Red-Shirts Have Mixed Feelings Over Constitution Court Verdict

[GeorgeO]

The problem with the red shirts is simple.

When the Yellow shirts were instumental in ousting the corrupt caretaker government of Thaksin Shinawatra, they came late to the table in the role of Thaksin bodyguards and showed their thuggery in places like Chiang Mai and Khon Khen.

The Yellows continued to out manoevre and out smart them during the Samak and Somchai administrations and in reality it wasn't until groups of lawmakers switched sides and tilted the balance in the house to allow for Abhisit to take the helm that they started to get their act together.

True to their earlier form, they attempted to copy what the Yellows did - but violently. This culminated in the 2010 Rajaprasong violence where their whole raison d'etre was to force a violent coup d'etat, the very thing that they stood against.

That raison d'etre morphed once again. Abhisit offered them elections and they accepted. The man from Dubai wanted blood on the streets. The reds reneged. Bloodshed was unavoidable.

In the end Abhisit gallantly and honourably gave them elections, as he had pomised to do, once the country had calmed down.

Thaksin appointed his "clone" sister. Thought to be a novice and certainly proved to be a novice, the Red Shirts occupied the role of bodyguards once more. PTP made several election promises, most of which turned out to be lies. The novice selected a cabinet based on nepotism and the repayment of favours and duly screwed up the handling of the floods. Most election promises started to disappear down the toilet and the government looked shot to bits. The reds were not happy. Thaksin had showed his hand. They were pawns. They had been used. Go back to your rice farms.

Despite all the red shirt noise about justice for the dead of Rajaprasong, the PTP had paid the families of the dead and injured and made them sign away the right to persue claims against the Thai government. They were a spent force. Paid up by tax-payers money.

Thaksin and PTP needed something to get the reds back on board. They knew that a rewrite of the constitution would bring out the yellows and they knew that of the yellows came out, the reds would focus on that. That proved to be the case. Thida and Jatuporn and Korkeaw to name but a few could smell blood. They thought they were movong to the end game. Out smarted once again. All of the noise was just another loss of face to the red shirts.

So the red shirts have played the role of Thalsin bodyguard, violent Thaksin mercenaries, cannon fodder, bodyguards to the clone, wanna be Thaksin mercenaries, and once again rebels without a cause.

So, what for them now? They have the PTP government they fought for, the dead are paid up and forgotten, the PTP promises have floated down the pipes and are adrift somewhere of the straights of Malacca and the Constitution Court delivered a verdict.

Will they go back to their farms or will Thaksin still show them that he is in charge and thay are still pawns in the game? For some of their foul-mouthed "leaders" (depite being a "pro-democractic" organisation, they never held elections to see who would lead them.) jail time beckons. Jatuporn, Korkeaw and others are due some time behind bars. Will that be the rebels new cause?

The next thrilling episode awaits.

Excellent summary.

I agree entirely, but I still ask the question with regard to how Jatuporn is given media space when he has been shown to be nothing more than a common criminal, with no political status!

[hellodolly]

No need of confusion.

Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education.

They will soon realize that the people they follow now have no use for them other than as a weapon.

Education = problem solved no more red shirts.

Unless they are corrupt and see a chance to make a illegal baht there.

Or possibly see a chance to make a lot of money just by spouting nonsense.

Are you expecting to make a lot of money then?

Artist. Do you disagree with what dolly says that a Thai with an education and no agenda will see through the Shinwatra clans deads.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

The slightly patronising colonial phrase "a Thai with an education" is key here. The slightly illiterate phrase "Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education" is bordering on offensive.

"A Thai with an education" is more likely to come from the middle-class or rich segment of society in the first place and consequently more likely to see through the Shinawatra clan's deeds or did you mean deads?

I don't think that education makes people more rational or wise. You are just as likely to be an educated extremist as an ignorant one.

The standard of education in rural Issan is appalling, my wife was working on a construction site in Bangkok at the age of 12 and she is intellectually capable of achieving a first class degree.

In the short to medium term people will learn by experience, and its likely to be a painful experience. Look at what happened when the poor rural majority became empowered in the countries around Thailand.

In the medium to long term, smart phones will be Thailand's salvation. (I think....) and education.

"The slightly patronising colonial phrase "a Thai with an education" is key here.

The slightly illiterate phrase "Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education" is bordering on offensive."

That is what i was saying education is the key.

You would rather lie than border on offensive. That is a large part of the problem in Thailand cover it up it dosen't matter if it looks bad just make it look good.

At least a educated extremist knows what he is talking about.

An ignorant one dosen't. He just causes problems for the money in hand and promise of you will be rich in 6 months. Doe's that not tell you some thing about him when the 6 months comes and he is still in debt to the loan shark who loaned him the money for his smart phone. And still suporting the man who promised him the money.

"The standard of education in rural Issan is appalling."

And just where do you think the PT gets there armed militia from you know the ones wearing red shirts

"Look at what happened when the poor rural majority became empowered in the countries around Thailand."

Well I could be wrong but I don't think Pol Pot was the poor rural majority. But he sure turned all of Cambodia in to the poor rural majority.

Not sure if smart phones are even good. look at the cost of them. I would be willing to bet that there is quite a few of them in the 2,000 areas that have schools with no electricity and how many people had to go to the money lenders to get one. I have a stupid phone it is 6 years old and can still call and receive calls on it.

Are you confusing smart phones with those cheap tablets that all students were supposed to receive? Not that I believe they will and of the ones that do get delivered they are going to just a few of what ever passes for first grade here. And you can bet your bottom baht they are not schools in Issan.

[hellodolly]

Thansford & co:

All I hear about the red shirts is elections, as though they are the be all & end all of democracy. Now it is fairly common knowledge (if you have lived here for some time) that vote buying & intimidation does occur. No one really knows how much it affects an election result but it does have at least some effect.

What the red shirts & their sympathisers (such as you) never mention is what checks & balances should apply. Certainly what the most loud-mouthed red shirt leaders spout is to ignore or do away with those checks on the legislature. It is certainly impossible to run a democracy with a totally corrupt & biased police force.

Many of Thaksin's pronouncements when he was in power left no doubt that (a) he is no democrat, ( he can't take criticism & © he wanted (& still wants) to rule totally. We'll leave corruption out for the moment.

Are you using the words Red Shirts and current democratically elected government interchangeably?

Can't talk for him but I can for me yes they are interchangeable they both have the same goals. One will try to do it legally and if that dosen't work they will try bribery. If all else fails they call on the other one to do it with intimidation and violence.

[hellodolly]

No need of confusion.

Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education.

They will soon realize that the people they follow now have no use for them other than as a weapon.

Education = problem solved no more red shirts.

Unless they are corrupt and see a chance to make a illegal baht there.

Or possibly see a chance to make a lot of money just by spouting nonsense.

Are you expecting to make a lot of money then?

I see you don't charge you fall into the spouting nonsense category.

yes lets just get an education. like you can just get it off a shelf. Education is a big thing out here because it is expensive.

you must be rich because you are spouting nonsense Helloboy

With a education you would know that education is the key to many of Thailand's problems. And yes it cost money but not as much as your supposed government is putting in it's pocket. It will take time but first it has to be started. If your paymaster had started when he was in power Thailand would be at the beginning of a new world. But he didn't so here we are where we were when he first had a chance and chose instead to change laws so he wouldn't have to pay tax and push for a airport on unsuitable land. O what do you know his wife owned a lot of it.

No I am not rich but I am educated try it. You might find out it is OK

[tlansford]

Thansford & co:

All I hear about the red shirts is elections, as though they are the be all & end all of democracy. Now it is fairly common knowledge (if you have lived here for some time) that vote buying & intimidation does occur. No one really knows how much it affects an election result but it does have at least some effect.

What the red shirts & their sympathisers (such as you) never mention is what checks & balances should apply. Certainly what the most loud-mouthed red shirt leaders spout is to ignore or do away with those checks on the legislature. It is certainly impossible to run a democracy with a totally corrupt & biased police force.

Many of Thaksin's pronouncements when he was in power left no doubt that (a) he is no democrat, ( he can't take criticism & © he wanted (& still wants) to rule totally. We'll leave corruption out for the moment.

I don't defend Thaksin's record.

Nor do I defend military coups.

The ANFREL talked about vote buying in their 2011 report. It occurred but was not a significant factor.

I understand perfectly checks & balances. Tanks are not a check nor a balance.

Extreme corruption is a problem in any civil society. No question about that.

[Artist]

With a education you would know that education is the key to many of Thailand's problems. And yes it cost money but not as much as your supposed government is putting in it's pocket. It will take time but first it has to be started. If your paymaster had started when he was in power Thailand would be at the beginning of a new world. But he didn't so here we are where we were when he first had a chance and chose instead to change laws so he wouldn't have to pay tax and push for a airport on unsuitable land. O what do you know his wife owned a lot of it.

No I am not rich but I am educated try it. You might find out it is OK

Knowledge without understanding has its limitations hello dolly as you so amply illustrate

[Reasonableman]

With a education you would know that education is the key to many of Thailand's problems. And yes it cost money but not as much as your supposed government is putting in it's pocket. It will take time but first it has to be started. If your paymaster had started when he was in power Thailand would be at the beginning of a new world. But he didn't so here we are where we were when he first had a chance and chose instead to change laws so he wouldn't have to pay tax and push for a airport on unsuitable land. O what do you know his wife owned a lot of it.

No I am not rich but I am educated try it. You might find out it is OK

Knowledge without understanding has its limitations hello dolly as you so amply illustrate

And other oft-mouthed platitudes....

[Joeb]

I find the exchanges on this forum to be facinating, and in many cases down right stupid. How many of you have been in a small Thai village. My wife's hometown is a small, dusty bump in the road in north central Thailand. They pretty much have nothing. At election time the Dems show up in color coordinated outfits with spit shined shoes and salon haircuts. They smile and pass out business cards and look completely out of place. PTP and their predecessors show up in a black Fortuner, with a thugish looking collection of bodyguards. They give a speech about how if you vote for them Thaksin will come back and make their world a paradise on earth. Shortly afterwards the B500 notes start getting passed out. My wife's family have a very realistic attitude towards it all. They take the money, all they can get, because they say it will be the last thing they ever get from the person they voted for until the next election. For 20 years they have lived on a dirt road. Every election evary politician comes to the house and promises that if elected they will get the road paved. They still live on a dirt road. And so it goes and probably will for a long time to come.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Joeb

[Artist]

"The slightly patronising colonial phrase "a Thai with an education" is key here.

The slightly illiterate phrase "Al the red shirts have to do is get a real education" is bordering on offensive."

That is what i was saying education is the key.

You would rather lie than border on offensive. That is a large part of the problem in Thailand cover it up it dosen't matter if it looks bad just make it look good.

At least a educated extremist knows what he is talking about.

An ignorant one dosen't. He just causes problems for the money in hand and promise of you will be rich in 6 months. Doe's that not tell you some thing about him when the 6 months comes and he is still in debt to the loan shark who loaned him the money for his smart phone. And still suporting the man who promised him the money.

"The standard of education in rural Issan is appalling."

And just where do you think the PT gets there armed militia from you know the ones wearing red shirts

"Look at what happened when the poor rural majority became empowered in the countries around Thailand."

Well I could be wrong but I don't think Pol Pot was the poor rural majority. But he sure turned all of Cambodia in to the poor rural majority.

Not sure if smart phones are even good. look at the cost of them. I would be willing to bet that there is quite a few of them in the 2,000 areas that have schools with no electricity and how many people had to go to the money lenders to get one. I have a stupid phone it is 6 years old and can still call and receive calls on it.

Are you confusing smart phones with those cheap tablets that all students were supposed to receive? Not that I believe they will and of the ones that do get delivered they are going to just a few of what ever passes for first grade here. And you can bet your bottom baht they are not schools in Issan.

I am not making myself clear. Educating the "poor rural majority" won't turn them all into comfortable middle-class Thais happy with the status quo, it will simply make them a politically more effective "poor rural majority"

Pol Pot was a school teacher and all socialist revolutions have been led by the educated intelligentsia.

In a matter of a few years the people in rural Thailand went from no phones and no communications to almost universal mobile phones. So instead of travelling by bus for a day to find out how aunty was, or waiting for a letter from Hong Kong from your daughter, you could be in touch with everybody you wanted to instantly at an affordable cost (thanks somewhat to Thaksin).

That technological change was revolutionary and unbelievably quick.

We are on the brink of an even bigger change as dumb mobiles will inevitably be replaced by smart phones. Suddenly all those poor ignorant Thais you want to educate will have access to all the world's knowledge by talking to their phone and asking Google.

The role of Facebook and Twitter in the Arab Spring uprisings, with Wiki-leaks as a catalyst, has been unexpected and astounding

When everybody in Thailand has unlimited and instantaneous access to information and current affairs, the impact will be wonderful, exciting, dangerous and unknown. Its coming and within the decade. Better get ready.

Education is important but access to information is supreme

[Reasonableman]

What is supreme is the ability to analyze the quality and reliability of that information critically and independently. Access is a means to get information for use, it is not an end in itself.

[lungmi]

With a education you would know that education is the key to many of Thailand's problems. And yes it cost money but not as much as your supposed government is putting in it's pocket. It will take time but first it has to be started. If your paymaster had started when he was in power Thailand would be at the beginning of a new world. But he didn't so here we are where we were when he first had a chance and chose instead to change laws so he wouldn't have to pay tax and push for a airport on unsuitable land. O what do you know his wife owned a lot of it.

No I am not rich but I am educated try it. You might find out it is OK

Knowledge without understanding has its limitations hello dolly as you so amply illustrate

Understanding without knowledge is the illimitated way of artists? High EQ, congratulations!.

[lungmi]

What is supreme is the ability to analyze the quality and reliability of that information critically and independently. Access is a means to get information for use, it is not an end in itself.

Right, the Reds have all information (Truth today, a Morning Fard from Dubai, Pol Pot as ghost writer of the New Charta, Radio Weng-Weng and the subtitles of Thida).

We see, how they use all the information to create a free Thailand as Red Village.

[birdpooguava]

The problem with the Democrats and their elite backers is simple.

Upon realizing their political savvy was severely lacking, compared to the slick TRT machine, an evil plan was hatched deep in the recesses of the army barracks.

How dare this man empower the people! They must happily stay in the rice fields and send us their sons and daughters in return for a pittance. How dare he continue to reduce the military budget as a percentage of GDP year after year. We want our air balloons! For how else can we maintain our pervertedly privileged positions. Hence the systematic vilification of the most successful and effective PM the country has ever experienced began. This was their only chance, as they themselves were not bereft of ideas to help the masses , but in fact selfishly unwilling to grant them. So the witch hunt began. What could they pin on this man? While all embarrassingly standing squarely in front of their own amassed wealth they collective raised their fingers and pointed. LOOK, he is doing what every other Thai businessman is doing! LOOK, he is following the advice of his tax lawyers and accountants! LOOK, he is following current tax laws when selling his own company shares! LOOK, inevitably some government decisions are inadvertently affecting his massive business interests! And then they released their big weapon, like a submarine in shallow water, LOOK he is trying to bring down the monarchy and turn this blessed kingdom into a republic!

And so it began, and to this day we are still hearing the whinging, whining losers bleat on and on about the same old fictitious fantasy as the people grow more and more tired of hearing it.

There is no next episode, just tedious reruns of the old one.

Don't be ridiculous, Thaksin only spoke about helping the poor but didn't do anything. He was corrupt and he let 3000 people being killed. He did not follow the laws he made some laws specific for his purpose. Some he even reversed after his business. And for the rumor that he want to bring down the monarchy....his own son told when drunk, that he is the son from the future first president of Thailand.

HIS SON, not the democrats told that.

Check out the change in the Gini Index and overall poverty figures during his tenure. You are poorly informed.

The World economy was on it´s high when Thaksin rooled.

Many other countries with impressive growth are experiencing a widening imbalance between rich and poor, but Thaksin managed to address both issues with extremely positive results. You obviously have not looked at the relevant data.

[birdpooguava]

birdpooguava

In Canada we have what is called the Canadian Mental health association.

birdpooguava is a prime example that propaganda works. The reds use a lot of what Joseph Goebbels taught and it works...

Take a look at yourself and your buddies. You obviously haven't seriously looked into the effectiveness of Thaksin's policies on poverty rates or the wealth gap. Interesting that you claim others are 'mental' and/ or indoctrinated when you don't even know the basic facts involved. Blind faith works for religious nuts as well.

[MikeOboe57]

[...] The role of Facebook and Twitter in the Arab Spring uprisings, with Wiki-leaks as a catalyst, has been unexpected and astounding [...]

Education is important but access to information is supreme

Unexpected and astounding, indeed. These bloggers and facebook/twitter aficionados were so in demand in the western media that they even had to make one up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/13/syrian-lesbian-blogger-tom-macmaster

Even more unexpected and astounding that all these activists played absolutely no role in the recent elections. The majority of the voters preferred to listen to stale tunes instead.

Access to information is only supreme if you allow this information to affect your thinking and your points of view.

[birdpooguava]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.

What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.

Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.

Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.

Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.

The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.

Is Thaksin the man? No.

They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranks

My personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.

Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.

Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

[MAJIC]

"Things won't stop here," red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan said minutes after the verdict was announced, adding that some people had a hidden agenda for trying to stop a new charter from being written.

And pray tell us,without laughing! who has the hidden Agenda to change the Constitution to bring Thaksin back,without fear of him going to Prison????

[hellodolly]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.Is Thaksin the man? No.They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranksMy personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

Edited July 14, 2012 by hellodolly

[birdpooguava]

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

Dolly, you apparently know both my IQ and Thai immigration record. In fact, I have resided in Thailand for 13 years now, speak, read and write fluent Thai, have a highly paid (and taxed) job and have a Thai family, including a wife with an 18 year education. So please stop making unfounded accusations about other posters.

Now about your unreasoned and poorly written response.

1. Thaksin came to power after winning almost twice as many seats in parliament than his nearest rival. When Abhisit came to power his party had by 165 seats compared to PPPs 233 (+\~). Is this what you call ' the same identical process'?

2. "Although Gen Prayuth has assured that soldiers will not get involved in politics, last week's comments by Chartthaipattana leader Chumpol Silpa-archa about the role of an "irresistible power" in the formation of the present government has placed the military once more in the spotlight." Is this what you were referring to by '40 of Thaksin's former backers came over and backed Abhisit'.

3. Regarding Thaksin's conviction; "In January 2007, the Financial Institutions Development Fund complied with the Assets Examination Committee request to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife over their purchase of four 772 million baht plots of land from the FIDF in 2003. The charge was based on alleged violation of Section 100 of the National Counter Corruption Act, which specifies that government officials and their spouses are prohibited from entering into or having interests in contracts made with state agencies under their authorisation. However, Section 4 of the Act indicates that persons committing malfeasance must be direct supervisors of the damaged party - in this case, the FIDF. At the time, Bank of Thailand Governor Pridiyathorn Devakula directly supervised the FIDF, not Thaksin. Section 29 of the Bank of Thailand Act of 1942 stated that the Prime Minister did not have jurisdiction to oversee the FIDF, because those managing the fund had sole authority for policies, control, oversight and regulations governing the agency. Pridiyathorn's testimony to the court occurred in secret - Thaksin's legal team was not allowed in the room. The FIDF later noted that the land was sold to the Shinawatras at a price greater than its appraised value. The case went to the Supreme Court 10 July 2007." (Wikipedia/ The Nation/ BBC)

Please try and respond with reason, not biased ranting.

Edited July 14, 2012 by birdpooguava

[tlansford]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.Is Thaksin the man? No.They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranksMy personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

"But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route."

Actually, he accurately accuses Abhisit of coming to power through a dishonest route. This is well documented for all to see.

Defending Thaksin is a different issue. Thaksin doesn't need defending. His record is public as well. There is plenty of abuse in his history, but the point where many get lampooned with "Thaksin supporter" is when they acknowledge that his every act was not necessarily "evil". His government did have policies which were popular and effective as well. Not everyone agrees on each and every policy, but most people, especially Thais, can find at least one or two things that they liked about the Thaksin government. Most can also find *at least* one or two things that they didn't like about the Thaksin government.

[Moruya]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.

What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.

Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.

Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.

Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.

The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.

Is Thaksin the man? No.

They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranks

My personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.

Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.

Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

So which of Thaksin's alleged sins do you think he did not commit?

[ThaiOats]

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

Dolly, you apparently know both my IQ and Thai immigration record. In fact, I have resided in Thailand for 13 years now, speak, read and write fluent Thai, have a highly paid (and taxed) job and have a Thai family, including a wife with an 18 year education. So please stop making unfounded accusations about other posters.

Now about your unreasoned and poorly written response.

1. Thaksin came to power after winning almost twice as many seats in parliament than his nearest rival. When Abhisit came to power his party had by 165 seats compared to PPPs 233 (+\~). Is this what you call ' the same identical process'?

2. "Although Gen Prayuth has assured that soldiers will not get involved in politics, last week's comments by Chartthaipattana leader Chumpol Silpa-archa about the role of an "irresistible power" in the formation of the present government has placed the military once more in the spotlight." Is this what you were referring to by '40 of Thaksin's former backers came over and backed Abhisit'.

3. Regarding Thaksin's conviction; "In January 2007, the Financial Institutions Development Fund complied with the Assets Examination Committee request to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife over their purchase of four 772 million baht plots of land from the FIDF in 2003. The charge was based on alleged violation of Section 100 of the National Counter Corruption Act, which specifies that government officials and their spouses are prohibited from entering into or having interests in contracts made with state agencies under their authorisation. However, Section 4 of the Act indicates that persons committing malfeasance must be direct supervisors of the damaged party - in this case, the FIDF. At the time, Bank of Thailand Governor Pridiyathorn Devakula directly supervised the FIDF, not Thaksin. Section 29 of the Bank of Thailand Act of 1942 stated that the Prime Minister did not have jurisdiction to oversee the FIDF, because those managing the fund had sole authority for policies, control, oversight and regulations governing the agency. Pridiyathorn's testimony to the court occurred in secret - Thaksin's legal team was not allowed in the room. The FIDF later noted that the land was sold to the Shinawatras at a price greater than its appraised value. The case went to the Supreme Court 10 July 2007." (Wikipedia/ The Nation/ BBC)

Please try and respond with reason, not biased ranting.

Ok, since you're fluent in Thai, let's do this. I provide a link to a Democrat's rally or show no longer than an hour and you provide a link to a Red-shirt show or rally. We'll then talk about at least three or more points made in the video clip and discuss it openly for others to comment. This way, I can see understand what's important to you and you can see understand what's important to me. I believe it's a method of being open minded and discussing things in a fair manner. Here's a start:

This is Abhisit at Chon Buri. He talks about Red Shirt's methods, what it means to be the opposition, double standards and more. Please tell me what you agree or disagree about the points he made and if they are facts or just more lies. I'm willing to sit through a video clip of Red Shirt rallies and although I've seen a lot already, I'm sure there are some intelligible ones out there that you can point me to.

Oh and Tlansford, if you're reading this, Abhisit in the video talks about the democratic process of being the opposition and the Red Shirts behavior. Please comment if he's right or wrong about how things are supposed to go in a Democracy. It's really important you understand this because it seems you're the champion of Democracy.

Edited July 15, 2012 by ThaiOats

[GentlemanJim]

will folks stop using wiki as a source of 'reliable' information when it is used to justify actions or accounts of (in this case) politicians who have a mixed audience of those that adore them and those that despise them. The fact is that Wiki is written by the general population, and anybody can log in to wiki and enter changes to information. Certain types of information need to be treated with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to be the trusted source of information for the uneducated and those that cannot be bothered to look elsewhere.

[nurofiend]

will folks stop using wiki as a source of 'reliable' information when it is used to justify actions or accounts of (in this case) politicians who have a mixed audience of those that adore them and those that despise them. The fact is that Wiki is written by the general population, and anybody can log in to wiki and enter changes to information. Certain types of information need to be treated with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to be the trusted source of information for the uneducated and those that cannot be bothered to look elsewhere.

citation needed.

[Skywalker69]

"Things won't stop here," red-shirt leader Jatuporn Promphan said minutes after the verdict was announced, adding that some people had a hidden agenda for trying to stop a new charter from being written.

And pray tell us,without laughing! who has the hidden Agenda to change the Constitution to bring Thaksin back,without fear of him going to Prison????

[Skywalker69]

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

Dolly, you apparently know both my IQ and Thai immigration record. In fact, I have resided in Thailand for 13 years now, speak, read and write fluent Thai, have a highly paid (and taxed) job and have a Thai family, including a wife with an 18 year education. So please stop making unfounded accusations about other posters.

Now about your unreasoned and poorly written response.

1. Thaksin came to power after winning almost twice as many seats in parliament than his nearest rival. When Abhisit came to power his party had by 165 seats compared to PPPs 233 (+\~). Is this what you call ' the same identical process'?

2. "Although Gen Prayuth has assured that soldiers will not get involved in politics, last week's comments by Chartthaipattana leader Chumpol Silpa-archa about the role of an "irresistible power" in the formation of the present government has placed the military once more in the spotlight." Is this what you were referring to by '40 of Thaksin's former backers came over and backed Abhisit'.

3. Regarding Thaksin's conviction; "In January 2007, the Financial Institutions Development Fund complied with the Assets Examination Committee request to file a charge against Thaksin and his wife over their purchase of four 772 million baht plots of land from the FIDF in 2003. The charge was based on alleged violation of Section 100 of the National Counter Corruption Act, which specifies that government officials and their spouses are prohibited from entering into or having interests in contracts made with state agencies under their authorisation. However, Section 4 of the Act indicates that persons committing malfeasance must be direct supervisors of the damaged party - in this case, the FIDF. At the time, Bank of Thailand Governor Pridiyathorn Devakula directly supervised the FIDF, not Thaksin. Section 29 of the Bank of Thailand Act of 1942 stated that the Prime Minister did not have jurisdiction to oversee the FIDF, because those managing the fund had sole authority for policies, control, oversight and regulations governing the agency. Pridiyathorn's testimony to the court occurred in secret - Thaksin's legal team was not allowed in the room. The FIDF later noted that the land was sold to the Shinawatras at a price greater than its appraised value. The case went to the Supreme Court 10 July 2007." (Wikipedia/ The Nation/ BBC)

Please try and respond with reason, not biased ranting.

Ok, since you're fluent in Thai, let's do this. I provide a link to a Democrat's rally or show no longer than an hour and you provide a link to a Red-shirt show or rally. We'll then talk about at least three or more points made in the video clip and discuss it openly for others to comment. This way, I can see understand what's important to you and you can see understand what's important to me. I believe it's a method of being open minded and discussing things in a fair manner. Here's a start:

This is Abhisit at Chon Buri. He talks about Red Shirt's methods, what it means to be the opposition, double standards and more. Please tell me what you agree or disagree about the points he made and if they are facts or just more lies. I'm willing to sit through a video clip of Red Shirt rallies and although I've seen a lot already, I'm sure there are some intelligible ones out there that you can point me to.

Oh and Tlansford, if you're reading this, Abhisit in the video talks about the democratic process of being the opposition and the Red Shirts behavior. Please comment if he's right or wrong about how things are supposed to go in a Democracy. It's really important you understand this because it seems you're the champion of Democracy.

[Skywalker69]

Allow me to offer a more adult response to your post.What the poor and working class of this country need is education, opportunity and investment.Education is a joke unless you have the money to put your kids in a private school.Opportunities are far too few. There are some factories for sure but whilst it's an improvement it's a small one.Investment again is poor. 2000 schools without electricity is a crime.The question is who will improve the lot of the poor and working class? The Dems were marginally better than the PTP. The PTP has an agenda that really does not much apart from waste money.Is Thaksin the man? No.They need an honest hero and he doesnt exist in the current ranksMy personal belief is that the sheep need the dogs to keep the wolves at bay.

Thank you for your response. Certainly an improvement on your initial childish rant, which I felt compelled to answer to in kind.Yes, I agree with most of your points. But I disagree to your answer to your own question. Abhisit is no honest hero. His significant part in the perversion of justice and democracy rules him out. Unfortunately for AV, the army and the other players in their shady circle, their cunning plan was uncovered and left exposed for all to see. Too inept and cowardly to stand up against his opponent in the ring, he took a dishonest route to power. This cannot be played down.Thaksin, although certainly no saint, was following the well established rules of Thai politics and business. Not rules that he made, but ones that he, like a good footballer, played close to the limits. It seems that you, like many others, actually believe all of the propaganda used against him. What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified.

bird pooYou say and I quote

"What you must realize is that his opponents, as with any politicians, do not speak the truth and that he has largely been falsely vilified."

But you defend every thing Thaksin did and does he is a politician yet you believe him. You falsely accuse Abhist of coming to power by a dishonest route.

Are you slow or some thing he came to power through the same identical process Thaksin did.

The reality is he is a reasonably honest politician and it is the honesty you can't handle. Continue to crawl in the mud with your red shirt friends and you will continue to dislike honest people and make up stories about them.Don't waste your time or my time with your crying over the fact Thailand had a honest PM. And don't waste my time or your time about what happened when he was the PM. You were probably not here and did not know what happened. 40 of Thaksins formeer backers came over and backed Abhist. Each and every one of the 40 had learned from Thaksin how to steal money from the Government. In fact is was your money and my money they were stealing. Just because they backed a honest politician does not mean they were. Or some of the ones he had with him.

In closing I would like to say I personally don't care for the man but being a honest man with nothing to gain by lying I have to admit he is the best man for the job. My thai wife with a very limited education 4 years I think would be the best woman for the job if there was a choice between the two.You want to talk about honesty what about Thaksin he was tried and convicted of a crime. He says it was politically motivated and maybe it was. So what he was still guilty. Would a honest man run from the punishment he deserves. If he thought he was so innocent why was he here in Chiang Mai making 99 calls to temples in three days to earn merit before the verdict came down. He might have earned merit 2 years was a gift.

Good post,hallodolly.Thanks

[MikeOboe57]

will folks stop using wiki as a source of 'reliable' information when it is used to justify actions or accounts of (in this case) politicians who have a mixed audience of those that adore them and those that despise them. The fact is that Wiki is written by the general population, and anybody can log in to wiki and enter changes to information. Certain types of information need to be treated with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to be the trusted source of information for the uneducated and those that cannot be bothered to look elsewhere.

Good point. Robert Amsterdam, for example, wrote his own wiki biography. Needless to say he came off as a hero.

[Moruya]

will folks stop using wiki as a source of 'reliable' information when it is used to justify actions or accounts of (in this case) politicians who have a mixed audience of those that adore them and those that despise them. The fact is that Wiki is written by the general population, and anybody can log in to wiki and enter changes to information. Certain types of information need to be treated with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to be the trusted source of information for the uneducated and those that cannot be bothered to look elsewhere.

Good point. Robert Amsterdam, for example, wrote his own wiki biography. Needless to say he came off as a hero.

Didn't he also award himself his legal qualification?

[birdpooguava]

will folks stop using wiki as a source of 'reliable' information when it is used to justify actions or accounts of (in this case) politicians who have a mixed audience of those that adore them and those that despise them. The fact is that Wiki is written by the general population, and anybody can log in to wiki and enter changes to information. Certain types of information need to be treated with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to be the trusted source of information for the uneducated and those that cannot be bothered to look elsewhere.

Wikipedia states that the capital of Thailand is Bangkok and the world is not flat.

My quotes from Wikipedia were quotes from The Nation and the BBC

Could you as such an educated member please dispute the quote on its content and not it's source?