Culture Clash

[sbk]

You seem to have missed the point of my post which was more of a comment upon the prurience of Mr.Burns, rather than the issue under debate in the thread but never mind.

The prurience of Mr Burns, as you point out, is not the point of this thread. In the future, if you need to comment upon his prurience do so in a PM and not in a public forum.

Lets please try to keep on topic instead of trying to bait other members, shall we?

[too true]

I don't live anywhere near the beach, either here or in my home country, so topless bathing is definitely not the norm for me. But, on a short visit to Koh Phi Phi over the xmas holidays, my husband and I stumbled across a topless European girl. We were sitting in the shade and watched her get up, move her mat, sit down, get up, get her towel, sit down, get up, get her bikini top, sit down.... it went on and on. One of the times she bent over to pick something up I, very quietly and very close to my husband's ear, went "Mooooooooooo...." I couldn't help myself. He about had somtam coming out his nose from laughing so hard. That's our experience with topless farang. The only other ones we saw were tanning themseves boobs down. Forgetting the cultural aspects, the thought of getting a very sensitive part of my body sunburned is enough for me to not ever go topless in this country.

[HarryHerb]

The Gent:

To label all those who oppose topless sunbathing as 'prudes' is rather facile - same as if I were to suggest that your moniker must be ironic as, despite your lavish prose, you seem to display all the cultural sophistication of a British lager lout abroad (which of course I wouldn't dream of doing...)

What you interpret as 'cultural posturing', others would (and do) see as basic respect. Your 'argument' rests on two premises that are flimsy at best: 1) that money should be able to buy you the right to do anything you please 2) strength in numbers (but Mum, look, everyone else is doing it!)

Both of which, to use the labels you clearly favour, add up to "cultural imperialism" and -behold! - how you gloat to see that the bare-breasted army has conquered even the National Park of Ko Samet! Congratulations.

On a more general point, I would like to ask if there are any women here who actually do sunbathe topless? What's your perspective? Why do you do it? I mean, what's the point? (apart from brown boobs ). Surely you will admit to a teeny amount of exhibitionism - in which case, why stop there? Why not go for the brown bum as well, if you are so comfortable with your own body? What's that you say? Worried about what people think? That would be going too far? Oh, a society has to have some standards, eh?

My point: this whole argument is not about nudity causing offence, but simply where to draw the line. In Thailand, it's a little higher than in Europe.

[Soph]

Funny topic. Personally I hate to see people topless sunbathing here. I myself have done it before in Spain etc, where it is everywhere. But here, what with all the beach sellers etc etc, its really not to be done - do people not read their travel guides?

Yesterday, there were a couple of chubbly women with no tops and thongs, lying right in the sea on a narrow part of the beach so all the Thais (including what looked like a School trip) had to walk right past them, it was incredibly embarrasing, so I took the opportunity to tell the two lovely Aussies ladies that it really wasnt the done thing to go topless, and how about they go somewhere less busy, well they had no idea about this, or it seemed any idea about Thai culture at all, but they covered up for the rest of the day.

I felt a bit bad after, but never mind. Anyway you can buy fake tan to cover up your white bits, thats my trick anyway and I think its great

[GU22]

It always amazes me when people spend a lot of time and money travelling to far away places only to complain that it's not like home!

Ladies going topless on the beach is tolerated, in some places, but only because the Thais realise that it is being done by ignorant Farang who don't know any better. It is not acceptance that makes Thais refrain from saying or doing anything, only their innate politeness. To the Thai way of thinking, only the lowest of whores would bare her breasts in public. Indeed, most bargirls on the beach with a customer may wear a brief bikini, but it's not long before they wrap something around themselves to cover up.

Men and women away from the beach should cover up, shorts and T-shirt at least. Tourists and ex-pats alike should remember they are guests in the country, and so respect the feelings of their hosts. If you want to sunbathe topless or even totally nud_e there are plenty of places in Europe and elsewhere that will be happy to accommodate you.

[girlx]

i get offended by girls laying out topless because the thai men come to the conclusion that all farang girls are whores, and i have to contend with this judgement constantly. this is not your culture, you need to live by it's rules, plain and simple. like someone said earlier, you are lucky in thailand they don't say anything to your face (though they definitely do behind) like they would in places like coney island. thailand is sexually pretty liberal, but it remains a very modest country. thai parents would be more offended by their daughter stripping in public than by her having sex with a boyfriend in private. you will never see a thai girl in even a bikini unless she is a whore. have some respect for the thai families slaving away so you can have your carefree holiday. cover up your (usually nasty) tits on the beach, and put on a sarong when you leave the beach.

[the gent]

[. you will never see a thai girl in even a bikini unless she is a whore.

Interesting generalisation. I hope to be seeing one of my wife's chums shortly. She wears a bikini but prostitution, as far as I am aware, does not appear on her CV. I shall make enquiries nevertheless and pass on the reason for doing so.She enjoys the odd falang insight into her culture but on this occasion she may well be a little disappointed.

[phuketsiam]

why do girls go topless anyway, is having brown breasts so importent, and who will see the brown breasts once they get home?

just a thought, please don't flame me

[Boo]

I have to agree with you the gent, I think calling any thai girl who wears a bikini a whore a bit strong

[phuketsiam]

Bambi wears a bikini, belt him Bambi

[girlx]

ok correction- in all my time in thailand on the beaches i have never once seen a thai girl in a bikini who was not a tatooed, bleached haired, straight up ho. with the exception of the models that come to shoot on thong nai pan noi occasionally. it is definitely not the norm for a regular thai woman to wear a bikini on the beach.

[seville]

Hmmm

Girlx your comment was very strong and the comment about tatoos, struck a nerve in me. But I would agree to a point that for the most part if you do see a Thai girl in a bathing suite in the south there is a very high chance that she is a pro. or a lady boy. But I also would like to add that I have more then once had my Thai friends that are women say, I wish I could wear what Farang girls wear.

The topless thing however, I just find rude. But then again the average person coming to the beaches of Thailand isn't trying to explore Thai Culture or make friends with Thai people.

[khall64au]

I am a western woman living on a Thai island. I wear a bikini on the beach. I strip off to my bikini when I enter the water to swim. I have no problem with that! Generally, it is late afternoon because this is the best time for me work-wise to go to the beach and also I don't like sunburn (maybe I've been in Thailand too long?)

I notice that many Thai men do stare at me, but I like to think that it's because I look good in a modest bikini rather than the fact that I am half naked. I must admit to being affected by Thai conservative values. Once back on the beach, I generally cover up with a sarong. I feel comfortable with that - fitting into the neighborhood thang - and also it's a bit breezy at that time of day too. It's a respectable thing to do!

Essentially: When in Rome.............?!

[thaibebop]

Dunno about you guys in Pattaya but.......... I find (as an adult female) that the most beautiful women leave a little to the imagination

I agree. Being a lady with a sense of grace is far more attractive than a tramp wearing technicolor dental floss.

[redrus]

Dunno about you guys in Pattaya but.......... I find (as an adult female) that the most beautiful women leave a little to the imagination

I agree. Being a lady with a sense of grace is far more attractive than a tramp wearing technicolor dental floss.

2 of the more agreeable comments I've heard in a whlie.

redrus

[sbk]

ok correction- in all my time in thailand on the beaches i have never once seen a thai girl in a bikini who was not a tatooed, bleached haired, straight up ho. with the exception of the models that come to shoot on thong nai pan noi occasionally. it is definitely not the norm for a regular thai woman to wear a bikini on the beach.

Calling people whores or ho's isn't very nice and probably would be best avoided. We all try to keep the nasty derogatory comments to a minimum here, its bad enough with some of the Neanderthals that post here, we don't need to be doing it amongst ourselves.

[Uma~~]

ok correction- in all my time in thailand on the beaches i have never once seen a thai girl in a bikini who was not a tatooed, bleached haired, straight up ho. with the exception of the models that come to shoot on thong nai pan noi occasionally. it is definitely not the norm for a regular thai woman to wear a bikini on the beach.

So it's only okay for models to wear bikinis, well that's a relief to know.

Not much of a correction really, is it. Just curious, but the reason Thai's find it offensive, is it a skin/class thing?

Edited January 24, 2006 by Uma~~

[Boon Mee]

Like a previous poster mentioned, you wanna the topless, head over to Spain etc but it always amazes me too that these dumb farangs want to shove their immodesty down another cultures throat. Same, same as when the missionaries spread hate and discontent among the native Hawaiians forcing them to wear clothes. Some people should stay home...

[nephron]

I swim naked occasionally, on a beach in Australia which is generally accepted for that purpose. I don't sunbathe (red, peeling skin is *so* attractive, as is skin cancer).

I wouldn't swim naked or topless or sunbathe in Thailand. It would make the Thai people around uncomfortable.

Edited January 24, 2006 by nephron

[girlx]

"Calling people whores or ho's isn't very nice and probably would be best avoided."

what's wrong with calling a whore a whore? sorry, but not sorry. that is what they are..?!

"So it's only okay for models to wear bikinis"

yeah that is pretty strange, but they don't exactly parade around in them. there are lots of hypocrisies in thailand. nevertheless, their standards are their standards.

[Boo]

I think sbk's meaning was clear girlx.

[LaoPo]

there are lots of hypocrisies in thailand. nevertheless, their standards are their standards.

Right, but name me a country where there is no hypocrisy?

The US has the largest Porno-industry in the world, yet, the Playboy magazine is sold with a 'wrap' around it to 'avoid' obscenety ; dozens of millions of guys go to church every sunday but lock their bedsidetable before they go guess what's in it...

Japan: same-same; last year I saw a documentary in my European country, where Japanese VIRGIN GIRLS were filmed, losing their virginity ; these series are broadcasted to a Private TV-channel all over Japan and they have a lot of subscribers...

I really have no clue how and where they can find virgin girls, prepared to have themselves filmed like that...unbelievable; and if money would be an issue....Japan can hardly be seen as a 3rd Worldcountry.

Hypocrisy is all over the world, not just Thailand.

LaoPo

[thaibebop]

ok correction- in all my time in thailand on the beaches i have never once seen a thai girl in a bikini who was not a tatooed, bleached haired, straight up ho. with the exception of the models that come to shoot on thong nai pan noi occasionally. it is definitely not the norm for a regular thai woman to wear a bikini on the beach.

So it's only okay for models to wear bikinis, well that's a relief to know.

Not much of a correction really, is it. Just curious, but the reason Thai's find it offensive, is it a skin/class thing?

It's a nud_e thing. Same as in western countries, you don't go running around in public with your clothes off.

[the gent]

"Calling people whores or ho's isn't very nice and probably would be best avoided."

what's wrong with calling a whore a whore? sorry, but not sorry. that is what they are..?!

"So it's only okay for models to wear bikinis"

yeah that is pretty strange, but they don't exactly parade around in them. there are lots of hypocrisies in thailand. nevertheless, their standards are their standards.

GirlX, if I may, perhaps I could help you out here.

The trouble with empiricism as a methodology in establishing a proof is that it can never be absolute. Formulating a belief on observation alone is how most arrive at common sense deductions but they are inherently unsafe in absolute terms because no one can observe the same event ad infinitum in a context approximating to mathematical precision measurable in any meaningful way. Thus, in all the time you observed Thai women sporting tattoes, bikinis etc., etc., on a beach you concluded they were whores.That may well have been a valid deduction but it was not, nor could it ever be, a true observation in absolute terms simply because you were not omnipresent nor could you evaluate their function in your absence. The random possibility alone that you could be wrong is in itself sufficient to render your thesis invalid.

However, the majority, whether one likes it or not, indulges in the same sloppy thinking as demonstrated by yourself which is why we have prejudice and its bastard son, discrimination. Quite human really and nothing to be ashamed of but education, if sufficiently inculcated, can raise the bar a little and if nothing else might make us all think a little deeper.

Apropos the interesting Uma's query, base behaviour is ultimately " not good Buddha" hence social stigmatism. Unfortunately, as far as the falang ingenues are concerned, the mortar binding Thai social structure is being eroded constantly and therefore their society is not the same as that described in the Lonely Planet guide, edition circa 1999, which, judging by posts here and elsewhere, TV members may well still have about their person. The young in this country are bursting out of the social constraints that bound their forbears and they will ultimately dictate what is, and what is not, acceptable behaviour.

[zzap]

Ehh, yes, the gent, I think your saying that just because they look like whores, and may well be, not everybody with a tatoo or sporting a bikini is one, and this prejudice based on past observation is going to be challenged even more by the present generation of kids.

I agree with this.

[khall64au]

I saw a HUM DINGER today. Driving through the muslim village at Bang Tao (Phuket), I saw two older European ladies in their sixties wandering the streets in bikinis covered by sarongs flapping in the breeze to reveal their thighs and bikini pants.....

Talk about culture clash. I couldn't help wondering whether thay had been sucked off the French Riviera in a time vortex and transported to Muslimville, Thailand. They did look a little dazed.....

[camerata]

It's amazing how often Thais get labelled as hypocritical in any matter concerning sex. But it's pretty simple, really - doing naughty things is OK in private, but not in public. This ensures no one loses face and everyone avoids conflict, which is very important in Thai culture. So prostitution is not a big deal when it's behind closed doors in a motel or nightclub, but it's uncomfortably obvious when half naked girls sit outside go-go bars with the doors open revealing the bikinied dancers within.

With nudity, I think there's an additional angle. From a Buddhist perspective, all the pleasures of the senses are to be avoided if one is to become enlightened, and sex is the most obvious one. This is why serious Buddhists who take the 8 precepts or become monks (227 precepts) must be celibate and avoid all kinds of entertainment. It's not that sex and entertainment are sinful, but rather that they are hindrances to spiritual attainment.

I doubt a Thai would care if you want to prance around naked in the privacy of your own home, but wearing revealing clothing or even suggestive behaviour is frowned upon because it may give rise to lustful (for want of a better word) thoughts in other people. I think that deep down this is why Thais tend to be conservative about nudity, even though they would probably just think of it as being "against Thai customs."

A couple of years ago I was walking along the beach at Koh Samet with a group of Western educated middle-aged Thais, one of whom was a deputy permanent secretary at a government ministry, and we came across the inevitable frauleins sunbathing topless. The comments I heard were mostly along the lines of "farang don't understand our customs."

Actually, I think they were far too generous. Too many farang tourists just don't care about other cultures and their customs. All they care about is doing what they want. After all, any negative fallout won't affect them when they are back home in two weeks time. Unfortunately, it has an indirect effect on all of us who have made Thailand our home and want to be well thought of and well treated by Thais.

[Old Croc]

To The Gent

Next time, in promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compacted comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency.

Eschew all conglomerations of flatulent garrulity, jejune babblement, and asinine affectations.

Let your extemporaneous descantings and unpremeditated expatiations have intelligibility and veracious vivacity, without rodomontade or thrasonical bombast. Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity ventriloquial verbosity, and vaniloquent vapidity. Shun double-entendres, prurient jocosity, and pestiferous profanity, obscurant or apparent!!

** ** In other words, talk plainly, briefly, naturally, sensibly, truthfully, purely. Keep from slang; don't put on airs; say what you mean; mean what you say. And, don't use big words

[udon]

Articulated superbly, Old Croc.

[the gent]

To The Gent

Next time, in promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compacted comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency.

Eschew all conglomerations of flatulent garrulity, jejune babblement, and asinine affectations.

Let your extemporaneous descantings and unpremeditated expatiations have intelligibility and veracious vivacity, without rodomontade or thrasonical bombast. Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity ventriloquial verbosity, and vaniloquent vapidity. Shun double-entendres, prurient jocosity, and pestiferous profanity, obscurant or apparent!!

** ** In other words, talk plainly, briefly, naturally, sensibly, truthfully, purely. Keep from slang; don't put on airs; say what you mean; mean what you say. And, don't use big words

Aww, c'mon, just a few, please........it's the only chance I get these days.

Your thesaurus ( dat big book wid no pictures dat gives lots of words meaning the same fing) must have taken a battering.

Excellent post and pleasingly euphonious ( sp.?)