Bangkok: Huge Turnout Expected At Red-Shirt Rally Today

[rixalex]

The problem with Nick's reporting isn't to do with how well informed he is, it is to do with the slant he applies. I daresay if i were in such close contact with red shirts as they were waging war in the streets of Bangkok, i too might be affected by sympathies, emotions and personal relationships. It's human nature. A bit like the way Stockholm Syndrome works.

It is rather tiring to constantly be analyzed by our forum pseudo-psychoanalysts who have never even met me. I am a photographer and writer - not Britney Spears.

What a bizarre thing to say. You are happy to judge other writers based on what they write. And you are judging me based on what i write here. Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...

And for your information - if i would indeed only be close to Red Shirts, then you may have a point. I am no less close to friends in the security forces, to many of my colleagues, to academics, to diplomats, and even some yellow shirts. There are more than enough people with whom i can bounce ideas, share and discuss information objectively. This is not just professionally important, but also personally as i am not like you here, who seems to prefer to debate in a mutual appreciation society while rejecting everything that anyone whose views you do not agree upon comes up with.

Yes i suspected you would come back saying how close you also are to people from all sides. I'm sure you aren't lying but all i can say is whenever it comes down to expressing an opinion, rather than simply reporting on facts, the only real sympathies that ever seem evident are those for the red shirts.

Also you may correct me here but you seem to have more publications on red matters than you do any other matter. And have you not even flown out to meet with Thaksin at one of his private residences all those miles away. Have you also met with Abhisit, with Sondhi, with Sonthi, with Suthep, with Prem, at their private residences? Perhaps they won't make time for you? Be natural to reserve a bit of extra affection for someone who has.

[gand]

When you bring weapons on a peace protest, it is NOT a peace protest, it is an assault, a crime and they are responsible for ALL the deaths that then ensued.

[Buchholz]

From the same Chicago Times article quoted above:

"Most red shirts I spoke to said that if they were forced to choose, they would rather see those responsible for the violence go to jail than bring Thaksin home to Thailand," Thida Thawornseth, leader of the red shirts' United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship, told Reuters.

Since way back when when Thida was made Interim President of the Red Shirts, she kept spouting it (the Red Shirts) wasn't about Thaksin.

If she hasn't just been playing a ruse on her followers all this time, now is the time for her and them to show it and prove it.

Opportunity is knocking for her and Reds to completely disassociate from Thaksin (and for real this time) and go off on their own agenda.... which is allegedly to seek justice.

Will they follow that path or will they crack and meekly accept Thaksin's priority of amnesty of all?

Time to sh*t or get off the pot.

I'm sure that you will agree that when the red shirts, to quote you " get off the pot" it will be an improvement on the participatory politic of Thailand.

I know it's a nuisance but them pesky red voters are determined to be heard.

And there are a few million of them and they are increasingly aware .

It depends on how they get off the pot. If they decide to go with their previous tactic of street violence, then no, I don't think it's an improvement of participatory politics. The next go round could be the worst we've ever seen from them. If they decide to disown Thaksin, push for a Parliament dissolution and refuse to return any PTP MP beholding to Thaksin, and refuse any effort for a Thaksin amnesty, then yes, I do think it's an improvement of participatory politics.

As I've said before, though, for any true separation, they have a loooong way to go.

p.s. I fixed your quotes as I see you still struggle to master that aspect after all these years.

.

[Skywalker69]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

All the western media did. Also most of the signs "We want true democracy" was written in English for the western media.

[volk666]

"I prefer to just call myself photographer, I am not such a good journalist." - Nick Nostitz

When do you tire of repeating something i have said 11 years ago?

Then - in 2001 - this was a valid statement. Now we have 2012, and i have managed to learn a bit about journalism in those 11 years, and especially in the past almost 6 years since the coup.

Good thing you moved from covering go-go bars to politics. Imagine if you made all this progress in that area...

What's with reds wearing Nazi swastikas, though? What's their explanation?

We all know it's inexcusable but they must have some reasons and I think we all would like to hear them. Do you have any idea?

I hope it's not a trend but only one weirdo who's heard too many speeches on red democracy.

I wish Robert Amsterdam put this swastika picture on his latest blog an tried to explain it but I don't hold my breath.

http://robertamsterdam.com/thailand/2012/05/20/robert-amsterdam-speech-to-red-shirt-rally-19-may-2012/

[gand]

"I prefer to just call myself photographer, I am not such a good journalist." - Nick Nostitz

When do you tire of repeating something i have said 11 years ago?

Then - in 2001 - this was a valid statement. Now we have 2012, and i have managed to learn a bit about journalism in those 11 years, and especially in the past almost 6 years since the coup.

Good thing you moved from covering go-go bars to politics. Imagine if you made all this progress in that area...

What's with reds wearing Nazi swastikas, though? What's their explanation?

We all know it's inexcusable but they must have some reasons and I think we all would like to hear them. Do you have any idea?

I hope it's not a trend but only one weirdo who's heard too many speeches on red democracy.

I wish Robert Amsterdam put this swastika picture on his latest blog an tried to explain it but I don't hold my breath.

http://robertamsterd...ly-19-may-2012/

Sounds like Robert Amsterdam didn't get the Thaksin memo on forgetting about justice and just forgive and forget. Oh and amnesty for mr T of course.

[nicknostitz]

The problem with Nick's reporting isn't to do with how well informed he is, it is to do with the slant he applies. I daresay if i were in such close contact with red shirts as they were waging war in the streets of Bangkok, i too might be affected by sympathies, emotions and personal relationships. It's human nature. A bit like the way Stockholm Syndrome works.

It is rather tiring to constantly be analyzed by our forum pseudo-psychoanalysts who have never even met me. I am a photographer and writer - not Britney Spears.

What a bizarre thing to say. You are happy to judge other writers based on what they write. And you are judging me based on what i write here. Can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...

And for your information - if i would indeed only be close to Red Shirts, then you may have a point. I am no less close to friends in the security forces, to many of my colleagues, to academics, to diplomats, and even some yellow shirts. There are more than enough people with whom i can bounce ideas, share and discuss information objectively. This is not just professionally important, but also personally as i am not like you here, who seems to prefer to debate in a mutual appreciation society while rejecting everything that anyone whose views you do not agree upon comes up with.

Yes i suspected you would come back saying how close you also are to people from all sides. I'm sure you aren't lying but all i can say is whenever it comes down to expressing an opinion, rather than simply reporting on facts, the only real sympathies that ever seem evident are those for the red shirts.

Also you may correct me here but you seem to have more publications on red matters than you do any other matter. And have you not even flown out to meet with Thaksin at one of his private residences all those miles away. Have you also met with Abhisit, with Sondhi, with Sonthi, with Suthep, with Prem, at their private residences? Perhaps they won't make time for you? Be natural to reserve a bit of extra affection for someone who has.

There is quite a few bits i have to correct here.

I was assigned to photograph Thaksin during an interview conducted by a correspondent of a major German magazine. It was Thaksin's decision to have this interview conducted at his residence. This was the same location where at the time all interviews with Thaksin by all media were conducted - no special favor for me. I would not have cared less if this interview would have been conducted in a hotel or conference room.

I have interviewed, photographed, and spoken with many major players of all sides, including Abhisit and Sondhi L. If Prem would grant me an interview, i would interview him as well, naturally. Suthep does not give interviews to westerners, at least none of my colleagues who requested an interview with Suthep ever got one.

But anyhow, knowing and interviewing leaders is one thing, i personally put more importance on knowing, talking with, and understanding the grassroots level.

In 2008 i had more publications on Yellow, as Yellow was more active. From then on Red was more active, therefore i have naturally more publications on Red. I can't write or photograph anything when there is nothing to write or photograph about. That should not be too difficult to understand, at least i hope so...

And yes, i do judge other writers negatively write when they are do sloppy research, or even worse - distort facts. Without naming names - on both sides of the political divide there are those to be found, especially under those who are never or hardly ever seen in the field and base their stories only on what is fed to them during lunches and dinners.

But you are not a writer, you have never even been close to any event you have strong opinions about...so excuse me if i do not give too much importance on what you have to say to me here.

And now, can we please stop that, as they topic is not Nick Nostitz.

[nicknostitz]

Good thing you moved from covering go-go bars to politics. Imagine if you made all this progress in that area...

What's with reds wearing Nazi swastikas, though? What's their explanation?

We all know it's inexcusable but they must have some reasons and I think we all would like to hear them. Do you have any idea?

I hope it's not a trend but only one weirdo who's heard too many speeches on red democracy.

I wish Robert Amsterdam put this swastika picture on his latest blog an tried to explain it but I don't hold my breath.

http://robertamsterd...ly-19-may-2012/

Ignorance of the history of that particular form of Swastika, history of the Nazis, etc. - simple as that.

A year or so ago i had a bit of a chat with a Red Shirt who wore the same kind of T-Shirt, he just thought it was Red and had a cool sign. I gave a 10 minute crash course on Hitler, the Holocaust, and Nazi-ideology, and he decided that this is not exactly the sort of political ideals he stands for, and thanked me.

[Buchholz]

Red Shirts Send Warning to Thai Elite

Thailand’s “red shirt” movement is flexing its muscles again, saying reconciliation must be preceded by truth and accountability for the political violence that left 91 people dead two years ago.

The leaders of the movement warned that the violence should not be swept under the rug in the interest of a cosy compromise by the political elite. “We want to show the power of the red shirts,” said the movement’s chairman Thida Tavornseth in an interview behind the stage at the rally in downtown Bangkok’s business and shopping district. “We are for reconciliation, but it’s a long way off and you need the truth to come out first.”

Last week, Somsak Jiamthirasakul, a Thammasat University academic, was quoted in the Post Today criticizing red shirt politicians now in positions of power in the government. “It is not fair to ask the grassroots to risk losing their lives while those claiming to love democracy, having been elected, do nothing,” he said. “You are elected to serve the people, not to enjoy political power and cling to your posts.”

Continues:

http://www.thejakart...ai-elite/518980

Straits Times - May 20, 2012

[tlansford]

"I prefer to just call myself photographer, I am not such a good journalist." - Nick Nostitz

When do you tire of repeating something i have said 11 years ago?

Then - in 2001 - this was a valid statement. Now we have 2012, and i have managed to learn a bit about journalism in those 11 years, and especially in the past almost 6 years since the coup.

Does propagandism qualify as journalism these days?

pose that question to the editors at TANN and The Nation.

[Moruya]

Selective memory does not make the truth

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Thaivisa Connect App

[metisdead]

A number of off topic, bickering, inflammatory posts and replies have been removed.

If there is an objectionable post, use the report button to report the objectionable post(s) rather than post about it on the open forum (off topic).

[hyperdimension]

http://www.thejakart...ai-elite/518980

“The purpose of today is to remember our heroes. We must bring the murderers to justice,” said Weng Tojirakarn, one of the movement’s leaders.

Weng and the other Red Shirt leaders should be aware that his own "leader", the mastermind and financier of the riots who supplied military weapons, is one of the "murderers" and must be brought to justice. The protests and subsequent riots were not spontaneous "grassroots"-level actions. There was a chain of command and the terrorist leaders at the top are ultimately responsible, not the "suicide bombers" or those tasked to quell the chaos.

[Moruya]

veena T. ‏@veen_NT

Red shirts have done their duty and now it's the end of the road, says Thaksin. via @jin_nation

Nothing like distancing yourself from all the promises you've made. A diplomatic way of saying, 'Cheers for your help. No 300 baht for you lot!'

Did thaksin say that? Does that mean its over?

Doubtful for that megalomaniac.

Interesting to look at where the situation seems to be heading.

Thaksin fertislied the Red Shirt movement with currency over the years with one aim - getting his sympathisers into govermnment for his own rewards.

Now that the movement has grown arms and legs and has a "real red" at the helm, Tida the communist and others have a different agenda to the PTP.

The former leaders have shown their true colours and are now feeding at the trough of the other amart. These people are now being rejected by the Red Shirt grass roots.

Thaksin and Yingluck are now walking on eggshells. Attempting to diffuse the red shirt movement, tell them that their work is done, reconciliation is the way forwards. Unfortunately his plan for reconciliation includes the amnesty of one Thaksin Shinawatra (surprise, surprise) and that amnesty can only come if it sneaks in under the radar of those guilty of killing others.

More and more we are seeing the real Red Shirt views - execute those responsible for red shirt deaths, make every moo baan, tambon and changwat red, power to the people.

Here the PTP and UDD (plus friends) will diverge and go their own way.

If the Thai curiculum was comprehensive enough to teach people history, they would see the shades of Naziism and Communism. Unfortunately they will probably learn the hard way.

Interesting article on the BP today showing the core Red Shirts turning on Thaksin and accusing him of beig selfish.

[rixalex]

In 2008 i had more publications on Yellow, as Yellow was more active. From then on Red was more active, therefore i have naturally more publications on Red. I can't write or photograph anything when there is nothing to write or photograph about. That should not be too difficult to understand, at least i hope so...

It is absolutely understandable and i don't blame you for it, but it highlights precisely the point i was making. Whilst you have met people from all sides of the divide, your time and attention over the last three or four years has been focused on the red side, and the opportunity to form attachments and personal feelings on that side has therefore obviously been much greater.

And yes, i do judge other writers negatively write when they are do sloppy research, or even worse - distort facts. Without naming names - on both sides of the political divide there are those to be found, especially under those who are never or hardly ever seen in the field and base their stories only on what is fed to them during lunches and dinners.

But you are not a writer, you have never even been close to any event you have strong opinions about...so excuse me if i do not give too much importance on what you have to say to me here.

You have no idea who i am, what i do, or what my experiences have been in Thailand regarding the protests, yet you make assumptions about all those things in the above. Just because you decide to advertise who you are and what you do, doesn't mean we all must. And no, that doesn't mean i have shameful things to hide, it just means that i am wary of how personal details can be used on the net and am not in the habit of sharing this stuff. Kudos to you that you take that risk, but doesn't give you the right to belittle the opinions of others because they don't wish to. This is a public forum in which 99% of users remain anonymous. Everyone's opinion is equal here.

[Crushdepth]

In 2008 i had more publications on Yellow, as Yellow was more active. From then on Red was more active, therefore i have naturally more publications on Red. I can't write or photograph anything when there is nothing to write or photograph about. That should not be too difficult to understand, at least i hope so...

It is absolutely understandable and i don't blame you for it, but it highlights precisely the point i was making. Whilst you have met people from all sides of the divide, your time and attention over the last three or four years has been focused on the red side, and the opportunity to form attachments and personal feelings on that side has therefore obviously been much greater.

And yes, i do judge other writers negatively write when they are do sloppy research, or even worse - distort facts. Without naming names - on both sides of the political divide there are those to be found, especially under those who are never or hardly ever seen in the field and base their stories only on what is fed to them during lunches and dinners.

But you are not a writer, you have never even been close to any event you have strong opinions about...so excuse me if i do not give too much importance on what you have to say to me here.

You have no idea who i am, what i do, or what my experiences have been in Thailand regarding the protests, yet you make assumptions about all those things in the above. Just because you decide to advertise who you are and what you do, doesn't mean we all must. And no, that doesn't mean i have shameful things to hide, it just means that i am wary of how personal details can be used on the net and am not in the habit of sharing this stuff. Kudos to you that you take that risk, but doesn't give you the right to belittle the opinions of others because they don't wish to. This is a public forum in which 99% of users remain anonymous. Everyone's opinion is equal here.

Even if you did post with your real name, nicknostitz would still put it in "quotes" as if you were making it up, and he would still say your opinion was worthless and be rude about it. You could not possibly have been there or seen anything, and if you won't agree to an "interview" (for god's sake!) you must be lying.

The guy is a partisan hack but has appointed himself as the only credible source in Thailand.

[mca]

^ So rather than being rude "partisan hack" is a term of endearment round your neck of the woods mate?

[AleG]

Now that we've had our communal sob-fest for all the poor people killed in 2010, maybe its time for a reminder of what the attitude was in April 2010.

"RPG fired at jet fuel depot in Pathum Thani

Published on April 21, 2010

Culprits fired a rocket propelled grenade to PTT's jet fuel depot in Pathum Thani's Lumlukka district on Wednesday morning.

Police believed the attack was an attempt to stage a sabotage in the country.

Police found the RPG's components at the depots.

The attack caused a hole at the T410D depot which contained 22 million liters of oil. Luckily, officials could extinguish a small fire and sealed the hole in time before the fire extended."

If that attack had been successful, how many would have died?

There were other sabotage attempts, like blowing up the power lines feeding Bangkok:

For example after the crackdown on April 10th when some 23 people were killed and up to 800 injured in a major clash in Bangkok that night there was an attempt to blow up power lines in Ayutthaya province north of the capital using C4 military explosives.

All in all, during the "peaceful protest" there were, IIRC, around 90 bombings of different kinds.

Which reminds me, whatever happened with the case of the PTP MP connected to the Red Shirt bomber that blew up half a condo?

[Buchholz]

Now that we've had our communal sob-fest for all the poor people killed in 2010, maybe its time for a reminder of what the attitude was in April 2010.

"RPG fired at jet fuel depot in Pathum Thani

Published on April 21, 2010

Culprits fired a rocket propelled grenade to PTT's jet fuel depot in Pathum Thani's Lumlukka district on Wednesday morning.

Police believed the attack was an attempt to stage a sabotage in the country.

Police found the RPG's components at the depots.

The attack caused a hole at the T410D depot which contained 22 million liters of oil. Luckily, officials could extinguish a small fire and sealed the hole in time before the fire extended."

If that attack had been successful, how many would have died?

There were other sabotage attempts, like blowing up the power lines feeding Bangkok:

For example after the crackdown on April 10th when some 23 people were killed and up to 800 injured in a major clash in Bangkok that night there was an attempt to blow up power lines in Ayutthaya province north of the capital using C4 military explosives.

All in all, during the "peaceful protest" there were, IIRC, around 90 bombings of different kinds.

Which reminds me, whatever happened with the case of the PTP MP connected to the Red Shirt bomber that blew up half a condo?

Pheu Thai Party MP Wisut Chainarun (shaking hands with Yingluck) was promoted to Deputy House Speaker on August 2, 2011.

.

[nicknostitz]

In 2008 i had more publications on Yellow, as Yellow was more active. From then on Red was more active, therefore i have naturally more publications on Red. I can't write or photograph anything when there is nothing to write or photograph about. That should not be too difficult to understand, at least i hope so...

It is absolutely understandable and i don't blame you for it, but it highlights precisely the point i was making. Whilst you have met people from all sides of the divide, your time and attention over the last three or four years has been focused on the red side, and the opportunity to form attachments and personal feelings on that side has therefore obviously been much greater.

And yes, i do judge other writers negatively write when they are do sloppy research, or even worse - distort facts. Without naming names - on both sides of the political divide there are those to be found, especially under those who are never or hardly ever seen in the field and base their stories only on what is fed to them during lunches and dinners.

But you are not a writer, you have never even been close to any event you have strong opinions about...so excuse me if i do not give too much importance on what you have to say to me here.

You have no idea who i am, what i do, or what my experiences have been in Thailand regarding the protests, yet you make assumptions about all those things in the above. Just because you decide to advertise who you are and what you do, doesn't mean we all must. And no, that doesn't mean i have shameful things to hide, it just means that i am wary of how personal details can be used on the net and am not in the habit of sharing this stuff. Kudos to you that you take that risk, but doesn't give you the right to belittle the opinions of others because they don't wish to. This is a public forum in which 99% of users remain anonymous. Everyone's opinion is equal here.

There is another reason why it is much easier to form personal relationships with Red Shirts than with the other side. While the Red Shirts are much more open to western journalists and also to criticism, the Yellow Shirts from the start have been not overly welcoming and can be vile when faced with criticism.

Let me give you a few examples: already the backstage design of PAD 1 and 2 was such that there were several perimeters. Journalists were not allowed into the inner perimeter. Especially during PAD 2 there were whole areas which were completely closed off to us, especially during the government house occupation. During Red Shirt rallies we can freely mingle everywhere, and that was so from the beginning. It is much easier to meet Red Shirt leaders for background chats than Yellow Shirt leaders. These things improved though during the PAD rallies in 2011 in front of Government House, but by then the PAD was a spent force already and quite irrelevant.

As to criticism - after i wrote my story on the Oct. 7 incident, the PAD derided me from the stage, and accused me of having accepted a huge bribe from Thaksin, which made my life very difficult for quite some time. For a month i even needed a bodyguard when going out in public.

In many of my stories i have been critical of the Red Shirts as well, i have, for example, never bought the peaceful movement talk. That led to discussions with Red Shirt leaders, but nothing else. I have strongly criticized the Red Shirts for permanently occupying Rajaprasong, and told several leaders at the time that i will be critical over this action. This again led to discussion, but not to be shunned or accused of bribery and such.

It is more difficult for Thai journalists as they will get problems from both sides, yet if you ask the regular crowd of Thai political Thai journalists that work in the field, they will tell you that nevertheless, it is a much more pleasant experience to work in the Red Shirts than under their opponents, even though at times they have to work under very difficult conditions in the Red camp.

There are a few Yellow leaders with whom i have a very good relationship, especially with the Thai Patriot Network leaders, such as Chaiwat, etc.

And a basic point here: i am not in the habit of pretending to be somebody i am not. My ideals and values are formed by being a westerner, with all the luggage of humanism, the belief that all humans have an inherent equal worth, etc. The Yellow side's philosophy is quite opposed to many of those values. Their views on Thai society and where it should go in the future are, lets say, quite reactionary, and to a large part they reject western political systems and philosophy. This is made quite clear not just in speeches but also in personal conversations.

Nevertheless, i do go to Yellow rallies whenever they are taking place. In 2011 i have spent more time at Yellow rallies than at Red rallies - i just didn't have the time to write about them, yet. Don't forget - i do not get paid for my stories on New Mandala.

I don't know who you are, and naturally, i do not blame you for staying anonymous, given the extreme nastiness that get thrown at people who do take a position. Taking a position, by the way, is perfectly acceptable in journalism, and very different from being biased, and only a natural development when one works a subject intensively. One has to take utmost care though to stay objective and factual. And i have always done so. As i said already, i am in close contact with many people that help me to constantly re-evaluate my position, many of those people have extensive experience in the field, others are theoretically far more knowledgeable than i am.

There is a lot involved by working such a complex subject matter, far more than you and others see. It is not just running to a protest, getting quotes, write some stuff and that's it. You say that i may not know what your experience regarding the protests are. Well, i am sorry, but judging from all you have written here, these experiences do not seem to be very extensive, as most posters here. Which is OK, why should you or anyone spend that much time with this mess anyhow? That is what people like I are for.

What is unacceptable though are the consistent personal accusations i have to bear with. Criticize me factually, where i am wrong, give me facts that challenge mine, and it helps me to do better work. Whenever i have asked for facts though here on this forum from my critics, they disappeared with flimsy excuses, or, as it turned out, have not even be anywhere near the events they criticize my accounts over.

[phiphidon]

Would that be "unidentified sniper"? And exactly what purpose would the random killing of a protester serve the RTA who are just about to start a crowd dispersal operation with troops equipped with shields and batons? BTW a non-lethal strategy

How do you totally discount that that killing was carried out by the MIB? Who benefits?

Do you think it is normal for an RTA sniper team of 2 to collude to a senseless thrill murder?

You still really believe that the troops present that day were only equipped with riot shields and batons? Not accompanied by troops with live ammunition?

Actually, no, though its quite possible that politicians didn't know about it. It would be quite normal, given the size of the crowd to be dispersed, the extremely violent rhetoric being fed them and past history of violent assault, to have some troops carrying rifles, and usually a mix of blank and live rounds - blanks for fear-mongering, live rounds if things got really ugly. WHICH IT DID. But to a much greater extent than was anticipated. I mean really, who expects "peaceful protesters" to conduct an ambush strike?

Now that I have answered your question, would you answer mine in the post you chose to reply to?

You haven't answered my question and you didn't read the links obviously. Suthep, the deputy PM, Head of CRES, reporting to Abhisit, signed the order authorising the carrying and use of live ammunition on the 10th April, so the possibility of politicians not knowing about it is Zero.

Who benefits - it depends on the mindset of the people who authorised the use of live ammunition. As you said who expects peaceful protesters to strike back (I disregard your description of an ambush for obvious reasons - the red shirts gathered at Kok Wua didn't invite the soldiers to advance firing into the air and/or into the crowd, so hardly an ambush). If you had read my links you would have read this in The Nation piece by Pravit:

While I personally think it's absolutely wrong and against the international norm for the Abhisit administration to have dispatched Army troops and war weapons to disperse largely unarmed protesters, red shirts will also have to answer about whom the men in black actually were and the use of M-79 explosives on that fateful night, and during the days and weeks that followed.

Nevertheless, I think the prime responsibility lies with Abhisit, as any democratic government should first resort to the use of riot police, tear gas, water cannon and batons until it's completely self-evident that police alone cannot handle the crowd. Soldiers and war weapons are definitely not for crowd control in a democratic society - period.

http://www.nationmul...l-30179818.html

There is a video that has been posted on this forum, ironically to allegedly show that the red shirts attacked the soldiers first, in fact it did the exact opposite. The good thing about that video is that it is in real time with no cuts. It plainly shows the security troops at first playing music and then advancing and then firing shots in the air and/or at red shirts. Then, and only then do the red shirts respond with throwing the sticks from their posters and water bottles. Then come more shots form both sides and eventually the grenade/s?

At the very least the armys actions on that night were provocative in the extreme. I'm not excusing the response but just wish to make the point that the army were not just performing crowd control with shields and batons.

A two man sniper team shooting to thrill? The army guy in this video using a scope seems to take no notice of his mate who wishes him to stop firing. (at end of video)

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVmlkt6adtw[/media]

[phiphidon]

Phiphidon, just a simple question - were you actually in Bangkok during the time if the riots?

I only ask because you talk like somebody who has sourced all of his facts from the western media. I remember watching the BBC world report about it and they presented it in a way that the Red Shirts were revolutionaries standing up to an oppressive government. They revelled in those signs saying "we are not terrorists, we are peaceful protestors". And yet, that very day Bangkok was being engulfed in the fumes of hundreds of tyres burning at heavily armed check points and there were grenades regularly being shot at civilians who had nothing to do with any of this. The western media reported a very twisted version of what I experienced at the time, and to what I saw the video footage of in the Thai news everyday.

There seems to be a very different viewpoint from people who were actually here and saw some of the riots first hand and had their life affected for one month, compared to the red shirt sympathisers on this forum who spout quotes from the UK Guardian of all sources.

Nick Nostitz (spelling) was on the ground on many occasions and his reports and observations have been rejected by many forum members here as biased.......so your thought process does not stand up to scrutiny

Your question is not simple enough, Matt.

That's why it goes unanswered.

.

We'll see. Its getting late here so maybe PPD has called it a night (actually, I have no idea if he does in fact reside in Thailand).

If he posts again ignoring my basic question then Ill assume he was nowhere near the riots and only harbours his facts from TV (in this instance, both this forum and television!).

You can assume all you like and judging by your posts that is not a skill you are deficient at.

I was not in Bangkok at the time of the riots and am thankful for that. Why? Because it does mean that I can observe, read articles, take part in forums etc without that chip of "I was there at the Bangkok Riots, I'm a victim too" consistently blurring my insight.

I understand that there are some non Thais on here that were genuinely personally affected by the events in Bangkok in 2010. I have read of westerners who hate Thaksin because they lost their job/money in a telecom business he set up, another whose wife gave birth prematurely because a red shirt "literally" threw her out of bed whilst looking for snipers in Chulakorn Hospital, yet another whose cousins' sister (or something like that) gave birth in a taxi because of traffic jams caused by red shirts setting up roadblocks, there's even one guy on here who posts regularly about how he's liquidating his considerable fortune (I say considerable, because he's been "liquidating" it for over a year now) in the fear of Thaksin coming back to Thailand and yet at least one more that has promised to leave Thailand the minute Taksin appears.

OK, I understand your stance. What I don't understand are members who diss anything they don't agree with. Case in point, Why is the Guardian or CNN or any other western media so laughable as a source? Have you fed into the belief that Thais are inscrutable (they are to an extent, but not totally) and that no westerners will ever understand. To the contrary the average westerner (if they wish to) has a far more vast access to knowledge regarding the situation than the average Thai. Certain banned articles are accessible, with their associated risks.

To rely on local sources (including this forum) is to deny yourself knowledge. Why do you think the economist is not distributed within Thailand on occasion? We can't even discuss the situation fully on any public forum in Thailand. Any media source associated with the UDD was shut down (only in some cases for genuine "threat" reasons). This left State (and in some cases Army run) TV to transmit what they wanted.Did you query the army spokesman when he stated that no live bullets were fired, the army was not responsible for any deaths, the 500 men in black?. When Suthep stated that the photographs and videos clearly showing soldiers on the tracks above the Wat were taken on the 20th May, not the 19th May?

No, all that is said is the red shirts are armed and deserved to be shot dead.

So, yes, I am biased towards the UDD but I'm upfront with it and provide examples why where I can. You, you were in Bangkok "when they tried to burn it down" and were inconvenienced for a month.

[Insight]

Serious question, Nick....

It's pretty clear that the red shirts don't want Thailand and the rest of the world to forget about those who were killed during the clampdown of May 2010. Clearly a lot of resources have gone into planning this memorial event for the 91 deaths which occurred throughout the protest and clampdown.

Why is there no similar memorial to commemorate the deaths of the red shirts allegedly killed during the army clampdown of the red shirt protests in 2009? Specifically those allegedly killed at Din Deang, an event you were apparently an eyewitness to...? Surely the people who were killed in this clampdown should also be remembered?

Has the exact death tool from this action by the army even been established yet? It has been over three years now.

[metisdead]

Troll posts have been removed as well as some posts not contributing to the discussion at hand.

[Mosha]

A picture is worth a thousand words we are told. This particular image left me speechless,.

Do we now see the true face of the Red Shirt movement appearing led by a despotic character who resides outside of the Kingdom.

Graphic image courtesy of http://www.facebook....35060922&type=1

Do you actually think they have any idea what the meaning of a swastika is? Most Thais I speak to had no history lessons of any real sort. When you ask the average Thai with a high school education (much less without!) what they know about world war II, they stare at you. Have you ever asked a Thai to point out Poland, or Germany on a map? Have you ever asked a Thai what they know about the Third Reich?

Do you know what the swastika means in buddhism.

That one on the shirt is not a Bhuddist swastika, and you know it isn't.

[hyperdimension]

A picture is worth a thousand words we are told. This particular image left me speechless,.

Do we now see the true face of the Red Shirt movement appearing led by a despotic character who resides outside of the Kingdom.

Graphic image courtesy of http://www.facebook....35060922&type=1

Do you actually think they have any idea what the meaning of a swastika is? Most Thais I speak to had no history lessons of any real sort. When you ask the average Thai with a high school education (much less without!) what they know about world war II, they stare at you. Have you ever asked a Thai to point out Poland, or Germany on a map? Have you ever asked a Thai what they know about the Third Reich?

Do you know what the swastika means in buddhism.

That one on the shirt is not a Bhuddist swastika, and you know it isn't.

But maybe she thought it was a Buddhist swastika, but nobody taught her the difference. Can someone please email her this?:

[nicknostitz]

Serious question, Nick....

It's pretty clear that the red shirts don't want Thailand and the rest of the world to forget about those who were killed during the clampdown of May 2010. Clearly a lot of resources have gone into planning this memorial event for the 91 deaths which occurred throughout the protest and clampdown.

Why is there no similar memorial to commemorate the deaths of the red shirts allegedly killed during the army clampdown of the red shirt protests in 2009? Specifically those allegedly killed at Din Deang, an event you were apparently an eyewitness to...? Surely the people who were killed in this clampdown should also be remembered?

Has the exact death tool from this action by the army even been established yet? It has been over three years now.

What is your point?

How many times shall it be repeated that there is no proof that Red Shirts were killed in the 2009 crackdown by the military? There are suspicions that a few may have been killed, but no names and clear enough evidence.

That doesn't mean though that Red Shirts do not talk about what they label as 'Bloody Songkran' - they do.

There are even memorial events still over Numthong - the taxi driver who committed suicide in protest of the coup in late 2006.

English language mainstream local media here in Thailand reports does not reflect the level of discussion under Red Shirts, the Red Shirt movement's diversified structures and only reports a tiny fraction of events. It is not the foreign media's job to report on every detail of this conflict.

Again - what is your point?

A question that would have a point now, which though nobody here has asked so far, is how Red Shirt protesters have felt when listening to Thaksin's speech at the Rajaprasong event two days ago. The answer is - to a large part they were very disappointed. I leave it to you to find out what Thaksin has said, and why protesters were/are disappointed, a feeling that has already begun after the Siam Reap speech.

[Nisa]

How many times are folks going to beat this horse in regards to the Swastika????

It is absolutely ridiculous to go on about the meaning (ancient, religious, current, political...) of this symbol in these cases where the wearer (be it kids at a school or Red Shirts) almost surely had none of these things in mind. Surely no reasonable person here believes this women is trying to promote either Nazism or Buddhism by wearing this shirt.

[AleG]

...

So, yes, I am biased towards the UDD but I'm upfront with it and provide examples why where I can. You, you were in Bangkok "when they tried to burn it down" and were inconvenienced for a month.

Inconvenienced for a month?

A city, nay, a country in the brink of civil war, daily bombings everywhere, daily life disrupted, shootings on the streets, promises to burn down the city... my GF could had been one of the victims of the Sala Daeng attack as she normally went through that station at that time returning from work. You call living in such a state an inconvenience?

So you were not here, you have no idea of what you are talking about; take your inconvenience and shove it.

[Buchholz]

A question that would have a point now, which though nobody here has asked so far, is how Red Shirt protesters have felt when listening to Thaksin's speech at the Rajaprasong event two days ago. The answer is - to a large part they were very disappointed. I leave it to you to find out what Thaksin has said, and why protesters were/are disappointed, a feeling that has already begun after the Siam Reap speech.

The question was raised a hundred posts ago...

http://www.thaivisa....00#entry5316820

.