Thailand News

[booma]

Jesus... I have two friends of mine going to Samui next week (women 26 and 27) and now I wonder if I should tell them not to go or at least never never wander off on the beach alone

For sure tell you friends not to wander along the beach alone at night, I know of other incidents around those islands where girls have been walking home alone from parties.

[kat]

booma, would you mind elaborating? I go to those beaches alone, and with all the people on this thread right now it would be one hel_l of a public service announcement.

[gareth1]

I read it as a thankyou to the Thai MIB from the people of Wales.

I guess i could have made it a little clearer.

But I think most people would understand!

[Hadrian1]

Who is MIB?

Pwy yw e neu nhw?

[gareth1]

Who is MIB?

Pwy yw e neu nhw?

MEN IN BROWN

Thai Police.

(not my favorite) people but thy have done a good job for once,and deserve a thank you.

[elfe]

horrible 'things' do happen here all the time, most of it not revealed to the public. any nationalities involved.

the best advice has been given here already : never walk around alone at night and behave cautious and smart!

[LaoPo]

QUESTIONS

There are SO many publications about the case with SO many contradictions, especially also statements from the police, that it is impossible at this moment to find out what REALLY happened.

Now the police says that the 2 guys who are hold as 'suspects' swam ashore using oil tanks as buoys, hit Katherine, dragged her 40 (!) meters to behind a rock, raped her and dragged her into the sea...and than swam back with the same oil tanks (???)

Maybe you can remember that the police also said that the spot where she was found was an impossible site as the tide could not have brought her there, due to the current and that therefore a boat must have been used.

All in all very confusing with still so many questions, and as Kat already said: "what happened with the note IN the bungalow (or was it on the door?) and the missing shoes. Somebody said: everyone could have taken those, but as I understood the shoes were IN the bungalow and the girlfriend was sleeping there....

MEDIA & POLICE INVESTIGATION

Some people think the enormous media attention was too much (...was it?) but I think that WITHOUT this media-attention the case would not have been solved.

Personally I think there might have been contact on the highest Political levels from the UK to the Thai Government since there have been so many murders in Thailand, some unsolved by the Thai Police, that the Government decided to send forensic experts and detectives to Samui and speed-up the process of thorough investigation.

The Samui Police (some 200 as I understood) simply is/was not fully capable of doing and committing such an extensive research and probably doesn't have all the necessary experience and equipment to do so.

SAMUI (BEACHES) DANGEROUS?

I am a man and I have been coming to Thailand for almost 30 years and YES I have been afraid sometimes, walking in the dark, along some beach, but also in other Thai places and beaches than Samui, when it is pitchdark.

Most Thai people are not dangerous towards tourists; most of the time they are nice and kind people, like to laugh and have fun, but the fact is that they like to stay and sit in the dark under the trees or bushes where you can't see them, walking along the beach. But THEY can see you!

The particular beach site where Katherine was walking, making the phonecall, was dark and she was alone.

Unfortunately, she was on the wrong place, wrong time and met the wrong dangerous people....poor girl.

The advise can only be: don't walk in the dark on the beaches or other dark spots, anywhere in the world, whether you are a girl, woman or a man...you never know who's outthere with bad and vicious thoughts

LaoPo

[limbos]

Laopo,

My understanding was that the shoes were placed outside the bungalow, along with the note.

Here, posted on the 7th;

Mr Macdonald had dinner with Katherine shortly before she died and broke the news of her death to her family.

Mr Macdonald, who yesterday made a sworn statement to a Thai court about the incident, said a note and shoes were taken from her bungalow after she disappeared.

He said, "After she went missing we were really worried so Ruth Adams left a note on the door of their bungalow asking Katherine to let her know she was safe when she got back.

"When I went out at 2.30am the note and a pair of Katherine's shoes were outside the bungalow but when Ruth woke up at 8.30am the note and the shoes had gone.

Edited January 9, 2006 by limbos

[LaoPo]

Laopo,

My understanding was that the shoes were placed outside the bungalow, along with the note.

OK, probably stolen than most of the time (Thai)-people don't steal shoes..bad karma, but this time they were; maybe it's a small thing but Katherine really was very unlucky that night !

LaoPo

[dotcom]

"They face possible excecution". I for one hope that is exactly what they get.

[Jai Dee]

OK, probably stolen than most of the time (Thai)-people don't steal shoes..bad karma,

That is very true... if borrowed, they will eventually find their way back...

[limbos]

Laopo,

My understanding was that the shoes were placed outside the bungalow, along with the note.

OK, probably stolen than most of the time (Thai)-people don't steal shoes..bad karma, but this time they were; maybe it's a small thing but Katherine really was very unlucky that night !

LaoPo

Laopo,

I missed this part under the quote ;

"So we felt that she had to be okay if she had her shoes with her. And we thought she had money on her too. To my knowledge the police have not found the shoes and the note was found stuffed behind the bin in a nearby bungalow."

[kat]

Well, I didn't want to spoil everyone's mood about the culprits being found, but the note and shoe thing still don't add up for me. What are the odds that a note left out ends up in a trash bin and her shoes are taken on the night of her murder? Very strange.

But maybe the guy who saw her shoes saw incorrectly, and some early morning cleaning staff removed the note, I dunno.

If these guys are the right guys, I hope they suffer in a miserable hel_l-hole for the rest of their lives.

*edit: If I remember correctly, the guy said first her shoes were gone, and then at 2:30 a.m. or so he saw her shoes outside near the front door. Maybe he was mistaken about the shoes.

Edited January 9, 2006 by kat

[LaoPo]

Laopo,

My understanding was that the shoes were placed outside the bungalow, along with the note.

OK, probably stolen than most of the time (Thai)-people don't steal shoes..bad karma, but this time they were; maybe it's a small thing but Katherine really was very unlucky that night !

LaoPo

Laopo,

I missed this part under the quote ;

"So we felt that she had to be okay if she had her shoes with her. And we thought she had money on her too. To my knowledge the police have not found the shoes and the note was found stuffed behind the bin in a nearby bungalow."

Limbos, thank you. And, again....still SO many questions and no answers.

LaoPo

[Hadrian1]

They now have these two men's DNA profiles and the 'samples' from within the body of the victim. Could anybody tell me if they are matched then that would be conclusive? What I mean is, there is not way that they would be 'made' to match is there? I just didn't like the fact that the PM ordered the police to find the culprits. The police should be doing their utpmost in any case. What would happen if there was no DNA match and the PM had ordered the police to find somebody. A tich up would be very difficult in the UK due to the amount of red tape and proffessional objectivity of those involved but how about Thailand?

[limbos]

Well, I didn't want to spoil everyone's mood about the culprits being found, but the note and shoe thing still don't add up for me. What are the odds that a note left out ends up in a trash bin and her shoes are taken on the night of her murder? Very strange.

But maybe the guy who saw her shoes saw incorrectly, and some early morning cleaning staff removed the note, I dunno.

If these guys are the right guys, I hope they suffer in a miserable hel_l-hole for the rest of their lives.

*edit: If I remember correctly, the guy said first her shoes were gone, and then at 2:30 a.m. or so he saw her shoes outside near the front door. Maybe he was mistaken about the shoes.

Kat,

I don't think the guy ever said that the shoes were inside the bungalow. Please check post #150 in this thread, that's where the quotes originate from.

They now have these two men's DNA profiles and the 'samples' from within the body of the victim. Could anybody tell me if they are matched then that would be conclusive? What I mean is, there is not way that they would be 'made' to match is there? I just didn't like the fact that the PM ordered the police to find the culprits. The police should be doing their utpmost in any case. What would happen if there was no DNA match and the PM had ordered the police to find somebody. A tich up would be very difficult in the UK due to the amount of red tape and proffessional objectivity of those involved but how about Thailand?

Hadrian,

To the best of my knowledge, DNA samples can't be messed around with.

If they fit, they're guilty. AFAIK they not only confessed but also the DNA evidence fits them.

What I don't understand, the police claims that the DNA samples ties both of them to the murder but one guy refuses to plead guilty on the rape charge. That doesn't make sense to me.

[kat]

They now have these two men's DNA profiles and the 'samples' from within the body of the victim. Could anybody tell me if they are matched then that would be conclusive? What I mean is, there is not way that they would be 'made' to match is there? I just didn't like the fact that the PM ordered the police to find the culprits. The police should be doing their utpmost in any case. What would happen if there was no DNA match and the PM had ordered the police to find somebody. A tich up would be very difficult in the UK due to the amount of red tape and proffessional objectivity of those involved but how about Thailand?

I'm happy they worked so hard and fast to find the guilty. But like I said earlier, it's a matter of trust, and transparency, and questions like yours always come up here; your guess is as good as anyone's.

Kat,

I don't think the guy ever said that the shoes were inside the bungalow. Please check post #150 in this thread, that's where the quotes originate from.

Hadrian,

To the best of my knowledge, DNA samples can't be messed around with.

If they fit, they're guilty. AFAIK they not only confessed but also the DNA evidence fits them.

What I don't understand, the police claims that the DNA samples ties both of them to the murder but one guy refuses to plead guilty on the rape charge. That doesn't make sense to me.

Limbos, I was talking about shoes left outside. That would have to be the case or the Scottish guy could not have seen them.

I don't think you can fake a DNA test, but who else has seen the results? I think I'm just being super paranoid, because I can't see why else these guys would confess to a rapemurder.

[Hadrian1]

I am sure that DNA samles are conclusive, but what I am saying is, is it at all possible to question where the samples come from? And before anybody attacks me for questioning, I really do hope that they have the correct men but I didn't like the way the PM ordered the police to find him/them.......

[Felix Lynn]

Thanks for the link lv2play...this is the latest...

BANGKOK, Thailand (CNN) -- Thai police who have arrested two fishermen said they have confessed to raping and killing a British tourist, whose body was found a week ago, floating off a beach near the Koh Samui Island Resort.

The men, in their 20s, told police on Monday they were drunk when they spotted 21-year-old Katherine Horton walking alone on a beach, talking on her cell phone.

Police quoted the men as saying they beat the college student with a wooden club, raped her and threw her body in the sea.

Police Maj. Gen. Aswin Khanmuang, the officer in charge of the case, said the men were brought to Bangkok for DNA tests.

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra insisted that Horton's killers be found, saying the publicity was damaging the country's image and tourism industry.

[limbos]

They now have these two men's DNA profiles and the 'samples' from within the body of the victim. Could anybody tell me if they are matched then that would be conclusive? What I mean is, there is not way that they would be 'made' to match is there? I just didn't like the fact that the PM ordered the police to find the culprits. The police should be doing their utpmost in any case. What would happen if there was no DNA match and the PM had ordered the police to find somebody. A tich up would be very difficult in the UK due to the amount of red tape and proffessional objectivity of those involved but how about Thailand?

I'm happy they worked so hard and fast to find the guilty. But like I said earlier, it's a matter of trust, and transparency, and questions like yours always come up here; your guess is as good as anyone's.

Kat,

I don't think the guy ever said that the shoes were inside the bungalow. Please check post #150 in this thread, that's where the quotes originate from.

Hadrian,

To the best of my knowledge, DNA samples can't be messed around with.

If they fit, they're guilty. AFAIK they not only confessed but also the DNA evidence fits them.

What I don't understand, the police claims that the DNA samples ties both of them to the murder but one guy refuses to plead guilty on the rape charge. That doesn't make sense to me.

Limbos, I was talking about shoes left outside. That would have to be the case or the Scottish guy could not have seen them.

I don't think you can fake a DNA test, but who else has seen the results? I think I'm just being super paranoid, because I can't see why else these guys would confess to a rapemurder.

Hi Kat,

He said that at 2:30 the shoes were still outside but in the morning they were gone.

As far as the DNA samples go, let's hope these are the culprits.

TV 3 didn't exclude the possibility that more people may have been involved.

[treefrog]

We came back from the UK on the 3rd Jan and this case was all over the news there. A news correspondent who has lived in Thailand for 13 years said in an interview on UK TV that in fact Thailand is NOT a safe place for tourists and that there are dozens of rapes of both Thai and tourist women every year. It seems that the government is more concerned about a negative image of Thailand affecting tourism than actually preventing these crimes in the first place.

The problem is that when people are on holiday they don't tend to think of the idyllic beach where they sunbathed during the day as being dangerous at night, especially when they are only a few yards from other people. But the fact is, these guys deliberately went out to rape someone and they knew how and where they could do it - and it probably wasn't the first time. If the government are so concerned about tourist safety (not to mention that of the locals), why aren't the beaches patrolled at night, at least in the most popular areas?

l

What I don't understand, the police claims that the DNA samples ties both of them to the murder but one guy refuses to plead guilty on the rape charge. That doesn't make sense to me.

I noticed that too. Maybe he got excited enough watching to leave traces of semen on the body? Or maybe he's just lying...though as he's confessed to being an accessory to murder that doesn't make sense either.

I'm not in favour of the death penalty either, but in the case of this type of vicious, premeditated crime I could make an exception. People who can do these things can never be freed, and they aren't worth the cost of imprisoning for life. I'm in favour of much harsher penalties for rape all over the world. Having been raped myself, I know that the horrific impact it has on the victim and their family and friends for years afterward is probably as bad as murder. It's time rape was seen as a serious crime, because you never recover and you are never the same person as you were.

[sriracha john]

The whole thing about the DNA matching is that IS possible to fake the results in that the labelling of specimens is easy to switch around (assuming the worst type of conspiracy to convict "someone" which the authorities under so much pressure might consider doing)...

For example, by labelling the specimen provided by the accused as the specimen obtained from the victim.

The DNA test itself can not be rigged... but what could be rigged is the labelling of the sources of all these specimens...

[Hadrian1]

Yes, Sriracha John, that is what I meant. I hope it is not the case though......

[sriracha john]

Yes, Sriracha John, that is what I meant. I hope it is not the case though......

It's entirely within the realm of possibility... particularly in light of other cases in which evidence has been "rearranged" to suit the desires of the police and/or the well-connected, eg. MP Hangthong Thammawattana's suicide?/murder?. I see they are going to be conducting an amazing THIRD autopsy on his corpse because every time they do one, they come up with different results.

As DNA testing is relatively new to Thailand forensics...it seems to be misunderstood that it is the be all to end all...

It CAN be a huge help in solving cases... IF it's done correctly and above board and with no hanky panky being done with the specimens.

[phuketsiam]

I think its a set up, the way the top brass have pressured for a quick result to save face, and all contradictory reports coming out, saying they new had who done it two days before they charged anyone, there is just to many inconstistancies here, it sticks, they found a couple of no-hopers to stick the blame on, in all the name of saving face.

I always thought Thai Justice was an oxymoron and this just another example, but top brass like it like that, it suits them

I feel so sorry for girls family and stitching up a couple of dirt poor fishermen ain't gonna change a thing

[LaoPo]

I think its a set up, the way the top brass have pressured for a quick result to save face, and all contradictory reports coming out, saying they new had who done it two days before they charged anyone, there is just to many inconstistancies here, it sticks, they found a couple of no-hopers to stick the blame on, in all the name of saving face.

I always thought Thai Justice was an oxymoron and this just another example, but top brass like it like that, it suits them

I feel so sorry for girls family and stitching up a couple of dirt poor fishermen ain't gonna change a thing

I would be very careful what you say here, since you have no proof of such a 'set-up' (neither do we).

They had SO many people (more than 25 as I recall) on the 'suspect-list', including Farang men...WHY would they do such a horrible thing as 'setting up' poor firshermen? For the moment let's have just a little faith and trust in the expertise of the forensic experts from BKK. I may assume they (unfortunately) learned a lot with forensics due to the Tsunami vistims.

In this tragic murder I don't see WHY DNA- and forensic experts from Bangkok would 'commit' such a set-up.

LaoPo

[evadgib]

Hadrian,

To the best of my knowledge, DNA samples can't be messed around with.

If they fit, they're guilty. AFAIK they not only confessed but also the DNA evidence fits them.

Its suprisingly easy to tamper with DNA evidence, look at the fuss re princess dianas driver! The best hope in this particular case is that UK authorities obtain DNA profiles at the 2nd autopsy (in UK); my point being that the body reached UK BEFORE this pair were detained & therefore if any DNA profiles match the suspects it effectively places Col Plum in the study with the lead pipe.....

Edited January 9, 2006 by evadgib

[FlightRisk]

There is a saying here in Thailand, "DTA," "don't trust anyone." So I am always suspect of these kinds of investigations and confessions. I personally know of at one foreigner who "fell" from his balcony, and the cirucmstances surrounding it would bring even the most gullible person to other conclusions in a jiffy. So pardon me for being a skeptic. That said, I hope that if these really are the culprits, and the evidence has not been rearranged to suit a quick public closure, that these guys end up looking down the wrong end of a bunch of rifle barrels.

It's hard not to be cynical about the enforcemen situation if you've lived here for any length of time and studied the corruption issues (they are well documented, much of this by Thai university profs, btw). My biggest question about this, is the contradictory statements regarding the ocean currents and the location where she was found the next day. Doesn't match up with the "we dragged the body out 20 meters from shore" statement. Perhaps this has been cleared up in the meantime?

- FR

[sriracha john]

I don't see WHY DNA- and forensic experts from Bangkok would 'commit' such a set-up.

In a word..... "face"

Edited January 9, 2006 by sriracha john

[phuketsiam]

First they said she wasn't raped, then they said she was, then they said they knew who the killers were, then it took two more days to charge them, then say said they would test the DNA and that was positive and then the killers confessed, I mean it all so dodgy, you don't need to fake the DNS test, for all we know they didn't even do one, who is going to check? there's more but do you really need it?