Uk: Birmingham Terror Suspects Accused Of Manufacturing Explosives

[Credo]

Why is it, I never read about Pastafarians, Methodists, Bahais, Jains. Druids, Jews, Calvinists, Atheists et al taking up arms against their neighbours in the UK? They have all suffered far worse over the centuries and yet, these assorted infidels do not collectively wage war against those that have allowed them the freedom of worship and protected their basic civil liberties?

They probably do take up arms, but the liberal, left-wing press and all the politicians and police cover it up!

[simple1]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

They do. One need only peruse some of the TVF posts which drip with hate, particularly those which wiish to blame the west or Christians or Jews for "provoking" this anti social behaviour.

The fact is that these 3 men join 3 other males; Anzal Hussain, Mohammed Saud, and Zohaib Ahmed in custody. Need I remind you that the latest arrests arose as the result of a a routine police stop of a vehicle on the M1 near Sheffield, South Yorkshire, on June 30. The police and found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device. This is hardly suggestive of the boys heading out on a picnic, or engaged in the devotional pursuit of spreading love and peace. Messrs Uddin, Khan and Hasseen are charged under the Terrorism Act 2006.

How exactly, can non-believers be blamed by these fine upstanding members of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi ethnic groups? The last I saw, imuch of the aid given to Pakistan and Bangladesh comes from the infidels. What I don't quite understand is how people that are citizens of the UK, can justify taking up arms against the people that are taxed to provide the aid to their beloved homelands.

Why is it, I never read about Pastafarians, Methodists, Bahais, Jains. Druids, Jews, Calvinists, Atheists et al taking up arms against their neighbours in the UK? They have all suffereed far worse over the centuries and yet, these assorrted infidels do not collectively wage war against those that have allowed them the freedom of worship and protected their basic civil liberties?

Tell us out of the groups you have mentioned which ones (excepting Israel) have had their homeland attacked, infrastructure destroyed and 1,000s killed by a foreign powers for political & commercials interests. It is inexcusable for extremists/terrorists to target civilians, but you cannot compare.

[geriatrickid]

Tell us out of the groups you have mentioned which ones (excepting Israel) have had their homeland attacked, infrastructure destroyed and 1,000s killed by a foreign powers for political & commercials interests. It is inexcusable for extremists/terrorists to target civilians, but you cannot compare.

That's your justification for the terrorists? It's rather weak.

A quick read of European history will provide multiple examples of the incidents you reference.. It wasn't too long ago that Europe was consumed by a war. How about North Korea's recent attacks on Japan and South Korea?

If one wants to go back further, the USA invaded Canada in 1812 assuming it would be a cakewalk. They were wrong and were defeated. There were massacres and untold atrocities, yet Canadians do not carry out hateful attacks on the USA. Iceland's government allowed one of the most obscene banking scandals that inflcited serious damage in the UK. How many UK nationals talk about blowing up car bombs in Iceland?.

When the Iranians seized the US embassy in Tehran and held the foreign diplomats hostage, it was an act of war, but how many Americans go around trying to kill Iranians in the USA as retaliation? China launched a massive internet attack on the Canadian government, infiltrating many of the most important departments and every year it steals industrial secrets in the USA, EU and elsewhere. Do the residents of these countries launch terror attacks in response to the loss of jobs and securty threats of the Chinese?

[simple1]

Tell us out of the groups you have mentioned which ones (excepting Israel) have had their homeland attacked, infrastructure destroyed and 1,000s killed by a foreign powers for political & commercials interests. It is inexcusable for extremists/terrorists to target civilians, but you cannot compare.

That's your justification for the terrorists? It's rather weak.

A quick read of European history will provide multiple examples of the incidents you reference.. It wasn't too long ago that Europe was consumed by a war. How about North Korea's recent attacks on Japan and South Korea?

If one wants to go back further, the USA invaded Canada in 1812 assuming it would be a cakewalk. They were wrong and were defeated. There were massacres and untold atrocities, yet Canadians do not carry out hateful attacks on the USA. Iceland's government allowed one of the most obscene banking scandals that inflcited serious damage in the UK. How many UK nationals talk about blowing up car bombs in Iceland?.

When the Iranians seized the US embassy in Tehran and held the foreign diplomats hostage, it was an act of war, but how many Americans go around trying to kill Iranians in the USA as retaliation? China launched a massive internet attack on the Canadian government, infiltrating many of the most important departments and every year it steals industrial secrets in the USA, EU and elsewhere. Do the residents of these countries launch terror attacks in response to the loss of jobs and securty threats of the Chinese?

Did I mention justification? No. Again you are using examples that have no comparison to the current situation in the Near/Middle East. let's move along as we are not going to agree.

BTW The examples you have provided regarding Canada with the Rupert's Land acquisition and the conflict in 1812 have proven interesting education as I was not aware of these matters, but appear to have been primarily driven by British colonial actions

Edited July 14, 2012 by simple1

[Steely Dan]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

Not wishing to open the same old can of worms, but indeed Jew and Zionist are completely interchangeable throughout much of Islam and the western left wing. Take a look at the press from any OIC nation if you want to see what real racism looks like. Finally the basis for infidel hatred is all in the scripture and pre-dates Zionism by over 1000 years.

You will know that Islam refers to People of the Book i.e. Jews and Christians who were in the region where Mohamed lived. You will also know Islam acknowledges the Prophets from the Jewish and Christian faiths. You have previously mentioned the highjacking of Islam by extremist agendas, so lets not brand all Muslims in a negative manner, as indeed the EDL Mission Statement underlines.

Again, I did not brand all Muslims negatively, I was commenting on Islam as an ideology that impacts on others, as oppose to where it may exist as a personal spiritual relationship between an individual and their maker. Perhaps it is best not to cherry pick examples though, as I could point to scores of negative passages about other religions which came after (abrogating) the earlier peaceful passages. Mohammad was supposed to have personally beheaded all the males from a Jewish tribe he defeated in Medina, then taking the women and children as slaves. Indeed on his death bed Mohammad was cited as asking his followers to rid the Arabian peninsula of all infidels.

As an afterthought brave individuals such as Zudhi Jasser is a practicing Muslim who rejects all the violent passages in the Koran, perhaps people like him could form the basis of a western school of Islamic jurisprudence compatible with democracy - but I venture he would receive many more death threats than the EDL for attempting such a thing.

[Ulysses G.]

Tell us out of the groups you have mentioned which ones (excepting Israel) have had their homeland attacked, infrastructure destroyed and 1,000s killed by a foreign powers for political & commercials interests. It is inexcusable for extremists/terrorists to target civilians, but you cannot compare.

That's your justification for the terrorists? It's rather weak.

A quick read of European history will provide multiple examples of the incidents you reference.. It wasn't too long ago that Europe was consumed by a war. How about North Korea's recent attacks on Japan and South Korea?

If one wants to go back further, the USA invaded Canada in 1812 assuming it would be a cakewalk. They were wrong and were defeated. There were massacres and untold atrocities, yet Canadians do not carry out hateful attacks on the USA. Iceland's government allowed one of the most obscene banking scandals that inflcited serious damage in the UK. How many UK nationals talk about blowing up car bombs in Iceland?.

When the Iranians seized the US embassy in Tehran and held the foreign diplomats hostage, it was an act of war, but how many Americans go around trying to kill Iranians in the USA as retaliation? China launched a massive internet attack on the Canadian government, infiltrating many of the most important departments and every year it steals industrial secrets in the USA, EU and elsewhere. Do the residents of these countries launch terror attacks in response to the loss of jobs and securty threats of the Chinese?

Did I mention justification?

You did not call your justification a justification, but, that is what it it is.

[simple1]

Tell us out of the groups you have mentioned which ones (excepting Israel) have had their homeland attacked, infrastructure destroyed and 1,000s killed by a foreign powers for political & commercials interests. It is inexcusable for extremists/terrorists to target civilians, but you cannot compare.

That's your justification for the terrorists? It's rather weak.

A quick read of European history will provide multiple examples of the incidents you reference.. It wasn't too long ago that Europe was consumed by a war. How about North Korea's recent attacks on Japan and South Korea?

If one wants to go back further, the USA invaded Canada in 1812 assuming it would be a cakewalk. They were wrong and were defeated. There were massacres and untold atrocities, yet Canadians do not carry out hateful attacks on the USA. Iceland's government allowed one of the most obscene banking scandals that inflcited serious damage in the UK. How many UK nationals talk about blowing up car bombs in Iceland?.

When the Iranians seized the US embassy in Tehran and held the foreign diplomats hostage, it was an act of war, but how many Americans go around trying to kill Iranians in the USA as retaliation? China launched a massive internet attack on the Canadian government, infiltrating many of the most important departments and every year it steals industrial secrets in the USA, EU and elsewhere. Do the residents of these countries launch terror attacks in response to the loss of jobs and securty threats of the Chinese?

Did I mention justification?

You did not call your justification a justification, but, that is what it it is.

Nope - Just talking about endeavouring to comprehend some of the driving forces of modern day Islamic terrorism. In my opinion it's not because their is this one blanket ideology of "kill the Infidels"

[simple1]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

Not wishing to open the same old can of worms, but indeed Jew and Zionist are completely interchangeable throughout much of Islam and the western left wing. Take a look at the press from any OIC nation if you want to see what real racism looks like. Finally the basis for infidel hatred is all in the scripture and pre-dates Zionism by over 1000 years.

You will know that Islam refers to People of the Book i.e. Jews and Christians who were in the region where Mohamed lived. You will also know Islam acknowledges the Prophets from the Jewish and Christian faiths. You have previously mentioned the highjacking of Islam by extremist agendas, so lets not brand all Muslims in a negative manner, as indeed the EDL Mission Statement underlines.

Again, I did not brand all Muslims negatively, I was commenting on Islam as an ideology that impacts on others, as oppose to where it may exist as a personal spiritual relationship between an individual and their maker. Perhaps it is best not to cherry pick examples though, as I could point to scores of negative passages about other religions which came after (abrogating) the earlier peaceful passages. Mohammad was supposed to have personally beheaded all the males from a Jewish tribe he defeated in Medina, then taking the women and children as slaves. Indeed on his death bed Mohammad was cited as asking his followers to rid the Arabian peninsula of all infidels.

As an afterthought brave individuals such as Zudhi Jasser is a practicing Muslim who rejects all the violent passages in the Koran, perhaps people like him could form the basis of a western school of Islamic jurisprudence compatible with democracy - but I venture he would receive many more death threats than the EDL for attempting such a thing.

Agreed, thought leadership has to start somewhere and traction will eventually occur. What is lacking in the public domain is individuals such as the person you refereed to, but obviously they do exist

EDIT. Yes it is also my understanding of the killings and enslavement in the region at that time. Infidels at that time were defined as non believers, not People of the Book.

Edited July 14, 2012 by simple1

[sauvagecheri]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

They do. One need only peruse some of the TVF posts which drip with hate, particularly those which wish to blame the west or Christians or Jews for "provoking" this anti social behaviour.

The fact is that these 3 men join 3 other males; Anzal Hussain, Mohammed Saud, and Zohaib Ahmed in custody. Need I remind you that the latest arrests arose as the result of a a routine police stop of a vehicle on the M1 near Sheffield, South Yorkshire, on June 30. The police found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device. This is hardly suggestive of the boys heading out on a picnic, or engaged in the devotional pursuit of spreading love and peace. Messrs Uddin, Khan and Hasseen are charged under the Terrorism Act 2006.

How exactly, can non-believers be blamed by these fine upstanding members of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi ethnic groups? The last I saw, much of the aid given to Pakistan and Bangladesh comes from the infidels. What I don't quite understand is how people that are citizens of the UK, can justify taking up arms against the people that are taxed to provide the aid to their beloved homelands.

Why is it, I never read about Pastafarians, Methodists, Bahais, Jains. Druids, Jews, Calvinists, Atheists et al taking up arms against their neighbours in the UK? They have all suffered far worse over the centuries and yet, these assorted infidels do not collectively wage war against those that have allowed them the freedom of worship and protected their basic civil liberties?

Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS ! Is this not amazing !

The genesis of this stupefying phenomena in to be learned in the scriptures and traditions ,which certainly do not speak of tolerance towards non believers or people of other faiths ,whatever it's worth .,islam is totally exclusive and violently antagonistic of anyone and anything not specifically dealt with and accepted by the body of scriptures ..period ! These must be followed blindly and without questioning or intellectual discourse .

Edited July 14, 2012 by sauvagecheri

[sauvagecheri]

The " People of the book" nevertheless were to submit to allah as sole deity and accept the prophet as it's only messenger and authority ,which they mocked and refused to do ,as such they were considered kaffir ,or kuffar ,meaning infidel and were subject to the ire of the muslims and islam ,and therefore were and still are today not worhy to be alive .

That is what islam teaches ,read yourself http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm,http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/quran.htm,http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_13_The_Pedophile_Pirate.Islam

[brit1984]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

They do. One need only peruse some of the TVF posts which drip with hate, particularly those which wish to blame the west or Christians or Jews for "provoking" this anti social behaviour.

The fact is that these 3 men join 3 other males; Anzal Hussain, Mohammed Saud, and Zohaib Ahmed in custody. Need I remind you that the latest arrests arose as the result of a a routine police stop of a vehicle on the M1 near Sheffield, South Yorkshire, on June 30. The police found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device. This is hardly suggestive of the boys heading out on a picnic, or engaged in the devotional pursuit of spreading love and peace. Messrs Uddin, Khan and Hasseen are charged under the Terrorism Act 2006.

How exactly, can non-believers be blamed by these fine upstanding members of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi ethnic groups? The last I saw, much of the aid given to Pakistan and Bangladesh comes from the infidels. What I don't quite understand is how people that are citizens of the UK, can justify taking up arms against the people that are taxed to provide the aid to their beloved homelands.

Why is it, I never read about Pastafarians, Methodists, Bahais, Jains. Druids, Jews, Calvinists, Atheists et al taking up arms against their neighbours in the UK? They have all suffered far worse over the centuries and yet, these assorted infidels do not collectively wage war against those that have allowed them the freedom of worship and protected their basic civil liberties?

Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS !

...or Christians, or Hindus, or Jews, or Atheists

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[simple1]

The " People of the book" nevertheless were to submit to allah as sole deity and accept the prophet as it's only messenger and authority ,which they mocked and refused to do ,as such they were considered kaffir ,or kuffar ,meaning infidel and were subject to the ire of the muslims and islam ,and therefore were and still are today not worhy to be alive .

That is what islam teaches ,read yourself http://www.thereligi...15-slavery.htm,http://www.thereligi...Quran/quran.htm,http://www.prophetof...le_Pirate.Islam

Your statement is incorrect, Islam teaches tolerance for "People of the Book". For a non extremist interpretation go to the following for a more truthful understanding.

http://en.wikipedia....ple_of_the_Book

Edited July 14, 2012 by simple1

[JUDAS]

"Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS !" This comment is actually incorrect in relation to the UK.

[sauvagecheri]

The " People of the book" nevertheless were to submit to allah as sole deity and accept the prophet as it's only messenger and authority ,which they mocked and refused to do ,as such they were considered kaffir ,or kuffar ,meaning infidel and were subject to the ire of the muslims and islam ,and therefore were and still are today not worhy to be alive .

That is what islam teaches ,read yourself http://www.thereligi...15-slavery.htm,http://www.thereligi...Quran/quran.htm,http://www.prophetof...le_Pirate.Islam

Your statement is incorrect, Islam teaches tolerance for "People of the Book". For a non extremist interpretation go to the following for a more truthful understanding.

http://en.wikipedia....ple_of_the_Book

You get your sources in Wikipedia ?,This is a joke ,can't you see for yourself ,there is NO mild version of islam..it is a fallacy islam IS extremism itself you cannot be a "Tolerant muslim it is just baked in the cake ,just open your eyes and look around ,why is it that some people insist to believe what they wish things could be ..A moderate muslim is not a muslim ,it is a simple as that .

[sauvagecheri]

A Muslim is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as an Islamist. Just as a Jew is an adherent to a religious faith, not the same as a Zionist. Just imagine if people in the West referred to Jews in the same derogatory and racist way that is the norm when talking about Muslims! Under the laws they would be prosecuted and locked up.No wonder the Muslims despise us. We are our own worst enemy. Nobody likes a hypocrite!

They do. One need only peruse some of the TVF posts which drip with hate, particularly those which wish to blame the west or Christians or Jews for "provoking" this anti social behaviour.

The fact is that these 3 men join 3 other males; Anzal Hussain, Mohammed Saud, and Zohaib Ahmed in custody. Need I remind you that the latest arrests arose as the result of a a routine police stop of a vehicle on the M1 near Sheffield, South Yorkshire, on June 30. The police found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device. This is hardly suggestive of the boys heading out on a picnic, or engaged in the devotional pursuit of spreading love and peace. Messrs Uddin, Khan and Hasseen are charged under the Terrorism Act 2006.

How exactly, can non-believers be blamed by these fine upstanding members of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi ethnic groups? The last I saw, much of the aid given to Pakistan and Bangladesh comes from the infidels. What I don't quite understand is how people that are citizens of the UK, can justify taking up arms against the people that are taxed to provide the aid to their beloved homelands.

Why is it, I never read about Pastafarians, Methodists, Bahais, Jains. Druids, Jews, Calvinists, Atheists et al taking up arms against their neighbours in the UK? They have all suffered far worse over the centuries and yet, these assorted infidels do not collectively wage war against those that have allowed them the freedom of worship and protected their basic civil liberties?

Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS !

...or Christians, or Hindus, or Jews, or Atheists

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

It would be interesting to obtain some hard data to back this statement ,from what I can see guess who's in the limelight most of the time right now ?The polices in the US are even hiding those facts and inventing new categories of crimes in order to disguise those facts ,the Obama admistration has classified the now famous army base attack where 13 service men were mowed down as " Workplace crime " honor killings are passed to " Asians " so as not to alarm the rest of us etc etc ..

[brit1984]

Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS !

...or Christians, or Hindus, or Jews, or Atheists

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

It would be interesting to obtain some hard data to back this statement ,from what I can see guess who's in the limelight most of the time right now ?The polices in the US are even hiding those facts and inventing new categories of crimes in order to disguise those facts ,the Obama admistration has classified the now famous army base attack where 13 service men were mowed down as " Workplace crime " honor killings are passed to " Asians " so as not to alarm the rest of us etc etc ..

Just google "Atheist terrorists", "Jewish terrorists", "Hindu terrorists" and "Christian terrorists" and you will find plenty of information.

You might also want to google "animal rights terrorists", "anti-abortion terrorists", "eco-terrorists" and "anarchist terrorists".

Hopefully you will then realise that many interest groups have extremists, not just Muslims, not even just religious groups.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

[simple1]

The " People of the book" nevertheless were to submit to allah as sole deity and accept the prophet as it's only messenger and authority ,which they mocked and refused to do ,as such they were considered kaffir ,or kuffar ,meaning infidel and were subject to the ire of the muslims and islam ,and therefore were and still are today not worhy to be alive .

That is what islam teaches ,read yourself http://www.thereligi...15-slavery.htm,http://www.thereligi...Quran/quran.htm,http://www.prophetof...le_Pirate.Islam

Your statement is incorrect, Islam teaches tolerance for "People of the Book". For a non extremist interpretation go to the following for a more truthful understanding.

http://en.wikipedia....ple_of_the_Book

You get your sources in Wikipedia ?,This is a joke ,can't you see for yourself ,there is NO mild version of islam..it is a fallacy islam IS extremism itself you cannot be a "Tolerant muslim it is just baked in the cake ,just open your eyes and look around ,why is it that some people insist to believe what they wish things could be ..A moderate muslim is not a muslim ,it is a simple as that .

Perhaps you should refer to some other sources, rather than extremist anti Muslim websites such as http://www.thereligionofpeace.com. No need to converse any further if you're going to post this absolute rubbish.

[Steely Dan]

I saw on the BBC website pictures of rapier missile batteries stationed at strategic locations around London and 3,500 extra troops have been assigned to games security. Meanwhile the EDL march in Bristol and the police have given Osman warnings to two of their number. An Osman warning is where the police have good reason to believe someone's life is threatened but don't have enough concrete information to act on.

This all comes against a backdrop of such politically correct denial that former home secretary Jacqui Smith called for Islamic terrorism to be referred to as anti Islamic activity Of course some moderates may ignore the violent parts of the Koran and Hadiths, but radicals correctly and accurately cite lines from scripture as justification for their violence. The west is in compete denial over this, which manifests itself in heavy handed policing and general vilification of anyone who points out the truth.

Whatever you think of the EDL politics, imagine the outcry if Muslims were treated in the same manner by the police.

http://www.gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/07/you-cant-hide-truth.html

[Steely Dan]

Not all muslims are terrorists ,but nearly all terrorists ARE MUSLIMS !

...or Christians, or Hindus, or Jews, or Atheists

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

It would be interesting to obtain some hard data to back this statement ,from what I can see guess who's in the limelight most of the time right now ?The polices in the US are even hiding those facts and inventing new categories of crimes in order to disguise those facts ,the Obama admistration has classified the now famous army base attack where 13 service men were mowed down as " Workplace crime " honor killings are passed to " Asians " so as not to alarm the rest of us etc etc ..

Just google "Atheist terrorists", "Jewish terrorists", "Hindu terrorists" and "Christian terrorists" and you will find plenty of information.

You might also want to google "animal rights terrorists", "anti-abortion terrorists", "eco-terrorists" and "anarchist terrorists".

Hopefully you will then realise that many interest groups have extremists, not just Muslims, not even just religious groups.

Sent from iPhone; please forgive any typos or violations of forum rules

Yes, but how about numbers, contemporary numbers at that. I can understand how the 'religion of peace' website may be seen as offensive, but it in essence collates casualties from terrorist attacks based on external news sources. Here is what I found by googling the top 10 terrorist groups - Now who will be the first to discredit the news source?

http://exploredia.co...rrorist-groups/

Edit: List compiled Nov 2010, I wager Boko Haram would make the list today, though linking their gripe with any western act is a challenge.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Steely Dan

[brit1984]

Yes, but how about numbers, contemporary numbers at that. I can understand how the 'religion of peace' website may be seen as offensive, but it in essence collates casualties from terrorist attacks based on external news sources. Here is what I found by googling the top 10 terrorist groups - Now who will be the first to discredit the news source?

http://exploredia.co...rrorist-groups/

Edit: List compiled Nov 2010, I wager Boko Haram would make the list today, though linking their gripe with any western act is a challenge.

I would agree that most of the biggest ORGANISED terror groups in the WORLD TODAY claim some connection to Islam, although there are many large non-islamic organised terrorist groups such as the National Liberation Army in Colombia, the Tamil Tigers and the various branches of Maoists, as well as countless smaller non-islamic terrorist groups or individuals (e.g. Anders Breivik the "christian crusader").

It is also worth remembering that the big organised terror groups connected to Islam are mostly killing fellow muslims (and mostly in countries where the rule of law is currently lacking, as well as many other deep societal problems, caused in many cases by decades of dictatorship or at least absence of properly functioning democracy). The number of deaths caused by organised muslim terror groups in the West is relatively low.

The most important point for me is that Islamic (or any other) ideology is rarely the cause of terrorism (+90% of muslims do not condone terrorism). Rather it is an excuse to justify anger, hatred and violence that is actually caused by poverty, lack of freedom, peer pressure and various psychological problems.

In any case, even if the muslim / islamic faith was a major cause of terrorism, we cannot deny people their religious beliefs (or discriminate against people on the basis of their religious beliefs), as that would be unfair to the vast majority of moderates, and would certainly spur terrorism to become a much more significant issue than it is today.

[endure]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

[sauvagecheri]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

I hope you are right ,But the facts speak for themselves ,I am totally sure most Muslim people are fine folks ,just like the pre WW2 German folks were great people ,so are the Russians .Not to mention the Cambodians .The problem lies with some hard core ideologists that know how to whip the good people in murderous frenzy .

[cdnvic]

Please stick to discussing the topic. If you wish to crusade against someone's religion, do it elsewhere.

[simple1]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

i echo your sentiments. My Thai extended family are Muslims who were born and raised in Pattaya (approx 200 members). Naturally many interact with Westeners in their daily lives whether they be motor bike taxi drivers, builders and so on. One was recently elected the Governor of Chon Buri. With a few exceptions, they are hard working, honest and do not scam tourists. When talking about foreigners they say some are good, some are bad (rude, drunk etc), but their is no hate. In summary good people.

[endure]

Do any of you actually know or interact with Muslims? I do - every day. I go into their shops and post offices and fix stuff that's gone wrong. All the ones I meet are just like everyone else. They have families that they want to care of. They want a peaceful life with their neighbours. These 'Gates of Vienna' threads remind me of another forum I used to take part in. It was a technical forum but had an off-topic area. There were quite a few Americans who used to take part. There was a guy from New York who dissed the MSM and quoted Daniel Pipes and other similar blogs regularly. He was very bright - easy to get on with. I asked him the same question I ask here. His answer was that there was a guy at work who looked Middle Eastern who he thought might be a Muslim but he wasn't sure. That was it - his total experience of Muslims outside of the blogosphere. I used to work for a Muslim guy. He'd done the Hajj three times. His day job was a very well regarded GP. His patients thought the sun shone out of his arse. There are Muslim extremists but they are vastly outnumbered by decent Muslims.

I hope you are right ,But the facts speak for themselves ,I am totally sure most Muslim people are fine folks ,just like the pre WW2 German folks were great people ,so are the Russians .Not to mention the Cambodians .The problem lies with some hard core ideologists that know how to whip the good people in murderous frenzy .

So do you know any Muslims?

[Steely Dan]

.../

It is also worth remembering that the big organised terror groups connected to Islam are mostly killing fellow muslims (and mostly in countries where the rule of law is currently lacking, as well as many other deep societal problems, caused in many cases by decades of dictatorship or at least absence of properly functioning democracy). The number of deaths caused by organised muslim terror groups in the West is relatively low.

The most important point for me is that Islamic (or any other) ideology is rarely the cause of terrorism (+90% of muslims do not condone terrorism). Rather it is an excuse to justify anger, hatred and violence that is actually caused by poverty, lack of freedom, peer pressure and various psychological problems.

In any case, even if the muslim / islamic faith was a major cause of terrorism, we cannot deny people their religious beliefs (or discriminate against people on the basis of their religious beliefs), as that would be unfair to the vast majority of moderates, and would certainly spur terrorism to become a much more significant issue than it is today.

You make several interesting points. The thread concerns the UK, so I will try to focus on it. With regards to the causes of terror, do you really still believe that old poverty argument, or lack of freedom for that matter? The arrested are British citizens, they don't starve and have freedom of worship. So what motive remains? I would strongly suggest Ideology, which by brainwashing damages the ego, or self hence in a way, yes psychological problems. As for the majority of Muslims condemning terror, it depends on which opinion poll you look at. Brevity stops me expanding too much but surveys of Britons of Pakistani origin point to worryingly large numbers with what we consider radical views.

The question is what to do about it? Banning or suppressing religion a la Saudi Arabia is not what we do, but dealing with something part religion and part political ideology is a headache unique to Islam.

I don't think there are any easy answers, but at least stopping denial and asking some tough questions would be a start as this problem will not go away by pretending it doesn't exist.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Steely Dan

[brit1984]

The idea that muslim ideology is the cause of islamic terrorism is just wrong. The muslim faith has existed for over 1000 years but most of the islamic terrorist groups have only recently gained popularity.

The vast majority of British muslims (and all muslims around the world, in fact) are just as opposed to terrorism as everyone else. I don't know where you could have found a survey that suggests otherwise. The very small number that do become involved in terrorism are generally members of the disaffected youth who (erroneously in my opinion but not unsurprisingly given the negative picture painted by the media) lack confidence about (and fear) the future.

A small minority of young people of any background end up taking the wrong path to seek attention, whether that be by joining gangs, dealing drugs, football hooliganism, following the National Front, committing random senseless crimes such as arson or graffiti, or supporting terrorism. It is not surprising that a small minority of Muslim youths see the huge coverage the media gives to Islamic terrorism and see that as a way to gain attention.

Nobody here is denying that Islamic terrorist groups exist but it is important to put the issue into perspective (in comparison to the many other problems in the world today). As I said before, discrimination against muslims will not reduce (but probably will promote) islamic terrorism.

The way to deal with terrorist threats (of all types) is intelligence (which is of course facilitated by engagement with and fair treatment of the muslim community at large). This the way the Brtiish police are dealing with the threat from terrorism and (it cannot be denied) they are doing an excellent job.

[Steely Dan]

The idea that muslim ideology is the cause of islamic terrorism is just wrong. The muslim faith has existed for over 1000 years but most of the islamic terrorist groups have only recently gained popularity.

If you do some research you will find that Islamic aggression against Europe started almost from the start and preceded the crusades by centuries. Indeed the battle of Tours and the siege of Vienna marked the high water mark of the last two jihads to subjugate the west so to paint a picture that problems are all recent is misleading. As for Muslim opinions in the UK, you are I'm afraid also plain wrong.

http://my.telegraph....hink-of-the-uk/

Now pick through that in all it's troubling detail. I will focus as an example that 24% of Muslims think the 7/7 bombings were justified. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of people here. Or 7% of British Muslims support suicide bombings in the UK - that's tens of thousands. Finally how about the 45% who think the U.S or Israel carried out the 9/11 attacks. There is a massive elephant in the room and understandably after investing so much in the myth of multiculturalism governments are panicking about what on earth to do.

Finally I don't see any discrimination against Muslims, rather the converse with the police refusing to investigate major criminal activity for fear of damaging community relations.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Steely Dan

[brit1984]

The idea that muslim ideology is the cause of islamic terrorism is just wrong. The muslim faith has existed for over 1000 years but most of the islamic terrorist groups have only recently gained popularity.

If you do some research you will find that Islamic aggression against Europe started almost from the start and preceded the crusades by centuries. Indeed the battle of Tours and the siege of Vienna marked the high water mark of the last two jihads to subjugate the west so to paint a picture that problems are all recent is misleading. As for Muslim opinions in the UK, you are I'm afraid also plain wrong.

http://my.telegraph....hink-of-the-uk/

Now pick through that in all it's troubling detail. I will focus as an example that 24% of Muslims think the 7/7 bombings were justified. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of people here. Or how about the 45% who think the U.S or Israel carried out the 9/11 attacks. There is a massive elephant in the room and understandably after investing so much in the myth of multiculturalism governments are panicking about what on earth to do.

The figures you quoted are from a channel 4 poll. I cannot think of many mediums that are more likely to draw respondents from the disaffected youth. While the percentages that believe in conspiracy theories are strangely high, with regards to support for terrorists, all the respectable sources in your link suggest that +90% of muslims (i.e. of the British muslim population as a whole) are opposed to terrorism.

With regards to the history of Islamic terrorism, to suggest that the history of the muslim faith has been any more violent or deadly than other faiths over the last 1000 years is wrong. We are all well aware that groups of all religious backgrounds (and maybe even more so atheists) have caused much death and destruction in the past (normally when a lunatic or group of lunatics gain power in any particular group).

As I said in my last post, nobody is denying there is an issue of organised islamic terrorism groups in the world today, and that this affects the UK (although obviously much less than it affects other countries in the muslim world). However, as I also said the police and intelligence agencies are doing an excellent job of controlling this issue with their current approach of enagement with the muslim community.

Do you have any alternative suggestions to control terrorism? (i.e. that do not involve discrimination against people based on their religious beliefs and that are not likely to fuel further terrorism).

[BigC]

They get charged with the terrisome act and it only goes to the Magistrates Court.

These people should be on death row!

Why do they always seem to come from Birmingham

no doubt they shall be free in a few years and welcomed as heros to Pakistan.

Why is the U.K so weak !

Edited July 15, 2012 by Scott
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