flamesfan Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The only fair way to resolve this matter is to hold a public referendum. It should be worded clearly and concisely so the Thai people will understand it's meaning. " Should Thaskin be allowed to return to return to Thailand and granted amnesty?" Yes or No. An addendum should be added to this as well. Part (. "If you vote yes, should Thaskin relinquish all illegal monies acquired during his time in office?" Let the people decide. I am sure it would give everyone a proper perspective on what the Thai people would like to happen. I, myself would think it would be a very interesting referendum which would be difficult to predict in this country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaicbr Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own partyHe is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Wow. You know an awful lot about the Democrats. Is it what you learnt watching RED tv?? sent from my Wellcom A90+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Which translates to 'he wants to reform the party from the classic old ways of Thai corruption', that alone is enough to make untrusted and controversial in ANY party in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Which translates to 'he wants to reform the party from the classic old ways of Thai corruption', that alone is enough to make untrusted and controversial in ANY party in Thailand. I wish you were right Unfortunately for the past 10 years, with his alliance with the Junta, the PAD and Newin, he showed how weak he is. You're right, to take on corruption, the drug trade .. will make you no friends. But it was Thasksin, not Abhisit, who started the war on drug. Edited June 19, 2012 by JurgenG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. How do you know this? He resigned as leader after the last election and was promptly voted back in! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaicbr Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Which translates to 'he wants to reform the party from the classic old ways of Thai corruption', that alone is enough to make untrusted and controversial in ANY party in Thailand. I wish you were right Unfortunately for the past 10 years, with his alliance with the Junta, the PAD and Newin, he showed how weak he is. You're right, to take on corruption, the drug trade .. will make you no friends. But it was Thasksin, not Abhisit, who started the war on drug. Thaksin arranged the murder of over 2500 thais under the war on drugs sent from my Wellcom A90+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. How do you know this? He resigned as leader after the last election and was promptly voted back in! True. But it doesn't really make sense. Abhisit is widely seen as responsible for the defeat for the last election. As far as I know, the Bangkok elite wanted Korn to replace Abhisit. But I guess Korn was seen as even more out of touch with the general population than Abhisit. Honestly the democrats have a lot of soul searching to do before they can hope to win any nation-wide election Edited June 19, 2012 by JurgenG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltandpepper Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. How do you know this? He resigned as leader after the last election and was promptly voted back in! True. But it doesn't really make sense. Abhisit is widely seen as responsible for the defeat for the last election. As far as I know, the Bangkok elite wanted Korn to replace Abhisit. But I guess Korn was seen as even more out of touch with the general population than Abhisit. Honestly the democrats have a lot of soul searching to do before they can hope to win any nation-wide election preposterous assumption based on nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Suthep, a truly honest politician. It would not surprise me at all if Thaksin is making overtures in the background with people who matter ... But I can't see how that would include Suthep. While nothing is impossible, where is the advantage for either the PTP or the Democrats in this alleged proposal? It doesn't make sense... Suthep is the "real PM" when Mark was the puppet. He was the real power broker then, to form Mark's govt. However he did do a good job running the country which in whole or in part let to 98 death and 2,000= injured. Hence DEM was not re-elected. Splendid! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Honestly, where does this stupid idea come from ? I know that the democrats are trying to get rid of Abhisit for quite some time but to believe that PT is going to accept him ... It's not PT trying to accept him, it's Thaksin. And Thaksin is lord and master of PT, their MPs are merely Thaksin's employees. I didn't know the Democrats were trying to get rid of Apisit, just a few months ago they voted overwhelmingly to reinstate him as leader. Don't startle him with too much reality in one post. You need to do so gradually, a bit at a time when so many things are being misunderstood. Still, thanks for taking the time for doing so for the benefit of the forum..... Again. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moruya Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. How do you know this? He resigned as leader after the last election and was promptly voted back in! True. But it doesn't really make sense. Abhisit is widely seen as responsible for the defeat for the last election. As far as I know, the Bangkok elite wanted Korn to replace Abhisit. But I guess Korn was seen as even more out of touch with the general population than Abhisit. Honestly the democrats have a lot of soul searching to do before they can hope to win any nation-wide election sounds a bit Hans Christian Andersen to me..... I guess the Dems could try lying, cheating and nepotism in spades - but it wouldn't fit with their commendable eithics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Thaksin is a truly dangerous individual, and he scares me. What he might do in the future scares me. I love this country and my family lives here. I don't want to see it destroyed in the way other countries have been destroyed by similar people throughout history. If that means civil war...well, sometimes wars are necessary to defeat evil. Be careful what you wish for....your side might lose. I would suggest that civil wars are never necessary, I've seen what they do to a country. I suspect that you, and the others here that espouse the idea haven't. Your attempt to take the moral high ground is commendable, however your attempted slur that I espouse war is disingenuous. I wish for nothing of the sort. I sincerely hope that when it comes to witnessing it you can continue to be alone in that rather dubious honor. What I do recognize however is that there may be no alternative, and no matter how distasteful war would be, allowing Thaksin to resume his tyranny over this country may turn out to be far worse. Certainly the world would be a much different place had those who espoused appeasement of Hitler not continued in their futile quest for as long as they did. I simply recognize that given the choice between two evils, it is often necessary to accept the lesser one. I would be overjoyed to accept neither if someone could provide a realistic third option. However, short of supporting an action by a special operations force that we are explicitly not allowed to voice support for by the rules of this forum, I can see no other way out of the current dilemma. My point is that to those who support Thaksin and think he isn't as bad as described, I sincerely encourage you to put your bias aside, open your mind and look again. If you haven't personally engaged him, you have no idea what you are saying, nor how truly dangerous he is. I think we have reached a deadlock here. You have personal experience of Thaksin, and as you have said elsewhere he has wronged you. You regard him as the worst of all evils that could befall Thailand. I have the experience of Civil War (several tours in Former Yugoslavia in the early 90s whilst serving in the British Army). This has led me to believe that anything would be preferable to a civil war in Thailand. I would far rather have Thaksin back in power with all his faults than a civil war. Both may be considered "evils", we differ fundamentally on which is the greater. I doubt if anything will change either of our convictions. Maybe we should leave it up to the Thais and their version of the democratic process - silly thing to say - we have to anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Honestly, where does this stupid idea come from ? I know that the democrats are trying to get rid of Abhisit for quite some time but to believe that PT is going to accept him ... It's not PT trying to accept him, it's Thaksin. And Thaksin is lord and master of PT, their MPs are merely Thaksin's employees. I didn't know the Democrats were trying to get rid of Apisit, just a few months ago they voted overwhelmingly to reinstate him as leader. Don't startle him with too much reality in one post. You need to do so gradually, a bit at a time when so many things are being misunderstood. Still, thanks for taking the time for doing so for the benefit of the forum..... Again. . . Oh, you're back, and speaking for all of the forum again it seems. Please explain how the above post "benefits the forum"? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Abhisit is widely seen as responsible for the defeat for the last election. As far as I know, the Bangkok elite wanted Korn to replace Abhisit. But I guess Korn was seen as even more out of touch Thanks for all the great info. You're welcome ! Of course you're aware of all that but it can be useful for some new comers. Btw, is it ok to take someone else post and modify it, change the header ... ? In other forums it's frown upon but I'm not so sure about the etiquette in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Abhisit is widely seen as responsible for the defeat for the last election. As far as I know, the Bangkok elite wanted Korn to replace Abhisit. But I guess Korn was seen as even more out of touch Thanks for all the great info. You're welcome ! Of course you're aware of all that but it can be useful for some new comers. Btw, is it ok to take someone else post and modify it, change the header ... ? In other forums it's frown upon but I'm not so sure about the etiquette in this forum. something like rule number 30 or 31 - but mod-wannabes don't need to follow the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Honestly, where does this stupid idea come from ? I know that the democrats are trying to get rid of Abhisit for quite some time but to believe that PT is going to accept him ... Thanks ... for the benefit of the forum..... Again. You're most welcome 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Right ... that explains why he was re-elected as party leader. You seem to have a lot of inside party information. Why did people that hold him responsible for the election defeat and think that he's arrogant and out of tough with reality vote him back as leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Right ... that explains why he was re-elected as party leader. You seem to have a lot of inside party information. Why did people that hold him responsible for the election defeat and think that he's arrogant and out of tough with reality vote him back as leader? Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But you seem to be so close to them. You're the one saying how much they don't like Abhisit. It seems that the Thaksin proxy parties don't seem to learn much either. Thaksin tried to change laws to suit himself ... got dumped. PPP tried to change laws to suit Thaksin ... got dumped. PTP ... on the same track, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionchaser45 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But you seem to be so close to them. You're the one saying how much they don't like Abhisit. It seems that the Thaksin proxy parties don't seem to learn much either. Thaksin tried to change laws to suit himself ... got dumped. PPP tried to change laws to suit Thaksin ... got dumped. PTP ... on the same track, it seems. It is one thing to get "dumped" by the electorate and quite another to get "dumped" by a military coup or creative courtroom wrangling. The Democrats couldn't win a general election if they paid everybody twice what the majority party was ever accused of paying out. That is a cold hard fact that the opposition party fails to acknowledge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But you seem to be so close to them. You're the one saying how much they don't like Abhisit. It seems that the Thaksin proxy parties don't seem to learn much either. Thaksin tried to change laws to suit himself ... got dumped. PPP tried to change laws to suit Thaksin ... got dumped. PTP ... on the same track, it seems. True, most democrats don't like Abhisit. It's nothing new. He is a loser, who like losers ? Actually the democrats knew they were going to lose the July 2011 election and Abhisit was the perfect fall guy . Why he is still here ? Probably too early to introduce the new guy. All the fights the democrats are engaged in are lost battles. They have the perfect fall guy for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaicbr Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But you seem to be so close to them. You're the one saying how much they don't like Abhisit. It seems that the Thaksin proxy parties don't seem to learn much either. Thaksin tried to change laws to suit himself ... got dumped. PPP tried to change laws to suit Thaksin ... got dumped. PTP ... on the same track, it seems. It is one thing to get "dumped" by the electorate and quite another to get "dumped" by a military coup or creative courtroom wrangling. The Democrats couldn't win a general election if they paid everybody twice what the majority party was ever accused of paying out. That is a cold hard fact that the opposition party fails to acknowledge. That is NOT a cold hard fact. An iceberg is a cold hard fact. sent from my Wellcom A90+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 True, most democrats don't like Abhisit. It's nothing new. He is a loser, who like losers ? Actually the democrats knew they were going to lose the July 2011 election and Abhisit was the perfect fall guy . Why he is still here ? Probably too early to introduce the new guy. All the fights the democrats are engaged in are lost battles. They have the perfect fall guy for that. True?? I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Don't ask me, ask them. They keep on losing election after election but they keep the same leaders. Do you know the definition of insanity ? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. But you seem to be so close to them. You're the one saying how much they don't like Abhisit. It seems that the Thaksin proxy parties don't seem to learn much either. Thaksin tried to change laws to suit himself ... got dumped. PPP tried to change laws to suit Thaksin ... got dumped. PTP ... on the same track, it seems. It is one thing to get "dumped" by the electorate and quite another to get "dumped" by a military coup or creative courtroom wrangling. The Democrats couldn't win a general election if they paid everybody twice what the majority party was ever accused of paying out. That is a cold hard fact that the opposition party fails to acknowledge. It didn't stop them from being dumped ... and they're going in the same direction now with trying to whitewash Thaksin's crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayboy Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Every MP has already signed an undated letter of resignation, which is kept by him. Are you sure about that? Can you prove it? As to your post, despite the ratty tone, I'm not sure there's anything new there.I wouldn't quarrel with the general diagnosis but it's hardly unusual for ambitious politicians to use their parties for personal advancement.Lust for power goes with the territory.Putting feelers out to possible allies is hardly unusual, nor is the denial of such feelers when rejected - as seems to be the case here.I can think of umpteen examples in other countries.What's interesting to me is the presumption that the unelected elites might be interested in compromise - don't really buy the Shaun Crispin line.I It might be comforting to defenders of the status quo that the Redshirt movement would wither and die without Thaksin's cash and organising ability.Too early to say in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Every MP has already signed an undated letter of resignation, which is kept by him. Are you sure about that? Can you prove it? As to your post, despite the ratty tone, I'm not sure there's anything new there.I wouldn't quarrel with the general diagnosis but it's hardly unusual for ambitious politicians to use their parties for personal advancement.Lust for power goes with the territory.Putting feelers out to possible allies is hardly unusual, nor is the denial of such feelers when rejected - as seems to be the case here.I can think of umpteen examples in other countries.What's interesting to me is the presumption that the unelected elites might be interested in compromise - don't really buy the Shaun Crispin line.I It might be comforting to defenders of the status quo that the Redshirt movement would wither and die without Thaksin's cash and organising ability.Too early to say in my view. I would hope they'd be invigorated if they forego Thaksin's cash. Just imagine all the voices and potential leaders that must be getting crowded out and silenced now just to stay on message; Thaksin's message. I WANT them to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phiphidon Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Right ... that explains why he was re-elected as party leader. You seem to have a lot of inside party information. Why did people that hold him responsible for the election defeat and think that he's arrogant and out of tough with reality vote him back as leader? He was the only one who volunteered? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Abhisit is a very controversial figure within his own party He is popular with Bangkok middle class women but that's it. A lot of people within his own party hold him responsible for the defeat in the last election. Even within his own party, he is seen as arrogant and out of touch with reality. Right ... that explains why he was re-elected as party leader. You seem to have a lot of inside party information. Why did people that hold him responsible for the election defeat and think that he's arrogant and out of tough with reality vote him back as leader? He was the only one who volunteered? He was the only one that was nominated. He got 96% of the vote, so it seems that the people who didn't want him could have abstained. Edited June 19, 2012 by whybother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaiphoon Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 1 post has been removed for altering a member quote. The poster should know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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