Thai Citizenship

[dansat]

The OP took the time to do sime research and learn about the Law to obtain a thai passport.

Very well done to the OP

No matter what people say on here 90% will be jealous of you.

[mjj]

My wife has dual nationality, British through being married to me and taking the test. She uses the British passport in Britain and the Thai one in Thailand regardless of entering or leaving. No problems.

I'm not saving Autan's method doesn't work, but I would have though the passport control system in the uk would just see him entering many times without leaving. I'm only guessing the passport computer system would log whether you are in or out of the country.

[autan]

there,ll be falangs running all over thailand looking for grandperents to adopt them,,lol,

it is clever, and well dont to that man, but youvegot to remember he had to take them to england if im reading it right, and i also read that you must take responsibility for the grandperents, with money ect to take care of them,,

so that in its self could be a mine field, as i understand they never had children apart from one adopted girl who assed away,

so if there are other siblings you couldalso end up supporting them so i would say be very carefull as i no that some will want to try and go down this route,

just my thought, jake

Yes, there is the cost aspect of getting them to the UK and doing the paperwork etc. The interview wasnt exactly a piece of cake either. The Thais are world champions of triplicate and notarised translated copies. Just get all your paperwork in order before make the appointment or you WILL waste your own time.

The arrangement I have made is genuine and I have already taken care of my Grandparents, so that their feet need never touch the ground again. Medical cover with Bupa International, an allowance paid direct to their account to spend as they wish, they can call on me as my parents any time they want. They are now truely my family.

When you are in the interview, if you come across as just looking for Thai Citizenship, you will fail. Your actions must be sincere as mine are. In fact my next step is to get my Yai and Dar into the UK, with leave to remain. I have been assured, this will present little problem.

Good luck everyone and remember what I said about the passport.

Leave the UK (or source country) on your Thai Passport. Enter Thailand on your Thai Passport. Leave on your Thai Passport, but be prepared to show your British Passport to check in when you leave Thailand. Use your Thai Passport all the way back to the UK, when you join the queue for EU citizens when you finally show your British Passport again.

Congrats again. Very clever.

Just a quick question, all the interviewing was at the Thai embassy in London?

What I don't get (and please don't take this the wrong way as I am sure your motives are 200% legit in wanting to support your new parents), what safeguards exist to stop people exploiting this path?

Absolutely none. From the view of the Grandparents/Parents they could be exploited in the fact that once the Expat gets what they want, they simply dissapear never to be heard of again.

From the view of the Expat, somebody on this forum has already stated, what to stop brothers, cousins, aunties etc etc coming out of the wood work, begging for a free meal ticket.

I suppose the safeguard is a little like marriage to a Thai Lady. Don't do it, if it does feel right and where possible, try and use people you know, or at least known by you in a capacity. Then look before you leap. Make sure its what you really want. Afterall Citizenship is a big deal, you are essentially Thai and as you know being an arrogant expat may be forgiven, but if the Thais feel like your taking the (well you know what) out of them, you might find yourself at the mercy of the village bosses kangaroo court.

[autan]

My wife has dual nationality, British through being married to me and taking the test. She uses the British passport in Britain and the Thai one in Thailand regardless of entering or leaving. No problems.

I'm not saving Autan's method doesn't work, but I would have though the passport control system in the uk would just see him entering many times without leaving. I'm only guessing the passport computer system would log whether you are in or out of the country.

This is a very good point and thank you for your post it is worth very careful consideration. I suppose theres nothing stopping me leaving on a British Passport, (putting it away) and using the Thai Passport when entering Thailand and leaving Thailand. The on my return (putting the Thai Passport away) and showing UK Border Clowns the British Passport.

That way as you stated you have an entry on coming and going on all legs of your trip.

[autan]

there,ll be falangs running all over thailand looking for grandperents to adopt them,,lol,

it is clever, and well dont to that man, but youvegot to remember he had to take them to england if im reading it right, and i also read that you must take responsibility for the grandperents, with money ect to take care of them,,

so that in its self could be a mine field, as i understand they never had children apart from one adopted girl who assed away,

so if there are other siblings you couldalso end up supporting them so i would say be very carefull as i no that some will want to try and go down this route,

just my thought, jake

Yes, there is the cost aspect of getting them to the UK and doing the paperwork etc. The interview wasnt exactly a piece of cake either. The Thais are world champions of triplicate and notarised translated copies. Just get all your paperwork in order before make the appointment or you WILL waste your own time.

The arrangement I have made is genuine and I have already taken care of my Grandparents, so that their feet need never touch the ground again. Medical cover with Bupa International, an allowance paid direct to their account to spend as they wish, they can call on me as my parents any time they want. They are now truely my family.

When you are in the interview, if you come across as just looking for Thai Citizenship, you will fail. Your actions must be sincere as mine are. In fact my next step is to get my Yai and Dar into the UK, with leave to remain. I have been assured, this will present little problem.

Good luck everyone and remember what I said about the passport.

Leave the UK (or source country) on your Thai Passport. Enter Thailand on your Thai Passport. Leave on your Thai Passport, but be prepared to show your British Passport to check in when you leave Thailand. Use your Thai Passport all the way back to the UK, when you join the queue for EU citizens when you finally show your British Passport again.

Congrats again. Very clever.

Just a quick question, all the interviewing was at the Thai embassy in London?

What I don't get (and please don't take this the wrong way as I am sure your motives are 200% legit in wanting to support your new parents), what safeguards exist to stop people exploiting this path?

Yes the Royal Thai Embassy in Kensington in London. You go down some pretty awful steps. They ask to see your adoption certificate, which is impossible. In the UK, no-one can be legally adopted over the age of 18 years old. So instead, a legal document, by way of contract is drawn up. This varies from person to person depending on if you have living parents. I do.

So my option was to legally recognise that two people sat next to me be recogised by contract law and civil law as my Grandparents. They also do the same recognising by contract that I am there Grandson. A deed is drawn up certifying this and translated. This means in English Law, you have just been legally adopted. The agreement for sums of money is drawn up seperatly and is considered a private matter. I chose to put it in writing as this was a condition of the adoption agreement.

The interview starts by the Thai members of the party, showing their ID card and passport etc. You then show your British Passport and Driving Licence. There is no ID CARD in the UK.

You show the legally notarised documents showing the recognition, then you wait, while they decide if the agreement is legal, valid and genuine. Once they rule they sit you down and take a photograph of you and fingerprints. In Thailand, there is no such thing as Grandparents adopting a Grandchild, so you are recognised as an adoptive child. A Thai Birth cerificate is issued and you wait about 2-4 weeks for a Passport. You have to visit Thailand to get an ID card. You cannot get a Thai ID card from the Thai Embassy (This is impossible).

In Thailand you visit the boss of your village (in our case). The house book and the boss of the village visit your local municipality and more photos are taken and a blue ID card issued then and there.

I have added a little more detail, without giving any information away about myself or anyone who has helped me, so it may help others without causing problems for myself or others.

It is sounds a lot more complicated that it is, but there you go. Good luck.

[autan]

Note of caution. Do not offer any Coffee/Tea money to Staff at the Royal Thai Embassy in London.

They won't take it and it may harm your chances of success. Just a footnote.

[mania]

This is a very good point and thank you for your post it is worth very careful consideration. I suppose theres nothing stopping me leaving on a British Passport, (putting it away) and using the Thai Passport when entering Thailand and leaving Thailand. The on my return (putting the Thai Passport away) and showing UK Border Clowns the British Passport.

That way as you stated you have an entry on coming and going on all legs of your trip.

It is all pretty straight forward just do as any dual citizen would do.

Basically,

If you have a passport of the country you are entering you would show that passport to enter that country.

You also show the passport you entered each country with as you leave that country.

Of course to enter the UK you will use that passport.

If you enter UK on a Thai passport you would need a visa & you have a limit to your stay.

It does not matter if you say but I have a UK passport in my pocket. It only matter which you present

for official stamped entry.

Same for Thailand, you enter Thailand with your Thai passport or you will need a visa.

In both cases a visa has a limit & you will have to deal with over stay fee's visa renewals etc.

if you did enter with a passport that is "foreign" to the country you entered.

There are many posts of Thai citizens who hold dual citizenship/passports who mistakenly thought

they could enter Thailand on their new 2nd passport only to find when they leave they had over-stayed.

Sounds odd but it all makes sense really.

Congratulations to you again.

Edited September 1, 2012 by mania

[Arkady]

Now I understand that the OP was not adopted as a grandchild in Thailand or in the UK but entered into a civil law agreement to regard the couple as his grandparents (undefinable and therefore unenforceable) and to make certain financial arrangements for them (also effectively unenforceable because he could easily argue in a civil court that they had frustrated the contract by not performing their own undefinable part of it and anyway it would be very complicated and expensive for them to sue him in an English court).

I remain skeptical about how a peculiar legal agreement of this nature could entitle the OP to Thai nationality under the Nationality Act. Even if Thai law recognized this agreement as an adoption by adoptive parents, that would not entitle the OP to Thai nationality, unless he was also born in Thailand. Many Thais have tried unsuccessfully to obtain Thai nationality for alien children not born in Thailand they have adopted as infants.

Edited September 3, 2012 by Arkady

[autan]

Now I understand that the OP was not adopted as a grandchild in Thailand or in the UK but entered into a civil law agreement to regard the couple as his grandparents (undefinable and therefore unenforceable) and to make certain financial arrangements for them (also effectively unenforceable because he could easily argue in a civil court that they had frustrated the contract by not performing their own undefinable part of it and anyway it would be very complicated and expensive for them to sue him in an English court).

I remain skeptical about how a peculiar legal agreement of this nature could entitle the OP to Thai nationality under the Nationality Act. Even if Thai law recognized this agreement as an adoption by adoptive parents, that would not entitle the OP to Thai nationality, unless he was also born in Thailand. Many Thais have tried unsuccessfully to obtain Thai nationality for alien children not born in Thailand they have adopted as infants.

You have made several wrong assumptions and this has led you to an incorrect conclusion.

You are making a case for enforceability of a contract, this isnt under dispute.

As you a contract is a agreement between two parties. In England & Wales you can recognise a person as family even if they are not. A common example of this is where a child recognises a step-parent as a adoptive parent. If they over 18 years old then this can be a formal agreement. You can formally recognise anyone to be of relation to you. As I stated the agreement for me to take care of them in their old age is a seperate agreement, again we are not seeking to test the enforceabilty, it is about the relationship.

The Thai Authorities want to see what your relationship is to the Thai Citizen, for instance if you had two Thai Parents (Birth), then you are entitled to a birth certificate because you decended from Thai Nationals.

However you have a relationship, which has been formally recogonised as being a family relationship and you have also shown you are not just playing the system, then it can be seen that two Thai Nationals have legally adopted a British National as their next of kin and formally as an adoptive child. Adoptive children have the same rights as naturally born children.

The agreement to take care of them in their old age, as well as presenting a family based unit throughout the interview, ensured that a birth certificate, passport, and id card (in time) was bestowed as a thai citizen.

You could argue that if the same set of cicumstances was repeated, but the Thai Authorities believed that you are manipulating the system in order to become a Thai Citizen, then they could refuse you.

You need to present a genuine case and show that the people you call your grandparent/parents etc are in fact in your mind and theirs as real as if you were descended from them.

How many people each day have to convince embassy staff of the UK, France USA or Austrailia, that a marriage or cohabitation is genuine in order for a visa to be granted. Its about how you appear in your interview that counts, not what law you can cite and that it why your skeptism is valid and completely reasonable and rightly so.

[Jayman]

Congratulations on your Thai citizenship Autan.

Your case throws up interesting aspects of Thai law that are new to me. I was unaware that it was possible to be legally adopted as a grandchild. I was under the impression that children adopted by Thai parents (not taking into account grandparents) could only obtain Thai nationality, if there is evidence that they were born in Thailand. (I know someone who obtained his Thai nationality this way after being born stateless in Thailand to a Thai mother and a foreign father, who disappeared, before the law changed in 1992 to allow Thai mothers to transmit their nationality - now he would have been born Thai.) Many Thai couples have adopted foreign born children and tried in vain to obtain Thai citizenship for them. Since there is no provision for this in the Nationality Act, there is nothing that can be done for them legally.

I have a feeling that there is something about your case you are not telling us, e.g. you were born in Thailand and/or have a Thai parent. The adoption by grandparents, as I suggested above, is not a legal process, although there is nothing to people from entering into such an agreement informally. Certainly any undertakings to support the adoptive grandparents would not be legally binding. If you were born in Thailand to alien or stateless parents and were adopted by Thai parents, you might be able to obtain Thai nationality, although I would think this would be difficult for someone who is no longer a minor.

I am curious to how he got a Thai birth cerificate, even though it appears not born in Thailand or of Thai parentage and adopted....adoption certificate maybe, birth certificate cant see how legally

I made an appointment with the Thai Embassy in London, they issued the birth certificate, they needed to speak to my Grandparents, to ensure the adoption was legal, which it is. (At least under English Law). Copies of the adoption were translated into Thai, which made it valid under Thai Law as if they were my legal parents. As legal parents, I am entitled to a birth certificate, passport, id card and to be entered on to house books.

If you do your homework, you will see how it all fits together, quite simple really.

wait one second.. are they now your legal parents or grandparents? Your story is quite interesting but seems to be getting more confusing the more I read. So they adopted you in England and that is how you got around the lack of Thai laws on this? Then once the adoption was legally recognized in England you leveraged that to have it recognized in Thailand? I still don't get the part about being issued a Thai BC when you were neither born in Thailand or to thai parents. Is having Thai grandparents enough to claim a thai birth cert? Seems we are missing some crucial info here.

Are they your adoptive grandparents legally in the UK but someone are being considered your legal parents by the Thais?

Note to self... don't buy an ipad

Edited September 5, 2012 by Jayman

[Jayman]

My wife has dual nationality, British through being married to me and taking the test. She uses the British passport in Britain and the Thai one in Thailand regardless of entering or leaving. No problems.

I'm not saving Autan's method doesn't work, but I would have though the passport control system in the uk would just see him entering many times without leaving. I'm only guessing the passport computer system would log whether you are in or out of the country.

This is a very good point and thank you for your post it is worth very careful consideration. I suppose theres nothing stopping me leaving on a British Passport, (putting it away) and using the Thai Passport when entering Thailand and leaving Thailand. The on my return (putting the Thai Passport away) and showing UK Border Clowns the British Passport.

That way as you stated you have an entry on coming and going on all legs of your trip.

that is exactly what my dual rationality children do. Use US passport when entering exiting US and the thai passport when entering/exiting thailand. There is never any issues and always continuity. The only time there might be an issue is the first time you enter thailand on your thai passport that has never shown you exit thailand to which you just tell them it's a new passport and you left on your UK passport.. this is all very common and not a big deal.

The big deal is that you have manged to get yourself a Thai BC, passport, ID card, and Thai parents (and/or grandparents, that part is still unclear). Congrats on you for that.

[Arkady]

Autan. Whatever the circumstances of your agreement with your adoptive grandparents I am still curious to know how you could have obtained Thai citizenship while the Thai Nationality Act does not permit the granting of Thai nationality to adopted children who are not both born in Thailand and resident in Thailand for 5 years as well as below the age of majority at the time of application.

Since there is no automatic right to Thai nationality for the adopted children of Thai citizens, their adoptive Thai parents or parent have to apply for them to be naturalised under Section 12 bis which waives two of the requirements for naturalisation, namely the requirements to have reached the age of majority and to have a regular occupation. However, the other three requirements for naturalisation remain, i.e. the requirements to have a clean criminal record, to have been resident in Thailand continuously for 5 years and to have knowledge of the Thai language. In addition under Section 12 bis it is necessary for the adoptive children to be below the age of majority and to have been born in Thailand. Also the adoption must have been registered for at least 5 years before the application for naturalisation can take place. Since the age of majority in Thai law is 20, that means that the adoption must take place before the child is 15 years old. See Section 12 bis of the Nationality Act (as amended up to 2008):

"Section 12 bis. According to following situations, the applicant may apply for naturalisation as a Thai for persons without Thai nationality, but having residence in the Kingdom of Thailand:"

and Section 12 bis (3)

"(3) A Thai who adopted a child may apply for Thai naturalisation for the adopted child who is not sui juris in accordance with Thai law (i.e. under the age of 20 - Arkady's note), has completed registration for a legitimate child not less than 5 years ago, and also has evidence proving that the child was born in the Kingdom of Thailand. In this case, such persons shall be exempt from possessing the qualifications under Section 10 (1) and (3)."

As you will see the the five requirements for naturalisation in Section 10 that still apply after the waivers of (1) and (3) are:

"Section 10. An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for naturalization as a Thai:

(2) having good behavior;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalization;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations."

Edited September 22, 2012 by Arkady