My Hard Drives Sound Like Somebody Threw Sand In Them

[meadish_sweetball]

Just bought a new computer which a computer shop put together according to specifications. I tried it in the shop and everything seemed ok. They packed up the lot and we took it home. I installed my DVD writer in it and screwed together the case. Noticed the case fans were not connected to the power supply, and could not find the proper connections from the power supply to connect them, so I left them like that for the time being.

Connected the monitor and the peripherals - mouse (USB), keyboard (PS/2), and firewire external hard drive. Connected all the equipment to a power strip and connected the power strip connector to the wall outlet.

Started up the computer. The computer sounded like a cricket on illegal substances, but Windows did boot up. However, the sound from inside the case continued to sound weird and quite loud. My GF accidentally touched the case and got an electric shock.

Decided to shut down the computer. The sound from inside the case gradually died out. Even after switching off the red switch on the power strip, I got a shock from the case. Quite a shock too - my hand still felt it more than an hour afterwards.

I disconnected the whole caboozle, unplugged the external hard drive and took it back to connect it to my laptop like before. But when I tried to start it up, my external hard drive sounded similar to the sounds from inside the computer case! My laptop did find the files on the hard drive, but the sound was so bad I eventually decided to turn it off. It has not sounded like this before! I also noticed that the ceiling light seemed to flicker when I connected the external hard drive to the laptop.

Any ideas what is going on? Are both my hard drives dead or salvagable? Can I solve the problem by getting all outlets properly grounded/earthed, or is there something else I need? (somebody told me about the quick fix of driving a 2 meter copper pole down through my lawn and attaching all unearthed equipment to it, but I know a highly recommended electrician and would not mind getting the entire house looked over. Wouldnt want one of those shocks in the shower.

Your ideas about the hard drive and the electricity situation?

[JackA]

Concerning the external hard drive, I believe it's the fan inside the casing that might give this awful sound. Ususally hard drives that start to fail either goes with a constant click click sound or kinda grinding - and it's usually not that loud. I believe both cases somehow relates to FANS (Maybe a cable obstructs a fan - not hard drives. And about the shock thing.... It's because there's no ground here in Thailand - and you'll need to ground the computer youself....

Good luck

[waldwolf]

If your house lights dim and anyone is getting shocks touching the computer case, you should IMMEDIATELY disconnet the system from all line-power sources, and call in that electrician friend to check your whole house for proper grounds, etc.

As far as the computer is concerned, you should have at least 2 fans in the case, one for the processor and one in the power supply. BOTH of these must be running or the corresponding items they cool will destroy themselves from excess heat. If your main power source (mains) is not properly grounded, or the voltage varies more than ±10 percent, the life of all your electrical/electronic equipment will be shortened. Appliances with motors (eg: A/C, refrigerators, fans, etc.) will destroy themselves, due heat, if the power is much less or greater than that specified by the manufacturer.

If you are also having problems with external hardware (eg: external drives) I suspect it is related to either the specific wall outlet your using or possibly the whole house wiring, effecting the various power supplies.

Take the computer back to the store you bought it from and make sure they connect ALL the fans and check the whole system, completely. If they failed to initially connect the fans, then they are responsible for any damage cause by an internal component failure.

Again, it is vital you have a professional check your home for proper wiring. Failure to do so could cause serious, even fatal shocks or burns.

DON'T WAIT...DO IT NOW !!!!

cheers

waldwolf

Edited January 8, 2006 by waldwolf

[huski]

Decided to shut down the computer. The sound from inside the case gradually died out. Even after switching off the red switch on the power strip, I got a shock from the case. Quite a shock too - my hand still felt it more than an hour afterwards.

get rid of the power strip you are using and buy a better brand. have seen this problem before.

[Tywais]

As others have indicated the sound may well be a loose wire coming in contact with the fan blades (not unusual if casually assembled).

The shock from the case is clearly a grounding issue. The PC power supply has a EMI/RFI filter on the A/C line for noise filtering. This consists of an inductor or two and capacitors. The capacitors are connected to each side of the power line (neutral and hot) and then to the computer case. If the case has no earth ground for A/C to return to, the case will float at 1/2 (the two caps act as an A/C voltage divider) the input voltage. This means your case is sitting at 110VAC above earth ground. Current is limited to the value of the capacitors but still can be quite discomforting.

As for the power strip, it depends on which side of the A/C line the switch is disconnecting. If it disconnects only the neutral side then the 220 side will still feed the case through the capacitor. Reversing the plug would correct it. However you do need to be sure you get a power strip that has a 'real' 3rd wire connection to the outlets (some have three wire plug but don't connect to the third prong in the strip). I put a 2-meter stake through the floor of my computer room then connected the 3rd wire of the power strips to this. No longer have a problem with touching my computer.

If you don't have the skills to do this then an electrician can do it easily.

Edited January 9, 2006 by tywais

[spog]

If your house lights dim and anyone is getting shocks touching the computer case, you should IMMEDIATELY disconnet the system from all line-power sources, and call in that electrician friend to check your whole house for proper grounds, etc.

Again, it is vital you have a professional check your home for proper wiring. Failure to do so could cause serious, even fatal shocks or burns.

DON'T WAIT...DO IT NOW !!!!

Listen to this man. You don't want to die in the shower. It's very undignified.

Apart from the excellent advice in this thread, I'd recommend throwing a UPS into the equation somewhere. They're not expensive and protect your against the crap power supply that you can get here.

[meadish_sweetball]

I have taken a closer look at the wiring in my house and it looks as if the water heater is grounded ok - the company electrician who installed it is from one of CM's leading companies for water heaters and air conditioning equipment. There is a small cable that leads out from the water heater out through the outer wall of the house and runs all the way down into the ground under the bushes into the earth. I did not dig to find out what happens underground, but I guess this should at least offer some protection.

Tomorrow I am having a professional electrician recommended by four independent farang CM residents come over and inspect the entire wiring. I will tell him to make sure everything is properly grounded. Do not want to take any chances.

If anybody knows where I can get reliable power strips with proper three prongs, I would be most grateful.(i.e. what brand, what type (if easily visible) and what shop in Chiang Mai. Approximate prices would be nice too.)

Thanks a million for all your excellent advice! :-)

[Abandon]

I'd have thought that the grounding is not the problem. Sure you should have a good ground cable, but the machine should not be producing a shock in the first place. Ground lines are for emergency/failiure - not for long term syphoning of a misfunctioning machine. Find out why it is producing the shock! Don't rely on just running the shock to ground.

[Tywais]

I'd have thought that the grounding is not the problem. Sure you should have a good ground cable, but the machine should not be producing a shock in the first place. Ground lines are for emergency/failiure - not for long term syphoning of a misfunctioning machine. Find out why it is producing the shock! Don't rely on just running the shock to ground.

I explained the reason the case is 'hot' in my previous post. I've seen this problem many times in not just computers but other electronics where a filter of this type is used. The ground is the return for the A/C emi/rfi filters also.

[meadish_sweetball]

Sure you should have a good ground cable, but the machine should not be producing a shock in the first place. Ground lines are for emergency/failiure - not for long term syphoning of a misfunctioning machine. Find out why it is producing the shock! Don't rely on just running the shock to ground.

That's exactly what the electrician said as well when I talked to him today and explained the situation. Somebody did a sloppy job in assembling it, was his assessment. I hope he has the skills to examine and fix it. The guy at the shop just said to attach a ground cable when we called and complained.

What about the external hard drive - it NEVER sounded like that before.

I have tried it out more today, and it sounds the worst starting up. It is as if it grinds into a halt and then tries again to get up to speed. Eventually it succeeds, but then after a while it will go back to squeaking/grinding again.

Could it be the bearings? It really does not sound like the fan, much more like the spinning action of the hard drive is not satisfactory. I tried to open it, but even with all the screws taken out, it was not very happy to be disattached. I think I will take it back to the shop where I bought it and ask what is as I dont want to mess it up any more by opening it myself.

[VaioLord]

Hi Meadish,

Sorry to here about your problems. If you do not have a UPS already I would recommend that you get one of those over a new power strip. The reason for this is that it will provide you with not only a small battery to run the computer when powers down but also it will ensure a clean flow of electic to the computer. The UPS can also usually be fushed and connect direct to an earth. You can see more on UPS' at www.apcc.com the best company but expensive here in Thailand.

On the actual workstaion I would look to see if EVERY single screw has a rubber washer. The people in the shop should have put these on of course. If they do not then I would recommend taking it back and asking them to do so. I kept getting small static shocks off my computer before they did this for me.

VaioLord

[Tywais]

So you can visualize why the case is giving a shock here is the schematic of the front side of a conventional PC power supply:

The red arrows point to the capacitor voltage divider which connects to the case ground. However if the shock is more then a sting but like putting your finger in a wall socket then the power supply may need to be replaced. You can tell by using an AC volt meter and measuring between the case and an earth ground. If it is around 110VAC then this is normal. If it reads 220VAC then one of the caps is bad or shorted.

[Highwayman]

On the actual workstaion I would look to see if EVERY single screw has a rubber washer. The people in the shop should have put these on of course. If they do not then I would recommend taking it back and asking them to do so. I kept getting small static shocks off my computer before they did this for me.

VaioLord

I hope "EVERY single screw" isn't meant to include the screws that attach the motherboard to the case plate. There are two sorts of motherboard holes, metal and non metal. The metal holes are meant to be screwed with ONLY the metal screw, NO WASHER so as to be grounded with the case.

Hi Meadish,

The reason for this is that it will provide you with not only a small battery to run the computer when powers down but also it will ensure a clean flow of electic to the computer. The UPS can also usually be fushed and connect direct to an earth. You can see more on UPS' at www.apcc.com the best company but expensive here in Thailand.

VaioLord

AFAIK the cheaper models of UPS do little to "clean' up the power supply, that's a feature only the more expensive models have.

[waldwolf]

What about the external hard drive - it NEVER sounded like that before.

I have tried it out more today, and it sounds the worst starting up. It is as if it grinds into a halt and then tries again to get up to speed. Eventually it succeeds, but then after a while it will go back to squeaking/grinding again.

Could it be the bearings? It really does not sound like the fan, much more like the spinning action of the hard drive is not satisfactory. I tried to open it, but even with all the screws taken out, it was not very happy to be disattached. I think I will take it back to the shop where I bought it and ask what is as I dont want to mess it up any more by opening it myself.

The external harddrive case will have its own power supply and I assume it has a USB cable connection to the main computer.

With the high voltage shocks you got from the main computer, it is possible a ground wire in the USB cable to the external drive carried a high voltage/current to that drive, damaging the drive motor, drive electronics or the external power supply itself.

If the external drive is as noisy as you state, I would suggest you back up all data while it is still running, as its working life may be very short.

All harddrive motors and platters are sealed and unserviceable, except by professional shops with "cleanrooms" and specialized test equipment. In most cases, attempting to repair a HDD is uneconomical, unless critical data needs to be recovered. Cost to recover such data can run 5-10 times the cost of a new HDD itself.

good luck

waldwolf

[lopburi3]

A proper outlet strip should be available from a place such as HomePro if you have up there or most computer supply stores. You can sometimes find in Lotus type places but more often than not they will be two wire looking like three wire units. Look for an orange adapter to two prong plug on the power cord and then deep six that adapter and never use in anything but a three socket outlet.

If you are going to put grounds throughout the house would strongly advise you also put GFI/ELCB type circuit breakers on all outlet circuits (if not everything) to provide added protection.

[meadish_sweetball]

The electrician was here and we went through the system together. We found that the water heater, one kitchen outlet, the outdoors telephone terminal and the air conditioners were grounded to the same copper rod outside in the flowerbed.

He is coming back to change all two-pronged wall outlets into three prong outlets and attach ground cables from them to that same copper rod.

Will the rubber washers for the screws in the case still be necessary?

Thanks again for all the advice. I am not sure I understand everything though. Here are some things that passed over my head:

Look for an orange adapter to two prong plug on the power cord and then deep six that adapter and never use in anything but a three socket outlet.

"Deep six" = destroy, bury?

[Tywais]

Will the rubber washers for the screws in the case still be necessary?

No...

Look for an orange adapter to two prong plug on the power cord and then deep six that adapter and never use in anything but a three socket outlet.

"Deep six" = destroy, bury?

Yes...

[Abandon]

But you still have to determine why it is shorting in the first place!! Don't just send the problem to ground. And what about the hard drives?

[meadish_sweetball]

Took the external hard drive back to the store where I bought it, the technician opened the case and we had a look inside, started it up and it was evident that the fan was the problem. My options are now to a.) Find a fan of the same size and specs to replace the old one b.) ditch the old case and b1.) Install the hard drive in a new external case b2.) install the hard drive in my desktop computer.

I think it will be the last option.

And Abandon, thanks for the advice, but I dont even know where to begin looking.

[Tywais]

Took the external hard drive back to the store where I bought it, the technician opened the case and we had a look inside, started it up and it was evident that the fan was the problem. My options are now to a.) Find a fan of the same size and specs to replace the old one b.) ditch the old case and b1.) Install the hard drive in a new external case b2.) install the hard drive in my desktop computer.

I think it will be the last option.

And Abandon, thanks for the advice, but I dont even know where to begin looking.

meadish, I've given the technical reasons (3-times) why the case is 'hot' and it is not unusual with an ungrounded PC. I've corrected that problem on many computers since I've been in Thailand with it's shortage (pun) of grounded outlets. Only had the problem once when in the US and that was due to an intentional removal of a ground wire from a system for testing purpose. Yes, I've been zapped by hot cases on several occasions before getting them grounded.

[lopburi3]

As tywais says don't worry about the computer case as it is most likely fine. If it blows a circuit breaker or ELCB after you ground it then you do have a problem.

[meadish_sweetball]

Took the external hard drive back to the store where I bought it, the technician opened the case and we had a look inside, started it up and it was evident that the fan was the problem. My options are now to a.) Find a fan of the same size and specs to replace the old one b.) ditch the old case and b1.) Install the hard drive in a new external case b2.) install the hard drive in my desktop computer.

I think it will be the last option.

And Abandon, thanks for the advice, but I dont even know where to begin looking.

meadish, I've given the technical reasons (3-times) why the case is 'hot' and it is not unusual with an ungrounded PC. I've corrected that problem on many computers since I've been in Thailand with it's shortage (pun) of grounded outlets. Only had the problem once when in the US and that was due to an intentional removal of a ground wire from a system for testing purpose. Yes, I've been zapped by hot cases on several occasions before getting them grounded.

I appreciate your efforts tywais - sorry for being a bit thick when it comes to learning things completely out of my field. My physics knowledge stops at 9th grade, and is all theoretical - whatever remains of it...

[Tywais]

I appreciate your efforts tywais - sorry for being a bit thick when it comes to learning things completely out of my field. My physics knowledge stops at 9th grade, and is all theoretical - whatever remains of it...

Not a problem, just wasn't sure if you were catching my posts. Occupational hazard of having worked in electronics for over 35 years, forget that what seems obvious to me isn't to someone outside of the field. Should of said what lopburi said, don't worry about it until after you get the grounding right.

[elkangorito]

The first thing to do is to safely assume that the Thai electrical system is below standard.

Due to the absense of an MEN link, the Thai neutral conductor will most likely be at a higher potential than zero volts. This situation causes untold problems.

For more info on an appropriate electrical installation, search for the "breaker box wiring" post.

It sounds to me that the possible high neutral voltage caused a low 'phase to neutral' voltage, which could possibly damage sensitive electronic equipment like your hard-drive.

By the way, as previously stated by another poster, a UPS will NOT help you in this situation. UPS units are designed to provide you with a 'seamless' power change over (from 'normal' to 'battery' supply), under 'loss of normal supply' conditions. Some UPS units do provide 'power filtering' but cost extra. UPS units WILL NOT correct problems with a faulty electrical system.