Advice On Mastering Tones?

[ForumUsername]

Hi all,

So I'm currently two months into my journey of learning the Thai Language and i think I'm having some quick success. I've been putting in 2-3 hours per day and can have some conversations (albeit very basic). My vocabulary list is growing, but I'll be the first to admit that my understanding of tones is terrible. I go to a school part-time and I recently realised how far behind I am in this area - both in pronouncing and hearing.

I am more than happy to put the hours in, but I can't help but think I'm going about this the wrong way. Are there any good online courses that you recommend where I can learn this better, or a daily "practice" I can implement to help out with this?

I am aware of the website where it plays a word and you have to guess the tone, but it feels exactly like that (guessing) rather than me actually learning anything.

Thank you in advance!

[AyG]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

For pronunciation, mechanical drills can be helpful. Pick a consonant and a vowel and pronounce them with each of the tones in turn. Probably best to start with a long vowel and an easy consonant (i.e. not por plaa or tor taw).

Probably the hardest tone to master is the high tone, which usually dips slightly before rising.

[richsilver]

I paid a Thai friend to work with me one-on-one for a 2-3 hours a week for many months. I would read aloud from books or magazine and he would slap my wrist whenever I got the tone wrong. It really helped.

[bytebuster]

. 18 minutes that change the whole picture

[misterme]

You are studying Thai using their script, not the 'abc' alphabet, right?

If you are learning Thai using Thai script, the likelyhood that you will be able to pronounce the words soon is very high. If you are using 'abc's', you are just fooling yourself and will only be able to learn to a very weak level.

[Johpa]

. 18 minutes that change the whole picture

Now that is a good non-academic discussion of tones. He uses the same method that I use to use in my early Thai classes 30 some years ago to reinforce my tones, to use to use the hand to mimick the tone like a conductor, even moving my hand in small movements under the table in class as there were only six of us sitting around one large table in my first year Thai class at the university. You may laugh, but notice the neural link between hand and mouth the next time you thread a needle and notice your lips moving during the effort. The guy also gives a good explanation as to how tones, delivered on the vowels, are derived from the phonetics of the surrounding consonants. That is why it is helpful to have an elementary understanding of phonology to help understand why we usually have high tones in English when a syllable ends with an unvoiced consonant (p,t,k) and a lower tone (and longer vowel) when we end a syllable with the corresponding voiced consonant (b,d,g). Here are a few paired examples in English: bead/beat, made/mate, goad/goat.

[ForumUsername]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

For pronunciation, mechanical drills can be helpful. Pick a consonant and a vowel and pronounce them with each of the tones in turn. Probably best to start with a long vowel and an easy consonant (i.e. not por plaa or tor taw).

Probably the hardest tone to master is the high tone, which usually dips slightly before rising.

Thank you for the advice! I think tone drills might be a good idea.

I paid a Thai friend to work with me one-on-one for a 2-3 hours a week for many months. I would read aloud from books or magazine and he would slap my wrist whenever I got the tone wrong. It really helped.

Hah, that's quite funny, but I can see how it would be effective. Thank you!

. 18 minutes that change the whole picture

Appreciate it; watching now

You are studying Thai using their script, not the 'abc' alphabet, right?

If you are learning Thai using Thai script, the likelyhood that you will be able to pronounce the words soon is very high. If you are using 'abc's', you are just fooling yourself and will only be able to learn to a very weak level.

Yes sir, I can read quite well as I make it a daily habit to try and read everything I see (no matter how uninteresting, like the stickers on my fridge). I haven't totally mastered reading the tones though, but I'm working on it

[CaptHaddock]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

Ridiculously incorrect. You should be able to learn to distinguish the tones even of isolated words. Learning to hear the tones is critical, not only to understand the word spoken (tones are phonemes! they are not optional for identifying words, although you can sometimes use context or other cues to resolve ambiguity), but also to learn how to pronounce the tones yourself. Where did you pick up the nonsense that pronouncing tones is not possible in a whisper? If you are unable to pronounce the tones Thais will not understand you although they may sometimes figure out what you are saying from other cues, also. The goal is to learn to speak Thai clearly for which correct tones are essential.

Exercises to distinguish words that differ only by tone, by similar consonants or otherwise phonemically close are very valuable in developing listening comprehension skills in Thai. Getting a native Thai speaker to correct the defects in your pronunciation, including tones, would be very useful.

[Morakot]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

Ridiculously incorrect. You should be able to learn to distinguish the tones even of isolated words. Learning to hear the tones is critical, not only to understand the word spoken (tones are phonemes! they are not optional for identifying words, although you can sometimes use context or other cues to resolve ambiguity), but also to learn how to pronounce the tones yourself. Where did you pick up the nonsense that pronouncing tones is not possible in a whisper? If you are unable to pronounce the tones Thais will not understand you although they may sometimes figure out what you are saying from other cues, also. The goal is to learn to speak Thai clearly for which correct tones are essential.

Exercises to distinguish words that differ only by tone, by similar consonants or otherwise phonemically close are very valuable in developing listening comprehension skills in Thai. Getting a native Thai speaker to correct the defects in your pronunciation, including tones, would be very useful.

The above reply is not a particularly good approach to having a meaningful conversation!

I assume the member was talking about his or her approach to speaking and understanding Thai. There is nothing correct or incorrect about a person's way of interacting with others, if it is merely a personal experience. Please try to show a bit more respect, regardless whether you may know of more efficient ways of mastering a language.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Morakot

[CaptHaddock]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

Ridiculously incorrect. You should be able to learn to distinguish the tones even of isolated words. Learning to hear the tones is critical, not only to understand the word spoken (tones are phonemes! they are not optional for identifying words, although you can sometimes use context or other cues to resolve ambiguity), but also to learn how to pronounce the tones yourself. Where did you pick up the nonsense that pronouncing tones is not possible in a whisper? If you are unable to pronounce the tones Thais will not understand you although they may sometimes figure out what you are saying from other cues, also. The goal is to learn to speak Thai clearly for which correct tones are essential.

Exercises to distinguish words that differ only by tone, by similar consonants or otherwise phonemically close are very valuable in developing listening comprehension skills in Thai. Getting a native Thai speaker to correct the defects in your pronunciation, including tones, would be very useful.

The above reply is not a particularly good approach to having a meaningful conversation!

I assume the member was talking about his or her approach to speaking and understanding Thai. There is nothing correct or incorrect about a person's way of interacting with others, if it is merely a personal experience. Please try to show a bit more respect, regardless whether you may know of more efficient ways of mastering a language.

Morakot,

A recommendation of how to fail at language learning is not worthy of my respect. It's reprehensible, in fact. I would encourage the OP to do the work necessary to learn Thai well, which is well within the reach of anyone willing to work at it, and ignore the self-defeating excuses of those who have failed to do so. Where do you get the ridiculous idea that all opinions are correct?

Haddock

[Morakot]

Hearing an individual word out of context and ascertaining its tone isn't easy. It's also not a very realistic activity. Personally I wouldn't worry about hearing the tones correctly too much, since you will usually know what a word means from the context. (Thai people can understand each other when they whisper, and in whispering it's physiologically impossible to impart tones.)

Ridiculously incorrect. You should be able to learn to distinguish the tones even of isolated words. Learning to hear the tones is critical, not only to understand the word spoken (tones are phonemes! they are not optional for identifying words, although you can sometimes use context or other cues to resolve ambiguity), but also to learn how to pronounce the tones yourself. Where did you pick up the nonsense that pronouncing tones is not possible in a whisper? If you are unable to pronounce the tones Thais will not understand you although they may sometimes figure out what you are saying from other cues, also. The goal is to learn to speak Thai clearly for which correct tones are essential.

Exercises to distinguish words that differ only by tone, by similar consonants or otherwise phonemically close are very valuable in developing listening comprehension skills in Thai. Getting a native Thai speaker to correct the defects in your pronunciation, including tones, would be very useful.

The above reply is not a particularly good approach to having a meaningful conversation!

I assume the member was talking about his or her approach to speaking and understanding Thai. There is nothing correct or incorrect about a person's way of interacting with others, if it is merely a personal experience. Please try to show a bit more respect, regardless whether you may know of more efficient ways of mastering a language.

Morakot,

A recommendation of how to fail at language learning is not worthy of my respect. It's reprehensible, in fact. I would encourage the OP to do the work necessary to learn Thai well, which is well within the reach of anyone willing to work at it, and ignore the self-defeating excuses of those who have failed to do so. Where do you get the ridiculous idea that all opinions are correct?

Haddock

Is not an issue of being correct or incorrect. It's a matter of basic courtesy and politeness in the art of conversation.

[Morakot]

Where do you get the ridiculous idea that all opinions are correct?

Correct in relation to what?

[oysters]

Op you can read quite well after 2 months.

Congrats to you!!

What method do you use?

Thanks

O

[ForumUsername]

Op you can read quite well after 2 months.

Congrats to you!!

What method do you use?

Thanks

O

When I say read I mean I can mouth out the sounds. I don't necessarily know what I'm saying - though some words are used far more often than I thought. I literally just try and read everything (subtitles, product stickers, restaurant menus) so my reading is getting faster, but again I'm not always sure about separate words, I just do it because I'm in this for the long-haul

[hiero]

After about 4-5 years of learning on and off it was only about 6 months ago I really started to learn the tone rules a sin I know, I guess I never really took them that seriously

Now the obvious words I would pronounce fine as i'd heard them so many times the tones was just naturally be correct. Unless the word had a ๋ or a ๊ I was not 100% sure. Now I always understood probably based on accent maybe or structure of sentances etc, however I knew the thai hard to put in overtime to work out exactly what I meant and obivously were misunderstanding a few things.

I met a thai english student about 6 months ago and we started teaching each other (its working out well), and she would create a dialog for me to read. Now in regular conversation she wouldn't comment on my mistakes but as soon as I started reading the dialog she was in fits (laughing) as I was making so many mistakes. So I hit the books and worked out the tones rules which in fairness given that I can read newspapers etc fine didn'take me a long time however I still have to have a quick think before certain words that don't follow the regular tones rules etc.

my advice, it's boring and seems like an exhaustive exercise when you first start to read to learn this but it will really benefit you.

http://slice-of-thai.com/voice-viewer/#exe

Nice bit of software to help you check what you're saying follows the right tones.

[meadish_sweetball]

Drill, drill, drill, drill. Use nonsense syllables, and concentrate on one tone at a time first. Make sure every syllable you do has exactly the same pitch curve - look out for 'list pronunciation' - it will trip you up. In many languages, reading out single words (or numbers) in a list or in succession, will cause the pitch to go up at the end of each word, and down on the last word. Obviously this messes up the tones of Thai. So don't do it. Each syllable is always a separate entity. (later on, you will find that tones spoken in sentences do change according to their environment, but they do this in a regular way that is particular to Thai, so you can't get away with replacing this with your mother tongue's tendencies. For now, speak like a robot, the first goal is to learn the tones in isolation on single syllables).

When you drill the tones, also make sure you understand the vowel lengths and get them absolutely correct, because the two concepts tie in with each other.

In the everyday language, these things are not as clear-cut, but if you start from an understanding of how the formal language is built up, it is easier to adjust the other way, than it is to learn street Thai and then trying to make sense of the formal pronunciation of the language.

[ForumUsername]

Thank you all for the replies.

That voice viewer program looks really interesting, but unfortunately I'm on a Mac so can't run it. I'll see if there's anything for OSX and report back

[Gaccha]

. 18 minutes that change the whole picture

That confirmed my belief that I am relative tone deaf. I was unable to distinguish the tones when he tests us in the video. My brain locks on to the final sound. I have been studying for 4years and can chat to a fairly high level using the right tones. So how do I do it?

If anyone else is in my position I recommend learning the words individually. I listen to a word until I can replicate its sound exactly every time. Even when I can perfectly replicate I cannot tell you the tone. It is as if the sounds for each word are not categorised by my brain but are just harmonies specific to that word.

I hope this acts as some encouragement for others in my position. The "nobody is tone deaf" trope is tiresome.

[Parvis]

If you can replicate (imitate) a sound with a lot of practice - you therefore can hear the different tones - but you do not necessarily associate what you hear (and replicate) with a specific "tone name" - but with a "specific word".

Therefore, by learning specific words pronounced correctly (preferably in context) you are understood and can communicate effectively.

As has been pointed out - the real problem arises when you read a passage aloud - and expect to be understood - without knowing and having practiced tone rules. However, this problem ONLY arises when you learn to read and write Thai script.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Parvis

[GaoYuk]

What I did was pick a word that you will hear many times throughout the day and memorise that tone, for example

บ้าน - home - falling tone

ไป / จาน - go / plate - mid tone

ไหม่ - new - Low tone

สอง - 2 - rising tone

เช็ค (บิล) check ( bill ) - high tone

Once you know all the tonal rules, if you don't already, will make things easier..good luck

[bobthedog]

I feel that learning Thai from watching TV is a good way to expand my vocabulary. Furthermore I don't have to think to much about the tones anymore, as I just pronounce the words as I remember them from the way I've heard them on TV. Seems to work with me. I like to watch lakorns myself, so if you're into these TV-dramas, I can recommend it as a way of learning. I watch about 1-3 hours of lakorn dramas daily. It will teach you a lot about Thai culture as well, I suppose.