Culture Clash

[mark45y]

So what everyone is saying is that they let that sector of society that is "most offended" by something, what clothes you wear or don't wear etc, be the moral guiding light... this is such a dangerous path to follow!!

Freedom and Liberty are more important values than the possibility of offendiong someones sensibilities because they too have followed this rigid cultural passing on of morals. Modern Islam and Victorianism both did this to a very great degree, and neither should be tolerated.

Get your kit off wherever and whenever.. this may be your last chance!!

I am sure this has been said before but it is too long a thread for me to read the whole thing. Freedom and liberty and wondering how many people are offended? Every Thai person who sees is offended. Nudity is tolerated and encouraged in my home but that is my home. Your freedom and liberty does nothing to change behavior and only reinforces the stereotype of Farang Keenok. Do you really want Thai people to think you are an idiot. Although on a refreshing note I thought ugly American was just an American thing. It is nice to see that it also applies to culturally uneducated Brits.

[ourmanflint]

It is possible that with tunnel vision it is difficult to see the bigger picture...

Baaah!!Baaah!!

Decided to add this after reading another post by your goodself mark45y..

There is a higher moral ground here and I am taking it! It is not ignorance that guides my replies, but a very real concern that kowtowing to anyone on cultural differences without challenging them is weak in the extreme. I am not advocating nudity or partial nudity, what I am advocating is the freedom of choice to behave as you see fit, in let's face it an area( tourist beach) that is hardly the same as downtown Bangkok.

What really makes my blood boil is someone who with as much education as you have, resorts to such broad statements saying " all thais are offended by topless girls" ( paraphrasing here!) what a completely stupid statement. Even I know that there are many different values in any society and not all those in a society are offended to the same extent by the same things. On a personal note I would not want to offend anyone, by my behaviour or anyones, but like I said larger issues are at stake here, I am offended by many things by many different cultures, Thai included, that does not mean I expect them to completely adjust to my set of values either, in fact I would re3spect them more if they stood up for them!!

Edited March 30, 2006 by ourmanflint

[seonai]

Mark45y - good on you! Totally agree. The selfish attitude that thinks it can do what it wants wherever is inadequate and superficial.

[mark45y]

It is possible that with tunnel vision it is difficult to see the bigger picture...

Baaah!!Baaah!!

Decided to add this after reading another post by your goodself mark45y..

There is a higher moral ground here and I am taking it! It is not ignorance that guides my replies, but a very real concern that kowtowing to anyone on cultural differences without challenging them is weak in the extreme. I am not advocating nudity or partial nudity, what I am advocating is the freedom of choice to behave as you see fit, in let's face it an area( tourist beach) that is hardly the same as downtown Bangkok.

What really makes my blood boil is someone who with as much education as you have, resorts to such broad statements saying " all thais are offended by topless girls" ( paraphrasing here!) what a completely stupid statement. Even I know that there are many different values in any society and not all those in a society are offended to the same extent by the same things. On a personal note I would not want to offend anyone, by my behaviour or anyones, but like I said larger issues are at stake here, I am offended by many things by many different cultures, Thai included, that does not mean I expect them to completely adjust to my set of values either, in fact I would re3spect them more if they stood up for them!!

I know enough Thais to be able to say with certainty that all Thais are offended. I do not doubt this statement in the least nor do I think anyone who has lived in Thailand for any length of time would question this statement.

You just have no significant level of experience to understand Thai culture.

It makes no difference if it is a tourist beach or a Thai beach.

By being nud_e your are offensive.

Further, Farang women going braless are offensive.

Further, they don’t let men in temples wearing shorts.

Hey, wake up!

This is not a freedom issue. It is not a liberty issue. It is a cultural issue.

Hookers are OK. Short skirts are OK. Nudity is OK on stage as long as the cops are not in the club.

Public nudity is not OK.

Backpacker chicks not wearing bras are not OK. Is this news to you?

Edited March 30, 2006 by mark45y

[kat]

I have to agree with Mark45y here. Not only does he need to personally ask the opinion of many Thais, but simply understand the fundamental, core values of the culture. Public nudity and even public, braless breasts are a cultural taboo for Thais.

Having to verify obvious, self-evident truths to people who obviously do not understand what they are here is very tiring.

Edited March 30, 2006 by kat

[robitusson]

This is not a freedom issue. It is not a liberty issue. It is a cultural issue.

Exactly. Also we don't have the "freedom" to punch someone if we don't like what they're saying. We don't have the "freedom" to just take something if we want it. These are called laws.

[the_heart_thief]

Hi Ladies,

My girlfriend, Liz, and I are due to arrive in Koh Samui for a couple of weeks soon(we are staying on Lamai).

Liz is concerned about attitudes to topless sunbathing in Thailand and, in order to put her mind at rest, I thought I'd come on this forum to ask whether any of you have had any negative experiences relating to it (other than sunburn!). Is it accepted or would you advise against it ?

Many thanks.

E.

I'd say go for it!

[seonai]

The Heart Thief's avitar says it all about this topic - it is just NOT ON to show your body parts here in Thailand. Finito. The end. Enough. Who needs to discuss this any more?????????

This is Thailand. Asia. Don't do it.

I bet the bloo dy OP is sick that he even asked this question!!!!!

[The Dude]

The main thing to realize is that no matter what is said on this forum, topless sunbathing is rampant on Patong Beach in Phuket. The culprits are not from UK or USA but rather are non native English speaking Europeans. Somehow I am sure they dont think anything of it, they just go for it. I set up a shovel stand down on that very beach cause I dig it and handed out shovels to all comers cause everybody was digging it

[mark45y]

The main thing to realize is that no matter what is said on this forum, topless sunbathing is rampant on Patong Beach in Phuket. The culprits are not from UK or USA but rather are non native English speaking Europeans. Somehow I am sure they dont think anything of it, they just go for it. I set up a shovel stand down on that very beach cause I dig it and handed out shovels to all comers cause everybody was digging it

Dear Dude,

I don’t think that is the main thing to realize. I think the main thing to realize is there are offensive people and people that are not offensive. This is not Kansas or the Ukraine. There are educated travelers and ex pats and there are complete idiots of all nationalities. It is unfortunate we are all judged by a few impolite, disingenuous people who have not taken the time or effort to understand the place where we live. Have you ever seen the pictures of Rod Stewart in a speedo bathing suit? No, he doesn’t get a shovel.

[Howe A Dee]

Many of the posts here discouraging toplessness are so filled with contradictions you have to wonder whose sensibilities they are trying to protect.

It's not asking much for people to cover up a bit in order to show a bit of respect towards the culture of the country they are temporarily visiting. Where's the contradiction? They're not being asked to wear head-scarves or being threatened with stoning if they don't do it. It's precisely because the Thais would say nothing when someone behaves immodestly and embarasses them, that people should show their own initiative and show a bit of restraint.

First off as a newbie let me say i've been reading this board for a couple years and I have gotten some great info about places and things but when it comes to the cultural interaction stuff, i have found the contributions much less helpful.

So if someone wants to cover up to show some respect fine, i'm just not convinced not covering up is dis-respectful. I don't see how someone just laying there or doing something as mundane as taking a swim can offend anyone. Bad breath? A wife being beaten by her husband? That's offensive! A naked boob or a thonged ass......just don't get it.

Though it may not be a contradiction i think it is disingenuous to express ones own discomfort and modesty under the mask of thai culture. If you are offended by toplessness or are worried it will reflect badly on YOU then say so, don't hide behind "it's not thai". I think it's fascinating the number of posts that read, to paraphrase "Thais are too shy to tell a farang when they are embarrassed, so let this farang explain." If Thais are so inscrutably shy how can anyone be sure of anything. And how convenient that what is acceptable to Thais just happens to fit with their own personal comfort zone. "I wear a bikini and it is a fine compromise." Really? How nice for you. but tell me, if a Thai were offended by your bikini would they tell you?

Perhaps not surprisingly I have found Thais perfectly capable of expressing outrage, and if so offended will let all but the most obtuse know about it. Topless on the beach? If it is a problem for Thais wouldn't they just be ban it?

Braless is offensive to Thais? Sorry that is just plain bullshit.

A thai man who thinks bare boobs are ugly? There must be one, but i find it more likely this is an excellent example of the uncanny ablility of thais to tell you exactly what you want to hear. and i dare say when it comes to toplessness many, maybe half of all thais, are delighted by the practice.

Edited April 1, 2006 by Howe A Dee

[mark45y]

Many of the posts here discouraging toplessness are so filled with contradictions you have to wonder whose sensibilities they are trying to protect.

It's not asking much for people to cover up a bit in order to show a bit of respect towards the culture of the country they are temporarily visiting. Where's the contradiction? They're not being asked to wear head-scarves or being threatened with stoning if they don't do it. It's precisely because the Thais would say nothing when someone behaves immodestly and embarasses them, that people should show their own initiative and show a bit of restraint.

First off as a newbie let me say i've been reading this board for a couple years and I have gotten some great info about places and things but when it comes to the cultural interaction stuff, i have found the contributions much less helpful.

So if someone wants to cover up to show some respect fine, i'm just not convinced not covering up is dis-respectful. I don't see how someone just laying there or doing something as mundane as taking a swim can offend anyone. Bad breath? A wife being beaten by her husband? That's offensive! A naked boob or a thonged ass......just don't get it.

Though it may not be a contradiction i think it is disingenuous to express ones own discomfort and modesty under the mask of thai culture. If you are offended by toplessness or are worried it will reflect badly on YOU then say so, don't hide behind "it's not thai". I think it's fascinating the number of posts that read, to paraphrase "Thais are too shy to tell a farang when they are embarrassed, so let this farang explain." If Thais are so inscrutably shy how can anyone be sure of anything. And how convenient that what is acceptable to Thais just happens to fit with their own personal comfort zone. "I wear a bikini and it is a fine compromise." Really? How nice for you. but tell me, if a Thai were offended by your bikini would they tell you?

Perhaps not surprisingly I have found Thais perfectly capable of expressing outrage, and if so offended will let all but the most obtuse know about it. Topless on the beach? If it is a problem for Thais wouldn't they just be ban it?

Braless is offensive to Thais? Sorry that is just plain bullshit.

A thai man who thinks bare boobs are ugly? There must be one, but i find it more likely this is an excellent example of the uncanny ablility of thais to tell you exactly what you want to hear. and i dare say when it comes to toplessness many, maybe half of all thais, are delighted by the practice.

I lived in a nudist colony in the United States. I certainly do not find nudity offensive. I don’t really know how to respond to people who are completely unaware of Thai culture. Thai’s don’t go braless. They find it very offensive. There is no real debate on this issue from anyone who lives in Thailand. Nudity is even more offensive. 99% of Thais wear shirts and shorts over bathing suits when they swim. Forgive me but you are the perfect example of why Thais use the expression Farang Keenok.

[Howe A Dee]

I lived in a nudist colony in the United States. I certainly do not find nudity offensive. I don’t really know how to respond to people who are completely unaware of Thai culture. Thai’s don’t go braless. They find it very offensive. There is no real debate on this issue from anyone who lives in Thailand. Nudity is even more offensive. 99% of Thais wear shirts and shorts over bathing suits when they swim. Forgive me but you are the perfect example of why Thais use the expression Farang Keenok.

Thais don't go braless? You must live in a different part of Thailand than me.

If imitation is the only way to show respect shouldn't we all be wearing our street clothes to the beach?

[Boo]

There is an old lady who lives behind the temple at KS road, she sits daily braless & topless on a small sala table & chews beetlenut, she is thai & is in a tourist orientated area. I get offended by her when I see her, not for the toplessness but just because she has old & saggy tits & they look ugly. Women in my husbands town frequently go braless. I dislike the "all thai people" argument just as I dislike the "all western" arguments that comes out. Some thai women DO go braless, some thai women DO wear a bikini on the beach & some thai people ARE offended by it but some AREN'T.

[mark45y]

thinking

Edited April 1, 2006 by mark45y

[mark45y]

There is an old lady who lives behind the temple at KS road, she sits daily braless & topless on a small sala table & chews beetlenut, she is thai & is in a tourist orientated area. I get offended by her when I see her, not for the toplessness but just because she has old & saggy tits & they look ugly. Women in my husbands town frequently go braless. I dislike the "all thai people" argument just as I dislike the "all western" arguments that comes out. Some thai women DO go braless, some thai women DO wear a bikini on the beach & some thai people ARE offended by it but some AREN'T.

Old women go braless everywhere and toothless. That is one of the advantages of being old. It is not lost on most people only the young and foolish who try to equate to society in general.

A bikini at a beach resort is a far different thing than an average Thai at a lake or river and that is the majority of Thailand.

I take my Thai significant other to a Farang hotel with a pool and she wears a bikini.

She would never do that at a Thai venue.

You are talking about exceptions and I am talking about the majority of Thai people.

Why do you think us Farangs have such a bad reputation among Thai people? Why do you think Western people in general have such a bad reputation in Asia and the Middle East? They don’t want your culture. They don’t want your movies. They don’t want your bikinis or your Christian religion.

And they will blow up another disco in Indonesia this week to reinforce that view.

Leave your culture where you found it. Try and not change what you find here. If you enjoy it stay if not go home.

[kat]

There is an old lady who lives behind the temple at KS road, she sits daily braless & topless on a small sala table & chews beetlenut, she is thai & is in a tourist orientated area. I get offended by her when I see her, not for the toplessness but just because she has old & saggy tits & they look ugly. Women in my husbands town frequently go braless. I dislike the "all thai people" argument just as I dislike the "all western" arguments that comes out. Some thai women DO go braless, some thai women DO wear a bikini on the beach & some thai people ARE offended by it but some AREN'T.

Well, there are contradictions in every society. Old ladies are exempt from covering up, because it is not viewed as a modesty issue anymore - i.e. they will not incite public disorder or indecent behavior.

As for women in the towns - I think it is a case of being permissible because they are in their hometowns. But I agree, that is a contradiction.

In terms of "all Western this or that" in comparison to "all Thais" etc., we are discussing dominant culture. There is a great deal more emphasis on group conformity in Asia and Thailand than in the West. Therefore, it is apt to discuss social and moral taboos as Thai and Western, especially when Asian societies are less tolerant of the rights of individuals than Western societies.

[mark45y]

There is an old lady who lives behind the temple at KS road, she sits daily braless & topless on a small sala table & chews beetlenut, she is thai & is in a tourist orientated area. I get offended by her when I see her, not for the toplessness but just because she has old & saggy tits & they look ugly. Women in my husbands town frequently go braless. I dislike the "all thai people" argument just as I dislike the "all western" arguments that comes out. Some thai women DO go braless, some thai women DO wear a bikini on the beach & some thai people ARE offended by it but some AREN'T.

Old women go braless everywhere and toothless. That is one of the advantages of being old. Most people with a heart and soul recognize that old women have been through a lot in life and deserve a time to go topless or braless. They have raised kids and worked their asses off and there is a time when chewing beetle nut and just relaxing is OK. I guess this is lost on young people consumed by appearances or Madonna like bodies with little sense of humanity or wisdom. I find your comments rude and disrespectful to women in general and older women and Thai women specifically.

I also find it meaningless to compare a very old woman to a young woman which is obviously what this thread is about.

Edited April 1, 2006 by mark45y

[Boo]

Old women go braless everywhere and toothless. That is one of the advantages of being old. It is not lost on most people only the young and foolish who try to equate to society in general.

I think I also said topless, as in no top on. Thats nothing about being old. I know of no old ladies in the UK who go topless in the street. Nothing to do with being young or foolish either but please, try to keep the patronising tone to a minimum.

You said no thai people went topless, I gave you an example. Go to the KS muay thai ring & take a look yourself. You said no thai women went braless, I gave you examples. Hardly exceptions.

When you state that you know enough thai people to say that "ALL" Thai people this & that then be ready for examples to disagree. If you say the thai people you know, it gives more credability to your posts. You didn't specify the majority, you spoke for the whole nation. I gave you a few examples to show you are wrong. FYI, I am not a christian & every thai person I know loves western movies, drive western cars, wear western clothes, use western phones & integrate parts of a western lifestyle into their day.

My husband & I watched a travel programme once with some american guy going on about living simply like thai people & staying in a cell at a buddhist retreat. My husband laughed his ass off at this stupid man who thought he could talk with authority on Thai people, he said, what, don't thai people want to drive cars, don't thai people want to live in a nice safe house, don't thai people want money & to educate their children well? It is funny, imagine if a thai person wrote on here that all americans were greedy & thick as they knew enough americans to speak for all? How offensive.

Leave your culture where you found it. Try and not change what you find here. If you enjoy it stay if not go home.

Cultures change. Thai people will lead that change not you or me or any farang. They have accepted & integrated all the outside infulences that now make up thai "culture" & have since the first foreigners arrived. "Thai" cooking is heavilty influences by the Chinese & chillis were introduced by the Portuguese, Japanese infulences were popular a while back. Should they all stay away?

And they will blow up another disco in Indonesia this week to reinforce that view.

I don't know about the middle east but if you have info about terrorist activity I suggest you speak to the police.

[Boo]

mark you changed your post whilst I was writing my reply but fortunately I copied & pasted the relevant parts & my answer stands.

I find your comments rude and disrespectful to women in general and older women and Thai women specifically.

YAWN.

[Boo]

In terms of "all Western this or that" in comparison to "all Thais" etc., snip

I was mainly referring to mark45y's declaration that he knew "enough" thai people to speak for all of them. I know a lot of thai people & I see the cutural similarities between them but also see their individuality & know that they have confilicting views of a lot of subjects.

[mark45y]

Old women go braless everywhere and toothless. That is one of the advantages of being old. It is not lost on most people only the young and foolish who try to equate to society in general.

I think I also said topless, as in no top on. Thats nothing about being old. I know of no old ladies in the UK who go topless in the street. Nothing to do with being young or foolish either but please, try to keep the patronising tone to a minimum.

You said no thai people went topless, I gave you an example. Go to the KS muay thai ring & take a look yourself. You said no thai women went braless, I gave you examples. Hardly exceptions.

When you state that you know enough thai people to say that "ALL" Thai people this & that then be ready for examples to disagree. If you say the thai people you know, it gives more credability to your posts. You didn't specify the majority, you spoke for the whole nation. I gave you a few examples to show you are wrong. FYI, I am not a christian & every thai person I know loves western movies, drive western cars, wear western clothes, use western phones & integrate parts of a western lifestyle into their day.

My husband & I watched a travel programme once with some american guy going on about living simply like thai people & staying in a cell at a buddhist retreat. My husband laughed his ass off at this stupid man who thought he could talk with authority on Thai people, he said, what, don't thai people want to drive cars, don't thai people want to live in a nice safe house, don't thai people want money & to educate their children well? It is funny, imagine if a thai person wrote on here that all americans were greedy & thick as they knew enough americans to speak for all? How offensive.

Leave your culture where you found it. Try and not change what you find here. If you enjoy it stay if not go home.

Cultures change. Thai people will lead that change not you or me or any farang. They have accepted & integrated all the outside infulences that now make up thai "culture" & have since the first foreigners arrived. "Thai" cooking is heavilty influences by the Chinese & chillis were introduced by the Portuguese, Japanese infulences were popular a while back. Should they all stay away?

And they will blow up another disco in Indonesia this week to reinforce that view.

I don't know about the middle east but if you have info about terrorist activity I suggest you speak to the police.

It is obvious you have a small amount of knowledge about the Thai culture or the American culture or cars.

The Chinese influence is still the largest foreign influence in Thailand.

Japanese cars are not Western cars they are Asian cars. Japan is in Asia.

I congratulate you that no old ladies go topless in the UK. I will make that my number one priority for visiting there. In fact it might make a good slogan, “See London, none of our old ladies go topless.” Apparently you have a problem with nudity I don’t.

The difference is I don’t discriminate about the age of the nudist.

I have never liked people who discriminate about age or anything else.

I have seen 20,000 Thai people in the last month and that is a conservative estimate. Why on earth should I say the Thai people I know? I don’t know 20,000 Thai people. I go to the mall every day. I walk in the city every day. I go to the park and the waterfall and a lot of places. Out of 20,000 people I have never seen one braless! Except the old people and I would not comment on that because it is off topic.

I left America because most Americans I knew were greedy and thick.

I have mixed emotions on whether the Japanese should stay away. I like the sushi and Karaoke bars but they do push up the price of things. I will get back to you on that.

[kat]

Well, yes, I would hope that anyone would see the individuality of uhm, individuals. I think there are a lot of conflicting views in most societies, but some more than others. I think public nudity and the issue of braless breast is a big one in this society, but there are a lot of exceptions and circumstantial exceptions that may not be evident to outsiders at first and seem like a contradiction, like the topless old ladies.

The exceptions may be exceptions, and it may also be circumstantial, but in my view that does not change the fact that Thai culture looks down on public nudity, and has more than mixed feelings about improperly covered breasts.

[Boo]

oh dear, mark reply when you can do so without making snippy remarks. I gave you relevant examples & explainsations as to why I disagreed with you. You retaliated by making snidey & personal statements about me.

You don't know how much I know about Thai culture but I don't claim to know ALL about it or about ALL thai people. I don't know how much you know but wouldn't dream of saying you you little about it because we disagree. I don't know how long you have lived in Thailand or your experiences. The same as you don't know mine. I'll tell you again, don't patronise me, it is incredibly offensive.

[Boo]

kat, I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying that not ALL thai people have a problem with it.

[mark45y]

mark you changed your post whilst I was writing my reply but fortunately I copied & pasted the relevant parts & my answer stands.

I find your comments rude and disrespectful to women in general and older women and Thai women specifically.

YAWN.

Sorry about that. I tried to edit the post but the time limit had expired. Frankly I am amazed that you could be so disrespectful to older women. I don't think it is a yawn thing. I think it is a fairly Western response to age. I really appreciate the fact that Thais do not feel that way. And it is not an anti woman comment. I think disrespect for age is a sexless thing. I think both young men and women do not respect age in the West and your statement just confirms it.

[kat]

I know Boo - no worries. It's fine with me if you disagree anyway. I am just a habitual discussant about everything.

[Boo]

Frankly I am amazed that you could be so disrespectful to older women

It isn't offensive to older women. She is old & has an old womens body, I don't want to see it when I am doing my shopping. What is so different to what others have posted about farang walking around in speedos & bikinis? Becuase she is Thai & old? Thats hypocritical IMO. If I am at the beach & she was topless it would be a more acceptable place or at least less shocking. But again, it was posted as an example of why your statement of "ALL thai women don't go topless" was misinformed.

[mark45y]

oh dear, mark reply when you can do so without making snippy remarks. I gave you relevant examples & explainsations as to why I disagreed with you. You retaliated by making snidey & personal statements about me.

You don't know how much I know about Thai culture but I don't claim to know ALL about it or about ALL thai people. I don't know how much you know but wouldn't dream of saying you you little about it because we disagree. I don't know how long you have lived in Thailand or your experiences. The same as you don't know mine. I'll tell you again, don't patronise me, it is incredibly offensive.

I didn’t mean to be snippy. I thought I was responding to your opinions. I also did not mean to be snidey whatever that means. I assume it is a derivation of snide. Please accept my apologies. It would be nice to know what you thought was snippy and snidey but maybe that would be asking for too much.

[mark45y]

Frankly I am amazed that you could be so disrespectful to older women

It isn't offensive to older women. She is old & has an old womens body, I don't want to see it when I am doing my shopping. What is so different to what others have posted about farang walking around in speedos & bikinis? Becuase she is Thai & old? Thats hypocritical IMO. If I am at the beach & she was topless it would be a more acceptable place or at least less shocking. But again, it was posted as an example of why your statement of "ALL thai women don't go topless" was misinformed.

What is it about an old womans body that you find offensive when you are shopping? If I am not being snippy and snidey