Bangkok To Close Saphan Taksin Skytrain Station To Ease Bottleneck

[rixalex]

Good question.

I supposed its all been hashed out and Surasak is the best option.

Or there are politics/corruption behind the move.

There's politics/corruption behind every move. Doesn't always of course mean the decision is a bad one. If they were keeping the one track station at the cost of all the other stations throughout the whole network, there would be politics / corruption behind that move, and it would be a far sillier decision than what we have proposed and on the table at the moment, which isn't perfect and upsets some people, but could be much worse. And that is the level our expectations should be set at. Don't expect or hope that you'll ever be saying "that's a fantastic idea". Hope that you can say "well it could be worse".

[pauljones]

Could there be a software solution that could get the timing right to allow for this one bottleneck?

[meand]

Could there be a software solution that could get the timing right to allow for this one bottleneck?

If they were to do that they'd have to change the protocol for time to close the doors when loading of course. Those times vary greatly under the current system -- it seems to go by if there are people coming or not.

[planr]

To answer a few questions (sorry, the multi-quote function isn't working).

@thetravelbee - You're right that the 4,000 pax / day at Taksin station is incorrect. The real number (in 2010) was about 12,000 per day if you divide total boardings / alightings at the station of 4,415,809 by 365. You're also correct that a fair number of tourists who stay at the high-end hotels on the river no doubt find the current station location convenient. However, you're incorrect about people living in condos like The River, Baan Sathorn ChaoPhraya etc being heavy users of the station. Not only are these condos on the Thonburi side of the river, making BTS access not entirely easy, they are also VERY high end and those who can afford to buy them almost certain use cars as their primary mode of transport.

Link to 2010 transport stats - http://office.bangkok.go.th/pipd/07Stat(Th)/Stat(th)53/Stat(th)53/02_traffic/02_Traffic.pdf

@pauljones - According to the head of operations for BTS there are two ways to increase capacity on the Silom line at present. The first is to demolish the station at Taksin as discussed in this thread while the second is to make the current 4-car trainsets 6-car trainsets. At present, the line is running at operational capacity in the sense that headways (the time in between trains) cannot be further reduced without compromising safety. As such, the first solution is the only way to resolve this operational issue, and is the best in terms of the long-term capacity and operations of the line.

[JayBangkok]

To answer a few questions (sorry, the multi-quote function isn't working).

@thetravelbee - You're right that the 4,000 pax / day at Taksin station is incorrect. The real number (in 2010) was about 12,000 per day if you divide total boardings / alightings at the station of 4,415,809 by 365. You're also correct that a fair number of tourists who stay at the high-end hotels on the river no doubt find the current station location convenient. However, you're incorrect about people living in condos like The River, Baan Sathorn ChaoPhraya etc being heavy users of the station. Not only are these condos on the Thonburi side of the river, making BTS access not entirely easy, they are also VERY high end and those who can afford to buy them almost certain use cars as their primary mode of transport.

Link to 2010 transport stats - http://office.bangko.../pipd/07Stat(Th)/Stat(th)53/Stat(th)53/02_traffic/02_Traffic.pdf

@pauljones - According to the head of operations for BTS there are two ways to increase capacity on the Silom line at present. The first is to demolish the station at Taksin as discussed in this thread while the second is to make the current 4-car trainsets 6-car trainsets. At present, the line is running at operational capacity in the sense that headways (the time in between trains) cannot be further reduced without compromising safety. As such, the first solution is the only way to resolve this operational issue, and is the best in terms of the long-term capacity and operations of the line.

Nobody lives in The River yet as it is nowhere near finished.

The other condos are mostly high end but they all have boats (or shared boats) that go across to Sathorn Pier so passengers can get the BTS.

[tw25rw]

Having had a better look at the overhead photos, I realise now that the road hugs the railway closely for some distance on either side and there really is no roon for a conventional station unless they were to elevate to track even more for this one station for one or both lines, as at Siam. Apparently, they decided not to.

[gand]

There is room enough where they could have built the station half the thickness on both sides of the tracks and it would have functioned normally.

[planr]

Nobody lives in The River yet as it is nowhere near finished.

The other condos are mostly high end but they all have boats (or shared boats) that go across to Sathorn Pier so passengers can get the BTS.

Whether or not The River is finished is irrelevant, there are about 800 units of varying size. If you assume that they all contain an "average" Bangkok household (2.8 people per the 2010 census), then, if fully occupied year-round, will house about 2,200 people. As of last week, 76% of the units had been sold, so lets knock that down to 1,600. Figure in the fact that many people who have bought in are either part-time foreign residents (which is the a primary target market of this particular project), or speculators, I would guess that fewer than 1,000 people will live in this project at any given time. Sure there is a "podium" mall at the ground level, but really, do you think it will be a destination for anyone who does not live in the area? So how many people do you think will use a ferry to connect to Taksin, even if it stays open? A few hundred maybe?Same deal for the ferries that serve the other condos. How well used are they in reality? As others have pointed out, the station itself is not particularly important to the system as a whole, accounting for a little more than 3% of traffic. The amount of traffic that will be drawn to the system when the extension opens next year will more than make up for this loss, by several times, which is and should be the ultimate goal of both the BMA and BTS in both providing a public service and generating revenue respectively. And if you really want to live by the river and have a good transit connection, I suggest you start looking at where the Blue Line Extension will cross the river in 2016 or so (already under construction).

[Baloo22]

More trains running more frequently as in every 3 min is no different than adding more cars and running every 6 min, same throughput.

Don't think it works like this. You also need to add the costs of extending the plattforms at each station.

All BTS and MRT stations are already built for 6 cars. The extra cost for more frequent trains would be the extra drivers.

I'm not a train engineer but I believe that adding more cars to a train makes it heavier. Then it requires more time to get up to speed leaving a station and also more time stopping at the next station. I suspect that it's a little more complicated issue than just adding cars to certain trains and the car capacity of the stations.

[tw25rw]

There is room enough where they could have built the station half the thickness on both sides of the tracks and it would have functioned normally.

Looking at photos, the back of the plaform is very close to the road. So if most of that was removed, the remaining platform would only be a few feet deep. This would be duplicated on the other side. I suppose it would work, but the station would be architecturally very different to the rest. Assumiing the passenger flow wasn't even in both directions during rush hours, there would be an over crowding problem on the smaller platforms.

With the walkways to Surasak stretching out the crowds between river boats and the increased train frequency availed by the removed bottleneck, oer crowding at Surasak should be avoidable. I can see why that option is preferred by the operators if not the passengers..

[tw25rw]

More trains running more frequently as in every 3 min is no different than adding more cars and running every 6 min, same throughput.

Don't think it works like this. You also need to add the costs of extending the plattforms at each station.

All BTS and MRT stations are already built for 6 cars. The extra cost for more frequent trains would be the extra drivers.

I'm not a train engineer but I believe that adding more cars to a train makes it heavier. Then it requires more time to get up to speed leaving a station and also more time stopping at the next station. I suspect that it's a little more complicated issue than just adding cars to certain trains and the car capacity of the stations.

I think adding an extra motor car would alleviate that.

The real bottleneck that they can't get round is the station plus a length of track which is shared by 2 way traffic which has to allow certain safe distances etc. The speed of the trains is something they could work on.

One thing I do wonder about is why they only laid one track over the bridge with the junction on the far side. If they put the points just outside the station and put down 2 lines over the bridge, trains could wait much nearer the station.

[whybother]

I think adding an extra motor car would alleviate that.

The real bottleneck that they can't get round is the station plus a length of track which is shared by 2 way traffic which has to allow certain safe distances etc. The speed of the trains is something they could work on.

One thing I do wonder about is why they only laid one track over the bridge with the junction on the far side. If they put the points just outside the station and put down 2 lines over the bridge, trains could wait much nearer the station.

There are 2 tracks across the bridge. The only place that there isn't 2 tracks is where the platform is.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Maestro
Deleted troll comment about a shoe.

[planr]

More trains running more frequently as in every 3 min is no different than adding more cars and running every 6 min, same throughput.

Don't think it works like this. You also need to add the costs of extending the plattforms at each station.

All BTS and MRT stations are already built for 6 cars. The extra cost for more frequent trains would be the extra drivers.

I'm not a train engineer but I believe that adding more cars to a train makes it heavier. Then it requires more time to get up to speed leaving a station and also more time stopping at the next station. I suspect that it's a little more complicated issue than just adding cars to certain trains and the car capacity of the stations.

From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant. What is relevant is that a 6-car train will has more access points (doors) and accommodates more people. The more people you have boarding / alighting across more entry points, the longer amount of time the train has to spend at each station (known as dwell time), which does slow things down a little overall.

[whybother]

From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant. What is relevant is that a 6-car train will has more access points (doors) and accommodates more people. The more people you have boarding / alighting across more entry points, the longer amount of time the train has to spend at each station (known as dwell time), which does slow things down a little overall.

Except having more doors will mean passengers will be spread out more, so less people entering / exiting each door and less time taken.

[meand]

"From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant."

I can't force myself to agree with this. To me it is almost like saying "to every action there is an unequal and similar reaction"

[Baloo22]

I am not trying to make light of the difficulties that the closure of this BTS station may cause some people in Bangkok but let's have some contrast here. Bangkokians have an underground rail system, the MRT. They have an above ground Sky Train, the BTS system. And they have an intra-city bus system that actually transports people.

I currently am located in the city of Chiang Mai just off of Huay Kaew Road. There is no intra-city train system, above or below ground, in Chiang Mai. In about a 1000 meter stretch of Huay Kaew Road (NW corner of the Old City to intersection of Nimmanhaemin Road) there are about six of these nice roofed bus stops. See the pic.

Only one small problem with them. There is no busses that stop at them! I was not here when the attempt at a intra-city bus system went down the craphole. I understand that the official explanation was something along th lines of "it proved not to be economically viable". From talking to several expats that were here, the real reasons was that the baht-bus/tuk-tuk drivers did not want it, conducted various "protest" blockades, etc, etc. And that was the end of that!

Disclaimer: I have been told by another board member that a small remnant still exists taking some people from the airport area down south to a place called Hang Dong.

[Lakegeneve]

All BTS and MRT stations are already built for 6 cars. The extra cost for more frequent trains would be the extra drivers.

I'm not a train engineer but I believe that adding more cars to a train makes it heavier. Then it requires more time to get up to speed leaving a station and also more time stopping at the next station. I suspect that it's a little more complicated issue than just adding cars to certain trains and the car capacity of the stations.

From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant. What is relevant is that a 6-car train will has more access points (doors) and accommodates more people. The more people you have boarding / alighting across more entry points, the longer amount of time the train has to spend at each station (known as dwell time), which does slow things down a little overall.

This is completely true and pertinent. Look at some of the rolling stock on the Tokyo system suburban lines, 6 doors per car. Let me say that again, 6 doors per car! If you are running a 10 or 11 car train (such as the Circle Line/Yamanote) that is over 60 doors per train. The reason why is obvious, it is needed. Catch one during rush hour and you'll really appreciate how well is works.

[rixalex]

I am not trying to make light of the difficulties that the closure of this BTS station may cause some people in Bangkok but let's have some contrast here. Bangkokians have an underground rail system, the MRT. They have an above ground Sky Train, the BTS system. And they have an intra-city bus system that actually transports people.

I currently am located in the city of Chiang Mai just off of Huay Kaew Road. There is no intra-city train system, above or below ground, in Chiang Mai. In about a 1000 meter stretch of Huay Kaew Road (NW corner of the Old City to intersection of Nimmanhaemin Road) there are about six of these nice roofed bus stops. See the pic.

Only one small problem with them. There is no busses that stop at them! I was not here when the attempt at a intra-city bus system went down the craphole. I understand that the official explanation was something along th lines of "it proved not to be economically viable". From talking to several expats that were here, the real reasons was that the baht-bus/tuk-tuk drivers did not want it, conducted various "protest" blockades, etc, etc. And that was the end of that!

Disclaimer: I have been told by another board member that a small remnant still exists taking some people from the airport area down south to a place called Hang Dong.

I feel for the poor lack of decent transport you suffer, and can understand why those outside of Bangkok must feel some degree of annoyance at the way resources are focused so much on the capital, but at the end of the day, the transport projects in Bangkok are not done out of the goodness of anyone's heart, or done out of some altruistic desire to improve the lives of Bangkokians, they are done purely and simply to make money. If the same sort of projects in Chaing Mai could offer the same sort of returns, you can be sure they would be building them right now. I guess in time things will change and Chaing Mai will eventually end up with the same sort of transport facilities as Bangkok. Whether that is in our life times though.... who knows?

[Lakegeneve]

I am not trying to make light of the difficulties that the closure of this BTS station may cause some people in Bangkok but let's have some contrast here. Bangkokians have an underground rail system, the MRT. They have an above ground Sky Train, the BTS system. And they have an intra-city bus system that actually transports people.

I currently am located in the city of Chiang Mai just off of Huay Kaew Road. There is no intra-city train system, above or below ground, in Chiang Mai. In about a 1000 meter stretch of Huay Kaew Road (NW corner of the Old City to intersection of Nimmanhaemin Road) there are about six of these nice roofed bus stops. See the pic.

Only one small problem with them. There is no busses that stop at them! I was not here when the attempt at a intra-city bus system went down the craphole. I understand that the official explanation was something along th lines of "it proved not to be economically viable". From talking to several expats that were here, the real reasons was that the baht-bus/tuk-tuk drivers did not want it, conducted various "protest" blockades, etc, etc. And that was the end of that!

Disclaimer: I have been told by another board member that a small remnant still exists taking some people from the airport area down south to a place called Hang Dong.

Yes Chiang Mai has tried buses, twice now, but a combo of poor planning & implementation and vested transport interests , as you rightly mention, meant that both attempts went no where fast. There still is that one service operating last time I was there. There have been previous plans for a light rail system, more recently a BRT. Chiang Mai is perfect for the former. You can read more on the history of the buses, mass transit plans etc at http://2bangkok.com/forum/showthread.php?2753-Chiangmai-CMU-Electrics The opportunity has been there to implement mass transit but not the political will.

The most obvious thing to state is that greater Chiang Mai is only around 200 000 people where as greate Bangkok is over 10m. Obviously, Bangkok needs mass transit as a priority to effectively function and in fact it is 20-30 yrs behind where it should be given the delays in implementing mass transit plans. (Just see what HK did in 2 decades or Delhi in more recent times over the last decade)

[whybother]

The most obvious thing to state is that greater Chiang Mai is only around 200 000 people where as greate Bangkok is over 10m. Obviously, Bangkok needs mass transit as a priority to effectively function and in fact it is 20-30 yrs behind where it should be given the delays in implementing mass transit plans. (Just see what HK did in 2 decades or Delhi in more recent times over the last decade)

According to Wiki, the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people. The city area has only 150K. The province has 1.6 million people.

[JayBangkok]

The most obvious thing to state is that greater Chiang Mai is only around 200 000 people where as greate Bangkok is over 10m. Obviously, Bangkok needs mass transit as a priority to effectively function and in fact it is 20-30 yrs behind where it should be given the delays in implementing mass transit plans. (Just see what HK did in 2 decades or Delhi in more recent times over the last decade)

According to Wiki, the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people. The city area has only 150K. The province has 1.6 million people.

+1

My friends wife had a little boy this morning

[Lakegeneve]

The most obvious thing to state is that greater Chiang Mai is only around 200 000 people where as greate Bangkok is over 10m. Obviously, Bangkok needs mass transit as a priority to effectively function and in fact it is 20-30 yrs behind where it should be given the delays in implementing mass transit plans. (Just see what HK did in 2 decades or Delhi in more recent times over the last decade)

According to Wiki, the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people. The city area has only 150K. The province has 1.6 million people.

I lived in CM decades ago and travel there numerous times every year so I feel some familiarity with the city - don't live there though.

If "the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people" then either;

- the metro are is defined in very broad geographical terms including towns 40-50kms away, OR

- every one has suddenly had a few children (as Jay's friends wife did - congrats) and that number includes every ghost and soi dog in CM, OR

- the number has been inflated for funding purposes.

I can't debate official govt stats, if that is what that figure is derived from. I love to know where it came from and also hear someone living in CM state that they agree there are 1 m people in metro CM. At 200-300k CM needs mass transit. At 1m pop it is well overdue and desperate!

[tw25rw]

"From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant."

I can't force myself to agree with this. To me it is almost like saying "to every action there is an unequal and similar reaction"

But if you add more cars, at least 1 will be a motor car sharing the load. Plus the existing cars aren't necessarily working to their limit when accellerating.

[whybother]

I lived in CM decades ago and travel there numerous times every year so I feel some familiarity with the city - don't live there though.

If "the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people" then either;

- the metro are is defined in very broad geographical terms including towns 40-50kms away, OR

- every one has suddenly had a few children (as Jay's friends wife did - congrats) and that number includes every ghost and soi dog in CM, OR

- the number has been inflated for funding purposes.

I can't debate official govt stats, if that is what that figure is derived from. I love to know where it came from and also hear someone living in CM state that they agree there are 1 m people in metro CM. At 200-300k CM needs mass transit. At 1m pop it is well overdue and desperate!

I've been there a couple of times, but I don't know Chiang Mai. The following table will probably be understood by the locals ...

Chiang Mai Metropolitan Area

District name Area Population (2008) Density

Ban Thi, Lamphun Province 122.45 17,614 143.85

Doi Saket 671.30 66,101 98.74

Hang Dong 277.10 76,059 274.48

Mae Rim 443.60 85,968 193.80

Mueang Chiang Mai 154.2 369,460 1,768.11

Mueang Lamphun, Lamphun Province 479.80 142,881 297.79

San Kam Phaeng 197.83 76,424 386.31

San Pa Tong 178.18 75,907 426.01

San Sai 285.02 112,921 396.19

Saraphi 97.45 76,138 781.03

Total 2,905.13 1,099,473 378.46

http://en.wikipedia....tropolitan_Area

Edited June 8, 2012 by whybother

[meand]

"From an operational standpoint, the "weight" of the trains themselves is basically irrelevant."

I can't force myself to agree with this. To me it is almost like saying "to every action there is an unequal and similar reaction"

But if you add more cars, at least 1 will be a motor car sharing the load. Plus the existing cars aren't necessarily working to their limit when accellerating.

Yeah, it does make sense, esp since the Japanese designed it (I think ).

[Screws]

May be they could think of constructing the station on the other side of the bridge. I believe, although not optimal, this should cause infinitely less incovenience for everyone, than removing the station altogether..Adjustments will obviousely have to be made for the ST Central Pier to serve the other side of the river instead and allow more frequent crossing boats? Is it so impossible?

Good idea. Then put the walkway across the river. Could build station first, then close ST. Nice walk across the river.

BUT - does city hall ever listen to f'lungs? Or anybody? I think that any suggestion made by others just goes into the 'possible solutions that cannot be considered or else we will lose face' or a similarly titled circular filing cabinet.

Would love to be shown wrong.

[Razzler1973]

I like the build a station across the bridge idea too with the walkway.

Even if they build the walkway they seem to plan it'll be like the one at Central in Hong Kong when you get off the ferry. Can go for ages on that.

If the station was always seen as temporary as people are saying when orginally built was this always their solution from the beginning? Tear down the station?

Is there really, really no room a few hundred metres away where they could build the station whilst knocking down the existing station and allowing two lines to go through? I'd assume this is the first thing people thought of but ... you never know

[Screws]

How far east of the current ST station would a new station have to be, to have sufficient clearance over the road? This station could be built before the existing one is demolished -

[whybother]

How far east of the current ST station would a new station have to be, to have sufficient clearance over the road? This station could be built before the existing one is demolished -

It would need to be 200-300 metres back from where it is. The same problem on the other side. There is no room near the river to have a station.

Sent from my shoe phone

Edited July 31, 2012 by Maestro
Deleted troll comment about a shoe.

[Lakegeneve]

I lived in CM decades ago and travel there numerous times every year so I feel some familiarity with the city - don't live there though.

If "the metropolitan area of Chiang Mai has about 1 million people" then either;

- the metro are is defined in very broad geographical terms including towns 40-50kms away, OR

- every one has suddenly had a few children (as Jay's friends wife did - congrats) and that number includes every ghost and soi dog in CM, OR

- the number has been inflated for funding purposes.

I can't debate official govt stats, if that is what that figure is derived from. I love to know where it came from and also hear someone living in CM state that they agree there are 1 m people in metro CM. At 200-300k CM needs mass transit. At 1m pop it is well overdue and desperate!

I've been there a couple of times, but I don't know Chiang Mai. The following table will probably be understood by the locals ...

Chiang Mai Metropolitan Area

District name Area Population (2008) Density

Ban Thi, Lamphun Province 122.45 17,614 143.85

Doi Saket 671.30 66,101 98.74

Hang Dong 277.10 76,059 274.48

Mae Rim 443.60 85,968 193.80

Mueang Chiang Mai 154.2 369,460 1,768.11

Mueang Lamphun, Lamphun Province 479.80 142,881 297.79

San Kam Phaeng 197.83 76,424 386.31

San Pa Tong 178.18 75,907 426.01

San Sai 285.02 112,921 396.19

Saraphi 97.45 76,138 781.03

Total 2,905.13 1,099,473 378.46

http://en.wikipedia....tropolitan_Area

Sorry WB but I missed your reply. This is a very generous administrative view of the CM metro area and another reason why one should not rely entirely on one source.

I can tell you for sure that Doi Saket and definitely San Pa Tong are not considered part of CM city. The fact that Lamphun is listed is laughable given it is in a completely different province! , Hang Dong and San Kamphaeng are now considered part of CM metro but they are some distance out with green fields between CM and both towns.

If we were to measure Bangkok in the same, relative, terms then Nakhon Pathom, Samut Sakhon, Ayutthaya, Chonburi and Chachoengsao would probably all be considered part of BKK city!

Here is the first CM city plan from late 2007 for your interest;

Edited July 18, 2012 by Lakegeneve