Anti-americanism And Anti-bushism In Thailand

[Thaiquila]

Of course it no news and totally understandable that when Americans are abroad these days, they are encountering a big increase in anti-American feelings (largely due to Bush's policies).

What have your personal experiences been in Thailand with this?

Before George Bush, the most common reaction I had to telling everyday Thai people I am American was a smile and often the phrase "number one country."

Since the post 9/11 policies of Bush, when I say I am American, the most often reaction is an awkward silence.

In my case, I make it a point to express my sincere dislike of George Bush (mai chawp Bush, Bush mai dee), and the reaction is usually curiosity that an American would openly tell a foreigner that he feels like this.

As an experiment a while back, a friend and I spend a week posing as Canadians. This is a common tactic of Americans during times like these. The reactions were markedly different! Upon announcing our loyalty to the maple leaf flag, the most common reaction was an immediate, frank statement of dislike of Bush and the power of America! Something most Thais would never tell an American to his face.

[pepe]

As I'm not an American, this thread doesn't concern me. What a shame !

[Thaiquila]

As I'm not an American, this thread doesn't concern me. What a shame !

I didn't intend to restrict comments about this issue to Yankees!

As I indicated, non-Americans are probably hearing more of the real truth and scope of this phenom because most Thai people are too polite to tell self-admitted Americans how they feel to their face.

I am old enough to have once been a backpacker in Europe during the Vietnam war. Never saw so many Canadian maple leafs attached to backpacks in my whole life!

[adjan jb]

We don't hear a lot about these issues in Thaïland. How can I put it without being rude... Well, Thaï people are not in their vast majority what we call "citizens" in my country (France). Their political awareness (in french we say "political consciousness") is close to...nothing (happy people). They are not taught to think by themselves, they are not taught to protest when they disagree and last but not least they don't give a sh1t (happy people again). In these conditions, It's very difficult to have a discussion with them on such a topic. Due to my job, I meet educated people on a regular basis, I would say that 90 % don't have an opinion or don't want to express it. The remaining 10 % positively hate America and every thing this country stands for.

Among the common people I know (they dare to speak because they trust me), a vast majority is fed up with America. They're fed up that their country is just a poodle dog. They hear more and more about Europe (the European Union) and they really want to know what alternatives this one has to offer.

Before the war, I had some american friends. They used to come to my home where they could listen to the Grateful Dead, Tim Buckley, Bob Dylan, Jefferson Airplane, Tom Waits, etc... Anyway, some music that's not that common in Thaïland. Since that, they don't come anymore. They don't even say hello in the street. They have unilateraly decided that I was not a friend anymore because my country was opposed to this war. Because I was also opposed to this war. They have denied me the right to disagree, the right to dissent.

Those f***ing morons (they deserve this one because they are all democrats) have put an end to our friendship because according to them there were no alternatives: I was with them or I was agaisnt them.

BRAINWASHED !

Mai pen rai, I still enjoy Dylan, the Dead and Country Joe and the Fish:

And it's one, two, three

what are we fighting for ?

Don't ask me I don't give a ######

Next stop is Vietnam

And it' five, six, seven

open the pearly gate

well, there's no time to wonder why

Whoppee! We're all goin' to die !!

[Boon Mee]

<As an experiment a while back, a friend and I spend a week posing as Canadians>

Why don't you and your buddy just scuttle on down to the Canadian Embassy and apply for citizenship then???

where's my Bong...

[NedKelly]

Why would you want to be American ? Got me beat ! these days anyone identifying as a yank is in serious peril of getting blownup or whatever. It is safest to say you come from that other Aussie state New Zealand, they dont tend to offend anyone other than the french !

[Georgie-Porgie]

Benny A (Benedict Arnold)! I thought that you were tired of being correctly identified as a traitor, but here you are with another bullshit, traitorous post. Just remember what ended up happening to Judas once he spent the silver pieces!

Here are my experiences, as opposed to yours.

Americans...are encountering a big increase in anti-American feelings (largely due to Bush's policies).

I work with the public and tell everyone that I am American and have had no negative encounters. NONE.

What have your personal experiences been in Thailand with this?

Before George Bush, the most common reaction I had to telling everyday Thai people I am American was a smile and often the phrase "number one country."

This was my experience also.

Since the post 9/11 policies of Bush, when I say I am American, the most often reaction is an awkward silence.

Funny, I still get the same old smile and, "America number one".

In my case, I make it a point to express my sincere dislike of George Bush (mai chawp Bush, Bush mai dee), and the reaction is usually curiosity that an American would openly tell a foreigner that he feels like this.

I don't usually mention George Bush at all, but the Thais usually smile, give me a thumbs up, and add, "George Bush number one," just as they have done with every President that I can remember.

As an experiment a while back, a friend and I spend a week posing as Canadians. This is a common tactic of Americans during times like these. The reactions were markedly different! Upon announcing our loyalty to the maple leaf flag, the most common reaction was an immediate, frank statement of dislike of Bush and the power of America! Something most Thais would never tell an American to his face.

I never masquerade as Canadian, but I have Canadian friends, Aussie friends, and British friends and they all assure me that all us Farangs are pretty much the same to the khon Thai, and that they don't spend much time discussing international politics. Are you really trying to pretend otherwise?

Sorry Benny A., but I think that there is a big difference between the way that things are, and the way that you wish things were!

[Georgie-Porgie]

Before the war, I had some american friends. They used to come to my home where they could listen to the Grateful Dead, Tim Buckley, Bob Dylan, Jefferson Airplane, Tom Waits, etc... Anyway, some music that's not that common in Thaïland. Since that, they don't come anymore. They don't even say hello in the street. They have unilateraly decided that I was not a friend anymore because my country was opposed to this war. Because I was also opposed to this war. They have denied me the right to disagree, the right to dissent.

Those f***ing morons (they deserve this one because they are all democrats) have put an end to  our friendship because according to them there were no alternatives: I was with them or I was agaisnt them.

BRAINWASHED !

Mai pen rai,  I still enjoy Dylan, the Dead and Country Joe and the Fish:

And it's one, two, three

what are we fighting for ?

Don't ask me I don't give a ######

Next stop is Vietnam

And it' five, six, seven

open the pearly gate

well, there's no time to wonder why

Whoppee! We're all goin' to die !!

adjan jb, sorry about your experience. I don't know you other than here, so I can't say if it was your your fault (something about your out-spokeness), or if the Americans were on the lower end of the American scale.

I know that up here, all different nationalities hang around together and we've had no problem with any of this. In fact, when we argue about it, at all, it is usually about Tony Blair. Americans love him, but Brits don't, however, most of my English freinds admit through gritted teeth that they support George and Tony's policies, they just don't like the men and they don't like the way that they have gone about carrying the policies out.

[the gentleman]

I ask people if they are Canadian first, just so I dont offend them if they are

[Thaiquila]

<As an experiment a while back, a friend and I spend a week posing as Canadians>

Why don't you and your buddy just scuttle on down to the Canadian Embassy and apply for citizenship then???

where's my Bong...

This is so typical!

Why do chauvinistic Americans assume that if an American is disgusted with George Bush, they should leave and become a citizen of another country, AND that these other countries are just lining up to admit Americans? Truly amazing arrogance.

Have you looked at the immigration requirements for a country like Australia, for example? The vast majority of Americans would not make it.

[Thaiquila]

Benny A (Benedict Arnold)! I thought that you were tired of being correctly identified as a traitor, but here you are with another bullshit, traitorous post.

I resemble that remark! What can I say? Sue me. New years resolutions are made to be broken. If Gloria Arroyo can change her mind, so can I. At least I tried to keep it Thailand related.

I am enjoying the more reasoned responses to this post. It is interesting to see there are different experiences. Personally, the difference in response to being American under the remarkably intelligent, wonderful president Bill Clinton and the evil, fascist puppet George W Bush has been dramatic.

[SoCal]

Thaiquilla, you are truly a sad individual.

I don't agree with Bush, nor did I Clinton, but you will never find me ashamed to be an American, much less lie and say I was Candian (couldn't come up with a better lie?)

To me respect and honor are the two most important attributes to being a man. You do not have my respect, nor do you have an ounce of honor.

All over the world I have met people who are not happy with their political leaders, and condemn them, but they hold pride in who they are and where they are from.

I only think a handful of spineless b*stards would take your view.

Nothing more to say to you.

[Thaiquila]

Thaiquilla, you are truly a sad individual.

To me respect and honor are the two most important attributes to being a man. You do not have my respect, nor do you have an ounce of honor.

All over the world I have met people who are not happy with their political leaders, and condemn them, but they hold pride in who they are and where they are from.

For the record (see my first post), you pompous buffoon, my friend and I posed as Canadians as an EXPERIMENT to see whether Thai people would react to us differently. They DID. It was interesting. We learned something new. Try it sometime!

I happen to have some intellectual curiousity; something George Bush lacks completely. When I was a kid in Europe, I never posed as Canadian, but I observed many people who did and found it quite funny. I just made it clear to people I met that I was an antiwar activist back then, something to which I am proud about now as history has proved me correct.

Anyway, don't Christians say pride is a sin?

To be clear, I do think excessive nationalism is a dangerous thing for any country, especially a powerful country like the US. That said, I am certainly not all ashamed that I happen to be a US citizen. I am deeply ashamed and disgusted by George Bush, and feel great dissapointment that our people were so stupid as to elect him last time (well, at least the majority did vote for his opponent).

As far as your lost respect, I care about your respect as much as I care about the hurt feelings Bush is going to feel when he is shown the door in November!

[mrvietnam2001]

Hmmm, my experience was 80% in Vietnam and 20% in Thailand. Like Mr Georgie=Porgie 90++ % of my experiences were far and away the same with "America, number one" being the most used reply by the Vietnamese who I met and I have had literally dozens of employees, hundreds of encounters with families and curious types.

That was pre-9/11

Post 9/11 99% of the Vietnamese in one form or another told me " we hope that America severely punishes whoever did this", to the point where I finally found myself asking "what is your real opinion of what America represents to the world" ( think about where I am when asking this question), and one of the best examples that anyone gave was and I quote " America has become like a mother to the world and sometimes the children do bad things and have to be punished, but as any loving mother, America is most forgiving and after the punishment gives the children ice cream and makes them feel good again". I mean it. I heard this. I wrote most of it down although some of this is a paraphrase.

Complete strangers came to my house in Saigon with baskets of food, condolences and expressions of care and concern for my safety ( I was the only American in that neighborhood) and a number of them pledged "Mr Tom, nobody will ever hurt you in Vietnam, we make sure". I never lost a moments sleep either. Heck I became the first individual American to sign a free trade agreement with a government entity in Vietnam and yes it made a difference in my lifestyle there. And as a VERY outspoken anti socialist, this was quite a momentous engagement to be sure.

I was on the streets of Saigon wearing my American flag t-shirt on my motorcycle the day after 9/11. Despite the warnings I was given by the US Consulate to stay indoors out of sight, my attitude was here I am, let's do it if that's what you want to do. Pose as a Canadian? That's a laugh.

Most of the Thai's were "somewhat" the same as the Vietnamese ( sort of, kind of). Ditto on the Italians I know, the Germans and the French people I came to know in both countries. I was and am very grateful for the bonds of friendship these people extended to me.

The only "one" I encountered who was a "little" vocal in his critisism was a brit and I put him in his place right quick to which the Viets laughed at him and the brit left the scene with his tail between his legs.

Post Iraq: Much changed, particularly in Thailand, to the negative. I was asked "questions" in Vietnam, but most everyone I come in contact with there now knows me and so the questions are far and few between as most people are fully aware of my position and have become friends of mine.

So much has changed. I wanted to take my wife to the Statue of Liberty this spring. To show her some of the icons of America, and certainly that gift from France is clearly one of the defining monuments to how the French and other people around the world have viewed America for so long as the source of inspiration, hope and freedom thruout the world. Was it the French who wanted that monument to be placed facing outwards as a way to project these ideas to the rest of the world? I'm not sure, will have to research who made that decision.

I know that there was an incredible view of Manhattan from the top of that lady of liberty as I've been there many times, first with my Mother and Father when I was a boy, again when I lived in the Big Apple, then with my own daughter. But the most incredible part of that view, the twin towers are gone, along with almost 3,000 innocent humans who were murdered. And Lady Liberty is closed until further notice according to the information I read.

What a God ###### shame.

Mr Vietnam

[Jeepz]

mrvietnam2001~

A very thoughtful post. Thanks for sharing it.

Jeepz

[SoCal]

you pompous buffoon

TQ- What a clever reply.

This is what you call someone who maintains that the basic tenants to being a man is conducting oneself with honor, and showing the respect to others that one expects in return?

You have shown your colors too many times.

You may not care if others respect you, but once again this is an attribute we do not share.

Yeah I do have pride in lots of things, and in my opinion worthwhile things, but you assume too much. Just as you assume that I am pro Bush, you now assume that I am a Christian. Guess you will never get it right.

PS- I would just as soon not know someone like you, let alone interact, so kindly do not reply to my posts, and I will in turn show you the same courtesy.

[SoCal]

Could not concur more fully. Thanks Mr. V.

Funny how those who don't get it will think that you are a fanatical Bush supporter, and call you a fascist.

Simply proud to be American.

Live Free or Die my friend,

SoCal

PS- Do keep (U.S.) politics off the Vietnam forum. I need at least one refuge.

[mrvietnam2001]

Thanks Jeepz

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[mrvietnam2001]

Could not concur more fully. Thanks Mr. V.

Funny how those who don't get it will think that you are a fanatical Bush supporter, and call you a fascist.

Simply proud to be American.

Live Free or Die my friend,

SoCal

PS- Do keep (U.S.) politics off the Vietnam forum. I need at least one refuge.

Thank you Socal,

Funny how none of the ones who would do that would do it face to face huh?

So far the polls on Destination Vietnam are suggesting that it WILL be kept off the forum. There's a couple guys who just won't listen and I'm going to ban them if it continues. One of them has never even been on an international flight much less lived overseas and rather than ask questions, he makes commentary as though he knows something.

I looked earlier and it's not appearing too good for anyone who wants to inject that crap into the group. I decided to put it to a vote ( which I will live by) as I wanted to give everyone a chance to express their wants.

Rgrds

Mr Vietnam

[Thaiquila]

PS- I would just as soon not know someone like you, let alone interact, so kindly do not reply to my posts, and I will in turn show you the same courtesy.

D'accord. Avec plaisir, mon cherie.

[SoCal]

Mon Cher/Ma Cherie

Bonne Journee Thaiquila,

SoCal

[mrvietnam2001]

D'accord. Avec plaisir, mon cherie.

Oh good, languages! This is fun. Please put me on the list too ok? But before I go, let me just say Mot so nguoi sinh ra bam sinh la mot ke ngu dan, va mot so nguoi lai tu bien minh thanh mot ke ngu dan.

Anh Thaiquila la mot loai nguoi thuoc hai dang tren.

Mr Vietnam

[Thaiquila]

Great, OK, can we move on from the flaming?

I don't even speak Vietnamese and I am blushing.

Any comments on the subject of the post? Otherwise, lets call this one done.

[SoCal]

Tom, you got me on the Vietnamese as well.

Can cover French and Spanish, with a smattering (whatever the h*ll that means) of Russian, Thai, and Chinese.

Every once in the while, I can even pull English out of my arse.

Doc? George? I.T.?

Can we close this?

[singa-traz]

Why close so fast ... I think we have not really explore the subject.

Any of you talk to a Thai Muslim, and ask them what they think about the US Foreign policy.

They usually are more aware about international news, and as muslim, have probably a different view than the rest of the Thai (Not that they would automatically have anti-american sentiment)

They would have gone in the middle east, at least once.

[SoCal]

Singa,

Why close? It became a bashing thread of Thaiquila. He started it, but beating someone senseless doesn't make much sense either.

Muslim Thais- I know a lot of non Thai muslims, who are both business partners and friends. I will tell you that I have not met one who is fair or realistic in their world view, not to say that such a person does not exist. Most have a we vs them philosophy, and cannot come to terms with what happened on 9/11, even with Osama laughing about/admitting.

All very sad Singa, and I certainly mean no disrespect to you (assumption) or any muslim. Fact is that I have read the Koran, used to respect the muslim religion, and more importantly still do.

Fact is as I see it, is that the religion has been hijacked by extremists, and those who would serve themselves before god, and not enough good muslims can really come to terms with what has happened to their religion.

*Before telling me how wrong I am, ponder the recent killing of the budist priest, and the throngs of good honest muslims protesting this in southern Thailand. Yes my friend, no unrest, I know.

SoCal

[mrvietnam2001]

Any of you talk to a Thai Muslim, and ask them what they think about the US Foreign policy.

They usually are more aware about international news, and as muslim, have probably a different view than the rest of the Thai (Not that they would automatically have anti-american sentiment)

I have a picture of me taken with a family of Thai muslims overlooking that spot in Phuket as you go over that big hill.

And I'm wearing my American flag t-shirt. There was nothing but harmony although at the very first moment, I "guess" there was a little unease as to how we would feel about each other.

But it lightened up real quick and it was fine fine fine.

We're all individuals, contrary to what the socialist mindset would have us believe. And as individuals, we get treated ( generally speaking) roughly the same way that we treat others. Generally speaking.

Mr Vietnam

[Boon Mee]

<<I am old enough to have once been a backpacker in Europe during the Vietnam war. Never saw so many Canadian maple leafs attached to backpacks in my whole life! >>

Thiquilla:

So not only are you some kinda coward to admit you're an American in Thailand (Thais LOVE Yanks no matter Who is in the White House) but you're also probably a draft-dodger! No wonder you worship Slick Willy - two of a kind.

Believe me pal, when you go around telling Thais how much you hate Bush it reflects badly on you. Thais respect authority/senority and when some well-intentioned but miss-guided person such as yourself bad-mouths his commander-in-Chief as you've been doing they take you for the fool you are.

Have a nice day...

Boon Mee

[singa-traz]

We're all individuals, contrary to what the socialist mindset would have us believe. And as individuals, we get treated ( generally speaking) roughly the same way that we treat others. Generally speaking.

Mr Vietnam

Yes, as individual you get respected ... but the thumb-up "America Number One" from a Thai muslim ... I would be surprised to see this ... without a little unease.

[plachon]

I've mentioned this before several months back (funny how things come around huh?), but I'll mention it again as it is directly relevant to this thread. The vast majority of Thais couldn't give a flying f..k who's in power at home, abroad or on the moon as they don't perceive it directly affects their everyday existence. However, of the few politically aware ones I know, they are without exception anti-American in general and were so long before the Iraq war. It has far more to do with their experiences as a US forces-occupied country during the Indochina War than anything else and how the US aided and abetted the Thai military juntas of the time in supressing political freedom and democracy (some things never change, huh?). Anybody with even a hint of political consciousness from that era will recall the anti-US rallies and how Songs for Life artists such as Caravan penned numbers lamenting Uncle Sam's presence on Thai soil. This tradition continued with the likes of Carabao and Pongthep up to the present day, raising awareness that touristic and corporate presence can be as dangerous to "Thai values" as military presence. However, Carabao famously sold out in their nationalistic "Made in Thailand" album by being sponsored by Coca Cola and even though the irony was lost on most, has carried on regardless with albums more recently like "The Ugly American".

Of all my Thai friends, I would regard one Khon Kaen University lecturer as the most politically aware and astute. It's no coincidence therefore that he named his alsatian dog (again not very patriotic, huh?) "Bin Laden", even way before 9-11 happened, and it's the most soppy thing you ever came across. In fact, all bark and no bite.