Manchester United

[sanmiguellight]

Its the charity shield no one has ever given a <deleted> about it and i'm sure old man fergie couldnt care less despite his predictable drones.

Its a friendly for CHARITY!

[bkkjames]

Typical Ballack...

anyways more concerned about the lack of chances in the second half. I do believe we will make one last dip into the transfer market.

[StevieH]

thought evra was a disgrace and should have been sent off for that blatant playacting.

[bkkjames]

thought evra was a disgrace and should have been sent off for that blatant playacting.

what the <removed> are you on about stevie, do I need to send you the clip? compared to ballack falling down when he lost the ball and Foy blowing immediately with us just outside the box, evra was tagged pretty hard in comparison - in front of the ref, 40 yards from our goal.

should have been a yellow minimum and a free kick.

[dave111223]

Foster flops

http://blog.soccershirtsonline.com/foster-flops/

I know in my previous post about Ben Foster I said that he would probably make a few bad mistakes in his first games but Sir Alex should stick with him and let him gain confidence…but even I am having trouble agreeing with that advice now.

Foster’s performance in the Community Shield yesterday was, in my opinion, a shocker. I can’t remember one back pass that he didn’t slice off into the stands, or get the ball stuck under his feet and almost get caught in possession.

Even the few saves he had to make, from average long distance shots, he managed to spill; luckily there were no Chelsea players running on. He did make one decent save to deny Drogba, but everything else he did was suspect.

He almost always stayed at home on corners allowing Chelsea free reign in the 6 yard box; looking like they were going to score from every corner.

I still have to stick by my original post and say that Ferguson has got stick with him, but I think if he doesn’t perform in the next 2 or 3 games he will have blown his chance big time.

[dave111223]

SAF Penalty Roster?

http://blog.soccershirtsonline.com/saf-penalty-roster/

There are so many topics that could be written about the great community shield match between Manchester United and Chelsea. But one subject which has been bothering me is Sir Alex Ferguson’s penalty taker selection.

First he sent up Giggs with his years of experience, and having won the community shield 7 times already; you can’t fault that decision. Giggs uncharacteristically missed, but these things happen some times.

Next he sent up Carrick; not a striker, but he can put the ball just about anywhere he wants. Carrick stuck the penalty away well.

This is where SAF lost me; his third penalty taker was Patrice Evra?? At which point I assumed Evra was in fact a secret master of penalties, which he had proved to Ferguson on the training ground. But his penalty was predictably terrible; not sure he was trying to score or warm up the keeper.

Why when you have players such as Rooney, Owen, Scholes, would you pick Evra to take a penalty? He really has got me baffled.

[StevieH]

thought evra was a disgrace and should have been sent off for that blatant playacting.

what the <removed> are you on about stevie, do I need to send you the clip? compared to ballack falling down when he lost the ball and Foy blowing immediately with us just outside the box, evra was tagged pretty hard in comparison - in front of the ref, 40 yards from our goal.

should have been a yellow minimum and a free kick.

hahaha. far, far too easy.

[StevieH]

SAF Penalty Roster?

http://blog.soccershirtsonline.com/saf-penalty-roster/

There are so many topics that could be written about the great community shield match between Manchester United and Chelsea. But one subject which has been bothering me is Sir Alex Ferguson's penalty taker selection.

First he sent up Giggs with his years of experience, and having won the community shield 7 times already; you can't fault that decision. Giggs uncharacteristically missed, but these things happen some times.

Next he sent up Carrick; not a striker, but he can put the ball just about anywhere he wants. Carrick stuck the penalty away well.

This is where SAF lost me; his third penalty taker was Patrice Evra?? At which point I assumed Evra was in fact a secret master of penalties, which he had proved to Ferguson on the training ground. But his penalty was predictably terrible; not sure he was trying to score or warm up the keeper.

Why when you have players such as Rooney, Owen, Scholes, would you pick Evra to take a penalty? He really has got me baffled.

you don't pick players to take penalties, they volunteer. some players have the mentality and the psyche for taking penoes, some don't. owen for example has a terrible record from the spot. that said i wouldn't have let evra near one, his head was gone.

[dave111223]

you don't pick players to take penalties, they volunteer. some players have the mentality and the psyche for taking penoes, some don't. owen for example has a terrible record from the spot. that said i wouldn't have let evra near one, his head was gone.

Ok maybe Owen was shying away; but your telling me that Rooney wasn't there asking to take one? And scholes was off hiding? No way.

I do reckon Evra (who was pretty heated at point) went and demanded a chance at revenge through a penalty...at which point SAF should have told him to go take a cold shower, not "go on then son"

[StevieH]

you don't pick players to take penalties, they volunteer. some players have the mentality and the psyche for taking penoes, some don't. owen for example has a terrible record from the spot. that said i wouldn't have let evra near one, his head was gone.

Ok maybe Owen was shying away; but your telling me that Rooney wasn't there asking to take one? And scholes was off hiding? No way.

I do reckon Evra (who was pretty heated at point) went and demanded a chance at revenge through a penalty...at which point SAF should have told him to go take a cold shower, not "go on then son"

i don't know about rooney, i don't remember him taking many penalties as ronaldo always took them. owen's just crap at them probably because he has to think about what he's doing where he doesn't with his instinctive finishes during the course of a match. can't remember scholes taking many in his career either which suggests he's not got the mentality for it.

it's less about technique than bottle this. so just suggesting your main attacking players doesn't work.

[dave111223]

i don't know about rooney, i don't remember him taking many penalties as ronaldo always took them. owen's just crap at them probably because he has to think about what he's doing where he doesn't with his instinctive finishes during the course of a match. can't remember scholes taking many in his career either which suggests he's not got the mentality for it.

it's less about technique than bottle this. so just suggesting your main attacking players doesn't work.

Oh come on, it's not the World Cup final we're talking about here. There's not a player on the United team who doesn't have the bottle to take a penalty at a community shield...

To suggest that a fullback who's hardly ever taken penalties is given the nod because he's the only player on the United team that had the bottle for it is crazy.

[StevieH]

i don't know about rooney, i don't remember him taking many penalties as ronaldo always took them. owen's just crap at them probably because he has to think about what he's doing where he doesn't with his instinctive finishes during the course of a match. can't remember scholes taking many in his career either which suggests he's not got the mentality for it.

it's less about technique than bottle this. so just suggesting your main attacking players doesn't work.

Oh come on, it's not the World Cup final we're talking about here. There's not a player on the United team who doesn't have the bottle to take a penalty at a community shield...

To suggest that a fullback who's hardly ever taken penalties is given the nod because he's the only player on the United team that had the bottle for it is crazy.

ask anyone in the game how you pick your five for a shootout and the answer will always be the same - it's them that volunteer and want to take one. i would imagine that rooney was slated to have the fifth one but where were senior pros like scholes, ferdinand and berbatov?

[mrtoad]

thought evra was a disgrace and should have been sent off for that blatant playacting.

Of course StevieG never does anything, and it was actually a blatant foul. Maybe you should have had a look at <deleted> for play acting.

[nev]

Mr toad i think stevieH was fishing.

Edited August 10, 2009 by nev

[MSingh]

I thoguth you played well yesterday Chaps, were better in the First Half obviously..

The Evra/Ballck stuff was greta in my opinion & the Ref was WAY OFF with the Bookign, it wasn't even a Foul, it was a strong, fair tackle & fair play to Ballack for getting straight up & having a smile about it all..

Ref done himself no favours at all of course by stopping play for the first Ballack incident then letting would should have been thought of in real time as a head injury to Evra..

[mrtoad]

Mr toad i think stevieH was fishing.

Yeah, I realised that after posting - but couldn't be bothered to edit it.

[StevieH]

thought evra was a disgrace and should have been sent off for that blatant playacting.

Of course StevieG never does anything, and it was actually a blatant foul. Maybe you should have had a look at <deleted> for play acting.

who mentioned gerrard? evra quite clearly smacked ballack's shoulder with his chest then went down holding his face a la rivaldo. i was shocked i don't mind telling you. there's no place for that kind of simulation in the game.

[dave111223]

who mentioned gerrard? evra quite clearly smacked ballack's shoulder with his chest then went down holding his face a la rivaldo. i was shocked i don't mind telling you. there's no place for that kind of simulation in the game.

That's strange seeing as the video shows Ballack shoulder charging Evra's face:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e55sUA1N_5A'

Edited August 10, 2009 by dave111223

[nev]

with the ref looking right at it.

pretty obvious foul to me.

[LeungKen]

I have read most of the posts re this game and still feel I have to put my 2 Bob's worth in.

First off Foster had a very off game, no doubt about it. He seemed to be as nervous as a bride on a wedding night, probably as Fergie gave him the benefit of the doubt in front of Kuzczak (Who would have got the nod for my starting 11, the other being Valencia instead of Park, or maybe Nani) Foster's fumbles seemed to ripple through the team at times and caused a lack of confidence unnecessarilly.

Nani whilst he scored the first goal didn't do enough around the park and still needs either to mature quickly or go and sit down and watch all the videos of Ryan Giggs matches for the last 15 years or so.

The Ballack /Evra incident was (after watching the video several times) a blatant foul (which I see Ballack has admitted as much, as per the post match interview) It was a blatant forearm smash to the upper chest and neck of Evra plus a full body-check or obstruction.

Having said all that, when I lay in bed going over the game in my head and awarding imaginary player rankings, I have to say that as a team Chelseas probably just edged it.

Man United have a good squad, which should see us through the season, I feel sure Fergie will rectify the couple of weak areas that we have, the main one for me is the midfield (If Hargreaves were fit my worries would be over - though his future is looking even less promising by all accounts) this weakness in midfield causes both Rooney & Berbatov to drop too deep.

Finally the penalty shoot out - I think we probably all agree it's not an ideal way to decide a game. If Giggsy took another 20 he'd have scored every time. That set the scene for me and with the way Foster's game had gone there was no way he was going to make amends.

So I have to say well done Chelsea, but the Ballack forearm-smash was an absolute disgrace as was the match officials handling of it.

[MSingh]

Surely the Evra/Ballack incident issue isn't whether iot was a Foul or not ( because it certainly was ) because i thought the Ref allowed the advantage with Man Ure in possession of the Ball about 30 Yards or so away from Chelsea's Goal & in an attacking position..

They did however lose the Ball after the Ref, i thought allowed teh advantage..

I thought the issue here was teh Ref not stopping play for what was a head injury, where they are instructed not to take any chances at all in case of serious injury ??

As i said before, the Ref didn't do himself any favours at all by stopping play for a previous Ballack " injury " which wasn't head related, & failing to stop play for the Evra thing, not for a Foul, but for a head Injury ??

[StevieH]

Surely the Evra/Ballack incident issue isn't whether iot was a Foul or not ( because it certainly was ) because i thought the Ref allowed the advantage with Man Ure in possession of the Ball about 30 Yards or so away from Chelsea's Goal & in an attacking position..

They did however lose the Ball after the Ref, i thought allowed teh advantage..

I thought the issue here was teh Ref not stopping play for what was a head injury, where they are instructed not to take any chances at all in case of serious injury ??

As i said before, the Ref didn't do himself any favours at all by stopping play for a previous Ballack " injury " which wasn't head related, & failing to stop play for the Evra thing, not for a Foul, but for a head Injury ??

this is where it all gets a bit disingenuous though isn't it? of course it was a foul, it was a blatant bodycheck made to look like evra had just collided with ballack, but you're right, the ref did play the advantage and united took it. then when they lost the ball they want the free-kick, and that isn't the way it works. didn't help evra's cause that he went down holding his face in absolutel agony yet was up and running about berating the ref after chelsea had scored.

[MSingh]

Surely the Evra/Ballack incident issue isn't whether iot was a Foul or not ( because it certainly was ) because i thought the Ref allowed the advantage with Man Ure in possession of the Ball about 30 Yards or so away from Chelsea's Goal & in an attacking position..

They did however lose the Ball after the Ref, i thought allowed teh advantage..

I thought the issue here was teh Ref not stopping play for what was a head injury, where they are instructed not to take any chances at all in case of serious injury ??

As i said before, the Ref didn't do himself any favours at all by stopping play for a previous Ballack " injury " which wasn't head related, & failing to stop play for the Evra thing, not for a Foul, but for a head Injury ??

this is where it all gets a bit disingenuous though isn't it? of course it was a foul, it was a blatant bodycheck made to look like evra had just collided with ballack, but you're right, the ref did play the advantage and united took it. then when they lost the ball they want the free-kick, and that isn't the way it works. didn't help evra's cause that he went down holding his face in absolutel agony yet was up and running about berating the ref after chelsea had scored.

Exactly so in that case then Stevie, the Ref still should have stopped the Game, but not necessarily gave Man Ure a Free Kick, because of a head Injury & without doubt the Ref saw that it was a head injury as Evra, rightly or wrongly, was holding his head & the Refs are instructed to not take any chances with the potential problems head injuries can have..

There lies the problem & THAT is where the Ref made a mistake, not whether it was a Free Kick or not...

[StevieH]

Surely the Evra/Ballack incident issue isn't whether iot was a Foul or not ( because it certainly was ) because i thought the Ref allowed the advantage with Man Ure in possession of the Ball about 30 Yards or so away from Chelsea's Goal & in an attacking position..

They did however lose the Ball after the Ref, i thought allowed teh advantage..

I thought the issue here was teh Ref not stopping play for what was a head injury, where they are instructed not to take any chances at all in case of serious injury ??

As i said before, the Ref didn't do himself any favours at all by stopping play for a previous Ballack " injury " which wasn't head related, & failing to stop play for the Evra thing, not for a Foul, but for a head Injury ??

this is where it all gets a bit disingenuous though isn't it? of course it was a foul, it was a blatant bodycheck made to look like evra had just collided with ballack, but you're right, the ref did play the advantage and united took it. then when they lost the ball they want the free-kick, and that isn't the way it works. didn't help evra's cause that he went down holding his face in absolutel agony yet was up and running about berating the ref after chelsea had scored.

Exactly so in that case then Stevie, the Ref still should have stopped the Game, but not necessarily gave Man Ure a Free Kick, because of a head Injury & without doubt the Ref saw that it was a head injury as Evra, rightly or wrongly, was holding his head & the Refs are instructed to not take any chances with the potential problems head injuries can have..

There lies the problem & THAT is where the Ref made a mistake, not whether it was a Free Kick or not...

don't think it looked like a head injury in real time though, just looked like evra had been blocked off - not an elbow and so not a head injury. when players go down holding their head / face for a minor knock they do the game and other players a disservice.

my point is that united can't have it both ways. if evra's team-mates thought it was a head injury, fuc_k the advantage and kick the ball out of play. don't take the advantage and then expect chelsea to do it for you.

[MSingh]

Surely the Evra/Ballack incident issue isn't whether iot was a Foul or not ( because it certainly was ) because i thought the Ref allowed the advantage with Man Ure in possession of the Ball about 30 Yards or so away from Chelsea's Goal & in an attacking position..

They did however lose the Ball after the Ref, i thought allowed teh advantage..

I thought the issue here was teh Ref not stopping play for what was a head injury, where they are instructed not to take any chances at all in case of serious injury ??

As i said before, the Ref didn't do himself any favours at all by stopping play for a previous Ballack " injury " which wasn't head related, & failing to stop play for the Evra thing, not for a Foul, but for a head Injury ??

this is where it all gets a bit disingenuous though isn't it? of course it was a foul, it was a blatant bodycheck made to look like evra had just collided with ballack, but you're right, the ref did play the advantage and united took it. then when they lost the ball they want the free-kick, and that isn't the way it works. didn't help evra's cause that he went down holding his face in absolutel agony yet was up and running about berating the ref after chelsea had scored.

Exactly so in that case then Stevie, the Ref still should have stopped the Game, but not necessarily gave Man Ure a Free Kick, because of a head Injury & without doubt the Ref saw that it was a head injury as Evra, rightly or wrongly, was holding his head & the Refs are instructed to not take any chances with the potential problems head injuries can have..

There lies the problem & THAT is where the Ref made a mistake, not whether it was a Free Kick or not...

don't think it looked like a head injury in real time though, just looked like evra had been blocked off - not an elbow and so not a head injury. when players go down holding their head / face for a minor knock they do the game and other players a disservice.

my point is that united can't have it both ways. if evra's team-mates thought it was a head injury, fuc_k the advantage and kick the ball out of play. don't take the advantage and then expect chelsea to do it for you.

But he was holding his head though Steve wasn't he, you saw that, i saw that & the Ref would have saw that too...

Here, we can all see it now..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K9JSlsEqEc

The Ref should have stopped play because of that & didn't, it's irrelevent whether Mna Ure shouldn't have it both ways or not & it's irrelevent whether Evra was playacting or not, play should have been stopped, by the Referee not either Team, because of a " potential " head injury.

Whether Evra warranted holding his head or not is another matter entirely..

[oldgit]

But the referee didn't stop the play because,in his opinion and at a distance of about 10 yards,it WASN'T a head injury and he was proved right, wasn't he, when the tart raced after him to remonstrate about the goal?.Don't you think he's seen this type of <deleted> before or something?Give the referee his due.

Of course it was a foul due to a blatant bodycheck by Ballack but Foy,in his opinion again,decided that it was to Man. Utd.'s advantage to continue play.After all,Rooney was in the process of running infield when the foul occured and was never going to return the ball to Evra.What would have been HIS reaction if he had gone on and scored and Foy brought the play back?Would he have coated the referee for it or would he have pulled Evra up by his lapels and slagged him off for playacting?We all know the answer to that one.No wonder there's a dearth of professional referees in the game when they have to explain every decision they make.

I remember the 'after timers' reaction on Football Focus when John Dykes asked them if they ever thought of becoming a referee.Beads of sweat appeared on their collective foreheads.They didn't have to reply.

[MSingh]

But the referee didn't stop the play because,in his opinion and at a distance of about 10 yards,it WASN'T a head injury and he was proved right, wasn't he, when the tart raced after him to remonstrate about the goal?.Don't you think he's seen this type of <deleted> before or something?Give the referee his due.

Of course it was a foul due to a blatant bodycheck by Ballack but Foy,in his opinion again,decided that it was to Man. Utd.'s advantage to continue play.After all,Rooney was in the process of running infield when the foul occured and was never going to return the ball to Evra.What would have been HIS reaction if he had gone on and scored and Foy brought the play back?Would he have coated the referee for it or would he have pulled Evra up by his lapels and slagged him off for playacting?We all know the answer to that one.No wonder there's a dearth of professional referees in the game when they have to explain every decision they make.

I remember the 'after timers' reaction on Football Focus when John Dykes asked them if they ever thought of becoming a referee.Beads of sweat appeared on their collective foreheads.They didn't have to reply.

Old Git, i'm not disagreeing about the " Tart " scenario etc, i completely agree with you, but however, i'm pretty sure the Referee's are instructed, where there is the possibility of a head injury, like there was in that situation, to stop play, simple as that & i'll try & have a find of what the actual Law/Rule is on it in a minute..

& i've said that teh Ref played the advantage already, that too isn't the point here because we all agree that's what happened & that bit was good Refereeing..

Refs don't have to explain every decision, they're told to apply the Rules/Laws of the Game & sadly, are not meant to use their Common Sense as when they do, they can suffer demotion to the Football League, that happened a few times last Season..

I don't necessarily agree with these Laws/Rules but they'e there & teh Refs are the one's that have to apply them, simple as that...

[MSingh]

Right, well i've found it but it's still a pretty Grey area i think..

I've highlighted the bits that i think are most relevent..

=============

Law 5 - The referee...

stops the match if, in his opinion, a player is seriously injured and ensures

that he is removed from the field of play. An injured player may only return

to the fi eld of play after the match has restarted

allows play to continue until the ball is out of play if a player is, in his

opinion, only slightly injured

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affeder ... gameen.pdf

The guidance given by the Referee's Association:

If the injury is serious:

For example, if the injury is to the head or neck or is a serious bleeding injury, broken bones, concussion, torn ligaments, or involves breathing difficulties, the Referee should stop play and summon the trainer/medical staff immediately.

Referees should certainly always stop play immediately and summon medical aid if a serious head injury is suspected.

The Referee should try and recognise serious injuries by looking out for body signs such as an inert unconscious body, or obvious pain, or genuine concern expressed by other players near the scene. If there is any doubt as to the seriousness of an injury, (especially if a young child is involved), the Referee must always err on the side of caution by summoning medical aid immediately.

A player's health is far more important than a game of football/soccer.

Summoning the trainer/medical staff, can be done immediately by using a loud whistle, vocal instructions and by waving a beckoning arm/palm towards the Technical Area, or towards the vicinity of where the team’s trainer/medical staff is located.

If there are players injured from both teams, then waving two beckoning arms will clearly show that both of the competing team’s trainers are urgently required.

Assistant Referees should also play their part in summoning on trainers/medical staff in cases of urgency.

In local Park level football, when there are no medically qualified personnel in attendance, professional assistance should be quickly obtained for serious injuries, and the advice offered, acted upon.

==============

Based on that ruling & the Refs interpretaion of the incident, it seems the Old Git was right & that Foy just thought he had " seen that type of <deleted> before " & that type of <deleted> can only be considered as Play acting & a Yellow Card should then be issued surely, after Chelsea scored ??

Just thought i'd throw that into the mixer...

[mrbojangles]

Bladdy heck, what a load of palaver over nothing. You can tell the real season hasn't started yet cos this type of incident wouldn't get 5 minutes airtime when the season starts proper.

[MSingh]

Bladdy heck, what a load of palaver over nothing. You can tell the real season hasn't started yet cos this type of incident wouldn't get 5 minutes airtime when the season starts proper.

Well it did cost them a Goal & argubly the first Trophy of the Season..

Something that mine & your lot wouldn't mind in the slightest...