Remembering A German Gay Civil Rights Pioneer: Karl Ulrichs

[LeCharivari]

Again, Harvey Milk was no saint. That was part of his charm.

Not to his bf's/partners. All four of them committed suicide, either when with him or soon after breaking up with him.

[Jingthing]

Again, Harvey Milk was no saint. That was part of his charm.

Not to his bf's/partners. All four of them committed suicide, either when with him or soon after breaking up with him.

So he's kind of like a black widow. Sounds like a great premise for a new movie! Maybe portray Harvey as a Jewish gay vampire? Now that spells BOX OFFICE. Why not contact Rob Epstein? Sorry, Charlie, in America, Harvey's important place in history is set, warts and all. BTW, it sounds like Harvey was attracted to unstable people! I Again, part of his charm in the edgy San Francisco of that era. (Did I mention I was there? ) Edited August 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

I wonder if we have revealed here on this Thai forum a man who is the most obsessed person on the planet about how bad Harvey Milk was.

JT, I really couldn't care less about HM et al per se.

What annoys me about you continually lauding him to the skies isn't "how bad" he was but your insisting that "the gay people today in countries that now have a good level of equality most definitely owe a debt of gratitude" to HM et al when WE OWE THEM NOTHING as they have DONE NOTHING for gay rights outside the US (the reverse in many cases), and that he deserves to be "respected" when his own actions show that he had NO respect for anyone else.

If "Harvey Milk was as close as we have gotten to Martin Luther King. ... bottom line, like him or not, Harvey Milk is IT" then that explains a lot and if he's the best you've got then you've got my sympathy. The only thing they have in common is that they were both shot dead. HM is virtually unknown outside the USA, except possibly as one of the "Twinkie" victims, and other Americans, such as Greg Louganis, have earnt far more respect globally as gay rights campaigners because they actually achieved something with their lives.

HM achieved next to nothing when he was alive beyond taking four attempts to get elected in local politics, finally getting elected on the "gay" ticket in a predominantly gay zone. He wasn't even the first openly gay elected politician in the US - a lesbian had been elected to the House of Representatives two years before him, and an openly gay Senator was also re-elected two year before.

All he "achieved" was as a result of the hype over his being shot, even though it had nothing to do with his being gay. And for that you think we should all pay him respect and we owe him a debt of gratitude?? That may work in the US (and I am quite prepared to believe that it does) but elsewhere we need rather more.

[Jingthing]

This lesbian congresswoman. I'm interested. Was she OUT? This supposedly out senator? NAME PLEASE. This is all news to me. You are such the scholar on American matters; quite impressive. Obviously there have been gay politicians all through American history. The difference is being OUT.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

News to you? I'm not surprised.

Kathy Kozachenko was the first openly gay/lesbian candidate to run successfully for political office in the US, in Michigan in 1974.

Her predecessor, Nancy Wechsler, had also been a lesbian but she only "came out" when she was in office.

Elaine Noble was openly lesbian and involved in LGBT rights in Boston before she was elected to the Massachusetts House of Representatives in 1974 and again in 1976. During her campaign the windows of her house were shot in several times, sometimes while she was in the house, and her car was set on fire. The second time she stood for election she won by nearly 90% of the vote.

Allan Spear was elected to the Minnesota Senate in 1972 and he came out publicly before he stood for re-election in 1974. He was President of the Minnesota Senate for 8 years.

You can't really held be responsible for the failings of your educational system as popular American "history" tends to be .... how shall I put it .... selective in who it gives credit to and who is, at best a "footnote"*.

The best (or worst) example I know of is probably that of 15 year-old school-girl Claudette Colvin who was arrested for refusing to give up her seat in the bus to a white passenger in Montgomery, Alabama, on March 2 1955. She was the key witness in the Alabama and then US Supreme Court case (Browder vs Gayle) which affirmed in 1956 that bus segregation was illegal under the 14th Amendment.

Irene Morgan preceded Claudette Colvin in a similar Supreme Court case following her arrest on a bus in Virginia by eleven years, in 1944.

Sarah Keys was arrested in similar circumstances in North Carolina in 1952, and a series of court cases followed for three years until a Supreme Court and Interstate Commerce Commission ruling was finally made in her favour in November 1955.

Rosa Parks didn't refuse to give up her seat using the same bus company and getting on at the same bus-stop as Claudette Colvin until nine months after her, on 1 December, a week after the Sarah Keys ruling was announced and she was never involved in any of the court cases, but she was the one who was named one of Time magazine's most important 100 people of the 20th Century, awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and Congressional Gold Medal.

No disrespect to Rosa Parks, but I believe credit should be given where its due - and although Irene Morgan was awarded the Presidential Citizens Medal by Bill Clinton in 2001, who's heard of Claudette Colvin or Sarah Keys? Or, apparently, Elaine Noble or Allen Spear?

* http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/books/26colvin.html?_r=2&hp

Edited August 8, 2012 by LeCharivari

[Jingthing]

You previously posted completely MISLEADING information!

House of representatives to an American means the United States CONGRESS.

Senator means the United States SENATE.

Now you tell us about some STATE congressmen and STATE senators.

If you want to understand American politics, use the CORRECT lingo, OK?

If you mean STATE senator, you say STATE senator.

Otherwise, you mislead, as you did before.

In any case the thing about Harvey wasn't just the first thing, it was that he ran as a gay rights activists and he held office as a gay rights activist. Again I was there. He talked about it all the time. That was unprecedented. Of course he represented his entire constituency but his thing was mostly about the gay civil rights movement revolution. It was indeed historic. I know you would have found it obnoxious, but in those times it made perfect gay revolutionary sense. Those other names, sorry, not really so much impact.

Can I ask you to stop your anti-American trip for awhile? It is very insulting.

The other thing you fail to grasp in your obsessive literal pedantry is that what civil rights activists REPRESENT in the popular imagination does matter. Whether your trash talk about Rosa Parks is true or not, the fact remains it doesn't really matter. We remember Rosa Parks for what she REPRESENTED. Black civil rights CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE. She REPRESENTS that.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

Those other names, sorry, not really so much impact.

That was the point.

To you, whether something is "true or not ... doesn't really matter" and all that matters to you is what is "represented" by "popular imagination". That's a little sad.

[Jingthing]

Those other names, sorry, not really so much impact.

That was the point.

To you, whether something is "true or not ... doesn't really matter" and all that matters to you is what is "represented" by "popular imagination". That's a little sad.

Feeling sad? Have a cocktail.

[Osprey]

Well debated LeCharivari and I find myself agreeing totally with your arguments. The problem with Jingthing is when he is losing the debate he resorts to argumentum ad hominium as exemplified by his accusation of you being anti American. I am only surprised you were allowed to get so far without being censured.

[Jingthing]

Well debated LeCharivari and I find myself agreeing totally with your arguments. The problem with Jingthing is when he is losing the debate he resorts to argumentum ad hominium as exemplified by his accusation of you being anti American. I am only surprised you were allowed to get so far without being censured.

Good luck in the vast majority of nations having any chance of winning basic civil rights for gay people without active gay activists. Not talking about the UK. Talking about the entire world. Yes there is a GLOBAL movement for gay civil rights, and the people on the front lines are gay activists. Of course they don't have to be gay and some are in positions of political power. I consider President Obama a gay activist now.

[Osprey]

But Obama is gay ? Google it .. He was involved with a Pakastani and there are some very strange accusations of a choir boy lover being murdered shortly before he became POTUS. Obumer is a Kenyan Muslim and is possibly the greatest closet gay in history. Your last statement just negates everything you have protested about in all you ramblings.

[Jingthing]

But Obama is gay ? Google it .. He was involved with a Pakastani and there are some very strange accusations of a choir boy lover being murdered shortly before he became POTUS. Obumer is a Kenyan Muslim and is possibly the greatest closet gay in history. Your last statement just negates everything you have protested about in all you ramblings.

Please the last thing we need on the gay forum are birther conspiracy theories.

[tombkk]

Please don't drag this topic down to cheap conspiracy theories. I'd hate to close it, even though it has become slightly (?) off-topic.

For the record, it has been established that President Obama is neither gay nor a a Muslim.

And if he were either, it wouldn't matter; but that's my opinion.

[Osprey]

You see censured when Jingthing loses the argument. How I love love our central planners from the US.

[endure]

Do we really need to drag current US politics into the gay forum?

Edited August 11, 2012 by endure