Un Observers Confirms Death Of 92 People In Syrian Town

[Lite Beer]

UN observers confirms death of 92 people in Syrian town

Beirut - United Nations observers confirmed Saturday, after visiting a town in central Syria, that 92 people had died there - among them 32 children - in what activists said was shelling by government forces.

The head of the UN observers in Syria, Robert Mood, described the incident in the town of Houla as a "brutal tragedy."

Members of the UN team toured Houla to assess the situation after reports of a massacre in the town, where activists said more than 100 people were killed on Friday night after heavy shelling on the area by Syrian troops.

Blasts and gunfire were heard in Houla, 200 kilometres north of Damascus, as the observers arrived in the town, activists said.

The reported massacre was one of the worst in Syria’s 15-month uprising.

The rebel opposition Free Syrian Army (FSA) called on the UN to meet its responsibilities and stop the violence in Syria. Otherwise, it said, the group could no longer commit to the ceasefire brokered by UN-Arab League envoy, Kofi Annan.

Annan and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon issued a statement condemning the killings.

"This appalling and brutal crime involving indiscriminate and disproportionate use of force is a flagrant violation of international law and of the commitments of the Syrian government to cease the use of heavy weapons in population centres and violence in all its forms," they said in a statement released in New York and Geneva.

"Those responsible for perpetrating this crime must be held to account," they said, calling on President Bashar al-Assad to end the use of heavy weaponry in populated areas and end all violence in the country.

-- The Nation 2012-05-27

[FOODLOVER]

Hmm, wouldn't want those dam_n Americans to get involved. Let the innocents die as this is what the world wants. No dam_n American interference! Yeah right, what are the rest doing? Absolutely nothing! American bashers, what should be done?

Edited May 27, 2012 by FOODLOVER

[geriatrickid]

Hmm, wouldn't want those dam_n Americans to get involved. Let the innocents die as this is what the world wants. No dam_n American interference! Yeah right, what are the rest doing? Absolutely nothing! American bashers, what should be done?

maybe the French would be interested. They seem to have personnel available now.

[Steely Dan]

Hmm, wouldn't want those dam_n Americans to get involved. Let the innocents die as this is what the world wants. No dam_n American interference! Yeah right, what are the rest doing? Absolutely nothing! American bashers, what should be done?

I'm no American basher, but there is considerable fear that Al-Qaeda are part of the opposition to the current odious Syrian regime, and should the Muslim brotherhood take over you will get ethnic cleansing of minority groups there as sure as night follows day. Then there is the thorny problem of Iran backing Syria not to mention Russia. I wish something could be done but this is a situation with two dead ends but you still have to choose.

[FOODLOVER]

Hmm, wouldn't want those dam_n Americans to get involved. Let the innocents die as this is what the world wants. No dam_n American interference! Yeah right, what are the rest doing? Absolutely nothing! American bashers, what should be done?

maybe the French would be interested. They seem to have personnel available now.

Hmm, wouldn't want those dam_n Americans to get involved. Let the innocents die as this is what the world wants. No dam_n American interference! Yeah right, what are the rest doing? Absolutely nothing! American bashers, what should be done?

maybe the French would be interested. They seem to have personnel available now.

What about the rest? World police? Let them die? Edited May 27, 2012 by FOODLOVER

[folium]

maybe the French would be interested. They seem to have personnel available now.

Not getting your post, sorry.

It's a snide little comment based on the misconception that French combat troops are the only ones to be departing Afghanistan in a hurry.

Edited May 27, 2012 by folium

[Derifo]

Those responsible for perpetrating this crime must be held to account," they said, calling on President Bashar al-Assad to end the use of heavy weaponry in populated areas and end all violence in the country.

What about asking those arming the rebels to stop arming them?

There's always two sides to a story.

[Colin Yai]

Those responsible for perpetrating this crime must be held to account," they said, calling on President Bashar al-Assad to end the use of heavy weaponry in populated areas and end all violence in the country.

What about asking those arming the rebels to stop arming them?

There's always two sides to a story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18235965 Reading this link leads me to believe that there is a lot more to this tragedy than at first met the eye ,and before accusing fingers are pointed there should be a full scale independent Inquiry (if that's possible) personally I find that Assad is not wholly to blame ,as with the whole world watching this would be a terrible own goal for him and his regime .

[folium]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18235965 Reading this link leads me to believe that there is a lot more to this tragedy than at first met the eye ,and before accusing fingers are pointed there should be a full scale independent Inquiry (if that's possible) personally I find that Assad is not wholly to blame ,as with the whole world watching this would be a terrible own goal for him and his regime .

Nice to see you lining up with the Soviets on this one, or is the theory that this atrocity was committed by AQ as the Assad media is trying to push this version as hard as possible. Hopefully AQ don't possess tanks and artillery and are unlikely to coordinate operations with the Syrian army.

The Syrians have been decisively blocking any UN inquiry from Syria and the proposed Syrian investigation is a hollow gesture.

The Syrians have plenty of form in this type of operation. At Hama in 1982 it took a week for the army to regain control of the city despite extensive use of artillery and aerial bombardment, which was then followed up by 2 weeks of "insurgent cleansing" which saw widespread destruction, rape and the killing of between 10-40,000 people. The Syrian government has few compunctions about slaughtering its own people and the most likely perpetrators of the Houla massacre are Alawite militia.

Seems the Russians are busy rearming their key ally with a Russian freighter unloading munitions in the port of Tartous over the weekend, and the Iranians have also admitted for the first time that they have troops on the ground within Syria.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/28/syria-army-iran-forces

The rebels are a long way from being well-equipped or extensively foreign backed, see below:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/21/syrian-rebels-cling-to-bullets-and-hope?INTCMP=SRCH

In sadly too many ways Syria is showing signs of becoming another Bosnia, which may either require large-scale, decisive foreign intervention or allowing the full-blown butchery of a civil war to take over in the country. Bosnia saw over 100,000 dead and over 2 million displaced before peace was achieved.

The situation is probably best summed up by the following statement by a Syrian in the northern part of the country:

"Nothing will happen before the American elections, will it?" one man asked rhetorically from the floor of his sitting room. "And the French are too busy at home. Turkey and Saudi Arabia will do nothing without America, so it will come down to us."

[Colin Yai]

My Deepest Sincere apologies Folium for having an opinion that differs from yours ,however I did write that there should be an Independent Inquiry ,maybe you agree with that, or is your mind already made up as to EXACTLY what took place?.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Colin Yai

[koheesti]

So where is the Arab League during all this? Weren't they supposed to send peace keepers? Or could they not find any Arab armies that had any idea how to do that?

The USA along with the UK, Oz and Canada wouldn't need to be the world's sherriff & posse if regional powers could take care of their own neighborhood problems.

[chuckd]

The Russians might be getting some heat about Assad's actions. I wonder if these remarks were made before or after the latest weapons shipment was offloaded?

____________________________________________________

Russia condemns ally Syria over massacre of 108

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and LYNN BERRY | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago

BEIRUT (AP) — A weekend massacre of more than 100 people emerged as a potential turning point in the Syrian crisis Monday, galvanizing even staunch ally Russia to take an unusually hard line against President Bashar Assad's government.

Analysts said Russia may be warning Assad that he needs to change course or lose Moscow's support, which has been a key layer of protection for the Syrian government during the uprising that began in March 2011.

Russia has grown increasingly critical of Damascus in recent months, but Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov's latest comments were unusually strong. Although he said opposition forces have terrorists among them, he put the blame for 15 months of carnage primarily on Assad's government.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-condemns-ally-syria-over-massacre-108-182604302.html

[folium]

My Deepest Sincere apologies Folium for having an opinion that differs from yours ,however I did write that there should be an Independent Inquiry ,maybe you agree with that, or is your mind already made up as to EXACTLY what took place?.

Apology accepted.

Would be fantastic if there was an independent inquiry into the Houlla massacre but I fear that there is about as much chance of that happening as you converting to Islam! Though of course it might happen if and when Assad gets turfed out (again similar to the long after the event sequence of Bosnian reviews and prosecutions).

Given the current available evidence I repeat my earlier statement that the likely perpetrators were Alawite militia working in conjunction with the Syrian army, but there may well be a different answer. Hopefully we will get to know exactly what happened one day, and the perpetrators will face their day in court.

[folium]

So where is the Arab League during all this? Weren't they supposed to send peace keepers? Or could they not find any Arab armies that had any idea how to do that?

The USA along with the UK, Oz and Canada wouldn't need to be the world's sherriff & posse if regional powers could take care of their own neighborhood problems.

As with most international organizations the Arab League has to operate within respect for the sovereignity of its member states. The Arab League is largely a political forum and can only exert political and peer pressure on its members. There is no Arab League army nor the mandate for one. While it can thus be criticized as a mere talking shop it has produced a peace plan for Syria in Nov 2011 and sent observers to monitor it being put into effect. Unfortunately Syria has refused to comply with any of the requirements of the peace plan and the observers have been ignored.

Arab League efforts, amongst others, in the UN Security COuncil have been regularly vetoed by Russia and China.

You mention "peacekeepers", but there is currently no peace to keep in Syria. This is not just semantics but fundamental to the whole notion of collective action to resolve conflicts. Peacekeeping can only happen when both sides agree to continue their conflict without further combat. "Peace making" or "peace-enforcing" are totally different operations and require far more assets and resources to be deployed as it is the same as a war-fighting scenario. Who's going to step forward to volunteer there services for that at the present time?

Assad knows this and reckons that with Iranian and Russian support he can get away with it, much as his father did.

Edited May 29, 2012 by folium

[Steely Dan]

So where is the Arab League during all this? Weren't they supposed to send peace keepers? Or could they not find any Arab armies that had any idea how to do that?

The USA along with the UK, Oz and Canada wouldn't need to be the world's sherriff & posse if regional powers could take care of their own neighborhood problems.

The Arab league did send a mission. Half of them were unwilling to leave Damascus and were squabbling over the fact that some observers were given better hotels to stay in. Others conducted clandestine business meetings and treated the mission as a holiday whilst the mission as a whole was led by a Sudanese politician with blood on his hands from the Sudanese genocide, so I really would put no hope behind the Arab league.

[folium]

The Russians might be getting some heat about Assad's actions. I wonder if these remarks were made before or after the latest weapons shipment was offloaded?

____________________________________________________

Russia condemns ally Syria over massacre of 108

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and LYNN BERRY | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago

BEIRUT (AP) — A weekend massacre of more than 100 people emerged as a potential turning point in the Syrian crisis Monday, galvanizing even staunch ally Russia to take an unusually hard line against President Bashar Assad's government.

Analysts said Russia may be warning Assad that he needs to change course or lose Moscow's support, which has been a key layer of protection for the Syrian government during the uprising that began in March 2011.

Russia has grown increasingly critical of Damascus in recent months, but Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov's latest comments were unusually strong. Although he said opposition forces have terrorists among them, he put the blame for 15 months of carnage primarily on Assad's government.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-condemns-ally-syria-over-massacre-108-182604302.html

Russia has some key strategic interests in Syria, principally the port of Tartous which supports their Mediterranean fleet. Syria is the only real ally of Russia's in the Middle East and is well positioned to create problems for the US and Israel, whether it be via neighbouring Lebanon or Iraq. They also buy plenty of Russian military hardware.

Rather than abstaining in the UN as it did over Libya, Russia is keen to demonstrate its powerbroking muscle and be seen to be a player in the region. All in all whether it be pride, profit or power projection Russia will be a key player in the Syrian crisis.

[Steely Dan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-18235965 Reading this link leads me to believe that there is a lot more to this tragedy than at first met the eye ,and before accusing fingers are pointed there should be a full scale independent Inquiry (if that's possible) personally I find that Assad is not wholly to blame ,as with the whole world watching this would be a terrible own goal for him and his regime .

Nice to see you lining up with the Soviets on this one, or is the theory that this atrocity was committed by AQ as the Assad media is trying to push this version as hard as possible. Hopefully AQ don't possess tanks and artillery and are unlikely to coordinate operations with the Syrian army.

The Syrians have been decisively blocking any UN inquiry from Syria and the proposed Syrian investigation is a hollow gesture.

The Syrians have plenty of form in this type of operation. At Hama in 1982 it took a week for the army to regain control of the city despite extensive use of artillery and aerial bombardment, which was then followed up by 2 weeks of "insurgent cleansing" which saw widespread destruction, rape and the killing of between 10-40,000 people. The Syrian government has few compunctions about slaughtering its own people and the most likely perpetrators of the Houla massacre are Alawite militia.

Seems the Russians are busy rearming their key ally with a Russian freighter unloading munitions in the port of Tartous over the weekend, and the Iranians have also admitted for the first time that they have troops on the ground within Syria.

Indeed there was Hama, where Assad Senior got away with far more that his son did and nobody did squat - perhaps they were otherwise preoccupied with accusing Israel of genocide by proxy when 150 odd Palestinians were murdered by Lebanese militia to worry about 25,000 dead civilians in Syria in the very same year.

Never mind though, I think we all agree that Assad's actions are detestable, the question stands however; why is the current news item the final straw, if that is how it turns out to be, in view of the fact that over 7000 have already been murdered before the current 92?

[folium]

Indeed there was Hama, where Assad Senior got away with far more that his son did and nobody did squat - perhaps they were otherwise preoccupied with accusing Israel of genocide by proxy when 150 odd Palestinians were murdered by Lebanese militia to worry about 25,000 dead civilians in Syria in the very same year.

Never mind though, I think we all agree that Assad's actions are detestable, the question stands however; why is the current news item the final straw, if that is how it turns out to be, in view of the fact that over 7000 have already been murdered before the current 92?

Let's not get into a Sabra/Chatila discussion as no one comes out of that one smelling of roses.

Why now? Why does Houla make a difference? Probably the number of kids and the footage makes a big difference. The fact that many of the victims had been hacked to death, bayoneted, bludgeoned and throats cut underlines the barbarity of the act.

In July 1995 the Serbs murdered the 8000 menfolk of Srebrenica and gang raped the women and girls. This one act (despite all the previous slaughter and destruction) made people look at Bosnia in a different light and propelled a more decisive intervention that ultimately brought about an end to the conflict.

Hopefully the deaths of these 108 people in Houla will also bring about a change in how the significant players in this act think and operate. But perhaps I am just being too optimistic and naive.

[folium]

Good summary of the different organizations that make up the Syrian military/paramilitary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18241830

[Steely Dan]

Indeed there was Hama, where Assad Senior got away with far more that his son did and nobody did squat - perhaps they were otherwise preoccupied with accusing Israel of genocide by proxy when 150 odd Palestinians were murdered by Lebanese militia to worry about 25,000 dead civilians in Syria in the very same year.

Never mind though, I think we all agree that Assad's actions are detestable, the question stands however; why is the current news item the final straw, if that is how it turns out to be, in view of the fact that over 7000 have already been murdered before the current 92?

Let's not get into a Sabra/Chatila discussion as no one comes out of that one smelling of roses.

Why now? Why does Houla make a difference? Probably the number of kids and the footage makes a big difference. The fact that many of the victims had been hacked to death, bayoneted, bludgeoned and throats cut underlines the barbarity of the act.

In July 1995 the Serbs murdered the 8000 menfolk of Srebrenica and gang raped the women and girls. This one act (despite all the previous slaughter and destruction) made people look at Bosnia in a different light and propelled a more decisive intervention that ultimately brought about an end to the conflict.

Hopefully the deaths of these 108 people in Houla will also bring about a change in how the significant players in this act think and operate. But perhaps I am just being too optimistic and naive.

I'm pretty sure the preceding 7000 died in no less barbaric a manner, I have already read allegations regarding the torture of children long before anyone seemed to give a stuff about events in Syria. As for Bosnia, I think I could quite easily argue in the same manner as you do about Sabra and Shatila, except there has been a U.N backed whitewash of crimes committed against the Serbs which are quite horrific, but probably also off topic - however my main point is what in all cases is recorded as the catalyst for external action and whether this gels with material facts of proportional importance taking place.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Steely Dan

[chuckd]

The Russians might be getting some heat about Assad's actions. I wonder if these remarks were made before or after the latest weapons shipment was offloaded?

____________________________________________________

Russia condemns ally Syria over massacre of 108

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and LYNN BERRY | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago

BEIRUT (AP) — A weekend massacre of more than 100 people emerged as a potential turning point in the Syrian crisis Monday, galvanizing even staunch ally Russia to take an unusually hard line against President Bashar Assad's government.

Analysts said Russia may be warning Assad that he needs to change course or lose Moscow's support, which has been a key layer of protection for the Syrian government during the uprising that began in March 2011.

Russia has grown increasingly critical of Damascus in recent months, but Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov's latest comments were unusually strong. Although he said opposition forces have terrorists among them, he put the blame for 15 months of carnage primarily on Assad's government.

http://news.yahoo.co...-182604302.html

Russia has some key strategic interests in Syria, principally the port of Tartous which supports their Mediterranean fleet. Syria is the only real ally of Russia's in the Middle East and is well positioned to create problems for the US and Israel, whether it be via neighbouring Lebanon or Iraq. They also buy plenty of Russian military hardware.

Rather than abstaining in the UN as it did over Libya, Russia is keen to demonstrate its powerbroking muscle and be seen to be a player in the region. All in all whether it be pride, profit or power projection Russia will be a key player in the Syrian crisis.

Iran has been a Russian ally for years. I first casually met and talked to Russian scientists in 1975 in Iran.

I would presume they are still allies since they still have trading relationships with one another.

China cannot be ruled out as another power broker in the region either. The Chinese have very long trading tentacles.

[folium]

I'm pretty sure the preceding 7000 died in no less barbaric a manner, I have already read allegations regarding the torture of children long before anyone seemed to give a stuff about events in Syria. As for Bosnia, I think I could quite easily argue in the same manner as you do about Sabra and Shatila, except there has been a U.N backed whitewash of crimes committed against the Serbs which are quite horrific, but probably also off topic - however my main point is what in all cases is recorded as the catalyst for external action and whether this gels with material facts of proportional importance taking place.

I'm actually trying to agree with you for once!

Tragically we cannot bring back to life the 7000-8000 people already killed in Syria, but if the Houla murders prevent another 8000 deaths in the future as it galvanizes people into action to resolve the conflict, then at least their deaths will not have been in vain.

[folium]

The Russians might be getting some heat about Assad's actions. I wonder if these remarks were made before or after the latest weapons shipment was offloaded?

____________________________________________________

Russia condemns ally Syria over massacre of 108

By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and LYNN BERRY | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago

BEIRUT (AP) — A weekend massacre of more than 100 people emerged as a potential turning point in the Syrian crisis Monday, galvanizing even staunch ally Russia to take an unusually hard line against President Bashar Assad's government.

Analysts said Russia may be warning Assad that he needs to change course or lose Moscow's support, which has been a key layer of protection for the Syrian government during the uprising that began in March 2011.

Russia has grown increasingly critical of Damascus in recent months, but Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov's latest comments were unusually strong. Although he said opposition forces have terrorists among them, he put the blame for 15 months of carnage primarily on Assad's government.

http://news.yahoo.co...-182604302.html

Russia has some key strategic interests in Syria, principally the port of Tartous which supports their Mediterranean fleet. Syria is the only real ally of Russia's in the Middle East and is well positioned to create problems for the US and Israel, whether it be via neighbouring Lebanon or Iraq. They also buy plenty of Russian military hardware.

Rather than abstaining in the UN as it did over Libya, Russia is keen to demonstrate its powerbroking muscle and be seen to be a player in the region. All in all whether it be pride, profit or power projection Russia will be a key player in the Syrian crisis.

Iran has been a Russian ally for years. I first casually met and talked to Russian scientists in 1975 in Iran.

I would presume they are still allies since they still have trading relationships with one another.

China cannot be ruled out as another power broker in the region either. The Chinese have very long trading tentacles.

Iran and Russia have always had a rather choppy relationship (the joys of being 2 proud, neighbouring countries, rather like the UK and France!), and things went rather frosty when the Russians ditched a mutli-billion$ arms deal in 2010. Syria has been a far more steady partner with Russia by comparison.

[Colin Yai]

Indeed there was Hama, where Assad Senior got away with far more that his son did and nobody did squat - perhaps they were otherwise preoccupied with accusing Israel of genocide by proxy when 150 odd Palestinians were murdered by Lebanese militia to worry about 25,000 dead civilians in Syria in the very same year.

Never mind though, I think we all agree that Assad's actions are detestable, the question stands however; why is the current news item the final straw, if that is how it turns out to be, in view of the fact that over 7000 have already been murdered before the current 92?

Let's not get into a Sabra/Chatila discussion as no one comes out of that one smelling of roses.

Why now? Why does Houla make a difference? Probably the number of kids and the footage makes a big difference. The fact that many of the victims had been hacked to death, bayoneted, bludgeoned and throats cut underlines the barbarity of the act.

In July 1995 the Serbs murdered the 8000 menfolk of Srebrenica and gang raped the women and girls. This one act (despite all the previous slaughter and destruction) made people look at Bosnia in a different light and propelled a more decisive intervention that ultimately brought about an end to the conflict.

Hopefully the deaths of these 108 people in Houla will also bring about a change in how the significant players in this act think and operate. But perhaps I am just being too optimistic and naive.

I'm pretty sure the preceding 7000 died in no less barbaric a manner, I have already read allegations regarding the torture of children long before anyone seemed to give a stuff about events in Syria. As for Bosnia, I think I could quite easily argue in the same manner as you do about Sabra and Shatila, except there has been a U.N backed whitewash of crimes committed against the Serbs which are quite horrific, but probably also off topic - however my main point is what in all cases is recorded as the catalyst for external action and whether this gels with material facts of proportional importance taking place.

Ahh yes Dan here is the nutshell ,if and when the evil despot Assad is deposed ,could any one out there put their hands on their hearts and state quite plainly that those who will replace him in "the corridors of power" will be indefinably better, or will it just be out of the frying pan and into an even bigger fire?

[geriatrickid]

Turkey has an obligation to intervene. Will it?

The Arab League has an obligation to intervene? Will it?

The Iranians have their personnel in Iran supporting the Syrian regime.

Anyone willing to bet on a proxy war to send a message to Iran?

All it would take is Syria to launch an attack on Israel and the Iranians would defend Syria against the evil Israelites and kaboom, there we have it, a nice war in the ME and an excuse to get rid of Iran. The Gulf states would look the other way and hope for Irans demise. Egypt would look for an opportunity to regain its former leadership role in the ME and make noises, and maybe shake a fist. Turkey, might eventually be forced to act responsibly, provided the EU gave it money.

If Syria falls, watch for a new civil war in Lebanon.

Dominos anyone?

[folium]

Turkey has an obligation to intervene. Will it?

The Arab League has an obligation to intervene? Will it?

The Iranians have their personnel in Iran supporting the Syrian regime.

Anyone willing to bet on a proxy war to send a message to Iran?

All it would take is Syria to launch an attack on Israel and the Iranians would defend Syria against the evil Israelites and kaboom, there we have it, a nice war in the ME and an excuse to get rid of Iran. The Gulf states would look the other way and hope for Irans demise. Egypt would look for an opportunity to regain its former leadership role in the ME and make noises, and maybe shake a fist. Turkey, might eventually be forced to act responsibly, provided the EU gave it money.

If Syria falls, watch for a new civil war in Lebanon.

Dominos anyone?

Please don't take this personally but your ideas are quite extraordinary!

Why is Turkey "obliged to intervene"?

The Arab League has absolutely no "obligation to intervene" as one of its founding principles is respect for the sovereignity of is its member countries.

"A proxy war to send a message to Iran"...who being proxy to whom and how would this send a message to Tehran?

"Syria launch an attack on Israel", perhaps the Syrian military is a bit tied up fighting a civil war and butchering its own citizens art the moment, and thus might be in no shape for conventional warfare.

You then leap to Israel taking Iran out while the Arab world steps aside. And all this in a US Presidential election year. Whatever you had for breakfast please let me know where you got it from!

Lebanese civil war as a result of regime change in Syria? Probably quite the opposite as one of the drivers of unrest in Lebanon has been Syrian/Iranian occupation/interfering/funding/arming. An imploded Syria removes much of that potential at least in the short to medium term.

And finally Turkey is forced to "act responsibly" (does that mean invading Syria?) having been funded by the EU (when actually relations between the EU & Turkey are regrettably at an all time low).

"Dominos, anyone?" Presume you mean Eisenhower's 1954 Domino Theory, rather than the pizza chain! if not I'd love a thin crust 12inch Chicken & Bacon Carbonara, thanks.

If I am wrong please point me to the evidence that backs up your claims, you are never too old to learn!

Edited May 30, 2012 by folium

[Steely Dan]

Please don't take this personally but your ideas are quite extraordinary!

Why is Turkey "obliged to intervene"?

The Arab League has absolutely no "obligation to intervene" as one of its founding principles is respect for the sovereignity of is its member countries.

"A proxy war to send a message to Iran"...who being proxy to whom and how would this send a message to Tehran?

"Syria launch an attack on Israel", perhaps the Syrian military is a bit tied up fighting a civil war and butchering its own citizens art the moment, and thus might be in no shape for conventional warfare.

You then leap to Israel taking Iran out while the Arab world steps aside. And all this in a US Presidential election year. Whatever you had for breakfast please let me know where you got it from!

Lebanese civil war as a result of regime change in Syria? Probably quite the opposite as one of the drivers of unrest in Lebanon has been Syrian/Iranian occupation/interfering/funding/arming. An imploded Syria removes much of that potential at least in the short to medium term.

And finally Turkey is forced to "act responsibly" (does that mean invading Syria?) having been funded by the EU (when actually relations between the EU & Turkey are regrettably at an all time low).

"Dominos, anyone?" Presume you mean Eisenhower's 1954 Domino Theory, rather than the pizza chain! if not I'd love a thin crust 12inch Chicken & Bacon Carbonara, thanks.

If I am wrong please point me to the evidence that backs up your claims, you are never too old to learn!

Briefly, to keep some semblance of a connection to the original topic.

1) Turkey has a predominantly Sunni population and besides which has a rapidly growing refugee problem as a direct result of the mess in Syria.

2) The Arab league has never done a thing, but if we are getting closer to a Sunni-Shia religious war they may well become a vehicle for instigating this.

3) Proxy yes, we are the patsy proxy doing the bidding of Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

4) Of course if pushed Assad will attack Israel as a diversion, Saddam Hussein did exactly this.

5) Israel are not happy with the P5+1 talks with Iran and would probably jump at the chance of a broadening conflict to take out Iran's nuclear sights. Election year, well if the economy is down the tubes a war would be useful.

6) Turkey is a member of NATO, they may eventually have to climb down off the fence.

7) Capers and black olives please with Tuna and red onion.

[folium]

[briefly, to keep some semblance of a connection to the original topic.

1) Turkey has a predominantly Sunni population and besides which has a rapidly growing refugee problem as a direct result of the mess in Syria.

2) The Arab league has never done a thing, but if we are getting closer to a Sunni-Shia religious war they may well become a vehicle for instigating this.

3) Proxy yes, we are the patsy proxy doing the bidding of Saudi Arabia and the gulf states.

4) Of course if pushed Assad will attack Israel as a diversion, Saddam Hussein did exactly this.

5) Israel are not happy with the P5+1 talks with Iran and would probably jump at the chance of a broadening conflict to take out Iran's nuclear sights. Election year, well if the economy is down the tubes a war would be useful.

6) Turkey is a member of NATO, they may eventually have to climb down off the fence.

7) Capers and black olives please with Tuna and red onion.

1) Turkish demographics and the arrival of some 25,000 "guests" (term used by Turkey as keen they are short-term and not to be encouraged) does not mean Turkey has any "obligation" to intervene, even after the Houla massacre.

2) Arab league has done as much as it can given its limited powers and clout, its proposals have either been ignored or refused by Damascus and ideas that went on to the UN Security Council were vetoed by China & Russia. It certainly has no mandate or obligation to intervene. At best it could be a fig leaf for intervention with nations such as Qatar, Jordan etc doing the hard work. But again no obligation.

3) Not sure what "we" are doing that makes "us" a proxy for Saudi or GCC. The West is doing precious little directly and that is unlikely to change.

4) Saddam lobbed Scuds at Israel with mercifully little effect and the Israelis, under US pressure, did not rise to the bait. It would hopefully be a similar scenario this time round if Assad went down the same road, but even the Russians are probably advising against such a course and if the threat remains an internal one lashing out at Israel would be of little use.

5) Still can't see this as an opportunity for Israel to attack Iran's nuclear sites, hopefully wiser heads within the intelligence/military establishment within Israel have knocked this off the agenda anyway.

6) Not sure why NATO membership means Turkey has to get more involved. They stymied the northern front option for the 2003 invasion of Iraq (which ironically transformed Turkish-Syrian relations) and regrettably many NATO members in Europe have made fence sitting an art form!

7) Might change my order to a Dragon's Breath; fresh green chilli, anchovies & garlic. Really anti-social but delicious!

[koheesti]

Hopefully the deaths of these 108 people in Houla will also bring about a change in how the significant players in this act think and operate. But perhaps I am just being too optimistic and naive.

It's amazing, isn't it, that one vendor setting himself on fire in Tunisia brought about more change than the deaths of hundreds, or even thousands.

[folium]

Hopefully the deaths of these 108 people in Houla will also bring about a change in how the significant players in this act think and operate. But perhaps I am just being too optimistic and naive.

It's amazing, isn't it, that one vendor setting himself on fire in Tunisia brought about more change than the deaths of hundreds, or even thousands.

It's all about getting a message out to enough people and a message that is strong enough to mobilise people. Without this people do die in vain. The Second Congo War (1998-2003) caused probably in excess of 5 million deaths but most people have never heard of it and most who have don't give a rats. Why? Because there are no defining images of the horror.

The impact of the Houla massacre is in the footage (which has been in scarce supply in Syria) and a clear image of the death of innocent children. Similarly iconic images from Vietnam (VC executed in the street during Tet offensive, young girl with napalm burns, piles of corpses at My Lai etc), were just individuals in a casualty list going into the millions, but got the message over to enough people in a powerful enough fashion to make a difference.

Excellent piece from al-jazeera on this point in relation to Tunisia.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/01/2011126121815985483.html