Bangkok To Close Saphan Taksin Skytrain Station To Ease Bottleneck

[ding]

The stop ties in Chao Praya River mass transit in a very fortunate manner.

Is it April fools day?

Stuck on stupid comes to mind.

Idiotic.

Clear as mud article too.

[zakk9]

Maybe some genius could decide that the bottleneck isn't such a great inconvenience to passengers whereas closing Saphan Taksin would be.....and just leave everything as it is.

It's not a question of inconvenience but of capacity. Silom Line is already running at full capacity for parts of the day, and when the extension opens, there will be lots more passengers, causing longer and more unpredictable stops at each station and making synchronisation of trains through Saphan Taksin Station even more difficult with further delays as a result.

That may of course be solved by adding more cars to each train, but sooner or later, they will reach the maximum length of the platforms, which unfortunately aren't very long (6 cars?), unlike Hong Kong and Singapore where the trains have 12 cars.

On the other hand, if they keep adding extra charges like they've done on the Bearing extension, the number of passengers might not increase as rapidly as expected, since many people can't afford 5-700 baht extra per month to use the new stations and may have to spend endless hours on a bus navigating through the traffic jams instead. This is just a matter of choosing the appropriate poison.

Although I agree that closing Saphan Taksin Station is not a good solution, particularly long term, they seem to have painted themselves into a corner here, a result of bad planning from the outset.

[DP25]

I suppose you have the CAPEX then to devote to re-engineering an entire bridge, closing down traffic for gawd knows how long just so a bunch of tourists don't have to break a sweat to catch a train that theyll use once, perhaps twice on a visit to BKK. People speak of corruption but don't have problems wasting money in their own ways.

This station is used by people other than just tourists. The station is the entry point for people all along the river to access the train network and vice versa. Adding a 1km walk between the boat and train networks is a significant break in Bangkok's mass transit network.

[Lakegeneve]

One issue I didn't mention yesterday is that there will be a temporary problem when the first phase of the new ext to Bang Wah (Phetkasem opens). Originally, the 5.3km 4 stations (S9-S12) ext from WWY to Bang Wah was due to open 5 Dec 2012 (though most likely the contractor would not have met this deadline).

After last years floods delayed works this was changed to S9 & S10 opening 5 Dec 12, and S11 & S 12 opening 12 August 2013 - most likely both deadlines will blow out a little though there are penalties for the contractor if it is completed late. However, as no turn out was planned to be installed between S10 and S11 it means that a shuttle system will need to be used until the full extension opens in 2013. (I am currently arguing that a turn out should be installed to negate this problem). Not an ideal option from an operational and timetabling viewpoint by any means.

It would be operate similar to the following;

(Credit to Khun mosdelta for the image.)

Thus, you'll have delays at ST station AND potential delays at S8. This is even before the 5 new sets of 4 car rolling stock are delivered in 2013, they were ordered to cater for this extension. (In some ways that the whole ext is not opening at the end of 2012 is a slight bonus as the current 12 4 car sets would not have coped.)

[pauljones]

I suppose you have the CAPEX then to devote to re-engineering an entire bridge, closing down traffic for gawd knows how long just so a bunch of tourists don't have to break a sweat to catch a train that theyll use once, perhaps twice on a visit to BKK. People speak of corruption but don't have problems wasting money in their own ways.

This station is used by people other than just tourists. The station is the entry point for people all along the river to access the train network and vice versa. Adding a 1km walk between the boat and train networks is a significant break in Bangkok's mass transit network.

Agreed.

There is probably 100 Thais for every tourist that uses the river transport.

A dumb idea to relocate that super busy station.

Most likely some transport mafia war behind the action.

[samran]

I suppose you have the CAPEX then to devote to re-engineering an entire bridge, closing down traffic for gawd knows how long just so a bunch of tourists don't have to break a sweat to catch a train that theyll use once, perhaps twice on a visit to BKK. People speak of corruption but don't have problems wasting money in their own ways.

This station is used by people other than just tourists. The station is the entry point for people all along the river to access the train network and vice versa. Adding a 1km walk between the boat and train networks is a significant break in Bangkok's mass transit network.

Agreed.

There is probably 100 Thais for every tourist that uses the river transport.

A dumb idea to relocate that super busy station.

Most likely some transport mafia war behind the action.

And there are probably another 1000 passengers elsewhere for every 'Sapan Taksin' person who will benefit from a more efficient rail line.

I'm not an engineer, and have often wondered why they just didn't make the station into a double platformed with duplicated rail. So I went to have a look, and the station if expanded, woud extend out above the road, leaving no clearance. At the point where the station currently is, the bridge has already started rising to cross the river:

So you have two options if you want to keep Sapan Taksin station I guess:

1) Widen the station, at the same time closing off one to two lanes in each direction on the bridge.

2) Raise the track with its own higher bridge, over the river, with a combined station somewhere near the bridge.

Both stupidly expensive one would have thought.

As for the skywalks, I don't see how they are a hardship. When done well, as the are in the Ratchaprasong district, people are happy to walk. What makes walking unpleasant in Bangkok is not really the heat, but rather the potholed obstacle course one faces when doing for a stroll.

Edited June 2, 2012 by samran

[gand]

I suppose you have the CAPEX then to devote to re-engineering an entire bridge, closing down traffic for gawd knows how long just so a bunch of tourists don't have to break a sweat to catch a train that theyll use once, perhaps twice on a visit to BKK. People speak of corruption but don't have problems wasting money in their own ways.

This station is used by people other than just tourists. The station is the entry point for people all along the river to access the train network and vice versa. Adding a 1km walk between the boat and train networks is a significant break in Bangkok's mass transit network.

Agreed.

There is probably 100 Thais for every tourist that uses the river transport.

A dumb idea to relocate that super busy station.

Most likely some transport mafia war behind the action.

And there are probably another 1000 passengers elsewhere for every 'Sapan Taksin' person who will benefit from a more efficient rail line.

I'm not an engineer, and have often wondered why they just didn't make the station into a double platformed with duplicated rail. So I went to have a look, and the station if expanded, woud extend out above the road, leaving no clearance. At the point where the station currently is, the bridge has already started rising to cross the river:

So you have two options if you want to keep Sapan Taksin station I guess:

1) Widen the station, at the same time closing off one to two lanes in each direction on the bridge.

2) Raise the track with its own higher bridge, over the river, with a combined station somewhere near the bridge.

Both stupidly expensive one would have thought.

As for the skywalks, I don't see how they are a hardship. When done well, as the are in the Ratchaprasong district, people are happy to walk. What makes walking unpleasant in Bangkok is not really the heat, but rather the potholed obstacle course one faces when doing for a stroll.

Get above the vehicle exhausts and the street vendors, wish the whole length of the BTS had the sky walks.

[canopy]

The Governor stated that around 4,000 people will be affected by the change.

Not true. There are a lot of tourists that use this station due to the hotels there and ones going to the river transport. If just 10% of the riders at that station are tourists then perhaps 100,000 tourists a year will be affected. Over just 5 years a half a million tourists could be effected. Does the TAT know about this?

[thetravelbee]

The number of 4,000 commuters stated by this article is grossly underestimated. The closing down of ST BTS station to make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for the daily river/BTS commuters, the million of tourists visiting Thailand every year and residing in the nearby hotels (Shangrila, Center point, Ramada, Chatrium, Mariott Resort and SPA, Hilton, Sheraton, Oriental, Peninsula etc...) as well as for the many residents of the area living in the apartment buildings on the river, (76 storey building THE RIVER, BAAN SATHORN CHAOPRAYA only to name a couple, etc...). The bottleneck is not so bad and certainly does not justify the closing of such a strategic location for this station. I am not sure what is more incovenient, having to walk 700 meters in the heat and humidity, with packs and shopping bags or to wait a couple of minutes inside a BTS car, with the A/C on, and be able to walk straight to your commuting means or hotel? Before complaining all the time about everything, people be careful what you wish for..

May be they could think of constructing the station on the other side of the bridge. I believe, although not optimal, this should cause infinitely less incovenience for everyone, than removing the station altogether..Adjustments will obviousely have to be made for the ST Central Pier to serve the other side of the river instead and allow more frequent crossing boats? Is it so impossible?

[samran]

The number of 4,000 commuters stated by this article is grossly underestimated. The closing down of ST BTS station to make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for the daily river/BTS commuters, the million of tourists visiting Thailand every year and residing in the nearby hotels (Shangrila, Center point, Ramada, Chatrium, Mariott Resort and SPA, Hilton, Sheraton, Oriental, Peninsula etc...) as well as for the many residents of the area living in the apartment buildings on the river, (76 storey building THE RIVER, BAAN SATHORN CHAOPRAYA only to name a couple, etc...). The bottleneck is not so bad and certainly does not justify the closing of such a strategic location for this station. I am not sure what is more incovenient, having to walk 700 meters in the heat and humidity, with packs and shopping bags or to wait a couple of minutes inside a BTS car, with the A/C on, and be able to walk straight to your commuting means or hotel? Before complaining all the time about everything, people be careful what you wish for..

May be they could think of constructing the station on the other side of the bridge. I believe, although not optimal, this should cause infinitely less incovenience for everyone, than removing the station altogether..Adjustments will obviousely have to be made for the ST Central Pier to serve the other side of the river instead and allow more frequent crossing boats? Is it so impossible?

Dunno,

Why don't you build a DCF model and take it down to city hall. See what they say?

[rixalex]

The closing down of ST BTS station to make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for the daily river/BTS commuters, the million of tourists visiting Thailand every year and residing in the nearby hotels

The not closing down of ST BTS station to not make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for many many more.

May be they could think of constructing the station on the other side of the bridge. I believe, although not optimal, this should cause infinitely less incovenience for everyone, than removing the station altogether..Adjustments will obviousely have to be made for the ST Central Pier to serve the other side of the river instead and allow more frequent crossing boats? Is it so impossible?

A good idea i agree.

[pauljones]

I think the river needs it's own station. Surasak station will be jammed. Think ahead 10 or 20 years.

Build a new station on the opposite side of the river with the moving walkway crossing the river back to Saphan Taksin area.

Reorganize the river ferries with a nice new dock over there and the old river ferry station can service the hotel boats and tourists. Why not include a nice new marina for pleasure craft?

Edited June 3, 2012 by pauljones

[samran]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

[pauljones]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Probably. Could be a landmark if done well.

I think it imperative a station stays on the riverside.

[rixalex]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Probably. Could be a landmark if done well.

I think it imperative a station stays on the riverside.

I think you missed the point.

[DP25]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Looking on google maps it looks like it'd be less than 200 meters to cross the river there. It's not even close to as far as Surasak Station is from the river. There is also a ferry crossing right at the bridge so you wouldn't have to walk if you don't want to. Haven't been on a river crossing ferry for a while but I think it's like 2 baht.

Edited June 3, 2012 by DP25

[pauljones]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Probably. Could be a landmark if done well.

I think it imperative a station stays on the riverside.

I think you missed the point.

No. My point is let's have a riverside station instead if jamming people into Surasak.

[rixalex]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Probably. Could be a landmark if done well.

I think it imperative a station stays on the riverside.

I think you missed the point.

No. My point is let's have a riverside station instead if jamming people into Surasak.

I think the issue with Surasak isn't to do with jamming, but rather to do with distance. If DP25 is right with concerns the relatively proximity of a station, were it built, on the other side of the river, then i agree, that would be a good idea.

What isn't a good idea, in fact was is a plain idiotic idea, is to keep the bottleneck and detrimentally affect the efficiency of the entire network, for the sake of one station.

[canopy]

I am not sure what is more incovenient, having to walk 700 meters in the heat and humidity, with packs and shopping bags

Yet another deceptive claim from this news piece. The reality is people have to walk a certain distance to get to the station. Adding an additional 700 meters means most will have to walk over a kilometer--twice! Having to walk 2 or 3 kilometers just to step onto a train will be a deterrent because at some point that becomes just too long, too hot, and too difficult.

My vote is close the extension. Make SP the end of the line just like before when the sky train wasn't so crowded, more speedy and pleasant to ride.

[zakk9]

My vote is close the extension. Make SP the end of the line just like before when the sky train wasn't so crowded, more speedy and pleasant to ride.

I'm afraid you have somehow missed the point with a public transport system. It's supposed to carry as many people as possible to their destination in a secure, efficient and reasonably cheap manner, not cater for you personal needs for a pleasant ride

[thetravelbee]

The closing down of ST BTS station to make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for the daily river/BTS commuters, the million of tourists visiting Thailand every year and residing in the nearby hotels

The not closing down of ST BTS station to not make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for many many more.

May be they could think of constructing the station on the other side of the bridge. I believe, although not optimal, this should cause infinitely less incovenience for everyone, than removing the station altogether..Adjustments will obviousely have to be made for the ST Central Pier to serve the other side of the river instead and allow more frequent crossing boats? Is it so impossible?

A good idea i agree.

The not closing down of ST BTS station to not make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for many many more.

According to you what sort of inconvenience would this cause to the "many others" that do not use the ST BTS Station on a daily basis. I am really having a hard time understanding the logic. They are on the BTS car and have to wait a couple of minutes (MAX as most of the times it is about 30 to 40 sec) to let another train discharge/embark the passengers at ST. It this REALLY that much of an inconvenience that the station should be eliminated altogether? Seriousely? Besides, my point was that the 4,000 daily users disrupted figure stated in the article is ridiculously low.

I use the ST BTS station daily sometimes a couple of times a day. Off rush hours, this so called inconvenience is hardly noticeble. Of course with the extention of the line, this may change and get worse over time. Still, I believe there MUST be a better way to address this issue.

You seem to believe the building of the station accross the river is a better otption. Well so do I. And may be there are yet other alternative solutions more agreable to the majority of users of the Silom line that to eliminate the "river" station altogether. By the way, have you tried the Sukhumvit line lately? With the extention of that line + the connection to the airport line, the cars are packed literally all day long, rush hours or not.

It is a fact that Bangkok is a megalopoly and one has to come to terms with high density population. The answer to this is certainly not reduce services but surely to extend, expand and improve the already existing ones.

By the way, responding to another comment received from another member, the river bed is fortunately not 700 mt wide. I also mentioned more frequent river crossing boats allowing more choice and less waiting to those who do not like to walk much, or cannot because of age or other limitation in their motion (illness, physical impairment etc..).

Edited June 3, 2012 by thetravelbee

[pauljones]

300m across the river to ST station.

900m to Surasak from ST station.

According to Google Maps.

[whybother]

A new station across the other side of the bridge with a walkway back.

How far would that be? I reckon about 700 odd metres?

Looking on google maps it looks like it'd be less than 200 meters to cross the river there. It's not even close to as far as Surasak Station is from the river. There is also a ferry crossing right at the bridge so you wouldn't have to walk if you don't want to. Haven't been on a river crossing ferry for a while but I think it's like 2 baht.

They would have the same issue on the other side of the river with fitting two lines with platforms. There is simply no space between the roadway to have a proper station ... on either side of the river.

Have a look at google maps street view and you can see how little space there is to put an extra track and platform.

There would be two possible solutions to keep the station on the river: 1) move the road bridge further out to be able to fit the full station, or 2) put one line over the other the same way they have done at Siam.

Neither would be easy or cheap.

[samran]

300m across the river to ST station.

900m to Surasak from ST station.

According to Google Maps.

Sure, my 700m estimate was off.

But it comes back to this: you build a station on the other side of the river, fine in theory, but it is only 800m or so from the next station on moving away from the city. Perhaps a bit close? And as WhyBother has pointed out, you are still dealing with the bridge decending on the other side, so you are faced with the same clearance problems on the Thonburi side...pushing the site for a 'proper' station even further away from the river, and closer to the next one.

If the skywalk is the only option, and people think it is going to be too much of a hardship, then they just should enclose it and aircondition it. Seems like a sensible comprimise to building a whole new piece of infrastructure.

Edited June 3, 2012 by samran

[whybother]

300m across the river to ST station.

900m to Surasak from ST station.

According to Google Maps.

But is there enough space for a station across the river?

[rixalex]

The not closing down of ST BTS station to not make it a two tracks route will represent an enormous incovenience for many many more.

According to you what sort of inconvenience would this cause to the "many others" that do not use the ST BTS Station on a daily basis. I am really having a hard time understanding the logic.

The entire system is being restricted in performance to cater for this one track station. What is to understand?

If there is a way of keeping it or building a new one on the other side, then great, but first and foremost, there has to be two tracks for the sake of the entire system.

[meand]

The Governor stated that around 4,000 people will be affected by the change.

Not true. There are a lot of tourists that use this station due to the hotels there and ones going to the river transport. If just 10% of the riders at that station are tourists then perhaps 100,000 tourists a year will be affected. Over just 5 years a half a million tourists could be effected. Does the TAT know about this?

Actual experience back this up. I see a LOT of the tourists on BTS after sala daeng get off at saphan taksin, like almost all.

[pauljones]

300m across the river to ST station.

900m to Surasak from ST station.

According to Google Maps.

But is there enough space for a station across the river?

Good question.

I supposed its all been hashed out and Surasak is the best option.

Or there are politics/corruption behind the move.

[JayBangkok]

300m across the river to ST station.

900m to Surasak from ST station.

According to Google Maps.

But is there enough space for a station across the river?

There is plenty of room although that area is currently a public park.

The original plan was to build the first station on the Thonburi side on Charoen Nakorn Road.

Somewhere down the line it was obvious that more money could be made by buying up land on Krung Thonburi Road and the plans got changed.

[pauljones]

Could the underground be extended to Saphan Taksin I wonder? That would be some relief for Suarsak station and the masses that use river transport.