New Wrinkle: Probability Sin Sod Return Promise Will Be Broken?

[catbird]

Wait, my question is specific and new! :-)

I have in due diligence read tons of posts about

sin sod, including the pinned one, and my question has a

specific new wrinkle. I know the topic can get old,

but maybe my question will lead to new info out there.

I live in the US, have known my thai fiance for 4 years,

and we plan to marry in 5 months.

Does anyone have a sense of how commonly or uncommonly

promises to return sin sot are kept versus broken? I

want to avoid rumor, emotion, innuendo. Please don't

shoot from the hip if you really have no idea,

because what I learn will have consequences.

As context, my fiance is a higher education

instructor, regularly gives merit, and in the 4 years of

knowing her, she never ripped me off. Only once (and

it was recent) has she asked me for an unusual loan, and she was

fine when I had to say no. I was concerned about it, but asking

and being ok with a no is not so bad. She repeatedly says "the

right thing" as good symbolism at least, by saying she

isn't marrying me for my money, and she has a good

record in her observable behavior.

My fiance is not perfect but very honest overall,

and her parents are kind enough; though I was

able to visit them only once. They are small

farmers and she gave/gives them some monthly

support.

If the pledge to return the sin sot is usually broken,

that is, between 25% to 75% of the time, then, could it

be better for me to change the implicit agreement by

setting a new number, perhaps not demanding its return,

and if need, just reduce other marriage costs, or have

it used for the marriage costs.

I am the type of person who can take perceived

dishonesty pretty hard, or potentially anyway.

I don't want to be made so upset by a possible reversal

that it sours the wedding, or makes me reconsider it.

Here's to hoping we can stay on the thread, but more

than that, thanks for your responses.

Catbird

[irlguy1]

Mate in all honesty you are the only one that can really answer this. We can all quote forums and rumours but we do not know your girl or her family. You say the answers given here will have consequences??? Are you crazy?

If you know your partner as long as you say and know anything about the family then you are the only one that can have any relevant info.It matters not what the percentages are because every case is different.

Make your own decision and stick with it.

[theblether]

How much is involved here? Is it a relatively small amount that makes it irrelevant if you don't get it back? Or is it an amount that you are fearful of disclosing?

The fact that you are even concerned about the possibility of a broken promise tells me it's the latter.

Quite frankly, what a state of affairs that five months before marriage you are worrying about getting your sin sod back.

There's something wrong here.......what is it OP?

[hedonist44]

She repeatedly says "the

right thing" as good symbolism at least, by saying she

isn't marrying me for my money.

Sorry but in my experience if someone makes it a point to tell you this repeatedly, be careful...very careful.

[catbird]

Mate in all honesty you are the only one that can really answer this. We can all quote forums and rumours but we do not know your girl or her family. You say the answers given here will have consequences??? Are you crazy?

If you know your partner as long as you say and know anything about the family then you are the only one that can have any relevant info.It matters not what the percentages are because every case is different.

Make your own decision and stick with it.

Very good point.

[catbird]

How much is involved here? Is it a relatively small amount that makes it irrelevant if you don't get it back? Or is it an amount that you are fearful of disclosing?

The fact that you are even concerned about the possibility of a broken promise tells me it's the latter.

Quite frankly, what a state of affairs that five months before marriage you are worrying about getting your sin sod back.

There's something wrong here.......what is it OP?

Sure, something is wrong. The whole larger picture is under reconsideration. Most of it is too personal a matter to discuss here, but yeah, there it is.

Edited July 8, 2012 by catbird

[TommoPhysicist]

So let me get this straight .......

She wants an enormous amount of Sin-Sot, and you don't trust her to give it back.

Tell us again why you thinking of getting married to a greedy woman you don't trust?

Edited July 8, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[transam]

Has she been married before ?

[catbird]

So let me get this straight .......

She wants an enormous amount of Sin-Sot, and you don't trust her to give it back.

Tell us again why you thinking of getting married to a greedy woman you don't trust?

Huge good point, very coursely put. Can't get into the weeds, but good point. That's a bit of it, and the whole context is a bit of it, too.

Edited July 8, 2012 by catbird

[aussiebebe]

In my opinion, the probability is low that a promise to return money will be broken. I have no personal experience - my wife was married before and didn't pay but I have made various friends over the years and met people who have discussed this with me and just based on those accounts money was returned when promised. One guy I worked with had the dowry returned and could use it as a deposit on a house in his wife's name, for example.

Slightly off-topic however, this whole subject is blown out of all proportion - wait until your spouse or in-laws incur medical expenses, even if they have insurance, and you'll realize that dowry is the tip of the iceberg.

[catbird]

In my opinion, the probability is low that a promise to return money will be broken. I have no personal experience - my wife was married before and didn't pay but I have made various friends over the years and met people who have discussed this with me and just based on those accounts money was returned when promised. One guy I worked with had the dowry returned and could use it as a deposit on a house in his wife's name, for example.

Slightly off-topic however, this whole subject is blown out of all proportion - wait until your spouse or in-laws incur medical expenses, even if they have insurance, and you'll realize that dowry is the tip of the iceberg.

Yes, your last point, I can see that.

Edited July 8, 2012 by catbird

[transam]

Has she been married before ?

Again l ask. ?

[rodentwarrior]

My general understanding it that the man gives the dowry to the parents, and they give it to their daughter on marriage, to buy land or a house.

One advantage is that the foreign husband, in theory, cannot be said to have bought the land/house via his wife - which would be illegal under Thai Law.

Whatever happens, the man doesn't appear to get the money back!

Culture perhaps - but in my view quite crazy. I worked too hard to get my money, to give it away on the off chance I may get it back, or the marriage will work between two very different cultures.

In this case, it's much clearer to me at least. The OP is worried, and not just about the money, reading between the lines. If in doubt, stay out.

[rodentwarrior]

"She repeatedly says "the right thing" as good symbolism at least, by saying she isn't marrying me for my money, and she has a good record in her observable behavior."

You live in the US, you've never lived here, you've known her for 4 years but not actually spend more than a few weeks together. Oh dear, this is becoming a story I've often heard before.

Lets go with the symbolism then. Tell her she is quite correct in her belief that symbolism is fine, and as an example you will give a symbolic 'sin sod' of $500. Then you will find out how symbolic she becomes. Tell her you will lease some land for 30 years (quite legal for a foreigner) and build a house for you both, with a legal instrument called an infrastruct (?) so you are protected in Law and cannot be ejected. If she is fine with that, then consider things further. I suspect she will not be fine with that! But, for sure, you will know your own position better.

[catbird]

Has she been married before ?

Again l ask. ?

No, she has not been married before, no kids.

[transam]

Has she been married before ?

Again l ask. ?

No, she has not been married before, no kids.

Hmmmm, then cash must be available for mum.

[thuk]

My general understanding it that the man gives the dowry to the parents, and they give it to their daughter on marriage, to buy land or a house.

One advantage is that the foreign husband, in theory, cannot be said to have bought the land/house via his wife - which would be illegal under Thai Law.

Whatever happens, the man doesn't appear to get the money back!

Culture perhaps - but in my view quite crazy. I worked too hard to get my money, to give it away on the off chance I may get it back, or the marriage will work between two very different cultures.

In this case, it's much clearer to me at least. The OP is worried, and not just about the money, reading between the lines. If in doubt, stay out.

Hi, I have been reading this forum (TV) for awhile now. It came up when I search for Visa issue. Im a Lao lady and Thai and Lao have very similar culture and tradition so I will try my best to explain the concept of the term "Sin Sod" in our sense.

Men always give Sin Sod when marry women. The amount is depends on how much they can afford. Normally the women family will suggest the figures and the men or the men family can negotigate to the amount they deem afforable. As a general rule, they bride's parents will keep the Sin Sod. Generally, if they are not wealthy, they will often keep it but if they are financially comfortable, they will give it back to the couple as a way to help them start a life.

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

So if you ask me, it would be nicer if you give Sin Sod without demanding it back (because it will show to the parents how much you want to marry their daughter and how much you are willing to "buy" her). Give (or negotiate) to the amount where you feel comfortable giving.

Good luck

[TommoPhysicist]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Edited July 10, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[villagefarang]

Perhaps it is coming from rule based societies but foreigners here seem to enjoy debating Thai rules in ways that are totally irrelevant to Thais or the situations that one encounters.

It doesn’t matter what the rule is in most situations, only what you agree to. One simply needs to be pragmatic as each situation is different. You need to work it out yourself.

I was not asked for sin sot and not because I caused a fuss or refused. Thirteen years of marriage and our relationship is still great. Screw the rules and what everyone else says, just work it out with your girl.

The fact that you are asking this question and qualifying it with her resume and other justifications, with no mention of love or trust, tells me that it probably won’t workout anyway. So you may as well say goodbye and let her find someone more appropriate before she gets too old. Sounds like she has already wasted four good years on you.

[simple1]

How much is involved here? Is it a relatively small amount that makes it irrelevant if you don't get it back? Or is it an amount that you are fearful of disclosing?

The fact that you are even concerned about the possibility of a broken promise tells me it's the latter.

Quite frankly, what a state of affairs that five months before marriage you are worrying about getting your sin sod back.

There's something wrong here.......what is it OP?

Sure, something is wrong. The whole larger picture is under reconsideration. Most of it is too personal a matter to discuss here, but yeah, there it is.

If this is the case, then why are you asking about Sin Sot, rather than first of all resolving your concerns? Just me but Sin Sot,would be the last on my list if I had serious issues to be addressed prior to committing to my future partner.

Edited July 10, 2012 by simple1

[thuk]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Interesting to learn your tradition.

The only difference is my tradition view women/daughters as something valuable and the groom's family has to pay to take their daughters away.

If there is money involve, it doesnt always mean slavery or prostitution.

[transam]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Interesting to learn your tradition.

The only difference is my tradition view women/daughters as something valuable and the groom's family has to pay to take their daughters away.

If there is money involve, it doesnt always mean slavery or prostitution.

So, If the lady fools around after marriage, does the ''family'' give cash back to the guy for the inconvenience. ?

[thuk]

So, If the lady fools around after marriage, does the ''family'' give cash back to the guy for the inconvenience. ?

if you return it in the exact same state as when you get it lol

[TommoPhysicist]

Interesting to learn your tradition.

The only difference is my tradition view women/daughters as something valuable and the groom's family has to pay to take their daughters away.

In history most of the world viewed female children as 'worthless' (including China)

Only Thailand and a few other countries ever valued them.

Edited July 10, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[catbird]

"She repeatedly says "the right thing" as good symbolism at least, by saying she isn't marrying me for my money, and she has a good record in her observable behavior."

You live in the US, you've never lived here, you've known her for 4 years but not actually spend more than a few weeks together. Oh dear, this is becoming a story I've often heard before.

Lets go with the symbolism then. Tell her she is quite correct in her belief that symbolism is fine, and as an example you will give a symbolic 'sin sod' of $500. Then you will find out how symbolic she becomes. Tell her you will lease some land for 30 years (quite legal for a foreigner) and build a house for you both, with a legal instrument called an infrastruct (?) so you are protected in Law and cannot be ejected. If she is fine with that, then consider things further. I suspect she will not be fine with that! But, for sure, you will know your own position better.

This answer is useful by offering an option I hadn't thought of.

I can note that in 4 years, she never asked me for a penny, and proactively volunteered to share expenses of my visit.

Having said that, I am reading the book by Pirazzi and Vasant on topics including how the money-love mix really is different in Thailand, including the money burdens of husbands, including Thai men. And I have read forums in which it looked like the women, under family and cultural pressure, seemed to extort piles of money from their husband. If a guy doesn't know what he is getting into, it might always look like foul play.

I am not asking anyone to presume to know what will happen in my case.

Rather, I give details of my case to invite estimates of general probability over large numbers of cases. Of course, any one instance is impossible to predict.

A cynic reading horror stories would seem to suggest that *most* men who receive the "money return promise" get deceived.

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird

[catbird]

Has she been married before ?

Again l ask. ?

No, she has not been married before, no kids.

Hmmmm, then cash must be available for mum.

Lots of good answers. Short answers make me want to probe and inquire further.

I think this answer is saying that sin sod would be required in this instance, as she was not married before. I surmised that. Does this answer also have a relation to the question of probability of breaking promise to return sin sod?

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird

[catbird]

My general understanding it that the man gives the dowry to the parents, and they give it to their daughter on marriage, to buy land or a house.

One advantage is that the foreign husband, in theory, cannot be said to have bought the land/house via his wife - which would be illegal under Thai Law.

Whatever happens, the man doesn't appear to get the money back!

Culture perhaps - but in my view quite crazy. I worked too hard to get my money, to give it away on the off chance I may get it back, or the marriage will work between two very different cultures.

In this case, it's much clearer to me at least. The OP is worried, and not just about the money, reading between the lines. If in doubt, stay out.

Hi, I have been reading this forum (TV) for awhile now. It came up when I search for Visa issue. Im a Lao lady and Thai and Lao have very similar culture and tradition so I will try my best to explain the concept of the term "Sin Sod" in our sense.

Men always give Sin Sod when marry women. The amount is depends on how much they can afford. Normally the women family will suggest the figures and the men or the men family can negotigate to the amount they deem afforable. As a general rule, they bride's parents will keep the Sin Sod. Generally, if they are not wealthy, they will often keep it but if they are financially comfortable, they will give it back to the couple as a way to help them start a life.

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

So if you ask me, it would be nicer if you give Sin Sod without demanding it back (because it will show to the parents how much you want to marry their daughter and how much you are willing to "buy" her). Give (or negotiate) to the amount where you feel comfortable giving.

Good luck

Thank you for telling me.

I want everyone to feel respected.

Some forum readers here will want to resolve whether the tradition is right or wrong. I can't resolve that. So my question is empirical, that is, how commonly or uncommonly the promise is broken. It sounds like the poor family will be under very big pressure to keep the money.

If they are under very big cultural pressure to keep it, then it might make sense to cut the number in half, give it to them, but then carefully or discretely just cut my wedding costs in half. Then, both cultures are respected, so I might suppose.

[catbird]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Can sin sod be in the form of long term bonds purchased in the wife's name?

I should start a new thread for this question.

But, I wonder if it would be humiliating to offer the sin sod be in form of long terms bonds purchased in the name of the fiance. It serves the visceral function of flashing "money capability" around to prove she can be taken care of, and instead of cash that disappears, it is long term savings that really does help the future. Being in the name of the wife, it should please the family (it is not returned to the man per se) but yet, being in the name of the wife, it also supports the marriage, which would be consistent with Western tradition, in which the wedding gifts go the those getting married, not to parents.

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird

[catbird]

In our tradition, women will move in with the men after married therefore parents will feel like they "lose" their daughters and there will be no longer daughters around to help them in the house. So to the bribe's parents, Sin Sod is like money they "sell" their daughers for after many years raising them

In our tradition (long time past) the parents of women paid men to take something worthless off their hands.

To us Sin Sot sounds like slavery and prostitution.

Interesting to learn your tradition.

The only difference is my tradition view women/daughters as something valuable and the groom's family has to pay to take their daughters away.

If there is money involve, it doesnt always mean slavery or prostitution.

It is natural for US people to be shocked by the involvement of money in this topic. I was stunned, almost revolted, when I saw a video that showed how the money was paraded and displayed. Somebody needs to put a stake through that grotesque aspect of the practice right away. The public display of the money has nothing to do with being a good provider, for the same exchange could be done privately. The flashy display seems like it only could serve the purpose of showing off, getting status over the neighbors.

That is, for my vantage point, that's how it looks. But I'm reading and learning more all the time.

[catbird]

Perhaps it is coming from rule based societies but foreigners here seem to enjoy debating Thai rules in ways that are totally irrelevant to Thais or the situations that one encounters.

It doesn’t matter what the rule is in most situations, only what you agree to. One simply needs to be pragmatic as each situation is different. You need to work it out yourself.

I was not asked for sin sot and not because I caused a fuss or refused. Thirteen years of marriage and our relationship is still great. Screw the rules and what everyone else says, just work it out with your girl.

The fact that you are asking this question and qualifying it with her resume and other justifications, with no mention of love or trust, tells me that it probably won’t workout anyway. So you may as well say goodbye and let her find someone more appropriate before she gets too old. Sounds like she has already wasted four good years on you.

Lets not get too excited.

Love and devotion does not mean one should not double check one's perceptions. Love and trust does not mean closing oneself off from external outside information. Love and trust between the man and woman does not predict the behavior of the parents. Love and trust are great, but don't presume they are always perfectly stable and refined, or even perfectly appropriate, even in the best of worlds.

I am happy you married an angel. Don't let it distort your humanity toward others.

I didn't mention love and trust because of passing circumstances, because readers whom I am asking to be objective will tend, in their grizzled "wisdom", to downplay that subjective type of tender information anyway, because that's not on the topic (of sin sod), and maybe on that on the particular day I opened the post, I ate lots of prunes and didn't feel well, thank you very much.

I think other readers found it very relevant for me to include her resume, no matter if it sounded tin in the moment. I mentioned it not "for me" but for cynical readers who will wonder (because of reality) if my fiance had spent years in a profession in which "playing games" was a constant requirement.

Perhaps you did not notice that the focus of the post was the culture of sin sod, not the question of marriage. Nobody here has standing to advise on the latter, or certainly not without asking for clarifying information first. I acknowledged the current moment between us is complex, but that was my business. It was never the focus of this thread. It you can't be courteous, please at least stay on topic.

Edited July 13, 2012 by catbird