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Anti-americanism And Anti-bushism In Thailand


Thaiquila

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I don't usually print the following kind of stuff and I'm not a fan of the person here by and large, but thought this was an interesting enough article to do so.

Enjoy.

Mr Vietnam :o

A World Apart

By Taki

Chicken Countries Shunning U.S. Beef,” screamed a New York Post headline recently. As far as eye-catching headlines go, it was a good one. The message was not exactly subliminal. Frogs, Krauts, and Limeys—bad, Americans—good. Nothing wrong with that—except for the facts, of course. The United States was one of the first countries to ban the importation of British beef after mad cow disease was discovered. As panic swept the country in 1989, officials at the Department of Agriculture called it a matter of life and death. The scare was exacerbated by Oprah Winfrey’s 1996 declaration that she would stop eating hamburgers because of her fears over mad cow disease. In 1999, America threatened to ban blood donations from anyone who had visited Britain the preceding 20 years, in case they had contracted the human equivalent. Anti-American British tabloids had a field day, but I can’t remember anyone calling the Yanks chickens. Mind you, they’ve called Americans everything else, including chickens, although in a different context.

Ironically, among the most strident anti-Americans in the Euro crowd are the Brits. It’s obviously something to do with having had to eat crow in Yorktown or having had their chestnuts pulled out of the fire twice in the space of 20 years, with American GIs doing the pulling. Ironically, the French are mostly pro-American, despite their leaders, as are the Germans and Italians. My very own, the Greeks, are even worse than the Brits. The most shameful moment came following the WTC tragedy. When asked for a minute of silence for the victims during an international football match, the crowd booed full throttle.

What is it about Uncle Sam that turns the civilized Euros into America-haters? Is it because he’s so rich and powerful? Is it Coca-Cola and McDonald’s? Or is it American arrogance? Well, in my not so humble opinion, it’s all three, with a little European snobbery thrown in for good measure.

Hollywood does not help. Let’s face it: Europeans perceive America through movies, and as everyone who has ever seen a movie knows, the Hollywood version of America is of an evil country governed by crooks. When was the last time you saw a film in which a priest was not a sexual pervert? A policeman not a sadistic racist? An FBI or CIA agent not in the pay of drug dealers or of a shadowy corporation plotting to poison everyone’s water in pursuit of the almighty (not so mighty lately) dollar? Better yet, when was the last time Hollywood depicted a drug dealer, and a black dealer at that, as bad? Movies are not real life, and Europeans are supposedly a sophisticated lot who know better, and yet … Just the violence in American films gives reason enough to America-haters to say I told you so. The disconnect between Hollywood and America fills the rest of the world with a distorted picture of the so-called land of opportunity.

The trouble with Europe is it can never look America in the eye as an equal. The tired old continent will always be like a junior overseas partner of a giant bank who is invited to the office party as a gracious gesture on the part of the American honcho.

And then there’s anti-Semitism. Nothing outrages Europeans more than to read American pundits accusing them of it. France, Germany, and Britain are swamped with Muslims—close to six million in France. They, and they alone, are responsible for anti-Semitic attacks against Jews and other outrages such as defacing synagogues and Jewish graves. Spineless European leaders fear their indigenous Muslims and fudge the issue. If there is any anti-Semitism left in Europe after World War II, it is confined to whispers in the drawing room, if that. Yet the American media persist in linking it with Europeans in general, as unfair a charge as it is false.

Uncle Sam going it alone in Iraq—while jingoist newspapers and networks called those who refused to follow Donald von Rumsfeld cowards—added fuel to the anti-American bonfire. Coward is a dirty word worldwide, and the only thing I can add are a few statistics. Between August 1914 and November 1918, one and half million French soldiers died in battle. This is three times more than all Americans who have died in every foreign war between 1776 and today. Over 120,000 French soldiers died in six weeks in the spring of 1940. Some 3,250,000 German soldiers died in two world wars, and close to five million Russians. The Brits lost something like two million in the two wars. A tiny country such as my own has lost nearly a million soldiers since the turn of the 20th century. We Europeans need no lessons in dying for our countries from Americans. What we do need is a better American understanding of our cultural differences and of the fact that we cannot be like the Americans because we, sadly or otherwise, happen to be Europeans.

February 2, 2004 issue

( hey that's my birthday! Groundhogs day!)

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Singa, agree with you and Mr. V. The treatment I receive from my muslim friends even surpases Thai standards. That said, it is the same as they say about the kitchen table, do not discuss politics and religion.

Plachon, how conceided can you be, that the political aware ones are the ones that agree with you?

Hey, Pattaya wouldn't exist without the U.S., and a million sex tourists can't be wrong. :o

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Mr. V.,

A little unfair, but based on enough truth. Nice to hear our side anyway.

Speaking of anti-semitic views of the EU. Several EU countries have outlawed kosher meats, viewing the way the animal is bled as cruelty to animals. Okay, fair enough. The interesting thing is that there is no ban on Halal meat.

1) Muslims, Christians, and Jews worship the same god. Hard to believe eh? God of Abraham, look it up.

2) Kosher and Halal meets are prepared in the same (Old Testament) manner.

Yeah, time for D-Day for all those European jacka**es who love to bash America. Let's compare facts. Both yesterday, and today we beat you hands down.

SoCal

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Singa, agree with you and Mr. V. The treatment I receive from my muslim friends even surpases Thai standards. That said, it is the same as they say about the kitchen table, do not discuss politics and religion.

Plachon, how conceided can you be, that the political aware ones are the ones that agree with you?

Hey, Pattaya wouldn't exist without the U.S., and a million sex tourists can't be wrong. :o

"Conceided", wot's that SoCal? :D And probably is just coincidence.......and no, a million sex-tourists confirming the GIs choice of R&R couldn't possibly be wrong, could they? :D

Greatly enjoyed the Taki, Mr V, by the way. Is the guy a Greek or a yank, or both? I've simplified everything these days, by just shunning all US exports bar the music and the movies, which are still world class in small, selective doses. :D

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Plachon, how conceited can you be, that the political aware ones are the ones that agree with you?
SoCal, I was trying to ignore that one, but, yes, I was an Adjan too (once upon a time) and know all kinds of high-fallutin Thai Professors and what-not, and we often discuss politics. Not a "Bin Ladin" amongst them.

As to plachon's assertion that:

Anybody with even a hint of political consciousness from that era will recall the anti-US rallies and how Songs for Life artists such as Caravan penned numbers lamenting Uncle Sam's presence on Thai soil.

Have you ever heard the word "fashion" plachon. Everyone in the world was protesting against Vietnam back then -even me- , but mostly it was just a way to get laid, nothing to use as evidence in a political argument.

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G.P.,

1) Conceited.

2) Pattaya- just trying to be a little inciteful. I have my serious times, and my tongue in cheek times. Trust me, these guys will go back to oil and WMD before they even consider anything we have to say.

Obviously, as point #1 made, time for me to leave you for the day.

Take care, and wage on,

SoCal

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<<I am old enough to have once been a backpacker in Europe during the Vietnam war. Never saw so many Canadian maple leafs attached to backpacks in my whole life! >>

Thiquilla:

So not only are you some kinda coward to admit you're an American in Thailand (Thais LOVE Yanks no matter Who is in the White House) but you're also probably  a draft-dodger!  No wonder you worship Slick Willy - two of a kind. :D

Believe me pal, when you go around telling Thais how much you hate Bush it reflects badly on you.  Thais respect authority/senority and when some well-intentioned but miss-guided person such as yourself bad-mouths his commander-in-Chief as you've been doing they take you for the fool you are. :o

Have a nice day...

Boon Mee

I was only a teen during Vietnam, and would have been 4F anyway, so draft dodging is not the issue. If anyone still thinks the Vietnam/American war was not a huge mistake by America, see the film The Fog of War, where former Defense Secretary McNamara (who RAN that war) admits as much.

I totally understand that Thais usually do not understand Americans bad mouthing Bush.

However, as a man of honor and principle, there are some Western values that I will not relinquish. One of them is that I do not wish anyone to assume that I support the most despicable president in American history, George Bush, just because I am American. Why do you think I said that I get looks of curiosity from Thais when I express this? I get it. I think it is important the world knows that Bush has passionate opposition in his home country. Make em think a little.

Looking forward to November 2004, the month of the liberation of America and the downfall of the Bush regime. Sweet victory awaits.

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Don't hold your breath - with the US economy surging along quite nicely - Dow up the highest in 31 months yesterday - the "Great Silent Majority" will vote Bush back in - no problemo.

We've got to keep Bush in another four years anyhow just to get the bad taste of Slick Willy and his crew (Madalene Allbright?) out of our system.

Boon Mee

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Don't hold your breath - with the US economy surging along quite nicely - Dow up the highest in 31 months yesterday - the "Great Silent Majority" will vote Bush back in - no problemo.

We've got to keep Bush in another four years anyhow just to get the bad taste of Slick Willy and his crew (Madalene Allbright?) out of our system.

Boon Mee

What is not to like about Albright?

History will prove you wrong.

Tony Blair the poodle dog is about to be ousted, can the poodle prodder be far behind?

Change is in the air.

Yes the US stock market is up, BUT

the job growth is nonexistant

the jobs that are being created are lower paying and often have no benefits

health care cover is becoming a huge issue and Bushs response is in need of megadose of Viagra. His compassionate conservative cover is obvious cynical crock, and his vapid "State of the Union" address, more like the "State of My Reelection Propoganda" speech was awful.

If the dems can field a leader who can counter the fear that people aren't safe without him, it will be very competitive. Remember, last time, Bush received a minority of votes.

If you think this election will be a cake walk for Bush, I have some chickens to sell you.

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<<If you think this election will be a cake walk for Bush>>

It will be a cake walk for Bush if he runs against Mad Howlin' Howard. One wonders how on earth 'ol Mujahi-Dean can keep up that volume with both feet planted firmly in his mouth!

When the voters come to their senses and realize this guy is going to RAISE their taxes he'll be gone faster than Walter Mondale (who carried, I believe, only one state).

Madelene Albright is one of the main reasons Osama is on the loose today!!!

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D'accord. Avec plaisir, mon cherie.

Oh good, languages! This is fun. Please put me on the list too ok? But before I go, let me just say Mot so nguoi sinh ra bam sinh la mot ke ngu dan, va mot so nguoi lai tu bien minh thanh mot ke ngu dan.

Anh Thaiquila la mot loai nguoi thuoc hai dang tren.

Mr Vietnam :o

Wow, so many languages?

To you Mr. V: CHUC MUNG NAM MOI

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<<If you think this election will be a cake walk for Bush>>

When the voters come to their senses and realize this guy is going to RAISE their taxes he'll be gone faster than Walter Mondale (who carried, I believe, only one state).

Todays democratic line is "dated Dean, married Kerry."

Dean deserves ALL of the credit for defining the debate of the party and galvanizing the anti Bush sentiment.

It now seems doubtful that Dean will be nominated because of the perhaps unfair perception that he is a risky choice. Too early to tell, of course.

Kerry's tax plan is a lot more populist and a lot more palatable.

He wants to raise taxes on people earning more the 200K (Bush voters anyway) and preserve the Bush tax cuts for those earning under that. Pretty nifty, huh?

You can call it class warfare all you like, but have you noticed the vast majority of people earn under 200K? Lots of votes there.

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Off-topic here, my biggest pet peeve so of course I will now be guilty of it! But had to add this little bit to what Thaiquila said.

Red Ink Realities

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Even conservatives are starting to admit that George Bush isn't serious when he claims to be doing something about the exploding budget deficit. At best — to borrow the already classic language of the State of the Union address — his administration is engaged in deficit reduction-related program activities.

But these admissions have been accompanied by an urban legend about what went wrong. According to cleverly misleading reports from the Heritage Foundation and other like-minded sources, the deficit is growing because Mr. Bush isn't sufficiently conservative: he's allowing runaway growth in domestic spending. This myth is intended to divert attention from the real culprit: sharply reduced tax collections, mainly from corporations and the wealthy.

Is domestic spending really exploding? Think about it: farm subsidies aside, which domestic programs have received lavish budget increases over the last three years? Education? Don't be silly: No Child Left Behind is rapidly turning into a sick joke.

In fact, many government agencies are severely underfinanced. For example, last month the head of the National Park Service's police admitted to reporters that her force faced serious budget and staff shortages, and was promptly suspended.

A recent study by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities does the math. While overall government spending has risen rapidly since 2001, the great bulk of that increase can be attributed either to outlays on defense and homeland security, or to types of government spending, like unemployment insurance, that automatically rise when the economy is depressed.

Why, then, do we face the prospect of huge deficits as far as the eye can see? Part of the answer is the surge in defense and homeland security spending. The main reason for deficits, however, is that revenues have plunged. Federal tax receipts as a share of national income are now at their lowest level since 1950.

Of course, most people don't feel that their taxes have fallen sharply. And they're right: taxes that fall mainly on middle-income Americans, like the payroll tax, are still near historic highs. The decline in revenue has come almost entirely from taxes that are mostly paid by the richest 5 percent of families: the personal income tax and the corporate profits tax. These taxes combined now take a smaller share of national income than in any year since World War II.

This decline in tax collections from the wealthy is partly the result of the Bush tax cuts, which account for more than half of this year's projected deficit. But it also probably reflects an epidemic of tax avoidance and evasion.

There's more but you get the picture about tax cuts for the wealthy.

But to go back on topic, I live in a Thai-Muslim village all of whom have known me for the past 15 years, know I am American and have no prejudice against me whatsoever. The only time any of them have ever talked politics with me is after 9/11 when a good friend came to apologize and tell me that these people were not real muslims, that true, faithful muslims could never condone such an action.

I have found that most Thai people have far too good of manners to ever tell me to my face that they dislike my country's President. I don't bring it up since around here most people don't talk politics anyway. They talk about their lives, fishing (l live in a fishing village) weather, kids , business, the state of the roads. In fact, the usual conversations people have around the world.

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SBK,

1) Care to join me in Karachi or Damascus? I even have an invite to Kabul. There is a definite difference between Thai muslims, and even their Malaysian or Indonesian counterparts, but the generalisations I speak are true. If you don't think so, then gladly show me where I am wrong. I would much rather learn something, than hear about oil & WMD.

2) The rich pay most the taxes, so why shouldn't they get a break? Why exactly does the top 10% have to support the bottom 90%? That said, I do find the world a tragic place, but have no confidence in any government to redistribute anything. Politicians serve themselves, it is the good ones that don't pay the people too great a disservice.

SoCal

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Sorry socal, I thought the topic was anti-americanism, anti-bushism in Thailand. Perhaps I misread the thread topic somehow and it is about anti-americanism worldwide???

And I believe the point of the tax cuts according to Mr. Bush that they were to help the average american?? since when is the top 10% the average?

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Actually, Bush has never met an average American. Why would he help someone he doesn't know. The WhiteHouse is no charity organizition.

If the poor and the average Americans need jobs, let's them join the Holy US army. Those poor bas*ards shouldn't ask what their country can do for them but what they can do for Bush, Cheney and Halli(burton) and the forty thieves.

I hate the average. If you too are fed up with the average American too, vote REPUBLICAN.

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SBK,

1) I think I have held to topic, a whole lot more than some of those on the left. I try to have an intelligent conversation with you, and you throw out a stupid (appologies) mis-statement (pt 2). Fair enough.

2) The tax cut went to everyone who pays tax (excluding social security-FICA). I received a tax break, as did everyone of my employees. My employees would mock you, and call you a fool if you called them rich, or top 10%. Fact is that they are hard working imigrants building a better life for themselves and their families. They came to America because this country affords them this opportunity, where as the countries they came from did not. Bush did a favor to everyone who pays income tax, is married, or has children. You may have been away from America a long time, but that is not 10% of the population.

SoCal

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Georgie Porgy

why you having a go at Judas. After all Jesus died for OUR sins and if it hadn't been for judas perhaps he wouldn't have :o

Love n peace Joe Strawberry

Mr. Strawberry

You are absolutely correct. Comparing Judas to Thaiquila was low blow. Judas, wherever you are, you have my sincere apologies. :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi guys, I thought I might just add a few observations to your little forum here, I am quite well travelled because of my field of operations, and get to see another side of the action and reactions to what the yanks get up to globally.

I was in Hanoi in '94' just as the trade embargo was lifted by the US, I met a bunch of Yanks who were posing as Canadians, I guess they felt safe to express their nationality that evening as I am a Brit and offered no threat to their little game.

They had been posing as Canadians for many years, some had even been there since the end of the war... Wonder which department they were working for? 'See eye ay' no doubt??

I also wondered where they got their 'Canadian' passports from, seems easy for this type of diplomatic ambassadors.

As Canadians they had been treated really well by the Viets, they were largely involved in the 'Textile trade' but who knows what that could mean.

As to the reaction of Thais to yanks, I was in Phuket when 9-11 hit, a few days later the local muslims had Osama T shirts and the 2 towers in flames T shirts, seem quite proud of what their brothers had achieved. That was interesting, and I didn't see too many yanks arguing with them either.... but then they aren't allowed to carry guns in the land of smiles are they. :o

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Mr. Basher, as one who has lived for here many, many years, I can tell you that we Expats adapt a Mai Pen Rai attitude towards our benefactors. In other words, I would put a Thai wearing a Osama Bin Ladin T-shirt in the same category as a Thai wearing a Mickey Mouse T-shirt, and believe me, it would have about the same significance. :o

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The rich pay most the taxes, so why shouldn't they get a break? Why exactly does the top 10% have to support the bottom 90%? That said, I do find the world a tragic place, but have no confidence in any government to redistribute anything. Politicians serve themselves, it is the good ones that don't pay the people too great a disservice.

Because, SoCal, the top 10% have ENOUGH. The bottom 90% don't. I don't know if you realize that the gap is constantly WIDENING, despite all the ranting and raving about how globalism will save the world, and the children etc. While countries like Thailand and China are booming, most of Africa is sinking deeper into its circle of poverty and violence.

Some of the top 10% have worked very hard for their success and lifestyle. They deserve a good life. But some of the people at the bottom work 10 times harder, and get a bundle of bananas and a pat on the shoulder for their efforts, if they're lucky. It is common courtesy to extend what you have to others - if you have a lot, you should share a lot. :D

I believe part of your cynical view of politicians in general is due to your being a citizen of the country with the most money-infested and lobbyist-controlled election system known to western civilization, and where self-affirmation "if you constantly try to convince yourself and others you are the best and that there is no problem, your problems disappear" is considered a core cultural value. To say "I don't like ..." is considered anti-American, unless it is intended to bash communists, Arabs, muslims or Europeans. Very democratic. :o

The USA was a great idea, anyone who has tried to understand what democracy means will agree on that. But if you have a look at present-day SubCanadian SuperMexican North America, I think it is fair to say it has a LONG way to go before starting to dictate how others should run their countries.

Just as an example, election participation rates below 50% of the eligible populace... That's a great compliment on the educational system of "number one", chai mai? :D One criterion of the UN definition of "democracy" is a country where over 50% of the citizens choose to vote. But you probably think the UN is a communist institution anyway?

Have a nice day. :D

And G-P, just so I can agree with you for the first and maybe last time, yes, the significance of the Bin Laden T-shirt on a Thai teen is zero. The same applies to the Nazi flags hanging in some "phleng pheua chiwit" places (and the Che Guevara T-shirts on 5 out of 10 western kids too).

I was once asked by a Thai friend: "I have heard Hitler had very good ideas, is that true?" :D He was devastated to hear about the Holocaust when it finally dawned on him what had happened, I felt really sorry for the guy.

Not shocked anymore, no sir.

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Hi guys, I thought I might just add a few observations to your little forum here, I am quite well travelled because of my field of operations, and get to see another side of the action and reactions to what the yanks get up to globally.

I was in Hanoi in '94' just as the trade embargo was lifted by the US, I met a bunch of Yanks who were posing as Canadians, I guess they felt safe to express their nationality that evening as I am a Brit and offered no threat to their little game.

They had been posing as Canadians for many years, some had even been there since the end of the war... Wonder which department they were working for? 'See eye ay' no doubt??

I also wondered where they got their 'Canadian' passports from, seems easy for this type of diplomatic ambassadors.

As Canadians they had been treated really well by the Viets, they were largely involved in the 'Textile trade' but who knows what that could mean.

As to the reaction of Thais to yanks, I was in Phuket when 9-11 hit, a few days later the local muslims had Osama T shirts and the 2 towers in flames T shirts, seem quite proud of what their brothers had achieved. That was interesting, and I didn't see too many yanks arguing with them either.... but then they aren't allowed to carry guns in the land of smiles are they. :o

Why were they posing as Canadians Bash, that surely is very unpatriotic, wouldnt you agree Georgie? Then again every one likes the Canadians :D

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Why were they posing as Canadians Bash, that surely is very unpatriotic, wouldnt you agree Georgie? Then again every one likes the Canadians :D

Actually, the question should be why would anyone believe such B/S?

Ignorance? Envy?

Please, the closest the author had been to Vietnam is on television. And certainly the author would never have the balls to be as disrespectful to any human, especially an American less the American would either laugh in his/her/it's (?) face or if said author was really so interested, the author would get his face rubbed in his own shit which is probably what the author would enjoy anyway. Canadians are American wannabe's, nothing more. Nice little people who really don't amount to much and have way more problems because of their own lack of productivity and laziness to be taken seriously by anyone. And Vietnamese certainly look upon Canadians as more along the lines of an irrelevant shadow to the Americans who really are the most sought after people to emulate and form relationships with.

In so much as taxes mr meatball, it's always easy for non productive losers to point the finger and try to rally government henchmen to go and steal from more productive people in the attempts to redistribute the "loot" to people like yourself. After all, people like you aren't man enough to make that attempt at robbery yourself and so you rely on government to try and do it for you. Fortunately, those at such a level of intelligence and productivity generally can and do avoid people like you, as we are way too busy with life to attempt engaging you in any sorts of discussions, but if confronted, are certainly ready, and able to wave you off like a fly.

The previous author really should just be quiet about Vietnam as well as the USA. You haven't a clue about either.

TRY to get a job and become productive, you'll feel much more like a human and wil be too busy elevating your own miserable life to be talking worthless trash.

Mr Vietnam :o

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(?) face or if said author was really so interested, the author would get his face rubbed in his own shit which is probably what the author would enjoy anyway.

Hey, Mr. Vietnam, so that's what the dummy really wants! Don't worry about him. Just laugh at his ignorant posts. He is from an insignificant country, obsessed with America, and very, very stupid! You know how guys with little brains and little willys get all obsessed with big, important countries! :o

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Quoting mrvietnam: "In so much as taxes mr meatball, it's always easy for non productive losers to point the finger and try to rally government henchmen to go and steal from more productive people in the attempts to redistribute the "loot" to people like yourself. After all, people like you aren't man enough to make that attempt at robbery yourself and so you rely on government to try and do it for you. Fortunately, those at such a level of intelligence and productivity generally can and do avoid people like you, as we are way too busy with life to attempt engaging you in any sorts of discussions, but if confronted, are certainly ready, and able to wave you off like a fly." unquote

Not that I think a person's importance is determined primarily by the amount of time he/she devotes to work, but if you really want to know (didn't think so) I work between 12 and 15 hours per day, 6 days per week, and make a very decent living off my job. I have no financial problems whatsoever, nor do I think it is a problem that I entrust some fiscal responsibilities over to a sensible government (elected in a country where the MAJORITY of people are literate, reasonably well-educated and can participate in the democratic process, unlike your precious so called bastion of freedom) to distribute part of my earnings to create a better society.

You personally seem to have a big problem with parting from your hard-earned little greenbacks though. One should think that all the time you spent in an essentially Buddhist country would at least have rocked your boat a little, but obviously not.

It makes me very happy to see enlightened and unselfish people like yourself help build a positive image of Western culture and morals in the minds of empoverished people all over the Globe. Keep bringing in the big corporations which will save us all from evil. Sing the praise of free trade and keep making sure that all the essential raw materials of this world are somehow controlled by Caucasians.

You seem so lost in your indvidualistic rat race ideology (very well illustrated by your avatar) that I cannot help but feel a little sorry for you. But only a little.

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