Couldn't agree more, but most societies would agree on a large number of rules, whether they abide by them or not. Wanton murder is, strangely enough, taboo in all cultures. That's because it's not conducive to human society. Half of my family is Thai and my wife was appalled by this. I understand that some people may do some things and that those things may reflect the culture, but that doesn't make them acceptable in the context of human society (living together so as to reap the benefits of specialization of labor, etc.). Many of the behaviors exhibited in developing countries are fundamentally counter to modern living. For example, in many African cultures, it is believed that unprotected coitus with a virgin will relieve one of physical ailments. Hence the AIDS epidemic. I don't feel like I should have to nod and pat everyone on the back for things that most people, worldwide, would find abhorrent. I just want to know where the fetuses came from. That would make this whole issue much easier to comment on. By the way, I also feel no nostalgia for handshakes.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Unkomoncents

[anterian]

I have no problems with the concept of gumon tong or any other sort of religious relic. What does puzzle me with the gumon tong is how did this idea arise, why should the ghost of a foetus be more powerful or dangerous than the ghost of an adult? Is a gumon tong the Asian equivalent of a poltergeist? Is it the unpredictable behaviour that is feared?

[Para]

I have no problems with the concept of gumon tong or any other sort of religious relic. What does puzzle me with the gumon tong is how did this idea arise, why should the ghost of a foetus be more powerful or dangerous than the ghost of an adult? Is a gumon tong the Asian equivalent of a poltergeist? Is it the unpredictable behaviour that is feared?

The short story is Khun Paen's wife was pregnant and she died. Khun Paen asked Buddha not to let his unborn child die as well so through a somewhat grizzly process Khun Paen's son was 'born' and helped protect him.

Remember Buddhist life is eternal based on positive and negative karma. KMT is certainly no poltergeist more of a Angel as opposed to a ghost. Most Thai's have them as they believe the power contained within is very strong.

Its incredibly hard to get your head around but this is a country with very different beliefs from ours.

Phra Para

[nicknostitz]

Couldn't agree more, but most societies would agree on a large number of rules, whether they abide by them or not. Wanton murder is, strangely enough, taboo in all cultures. That's because it's not conducive to human society. Half of my family is Thai and my wife was appalled by this. I understand that some people may do some things and that those things may reflect the culture, but that doesn't make them acceptable in the context of human society (living together so as to reap the benefits of specialization of labor, etc.). Many of the behaviors exhibited in developing countries are fundamentally counter to modern living. For example, in many African cultures, it is believed that unprotected coitus with a virgin will relieve one of physical ailments. Hence the AIDS epidemic. I don't feel like I should have to nod and pat everyone on the back for things that most people, worldwide, would find abhorrent. I just want to know where the fetuses came from. That would make this whole issue much easier to comment on. By the way, I also feel no nostalgia for handshakes.

Generally, these fetuses come from abortions.

"Real" Gumarn Thong - naturally occurring mummified corpses of fetuses or babies - do come from graveyards, mostly the graveyards of the Thai-Chinese rescue foundations, and when found, they will be specially taken care off, fed clothed and given toys until they will be given a funeral. Organizers of these festivals explained me that they believe it to cause bad karma to force these children's spirits to remain in these corpses.

While i completely agree that the idiocy of having sex with a virgin would remove AIDS and other STD's is not exactly conductive to both evolution and human society, i do not see this issue of fetuses in any way close to this, other than when children would get killed for this purpose, which would be also very much against the cultural-religious norm here in Thailand, and not just in other countries.

There is another practice here, which really stretches even my tolerance - this is "nam man paai". Ask your wife if she has heard of that.

[Para]

There is another practice here, which really stretches even my tolerance - this is "nam man paai". Ask your wife if she has heard of that.

Would you mind posting the Thai for 'nam man paai' as I am struggling to find a translation and will ask one of the Monks here.....

[softgeorge]

What is it with the Chinese? Just over a week ago there was news story about capsules originating from China containing the powdered flesh of babies.

He is British, not Chinese.

Wrong, from the OP. "Chow Hok Kuen, 28, who is of Taiwanese origin"

Sorry I misread the headline "Thai Police Arrest Brit With Foetuses For Black Magic"

No your right it definately says "BRIT" which I believe is short for British. The Brits probably took him in made him a Brit and then he probably buggered off back to the old country with his dual citizenship and passport which makes it easier for him to travel and if he gets in the poop he would probably get more help from the British Government and taxpayer than he would from the taiwanese. A lot of people do it in Australia also. I remember a lot of lebonese who had obtained Australian citizenship and then went home to Beirut to live. When the poop hit the fan they called on the Australian government at Aussie taxpayers expense to get them out and back to Australia and then when everything calmed down it was back home to beirut again.

[Semper]

And thinking about cultural norms...

Taking a step back from the culture i grew up in, and observing this from the outside, there are issues that are cultural norms in our culture that personally disgust me a lot more than when somebody here puts a mummified human fetus in his own home or temple, and worships the spirit contained in it.

A few examples:

I find it disgusting not to remove one's shoes when entering a home, carrying dirt and bacteria from the street into the home.

I find it disgusting to sit on a toilet, and prefer the least possible skin contact with the toiled seat, and think squatting is a far more refined way of relieving oneself.

I have a few problems with shaking hands, as i don't know, and don't want to know what the other person has done before shaking my hand.

etc.

....having sex with someone, you never know who's been there before.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Semper

[anterian]

Para, "The short story is Khun Paen's wife was pregnant and she died. Khun Paen asked Buddha not to let his unborn child die as well so through a somewhat grizzly process Khun Paen's son was 'born' and helped protect him."

I am aware of this story, my problem is that a "one off" incident involving Khun Paen, then becomes a general concept and practice. Particularly when the foetus is not a "family" member but a bought artefact. It's as if Thais said, "Aha, so that's how it's done" and all copied him, but they forgot the involvement of the Buddha.

[Para]

Para, "The short story is Khun Paen's wife was pregnant and she died. Khun Paen asked Buddha not to let his unborn child die as well so through a somewhat grizzly process Khun Paen's son was 'born' and helped protect him."

I am aware of this story, my problem is that a "one off" incident involving Khun Paen, then becomes a general concept and practice. Particularly when the foetus is not a "family" member but a bought artefact. It's as if Thais said, "Aha, so that's how it's done" and all copied him, but they forgot the involvement of the Buddha.

'Particularly when the fetus is not a "family" member'

How do youy know my friend Samsara means we are all trapped in the cycle of birth and rebirth until Enlightenment allows us to leave suffering and spend eternity in Nirvana so maybe that featus was a family member after all?

The whole Khun Paen and lesser know rival of Khun Chan is over 800 years old and was IMO like a lot of Amulets from that time given to soldiers to help protect them during battles. Nang Paya, Phra Rod, Phra Pong Supan another classic highly desirable Amulet from the same era.

Only the unbelievably expensive and desirable Somdej Toh is more recent (150+ years old). Prices from a prime Somdej starts around 5,000,000 and I have heard rumors that Jackie Chan paid almost 50M BT for 1.