What Was Thailand Like Years Ago

[sabaijai]

<snip> there were the odd groups of special forces in the area <snip>

Nignoy, I'd be curious to know what role the special forces were playing in Thailand in the mid-60's. I've tried to get some info on the Internet but came up dry. If you happen to know, that is.

Try finding a copy of Roger Warner's book Back Fire, which focuses on legendary spook Bill Lair who ran a fairly successful resistance movement in Laos until the US generals in Saigon interfered. Lair was a spook who had gone native in that he spoke fluent Thai and had a Thai wife. He was also a close friend of His Majesty. All in all a very interesting book about a not-so-ugly American.

To the best of my knowledge there were never any "VC" units or even Pathet Lao units active in Thailand. There were "Chinese communists" down south and up in the hills in the north. The Thai government once ran a very good anti-communist program, aided by events in the People Republic, to take the steam out of this particular insurgency. Up north the government simply began to take an interest up in the hills where the "commies" were active and made efforts to establish a sense of Thai identity amongst the minority hill people by building roads and schools. (My wife was a pre-school teacher in a minority village in the hills under a program run by the Thai Social Welfare Department, orignially funded by the CIA, and based upon the American Head Start program.) The communists down south were isolated in the deep jungles, neither welcomed by the Thais or the Malays, and eventually handed in their weapons to Thai officials in a public ceremony back in the 1980s. Of course while the government was dealing effectively with the small true communist insurgency, they were at the same time labeling every critic of the government, from Thai labor leaders to conservative monarchists like Sulak Srivaraksa, as communists. The nadir of this madness was the monk Khittbutto declaring that killing a communist was not a sin (mai baap).

That's Kittivutho Bhikku, who said 'Killing communists is like placing fish in a monk's bowl.'

The HQ of the CPT was located in Phitsanulok province and til this day there is still a museum there and remnants of the offices, bunkers etc....

It can be argued that the CPT never really were a threat to the country. Since the fall of the CPT in 1981 at the hands of PM Gen Prem Titsunalonda (who it could be said is Thailand's best ever PM) the stories which have emerged have shown a much tamer side to the CPT than was originally thought.

Quite obviously, most of the CPT members who run off to to the jungles and joined the party after the disillusionment of, firstly Oct 73 and then 1976 - did so because there was no other political alternative.

As has been mentioned, this period of Thai history saw a witch-hunt similar to that of MacCarthy's. The student activists of the era therefore, who after being brandished Communists - just became that exact thing. A lot of these CPT leaders who include Ajarn Thirayuth of Thammasart University a (harsh critic of Thaksin's) are, til this day respected teachers/politicians etc... They too, argue this 'tamer' side to the CPT.

During the MacCarthy style Witch Hunt even one of Thailand's most respected monks The Late Venerable Buddhadasa Bhikku of 'Wat Suan Mokkhe' did not escape the threat of imprisonment for his teachings.

I was first back in Thailand way back in 91 and not before long i was one of those Farang running away from the turmoil on Ratchadamnoern and Black May.

Politically, Thailand hasn't really gotten any better.

Ever since the revolution of 32, it can be quite simply said that the nation has never truly seen a democracy. The power has quite simply changed hands from one form to another ie.. The Navy, The Police, The Army and now we see it in the hands of businessmen.

Generally though, i have been pleased with how Thailand has changed. The country also attracts a lot more foreigners which a true passionate interest in the country and not just it's sex-industry than it used to.

When i first came here Thailand was famed for one thing and that was its 'bar-girls' now i am delighted to see that the country has become famous for other its 'boxing', 'food', 'culture', 'temples' blah blah.... this is a very positive thing.

Your posting is in my view profoundly muddled.I will respond on only one point.General Prem is an honourable and decent man and I am sure he would be the first to repudiate your claim that the CPT fell at his hands.The CPT fell because the rug was pulled from underneath it by Beijing.For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off this kind of nonsense.

Cassandra,

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. And, IMHO, this has been a high quality thread all around, maybe one of the best on TV, again IMHO. I'd like to keep it this way.

It must be recognized that everyone has their own personal interpretations of events in Thailand in years past. These will always be a mixture of personal experience, personal knowledge, and personal perspective. Whether or not anyone's viewpoint is wholly accurate in terms of historical context is really besides the point. The important thing is that all posters have been sharing their unique and quite fascinating experiences and thoughts on this thread. Allow them that with honor.

If you or others have information that enlightens or even corrects misinterpretations on anyone else's part then be assured that it will be welcomed. Please offer it up. But also, please do it in a manner that befits the quality of this thread and accords respect to all posters. They deserve it as well as you.

I'll put my thoughts on this thread in another way - this thread is not an attempt to prove anything. It's purpose is for pure enjoyment which allows people an opportunity to relate their unique private thoughts, experiences, perspectives, and personal history of Thailand. That sharing, IMHO, is a gift to those such as myself who were not in Thailand at the time as it enriches my own experience of this beautiful country.

To all, please keep it coming.

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your great posts as well.

Thanks,

Tippaporn

Cassandra - argue if you may but the fact is

It was Gen Prem following in the footsteps of MR Kukrit who offered the CPT an amnesty to put down their weapons for the final time. It was Gen Prem who helped save a lot more bloodshed.

It was through his passive non-violent approach towards the CPT that the party so quickly disbanded. If you are muddled, then pls pick up a book on the recent history of Thailand.

Still hopelessly off target I'm afraid.Prem certainly played an important role though you completely misinterpret his position by describing it as passive and non violent.Certainly he offered an amnesty to CPT defectors but those who resisted were bashed very hard and bloodily.But in any case neither he, Kriengsak or any Thai for that matter was the catalyst for the CPT defeat.As Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk point out, "Orphaned by their former international patrons, most CPT armed units emerged from the jungles and surrendered their arms over 1982-3." The Thais under Prem's leadership handled this final phase reasonably well as opposed to the incompetent and violent way they handled the CPT revolt itself itself.I should also say that the dynamics of the dictatorship vs communism relationship was becoming increasingly irrelevant by the 1980's as the economy began its meteoric rise.

Tippaporn,

Point taken but don't fall for the mistake of assuming all contributions are equally valid and worthwhile.They're not.

I think the general amnesty and the split with the Chinese communist party were pretty much equal factors, along with the economy. I was in Thailand at the time all this happened and that's the way it seemed to those of us who were following the story.

Just to get an opinion from someone actually involved, I just rang up a close friend who had fled to the southern jungles and joined the PLAT in 76 and he says he came back because of the amnesty, nothing to do with China. So it may have varied according to the region in Thailand, and of course the individual.

[magobligin]

Working in Indonesia I was able to travel to Thailand quite a lot in the late 70's and there is one visit to Phuket in particular that I fondly remember.

Phuket had two major expat standard hotels, The Pearl in town and the Phuket Island Resort at the seaside. Anyway I digress, I was staying at the Resort with my young family when I met an English gentlemen who was also staying there.

On my enquiry as to his reasons for visiting Phuket he told me he was a representative of KLM and he was carrying out a feasability study to determine whether Phuket could be developed as an international holiday destination. On being asked his findings he looked at me with a wry smile and said " with the existing facilities .. not a chance".

I always will wonder how much longer after he turned in his feasability report this gentlemen's career with KLM lasted.

[johnellisak]

I was fortunate to be stationed in Thailand in the early 70s while I was in the USAF. I spent a year at Utapao, approximately 7 months at Ubon, and a year at Korat. If anyone would like to read about some of my adventures and look at some pictures, you can visit my website. (The link is below) I made a return trip to Thailand in 2000 and again in 2005. I have many pictures posted on my website of the way things were back in the day, and links to many pictures that I took on these two recent trips. If anyone visits my site, please sign my guestbook. There is also a link on how to contact me if you care to.

Website URL: http://cohojohn.tripod.com/thailand/

[Tippaporn]

I was fortunate to be stationed in Thailand in the early 70s while I was in the USAF. I spent a year at Utapao, approximately 7 months at Ubon, and a year at Korat. If anyone would like to read about some of my adventures and look at some pictures, you can visit my website. (The link is below) I made a return trip to Thailand in 2000 and again in 2005. I have many pictures posted on my website of the way things were back in the day, and links to many pictures that I took on these two recent trips. If anyone visits my site, please sign my guestbook. There is also a link on how to contact me if you care to.

Website URL: http://cohojohn.tripod.com/thailand/

Glad to see you took me up on the invite, John. There's some great stories here, with quite a few pics, too. Pop in often as this is the best Thai forum on earth. There are good friends to be made here, too.

to

Edited January 29, 2006 by Tippaporn

[Cassandra]

<snip> there were the odd groups of special forces in the area <snip>

Nignoy, I'd be curious to know what role the special forces were playing in Thailand in the mid-60's. I've tried to get some info on the Internet but came up dry. If you happen to know, that is.

Try finding a copy of Roger Warner's book Back Fire, which focuses on legendary spook Bill Lair who ran a fairly successful resistance movement in Laos until the US generals in Saigon interfered. Lair was a spook who had gone native in that he spoke fluent Thai and had a Thai wife. He was also a close friend of His Majesty. All in all a very interesting book about a not-so-ugly American.

To the best of my knowledge there were never any "VC" units or even Pathet Lao units active in Thailand. There were "Chinese communists" down south and up in the hills in the north. The Thai government once ran a very good anti-communist program, aided by events in the People Republic, to take the steam out of this particular insurgency. Up north the government simply began to take an interest up in the hills where the "commies" were active and made efforts to establish a sense of Thai identity amongst the minority hill people by building roads and schools. (My wife was a pre-school teacher in a minority village in the hills under a program run by the Thai Social Welfare Department, orignially funded by the CIA, and based upon the American Head Start program.) The communists down south were isolated in the deep jungles, neither welcomed by the Thais or the Malays, and eventually handed in their weapons to Thai officials in a public ceremony back in the 1980s. Of course while the government was dealing effectively with the small true communist insurgency, they were at the same time labeling every critic of the government, from Thai labor leaders to conservative monarchists like Sulak Srivaraksa, as communists. The nadir of this madness was the monk Khittbutto declaring that killing a communist was not a sin (mai baap).

That's Kittivutho Bhikku, who said 'Killing communists is like placing fish in a monk's bowl.'

The HQ of the CPT was located in Phitsanulok province and til this day there is still a museum there and remnants of the offices, bunkers etc....

It can be argued that the CPT never really were a threat to the country. Since the fall of the CPT in 1981 at the hands of PM Gen Prem Titsunalonda (who it could be said is Thailand's best ever PM) the stories which have emerged have shown a much tamer side to the CPT than was originally thought.

Quite obviously, most of the CPT members who run off to to the jungles and joined the party after the disillusionment of, firstly Oct 73 and then 1976 - did so because there was no other political alternative.

As has been mentioned, this period of Thai history saw a witch-hunt similar to that of MacCarthy's. The student activists of the era therefore, who after being brandished Communists - just became that exact thing. A lot of these CPT leaders who include Ajarn Thirayuth of Thammasart University a (harsh critic of Thaksin's) are, til this day respected teachers/politicians etc... They too, argue this 'tamer' side to the CPT.

During the MacCarthy style Witch Hunt even one of Thailand's most respected monks The Late Venerable Buddhadasa Bhikku of 'Wat Suan Mokkhe' did not escape the threat of imprisonment for his teachings.

I was first back in Thailand way back in 91 and not before long i was one of those Farang running away from the turmoil on Ratchadamnoern and Black May.

Politically, Thailand hasn't really gotten any better.

Ever since the revolution of 32, it can be quite simply said that the nation has never truly seen a democracy. The power has quite simply changed hands from one form to another ie.. The Navy, The Police, The Army and now we see it in the hands of businessmen.

Generally though, i have been pleased with how Thailand has changed. The country also attracts a lot more foreigners which a true passionate interest in the country and not just it's sex-industry than it used to.

When i first came here Thailand was famed for one thing and that was its 'bar-girls' now i am delighted to see that the country has become famous for other its 'boxing', 'food', 'culture', 'temples' blah blah.... this is a very positive thing.

Your posting is in my view profoundly muddled.I will respond on only one point.General Prem is an honourable and decent man and I am sure he would be the first to repudiate your claim that the CPT fell at his hands.The CPT fell because the rug was pulled from underneath it by Beijing.For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off this kind of nonsense.

Cassandra,

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. And, IMHO, this has been a high quality thread all around, maybe one of the best on TV, again IMHO. I'd like to keep it this way.

It must be recognized that everyone has their own personal interpretations of events in Thailand in years past. These will always be a mixture of personal experience, personal knowledge, and personal perspective. Whether or not anyone's viewpoint is wholly accurate in terms of historical context is really besides the point. The important thing is that all posters have been sharing their unique and quite fascinating experiences and thoughts on this thread. Allow them that with honor.

If you or others have information that enlightens or even corrects misinterpretations on anyone else's part then be assured that it will be welcomed. Please offer it up. But also, please do it in a manner that befits the quality of this thread and accords respect to all posters. They deserve it as well as you.

I'll put my thoughts on this thread in another way - this thread is not an attempt to prove anything. It's purpose is for pure enjoyment which allows people an opportunity to relate their unique private thoughts, experiences, perspectives, and personal history of Thailand. That sharing, IMHO, is a gift to those such as myself who were not in Thailand at the time as it enriches my own experience of this beautiful country.

To all, please keep it coming.

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your great posts as well.

Thanks,

Tippaporn

Cassandra - argue if you may but the fact is

It was Gen Prem following in the footsteps of MR Kukrit who offered the CPT an amnesty to put down their weapons for the final time. It was Gen Prem who helped save a lot more bloodshed.

It was through his passive non-violent approach towards the CPT that the party so quickly disbanded. If you are muddled, then pls pick up a book on the recent history of Thailand.

Still hopelessly off target I'm afraid.Prem certainly played an important role though you completely misinterpret his position by describing it as passive and non violent.Certainly he offered an amnesty to CPT defectors but those who resisted were bashed very hard and bloodily.But in any case neither he, Kriengsak or any Thai for that matter was the catalyst for the CPT defeat.As Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk point out, "Orphaned by their former international patrons, most CPT armed units emerged from the jungles and surrendered their arms over 1982-3." The Thais under Prem's leadership handled this final phase reasonably well as opposed to the incompetent and violent way they handled the CPT revolt itself itself.I should also say that the dynamics of the dictatorship vs communism relationship was becoming increasingly irrelevant by the 1980's as the economy began its meteoric rise.

Tippaporn,

Point taken but don't fall for the mistake of assuming all contributions are equally valid and worthwhile.They're not.

I think the general amnesty and the split with the Chinese communist party were pretty much equal factors, along with the economy. I was in Thailand at the time all this happened and that's the way it seemed to those of us who were following the story.

Just to get an opinion from someone actually involved, I just rang up a close friend who had fled to the southern jungles and joined the PLAT in 76 and he says he came back because of the amnesty, nothing to do with China. So it may have varied according to the region in Thailand, and of course the individual.

No wrong again.It was the abandoning of the CPT by the Chinese that made the amnesty a politically feasible initiative.They were not "pretty much equal factors".One(Chinese withdrawal of support) led to the other (Thais offering amnesty).Without the Chinese action there would have been no amnesty.

[sabaijai]

<snip> there were the odd groups of special forces in the area <snip>

Nignoy, I'd be curious to know what role the special forces were playing in Thailand in the mid-60's. I've tried to get some info on the Internet but came up dry. If you happen to know, that is.

Try finding a copy of Roger Warner's book Back Fire, which focuses on legendary spook Bill Lair who ran a fairly successful resistance movement in Laos until the US generals in Saigon interfered. Lair was a spook who had gone native in that he spoke fluent Thai and had a Thai wife. He was also a close friend of His Majesty. All in all a very interesting book about a not-so-ugly American.

To the best of my knowledge there were never any "VC" units or even Pathet Lao units active in Thailand. There were "Chinese communists" down south and up in the hills in the north. The Thai government once ran a very good anti-communist program, aided by events in the People Republic, to take the steam out of this particular insurgency. Up north the government simply began to take an interest up in the hills where the "commies" were active and made efforts to establish a sense of Thai identity amongst the minority hill people by building roads and schools. (My wife was a pre-school teacher in a minority village in the hills under a program run by the Thai Social Welfare Department, orignially funded by the CIA, and based upon the American Head Start program.) The communists down south were isolated in the deep jungles, neither welcomed by the Thais or the Malays, and eventually handed in their weapons to Thai officials in a public ceremony back in the 1980s. Of course while the government was dealing effectively with the small true communist insurgency, they were at the same time labeling every critic of the government, from Thai labor leaders to conservative monarchists like Sulak Srivaraksa, as communists. The nadir of this madness was the monk Khittbutto declaring that killing a communist was not a sin (mai baap).

That's Kittivutho Bhikku, who said 'Killing communists is like placing fish in a monk's bowl.'

The HQ of the CPT was located in Phitsanulok province and til this day there is still a museum there and remnants of the offices, bunkers etc....

It can be argued that the CPT never really were a threat to the country. Since the fall of the CPT in 1981 at the hands of PM Gen Prem Titsunalonda (who it could be said is Thailand's best ever PM) the stories which have emerged have shown a much tamer side to the CPT than was originally thought.

Quite obviously, most of the CPT members who run off to to the jungles and joined the party after the disillusionment of, firstly Oct 73 and then 1976 - did so because there was no other political alternative.

As has been mentioned, this period of Thai history saw a witch-hunt similar to that of MacCarthy's. The student activists of the era therefore, who after being brandished Communists - just became that exact thing. A lot of these CPT leaders who include Ajarn Thirayuth of Thammasart University a (harsh critic of Thaksin's) are, til this day respected teachers/politicians etc... They too, argue this 'tamer' side to the CPT.

During the MacCarthy style Witch Hunt even one of Thailand's most respected monks The Late Venerable Buddhadasa Bhikku of 'Wat Suan Mokkhe' did not escape the threat of imprisonment for his teachings.

I was first back in Thailand way back in 91 and not before long i was one of those Farang running away from the turmoil on Ratchadamnoern and Black May.

Politically, Thailand hasn't really gotten any better.

Ever since the revolution of 32, it can be quite simply said that the nation has never truly seen a democracy. The power has quite simply changed hands from one form to another ie.. The Navy, The Police, The Army and now we see it in the hands of businessmen.

Generally though, i have been pleased with how Thailand has changed. The country also attracts a lot more foreigners which a true passionate interest in the country and not just it's sex-industry than it used to.

When i first came here Thailand was famed for one thing and that was its 'bar-girls' now i am delighted to see that the country has become famous for other its 'boxing', 'food', 'culture', 'temples' blah blah.... this is a very positive thing.

Your posting is in my view profoundly muddled.I will respond on only one point.General Prem is an honourable and decent man and I am sure he would be the first to repudiate your claim that the CPT fell at his hands.The CPT fell because the rug was pulled from underneath it by Beijing.For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off this kind of nonsense.

Cassandra,

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. And, IMHO, this has been a high quality thread all around, maybe one of the best on TV, again IMHO. I'd like to keep it this way.

It must be recognized that everyone has their own personal interpretations of events in Thailand in years past. These will always be a mixture of personal experience, personal knowledge, and personal perspective. Whether or not anyone's viewpoint is wholly accurate in terms of historical context is really besides the point. The important thing is that all posters have been sharing their unique and quite fascinating experiences and thoughts on this thread. Allow them that with honor.

If you or others have information that enlightens or even corrects misinterpretations on anyone else's part then be assured that it will be welcomed. Please offer it up. But also, please do it in a manner that befits the quality of this thread and accords respect to all posters. They deserve it as well as you.

I'll put my thoughts on this thread in another way - this thread is not an attempt to prove anything. It's purpose is for pure enjoyment which allows people an opportunity to relate their unique private thoughts, experiences, perspectives, and personal history of Thailand. That sharing, IMHO, is a gift to those such as myself who were not in Thailand at the time as it enriches my own experience of this beautiful country.

To all, please keep it coming.

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your great posts as well.

Thanks,

Tippaporn

Cassandra - argue if you may but the fact is

It was Gen Prem following in the footsteps of MR Kukrit who offered the CPT an amnesty to put down their weapons for the final time. It was Gen Prem who helped save a lot more bloodshed.

It was through his passive non-violent approach towards the CPT that the party so quickly disbanded. If you are muddled, then pls pick up a book on the recent history of Thailand.

Still hopelessly off target I'm afraid.Prem certainly played an important role though you completely misinterpret his position by describing it as passive and non violent.Certainly he offered an amnesty to CPT defectors but those who resisted were bashed very hard and bloodily.But in any case neither he, Kriengsak or any Thai for that matter was the catalyst for the CPT defeat.As Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk point out, "Orphaned by their former international patrons, most CPT armed units emerged from the jungles and surrendered their arms over 1982-3." The Thais under Prem's leadership handled this final phase reasonably well as opposed to the incompetent and violent way they handled the CPT revolt itself itself.I should also say that the dynamics of the dictatorship vs communism relationship was becoming increasingly irrelevant by the 1980's as the economy began its meteoric rise.

Tippaporn,

Point taken but don't fall for the mistake of assuming all contributions are equally valid and worthwhile.They're not.

I think the general amnesty and the split with the Chinese communist party were pretty much equal factors, along with the economy. I was in Thailand at the time all this happened and that's the way it seemed to those of us who were following the story.

Just to get an opinion from someone actually involved, I just rang up a close friend who had fled to the southern jungles and joined the PLAT in 76 and he says he came back because of the amnesty, nothing to do with China. So it may have varied according to the region in Thailand, and of course the individual.

No wrong again.It was the abandoning of the CPT by the Chinese that made the amnesty a politically feasible initiative.They were not "pretty much equal factors".One(Chinese withdrawal of support) led to the other (Thais offering amnesty).Without the Chinese action there would have been no amnesty.

This is a no-win argument, it's like saying Nelson Mandela would never have been freed if there hadn't been a boycott of South Africa. Just because two events occur one after another doesn't mean there is a cause-and-effect relationship. Now if you have actual proof that there was, let's have it. Otherwise

[khunlungphudhu]

, as for the reasons we were there, to introduce the british army to the joys of Sanook, Som Tam and Lao Khao not forgetting of course bringing the Chips and Mushy Peas experience to Isaan nignoy

At last! The vey reason for my being there!

Have been wondering all these years.

[Cassandra]

<snip> there were the odd groups of special forces in the area <snip>

Nignoy, I'd be curious to know what role the special forces were playing in Thailand in the mid-60's. I've tried to get some info on the Internet but came up dry. If you happen to know, that is.

Try finding a copy of Roger Warner's book Back Fire, which focuses on legendary spook Bill Lair who ran a fairly successful resistance movement in Laos until the US generals in Saigon interfered. Lair was a spook who had gone native in that he spoke fluent Thai and had a Thai wife. He was also a close friend of His Majesty. All in all a very interesting book about a not-so-ugly American.

To the best of my knowledge there were never any "VC" units or even Pathet Lao units active in Thailand. There were "Chinese communists" down south and up in the hills in the north. The Thai government once ran a very good anti-communist program, aided by events in the People Republic, to take the steam out of this particular insurgency. Up north the government simply began to take an interest up in the hills where the "commies" were active and made efforts to establish a sense of Thai identity amongst the minority hill people by building roads and schools. (My wife was a pre-school teacher in a minority village in the hills under a program run by the Thai Social Welfare Department, orignially funded by the CIA, and based upon the American Head Start program.) The communists down south were isolated in the deep jungles, neither welcomed by the Thais or the Malays, and eventually handed in their weapons to Thai officials in a public ceremony back in the 1980s. Of course while the government was dealing effectively with the small true communist insurgency, they were at the same time labeling every critic of the government, from Thai labor leaders to conservative monarchists like Sulak Srivaraksa, as communists. The nadir of this madness was the monk Khittbutto declaring that killing a communist was not a sin (mai baap).

That's Kittivutho Bhikku, who said 'Killing communists is like placing fish in a monk's bowl.'

The HQ of the CPT was located in Phitsanulok province and til this day there is still a museum there and remnants of the offices, bunkers etc....

It can be argued that the CPT never really were a threat to the country. Since the fall of the CPT in 1981 at the hands of PM Gen Prem Titsunalonda (who it could be said is Thailand's best ever PM) the stories which have emerged have shown a much tamer side to the CPT than was originally thought.

Quite obviously, most of the CPT members who run off to to the jungles and joined the party after the disillusionment of, firstly Oct 73 and then 1976 - did so because there was no other political alternative.

As has been mentioned, this period of Thai history saw a witch-hunt similar to that of MacCarthy's. The student activists of the era therefore, who after being brandished Communists - just became that exact thing. A lot of these CPT leaders who include Ajarn Thirayuth of Thammasart University a (harsh critic of Thaksin's) are, til this day respected teachers/politicians etc... They too, argue this 'tamer' side to the CPT.

During the MacCarthy style Witch Hunt even one of Thailand's most respected monks The Late Venerable Buddhadasa Bhikku of 'Wat Suan Mokkhe' did not escape the threat of imprisonment for his teachings.

I was first back in Thailand way back in 91 and not before long i was one of those Farang running away from the turmoil on Ratchadamnoern and Black May.

Politically, Thailand hasn't really gotten any better.

Ever since the revolution of 32, it can be quite simply said that the nation has never truly seen a democracy. The power has quite simply changed hands from one form to another ie.. The Navy, The Police, The Army and now we see it in the hands of businessmen.

Generally though, i have been pleased with how Thailand has changed. The country also attracts a lot more foreigners which a true passionate interest in the country and not just it's sex-industry than it used to.

When i first came here Thailand was famed for one thing and that was its 'bar-girls' now i am delighted to see that the country has become famous for other its 'boxing', 'food', 'culture', 'temples' blah blah.... this is a very positive thing.

Your posting is in my view profoundly muddled.I will respond on only one point.General Prem is an honourable and decent man and I am sure he would be the first to repudiate your claim that the CPT fell at his hands.The CPT fell because the rug was pulled from underneath it by Beijing.For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off this kind of nonsense.

Cassandra,

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest. And, IMHO, this has been a high quality thread all around, maybe one of the best on TV, again IMHO. I'd like to keep it this way.

It must be recognized that everyone has their own personal interpretations of events in Thailand in years past. These will always be a mixture of personal experience, personal knowledge, and personal perspective. Whether or not anyone's viewpoint is wholly accurate in terms of historical context is really besides the point. The important thing is that all posters have been sharing their unique and quite fascinating experiences and thoughts on this thread. Allow them that with honor.

If you or others have information that enlightens or even corrects misinterpretations on anyone else's part then be assured that it will be welcomed. Please offer it up. But also, please do it in a manner that befits the quality of this thread and accords respect to all posters. They deserve it as well as you.

I'll put my thoughts on this thread in another way - this thread is not an attempt to prove anything. It's purpose is for pure enjoyment which allows people an opportunity to relate their unique private thoughts, experiences, perspectives, and personal history of Thailand. That sharing, IMHO, is a gift to those such as myself who were not in Thailand at the time as it enriches my own experience of this beautiful country.

To all, please keep it coming.

BTW, I've enjoyed reading your great posts as well.

Thanks,

Tippaporn

Cassandra - argue if you may but the fact is

It was Gen Prem following in the footsteps of MR Kukrit who offered the CPT an amnesty to put down their weapons for the final time. It was Gen Prem who helped save a lot more bloodshed.

It was through his passive non-violent approach towards the CPT that the party so quickly disbanded. If you are muddled, then pls pick up a book on the recent history of Thailand.

Still hopelessly off target I'm afraid.Prem certainly played an important role though you completely misinterpret his position by describing it as passive and non violent.Certainly he offered an amnesty to CPT defectors but those who resisted were bashed very hard and bloodily.But in any case neither he, Kriengsak or any Thai for that matter was the catalyst for the CPT defeat.As Chris Baker and Khun Pasuk point out, "Orphaned by their former international patrons, most CPT armed units emerged from the jungles and surrendered their arms over 1982-3." The Thais under Prem's leadership handled this final phase reasonably well as opposed to the incompetent and violent way they handled the CPT revolt itself itself.I should also say that the dynamics of the dictatorship vs communism relationship was becoming increasingly irrelevant by the 1980's as the economy began its meteoric rise.

Tippaporn,

Point taken but don't fall for the mistake of assuming all contributions are equally valid and worthwhile.They're not.

I think the general amnesty and the split with the Chinese communist party were pretty much equal factors, along with the economy. I was in Thailand at the time all this happened and that's the way it seemed to those of us who were following the story.

Just to get an opinion from someone actually involved, I just rang up a close friend who had fled to the southern jungles and joined the PLAT in 76 and he says he came back because of the amnesty, nothing to do with China. So it may have varied according to the region in Thailand, and of course the individual.

No wrong again.It was the abandoning of the CPT by the Chinese that made the amnesty a politically feasible initiative.They were not "pretty much equal factors".One(Chinese withdrawal of support) led to the other (Thais offering amnesty).Without the Chinese action there would have been no amnesty.

This is a no-win argument, it's like saying Nelson Mandela would never have been freed if there hadn't been a boycott of South Africa. Just because two events occur one after another doesn't mean there is a cause-and-effect relationship. Now if you have actual proof that there was, let's have it. Otherwise

You don't seem to have the intellectual equipment (I'm not being rude:it's simply a question of training in historical analysis, no reflection on your intelligence) to make your point very well.Let me try and explain.The fact that one event takes place after another could (post hoc ergo propter hoc etc) or could not be the result of cause and effect.Thus I (a) get up in the morning and ( make a phonecall to my girlfriend.The two events (a) and ( are not connected except in the most tenuous sense.In contrast (a) the Americans in 1945 dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and ( the Japanese surrendered very shortly afterwards.The two events are directly connected.Geddit?

As far as the defeat of the CPT is concerned there's actually not much controversy on the background whether on the part of Thai or foreign historians of the period.My polite recommendation is to start reading.If you want a schoolyard argument by all means continue this thread on Thai Visa, but not with me.

[sabaijai]

You don't seem to have the intellectual equipment (I'm not being rude:it's simply a question of training in historical analysis, no reflection on your intelligence) to make your point very well.Let me try and explain.The fact that one event takes place after another could (post hoc ergo propter hoc etc) or could not be the result of cause and effect.Thus I (a) get up in the morning and ( make a phonecall to my girlfriend.The two events (a) and ( are not connected except in the most tenuous sense.In contrast (a) the Americans in 1945 dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and ( the Japanese surrendered very shortly afterwards.The two events are directly connected.Geddit?

As far as the defeat of the CPT is concerned there's actually not much controversy on the background whether on the part of Thai or foreign historians of the period.My polite recommendation is to start reading.If you want a schoolyard argument by all means continue this thread on Thai Visa, but not with me.

So with nothing to back your claim, ad hominem is all you have?

[Stephen Cleary]

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA)You don't seem to have the intellectual equipment (I'm not being rude:it's simply a question of training in historical analysis, no reflection on your intelligence) to make your point very well.Let me try and explain.The fact that one event takes place after another could (post hoc ergo propter hoc etc) or could not be the result of cause and effect.Thus I (a) get up in the morning and ( make a phonecall to my girlfriend.The two events (a) and ( are not connected except in the most tenuous sense.In contrast (a) the Americans in 1945 dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and ( the Japanese surrendered very shortly afterwards.The two events are directly connected.Geddit?

As far as the defeat of the CPT is concerned there's actually not much controversy on the background whether on the part of Thai or foreign historians of the period.My polite recommendation is to start reading.If you want a schoolyard argument by all means continue this thread on Thai Visa, but not with me.

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA) "For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off any nonsense" and "Schoolyard argument" etc..... blah blah blah and now Cassandra tells others "Im not being rude, its simply a question of training in historical analysis"

I dont know what kind of selective reading this guy has been doing but putting forward an argument with his 'Thai and Foreign Historians of the period' is just ......completely - making things up.

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA) "My polite recommendation is to start reading" Well, quite honestly i could turn around and say the same thing to him.

Cassandra it seems, has purchased a couple of books from the shelves of DK Books and now feels himself a true honored historian of modern Thai studies, where the views of others are completely frivolous. Should he wish to carry on with a pointless intimidating argument with other postees i recommend he do first; a few years of worthy study.

Less derogratory remarks, from now on, concerning the intelligence of TV members who you know the slightest about, would also be most welcome.

Edited January 30, 2006 by stevesuphan

[Cassandra]

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA)You don't seem to have the intellectual equipment (I'm not being rude:it's simply a question of training in historical analysis, no reflection on your intelligence) to make your point very well.Let me try and explain.The fact that one event takes place after another could (post hoc ergo propter hoc etc) or could not be the result of cause and effect.Thus I (a) get up in the morning and ( make a phonecall to my girlfriend.The two events (a) and ( are not connected except in the most tenuous sense.In contrast (a) the Americans in 1945 dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and ( the Japanese surrendered very shortly afterwards.The two events are directly connected.Geddit?

As far as the defeat of the CPT is concerned there's actually not much controversy on the background whether on the part of Thai or foreign historians of the period.My polite recommendation is to start reading.If you want a schoolyard argument by all means continue this thread on Thai Visa, but not with me.

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA) "For heavens sake do some reading before spouting off any nonsense" and "Schoolyard argument" etc..... blah blah blah and now Cassandra tells others "Im not being rude, its simply a question of training in historical analysis"

I dont know what kind of selective reading this guy has been doing but putting forward an argument with his 'Thai and Foreign Historians of the period' is just ......completely - making things up.

(QUOTE: CASSANDRA) "My polite recommendation is to start reading" Well, quite honestly i could turn around and say the same thing to him.

Cassandra it seems, has purchased a couple of books from the shelves of DK Books and now feels himself a true honored historian of modern Thai studies, where the views of others are completely frivolous. Should he wish to carry on with a pointless intimidating argument with other postees i recommend he do first; a few years of worthy study.

Less derogratory remarks, from now on, concerning the intelligence of TV members who you know the slightest about, would also be most welcome.

Actually I do have a degree in history though not in Thai studies.I went out of my way to make the point that my criticisms made no inference on the poster's intelligence but there was a problem with analysis techniques.If my comment was unduly ad hominem I apologise.There's a place for personal invective in historical discussion (cognoscenti will recall Trevor-Roper, Tawney, AJP Taylor etc) but there has to be some point at issue.I don't claim any first hand knowlege of The CPT demise but I have read a fair amount of the relevant literature.What I wrote on the Chinese withdrawal of support as the critical factor is accepted by the vast majority of historians, although it is true some would give prominent emphasis to the economic transformation that was becoming apparent at the time.What clearly was not the proximate cause was the amnesty or Prem's conciliatory policy though, as I previously noted, the Thais handled the wind down of the CPT quite well.If you have any serious comments let's hear them or would you prefer to keep it at the level I am "making things up".

[sabaijai]

What I wrote on the Chinese withdrawal of support as the critical factor is accepted by the vast majority of historians.

That's not true. But just so you know my reading hasn't been selective, I've read every history of Thailand written in the English language (and a few in Thai). That is not the 'majority' opinion.

As far as intellectual equipment goes, I have a BA in political science with a focus on SE Asian political systems, and an MA in Thai studies with emphases on Thai history and language. During my training I wrote practically all of my scholarly papers on the communist movement in SE Asia, and my final MA thesis was on the use of Buddhism as a propaganda instrument by right-wing and left-wing camps in Thailand in the 1970s. Parts of my research were based on my own translations of radio broadcasts from the Voice of the People of Thailand.

Regardless of what historians may or may not have written, though, I was living in Thailand from 77 to 82 when all of these events transpired and was following developments closely. I also knew a few Thai students who fled the cities to join the PLAT during that period. IMO the economy, the amnesty and the split with the Chinese communists were all interdependent factors, but the amnesty was the most proximate cause of the CPT's demise. CPT leadership was affected by the Chinese split, but it wasn't the CPT leaders who left the movement at first, it was the rank and file. If you ask the average ex-CPT member why he left the fold, the most likely response will relate to the amnesty.

One other factor you've left out was the 1978 Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia, which cost the PLAT another ally but more importantly caused general Thai public sentiment to drift further away from the CPT and from anti-military dissidents in general. Even though the VN invasion was aimed at defeating the Khmer Rouge, many Thais feared they were seeing the 'domino effect' in action. (Yes I know the VN invasion of Cambodia was related to VN's own split with China, but it didn't lead to the demise of the VN communists did it?)

You can argue that the Chinese split may have prompted the offer of amnesty to the PLAT, but that makes the split a remote, rather than a proximate, cause as long as it can be demonstrated that most PLAT troops gave up arms due to the amnesty.

The same analysis applies to those in the Thai government who conceived of and implemented the amnesty. They would have been influenced by several factors, of which the Chinese issue was one. Only Gen Prem and his advisors would be able to tell you if one factor was given more weight, and I don't believe he has gone on record addressing that question. As I recall, Kukrit Pramoj's 1970s columns in Siam Rath newspaper advocated amnesty as a way of dissolving the CPT's post-1976 support among students, workers and farmers.

Another obvious counter-argument: The time lag between the PRC's rapprochement with the Thai gov't and the general amnesty doesn't fit the Hiroshima analogy very well.

[Tippaporn]

Impressive background info, sabaijai. Interesting to know that about you.

While I don't have a formal education on history it was on my mind throughout this dialogue that the demise of the CPT was influenced by a number of events. Complex events, I believe, are not so simple where the event can be soley attributable to a single cause. The end result is due to a myriad of events, all interacting and contributing. Not so easy to determine proximate causes with definitiveness, especially considering that there may have existed influences not perceived or given any weight at all.

As you mentioned sabaijai, the individual reasons for falling out of the CPT among the membership must have been varied. It would certainly make sense that the main reasons for rank and file would have been different than those of the leadership.

Great discussion, but again I would advise Cassandra to refrain from making it personal in any way. That can only serve to detract from the topic.

[Prakanong2005]

Absolutely brilliant thread - thanks to all the contributors and the OP for suggesting it.

To the poster who mentioned a blog i think that would be an enxcellent idea - and others should too.

This type of history is very interesting and by its very nature often dissapears - it would be really good to document it as you remember it for posterity.

[Neeranam]

Recently, while in Bangkok, I went to the Thermae Bar, for old times sake. I used to drink there a lot 11 years ago(but it was in a different location).

I was amazed - the same woman was working there as years before and guess what she remembered me clearly. The atmosphere in the bar was not nearly as good as it used to be, when we stayed in the bar until daylight.

Is it me that has changed or did it used to be better. The girls were not nearly as 'friendly', and there weren't any fights. Bangkok is getting boring, or maybe I am.

[Cassandra]

Impressive background info, sabaijai. Interesting to know that about you.

While I don't have a formal education on history it was on my mind throughout this dialogue that the demise of the CPT was influenced by a number of events. Complex events, I believe, are not so simple where the event can be soley attributable to a single cause. The end result is due to a myriad of events, all interacting and contributing. Not so easy to determine proximate causes with definitiveness, especially considering that there may have existed influences not perceived or given any weight at all.

As you mentioned sabaijai, the individual reasons for falling out of the CPT among the membership must have been varied. It would certainly make sense that the main reasons for rank and file would have been different than those of the leadership.

Great discussion, but again I would advise Cassandra to refrain from making it personal in any way. That can only serve to detract from the topic.

I thought we had all got over the ad hominem phase, and I had apologised.But no doubt useful to be reminded although I was not the one accusing anyone of "making things up".

It is an interesting subject for speculation generally what are the contributory factors to historical events.Quite surprisingly, mainly due to Sabaijai's contributions (although by no means free of errors), this thread suddenly took on an enhanced quality in contrast with the cartoonish way these issues are normally dealt with on this forum.My original purpose -admittedly not in a very scholarly way- was mainly to refute the myth that somehow the Thai authorities were responsible through a generous spirited and farsighted policy for defusing the CPT challenge, and to point out the critical importance of Beijing's withdrawal of support.But of course there were other factors involved and I specifically identified the extraordinary transformation of the Thai economy.Looking at the details of course the motivation of CPT members was not identical.After all we are talking about a wide range including peasants,hardcore Marxists,Thammasat yuppies, intellectuals and non-ideological types driven to action by the intolerant authoritarianism of the times.But without the policy switch in China which had nothing to do with events in Thailand,the demise of the CPT would have been a more drawn out affair.

[Tippaporn]

It's been a pleasure for me, Cassandra. I appreciate greatly the contributions of both you and Sabaijai. And I absolutely agree that the spirit of the debate is qualitative.

For myself, I'd be much interested in reading some literature on the topic. Anything that either you or Sabaijai could recommend? Nothing in Thai, I'm afraid, SJ.

Recently, while in Bangkok, I went to the Thermae Bar, for old times sake. I used to drink there a lot 11 years ago(but it was in a different location).

I was amazed - the same woman was working there as years before and guess what she remembered me clearly. The atmosphere in the bar was not nearly as good as it used to be, when we stayed in the bar until daylight.

Is it me that has changed or did it used to be better. The girls were not nearly as 'friendly', and there weren't any fights. Bangkok is getting boring, or maybe I am.

Times changes the world and us, Neeranam. Stepping back into the past is rarely as good as it was when those times were in the present, IMHO. Today is just as good, no better and no worse, but in different ways.

[camerata]

Recently, while in Bangkok, I went to the Thermae Bar, for old times sake. I used to drink there a lot 11 years ago(but it was in a different location).

I was amazed - the same woman was working there as years before and guess what she remembered me clearly. The atmosphere in the bar was not nearly as good as it used to be, when we stayed in the bar until daylight.

Is it me that has changed or did it used to be better. The girls were not nearly as 'friendly', and there weren't any fights. Bangkok is getting boring, or maybe I am.

One thing that didn't change with the new Thermae was the amount of smoke in the place. A couple of hours in that air would knock a couple of years off your life.

[camerata]

One other factor you've left out was the 1978 Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia, which cost the PLAT another ally but more importantly caused general Thai public sentiment to drift further away from the CPT and from anti-military dissidents in general. Even though the VN invasion was aimed at defeating the Khmer Rouge, many Thais feared they were seeing the 'domino effect' in action.

One thing I remember during the several years following 1978 was the convoys of 10-wheel trucks carrying Red Cross supplies that rumbled out along Sukhumvit Road every day heading for Aranyaprathet. And by the mid-80s every man and his dog was heading for "Aranya" to pick up jobs teaching English or working with the UN and other agencies. "Refugee tourists," some people called them.

I recall an article in the Bangkok Post in which a female Thai graduate was complaining that while she taught English to refugees, a locally hired farang "supervisor" who didn't even speak Thai would pace up and down in her classroom "inspecting" her and the other Thais' work. However, I knew guys who taught English in Aranya for fairly low pay and did a good job.

[Uma~~]

This is a great topic but there's simply too many pages to read. I love seeing historical then and now photos. Does anybody have any of Sukhumvit road?

I'd even be interested to just see what it looked like before the skytrain.

[camerata]

This is a great topic but there's simply too many pages to read. I love seeing historical then and now photos. Does anybody have any of Sukhumvit road?

I'd even be interested to just see what it looked like before the skytrain.

On Page 7 of this topic:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...pic=56390&st=90

[johnellisak]

I was fortunate to be stationed in Thailand in the early 70s while I was in the USAF. I spent a year at Utapao, approximately 7 months at Ubon, and a year at Korat. If anyone would like to read about some of my adventures and look at some pictures, you can visit my website. (The link is below) I made a return trip to Thailand in 2000 and again in 2005. I have many pictures posted on my website of the way things were back in the day, and links to many pictures that I took on these two recent trips. If anyone visits my site, please sign my guestbook. There is also a link on how to contact me if you care to.

Website URL: http://cohojohn.tripod.com/thailand/

Glad to see you took me up on the invite, John. There's some great stories here, with quite a few pics, too. Pop in often as this is the best Thai forum on earth. There are good friends to be made here, too.

to

I guess I'm old school, because this forum doesn't seem to be very user friendly. Have you ever checked out any of the Yahoo Egroups? They're alot easier to navigate through the posts. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm just not used to this type forum.

John

[sabaijai]

I was fortunate to be stationed in Thailand in the early 70s while I was in the USAF. I spent a year at Utapao, approximately 7 months at Ubon, and a year at Korat. If anyone would like to read about some of my adventures and look at some pictures, you can visit my website. (The link is below) I made a return trip to Thailand in 2000 and again in 2005. I have many pictures posted on my website of the way things were back in the day, and links to many pictures that I took on these two recent trips. If anyone visits my site, please sign my guestbook. There is also a link on how to contact me if you care to.

Website URL: http://cohojohn.tripod.com/thailand/

Glad to see you took me up on the invite, John. There's some great stories here, with quite a few pics, too. Pop in often as this is the best Thai forum on earth. There are good friends to be made here, too.

to

I guess I'm old school, because this forum doesn't seem to be very user friendly. Have you ever checked out any of the Yahoo Egroups? They're alot easier to navigate through the posts. Just my opinion. Perhaps I'm just not used to this type forum.

John

I'm on a few Yahoo egroups too, and overall I find the format here to be much easier and quicker to navigate than the Yahoo format, once you're used to it.

[Tippaporn]

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

[Stephen Cleary]

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

Hi Tippaporn:

From the top of my head 'Democracy, Shaken and Stirred' by Win Lyovarin (Translated to Eng)

This book was winner of the SEA Write Award 1997 and Thai National Book Award 1995.

The book, like i personally mentioned before argues that 'Thailand has never known a true democracy'

The book also delves into a couple of so-called taboo issues of modern Thai history but due to legal reasons touches on them very 'implyingly'

What is very interesting is that he argues that The Oct 1973 incident was 'a political farce' and the riots and killings were orchestrated by politicians. His arguement is a good one too.

He also writes a lot about the CPT and their activities. Then he goes into Gen Prem and 1980, the end of the CPT etc.....Unfortunately for Cassandra though, he too fails to mention one word about The Chinese being involved in their demise. This is contrary to what Cassandra 'completely made up' with his 'most historians say........'

Type the name into a google search to read a review or two. Happy reading!

Steve

[bannork]

Sabaijai, any idea as to why the roundabout near Hualampong railway station is named 'The July 22 Roundabout'? What happened on that particular day one July 22?

Congratulations, by the way, on showing true Thai restraint when goaded needlessly by a recent supercilious post.

[Cassandra]

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

Hi Tippaporn:

From the top of my head 'Democracy, Shaken and Stirred' by Win Lyovarin (Translated to Eng)

This book was winner of the SEA Write Award 1997 and Thai National Book Award 1995.

The book, like i personally mentioned before argues that 'Thailand has never known a true democracy'

The book also delves into a couple of so-called taboo issues of modern Thai history but due to legal reasons touches on them very 'implyingly'

What is very interesting is that he argues that The Oct 1973 incident was 'a political farce' and the riots and killings were orchestrated by politicians. His arguement is a good one too.

He also writes a lot about the CPT and their activities. Then he goes into Gen Prem and 1980, the end of the CPT etc.....Unfortunately for Cassandra though, he too fails to mention one word about The Chinese being involved in their demise. This is contrary to what Cassandra 'completely made up' with his 'most historians say........'

Type the name into a google search to read a review or two. Happy reading!

Steve

Oh dear I had previously taken you seriously as your previous post was generally plausible but it seems my original scepticism was spot on.For the uninitiated,Win Lyovarin is melodramatic novelist not a historian, and not a particularly good one at that..I had to restrain a snigger at your reference to his winning the Thai National Book Award.(The Booker Prize it ain't).More comical still is your reference to his insight that the 1973 riots were orchestrated by politicians.How original!!! I do however agree he is worth reading but for sociological reasons rather than anything else.

Not sure why you are so concerned to downplay the Chinese realpolitik which cut the ground from underneath the CPT.Chris Baker for example would make the point even stronger than I have.Maybe you should tell him and other historians they are making things up.Or maybe you can just ring up one of your (imaginary?) ex-jungle/CPT friends for a supportive story if they can spare the time from share trading.

[meom]

... to refute the myth that somehow the Thai authorities were responsible through a generous spirited and farsighted policy for defusing the CPT challenge, and to point out the critical importance of Beijing's withdrawal of support.

What was the reason for China's withdrawal of support?

Did it have to do with economic liberalization within China or were their other factors such as for example the CIA no longer backing the ex KMT in Burma along China's border?

[Tippaporn]

Ahem . . . any recommendations yet on reading material?

Sabaijai and Cassandra, I would still be interested in your recommendations. Steve, thank you for yours.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Tippaporn

[the gent]

The Revolutionary King by William(?) Stephenson is an interesting read. It provides some interesting insights but may be difficult to buy in Thailand.

The Chinese withdrawal of support, such as it was, owed more to the quid pro quo advanced by the american/western axis in favour of the Khmer Rouge who enjoyed Peking's backing at the time. Perhaps the biggest stain on real politik's machinations in modern times. Nixon kissing chinese ass ably supported by the miserable europeans consigned perhaps a million more Cambodians to the charnel house all because uncle sam got his ass kicked by the VC.

Shitty world but 'twas ever thus.