Pheu Thai Govts Agricultural Policies A Complete Failure: Democrat Party

[scotbeve]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

[cobbler]

If what you're saying is true.Why was it that up untill now Thai rubber was of the highest quality.From last government we had 180baht per kilo.I dont think that would of happened if the quality was stony and too wet.Chinese arn't stupid

I know of people who own many rai of yang and know a lot as have been doing this for 30 + years.Why cant they get the high price.It's for the polititions mates

Shit we still got another 3 years of this crapy crew running the show.I feel sorry for Thailand

What farming industry will be left not bankrupt when they are out.Not surprising the bro of this one got a military cooooooooooo

Sad thing is the country will still have to pay the IMF money back after they're gone.So not there problem.Just enjoy burning money.,

Not surprising it costs 100s of millions to get into politics.Coz once you're there you make it back ten fold

Edited August 23, 2012 by cobbler

[rubl]

Rubber seems to be a less 'touchy' subject than rice. Just the other day we had a Dem's MP complain

"Chavanond also questioned Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut Saikua over his plan to shore up rubber prices by reducing rubber plantations and exports. "If 100,000 rai of rubber plantation has to be felled, what can rubber farmers live on? It takes seven years for rubber to mature. What would the minister do with the rubber which does not get to export if he wants to reduce exports by 150,000 tonnes?""

http://www.thaivisa....l/#entry5584493

[scotbeve]

I believe in 2010, Thailand was turning the palm oil into Bio fuel. I remember an almost overnight plunge when they decided they could not sustain production.

Suthep was smiling all the way to the bank - that dog excrement....

[rubl]

I believe in 2010, Thailand was turning the palm oil into Bio fuel. I remember an almost overnight plunge when they decided they could not sustain production.

Suthep was smiling all the way to the bank - that dog excrement....

Didn't you forget the "IMHO" here, dear Scott?

[cobbler]

This article is shameful. There is no credible analysis and total misunderstanding of Thailand's agri-products and the forces at play in the export markets currently. Rubber revenue is down because the world market is saturated with last years forward purchases. This is due to a world recession in the motor manufacturing industry which is now in recovery and benefiting from current over supply. So rubber sheet market collapse is not caused by Yingluk's government nor for that matter by Abhisits government either. In respect to Thailand's Rice industry there are systemic problems that will take years to resolve if Thailand is to remain a key player in that industry. Some of the problems are to to the fact that the Rice industry has slowly slid behind the competition due years of neglect and corruption. Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. As it turned out his action was an emotional reaction to an assumed problem that did not materialize. Abhisits government miss managed the palm oil business to the extent that Yingluck's government had to import the urgently needed suppies.. Corruption somewhere in the system left the Nation short of Palm oil and its products which Yinglucks government solved buy importing product and organizing an exceptional bottling organization to get Palm oil back in the shops. Twice during the past three years a similar problem has taken sugar off the supermarket shelves. Yingluck's government is responsible for taking care of the mess that Thailand's internal and export markets are in. However she is not responsible for the cause of these issues. If you want to hang someones name of this hang it on Ahbisit or one of the relevant commissioners. The corruption in Thailand's commodity market is shameful in the sense that the corrupt are traitors to the Thai people. Find the corrupt, confiscate their assets, and imprison them. Then you can build a better Thailand.

"Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. "

I may have missed this particular item. Any link, please

Yes a link would be interesting. Because how I remember it. The Democrat government inherited a huge stock pile from the previous Thaksin government that had to be cleared. But dont let the truth blind you aeeee.

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power. So I'm buggered if I know how they could hold it back.... Moses maybe.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Yep they imported so much palm oil it flooded the market and the price crashed.Great work.Why?? $$$$$$$$$$$ in pocket

[waza]

The rice pledging scheme now has a stockpile of rice so large they can export rice for the bext year without growing any

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-22/thai-rice-haul-seen-winning-votes-as-sales-drop#p2

Edited August 23, 2012 by waza

[rubl]

Palmoil price anyone:

http://www.mongabay....s/palm_oil.html

BTW for this I'm still searching for a link, Yahoo gives a 404:

"Thailand scraps plan to import 40,000 tonnes crude palm oil

Posted on : 25-05-2012"

[Mosha]

Palmoil price anyone:

http://www.mongabay....s/palm_oil.html

BTW for this I'm still searching for a link, Yahoo gives a 404:

"Thailand scraps plan to import 40,000 tonnes crude palm oil

Posted on : 25-05-2012"

Sold yesterday at 5 and 4 Baht/kg

[Mosha]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

.....and from what Jim is saying in the farming area, none of the growers want to sell to the government buyer, cos they are getting ripped off. As I said, we know we have good quality rubber cos our regular buyers tell us when it's good or poor. With the government it's all crap rubber

[scotbeve]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

.....and from what Jim is saying in the farming area, none of the growers want to sell to the government buyer, cos they are getting ripped off. As I said, we know we have good quality rubber cos our regular buyers tell us when it's good or poor. With the government it's all crap rubber

Guess we're saying the same thing in different ways ... Co-ops on the regional scale seem the way to go. Where is that province in the SEast that have been doing this for years and been successful? Back on topic....>>> Historically, farmers have been screwed from everyone on top all the way down to the (small) middle-men with all crops/products. Though I'm staying as optimistic as possible....

[scotbeve]

This article is shameful. There is no credible analysis and total misunderstanding of Thailand's agri-products and the forces at play in the export markets currently. Rubber revenue is down because the world market is saturated with last years forward purchases. This is due to a world recession in the motor manufacturing industry which is now in recovery and benefiting from current over supply. So rubber sheet market collapse is not caused by Yingluk's government nor for that matter by Abhisits government either. In respect to Thailand's Rice industry there are systemic problems that will take years to resolve if Thailand is to remain a key player in that industry. Some of the problems are to to the fact that the Rice industry has slowly slid behind the competition due years of neglect and corruption. Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. As it turned out his action was an emotional reaction to an assumed problem that did not materialize. Abhisits government miss managed the palm oil business to the extent that Yingluck's government had to import the urgently needed suppies.. Corruption somewhere in the system left the Nation short of Palm oil and its products which Yinglucks government solved buy importing product and organizing an exceptional bottling organization to get Palm oil back in the shops. Twice during the past three years a similar problem has taken sugar off the supermarket shelves. Yingluck's government is responsible for taking care of the mess that Thailand's internal and export markets are in. However she is not responsible for the cause of these issues. If you want to hang someones name of this hang it on Ahbisit or one of the relevant commissioners. The corruption in Thailand's commodity market is shameful in the sense that the corrupt are traitors to the Thai people. Find the corrupt, confiscate their assets, and imprison them. Then you can build a better Thailand.

"Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. "

I may have missed this particular item. Any link, please

Yes a link would be interesting. Because how I remember it. The Democrat government inherited a huge stock pile from the previous Thaksin government that had to be cleared. But dont let the truth blind you aeeee.

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power. So I'm buggered if I know how they could hold it back.... Moses maybe.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Yep they imported so much palm oil it flooded the market and the price crashed.Great work.Why?? $$$$$$$$$$$ in pocket

Yeah... Suthep was extremely annoyed at this.... couldn't strangle anymore money out of the "deal"....

[Ricardo]

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power.

"18 months"

Just a minor point, it was two-and a half years, from December-2008 to the start of July-2011.

[thaicbr]

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power.

"18 months"

Just a minor point, it was two-and a half years, from December-2008 to the start of July-2011.

Abhisit dissolved Parliament in early 2011(end January I think). The election was July. So i was a few months out. Sorry

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

[ballpoint]

Guess we're saying the same thing in different ways ... Co-ops on the regional scale seem the way to go. Where is that province in the SEast that have been doing this for years and been successful? Back on topic....>>> Historically, farmers have been screwed from everyone on top all the way down to the (small) middle-men with all crops/products. Though I'm staying as optimistic as possible....

And historically, the Northeast has been represented by the same old political cabals and their proxies, who screwed the locals when they were independent parties, and continue to screw the locals now they are factions of the TRT/PTP. By all means, blame the politicians, but short term greed over long term planning by the electorate falls a close second. if someone robs me of all I have and then lends me the money for the bus fare home should I be gratefull?

[Ricardo]

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power.

"18 months"

Just a minor point, it was two-and a half years, from December-2008 to the start of July-2011.

Abhisit dissolved Parliament in early 2011(end January I think). The election was July. So i was a few months out. Sorry

Sent from my GT-P1010 using Thaivisa Connect App

He'd been talking about it for a year or more, since the televised-negotiations with the Red-Shirts in 2010, but eventually dissolved Parliament 10th May 2011, I believe.

http://www.time.com/...2070600,00.html

Edited August 24, 2012 by Ricardo

[Moruya]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

Interesting life you lead. Always something happening in your village or with your family.

Rubber up north? Is there much there?

[scotbeve]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

Interesting life you lead. Always something happening in your village or with your family.

Rubber up north? Is there much there?

A considerable amount, but not like the south. There are several collection centers in the main "towns" in the north which plan, in the future, to use the Chiang Saen port / bridge as a gateway for exports to China. Tho' the orders have dropped somewhat for Thai/ASEAN rubber.

[Moruya]

Some of the rubber growers on TV, were told 100Baht for rubber sheets. They turned up along with the locals. The government buyer then told them your rubber is crap, 50Baht/kg.

Mosha,

OP said>>> The failure of the Yingluck government caused a drop in the price of rubber sheets from Bt140 per kilogram during the Abhisit government to Bt76 now, Chinnaworn said.

Farmers had been hit by a loss of Bt50 per kg of rubber sheeting, he said, while the country had lost about Bt150 a kg in revenue from rubber sheet exports.

In 3 districts up north, my sister-in-law is the president of the rubber co-op. As of just yesterday, sheets USS (sheets) are 100 baht and cup lump is 65. The quality has to be good though. No more stones or sand mixed with the dried rubber ( a trick used widely in the south) and moisture content is more regulated and priced accordingly. So the quality of rubber is, essentially, being monitored much better. The dems always wanted to control this whereas the farmers want a free market. It's happening and those of you readers with rubber plantations should check your district or provincial rubber co-ops for more information. The Nation, has once again, done it again - no mention of co-ops - piss-poor reporting.

Interesting life you lead. Always something happening in your village or with your family.

Rubber up north? Is there much there?

A considerable amount, but not like the south. There are several collection centers in the main "towns" in the north which plan, in the future, to use the Chiang Saen port / bridge as a gateway for exports to China. Tho' the orders have dropped somewhat for Thai/ASEAN rubber.

How much of the northern rubber was spawned by Thaksin's get richer quicker scheme with the saplings?

[rics21]

Rubber latex prices surge since march. This is nothing we can do about it. The cyclical weakness of the price will follow to the 1st quarter of 2013.

Both the euro zone crisis and the slow down of China's economy has affected the decrease in demand. Fundamentals of trade are not supportive as global production has risen and the demand has fallen due to the above mentioned problems. Rubber output in Thailand has increase throughout the years since 2008 due the price hike.

Its not the government's fault.

But I strong believe that the weakness of Thai politicians towards corruption. The MPs salaries r too low, pocketing from the country is the only reason both the democrats and pheu Thai MPs paid so much for their election campaign.

Sent from my XT910 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited August 24, 2012 by rics21

[scotbeve]

How much of the northern rubber was spawned by Thaksin's get richer quicker scheme with the saplings?

Saplings were very cheap as they were subsidized and the quality of the trees have turned out well. Wasn't it Thaksins govt that led the talks with Malaysia and Indonesia which resulted in a regional cooperative (if you like) and was able to get the rubber prices high? I think you'll find the answer to be "yes" . Abhisit's govt rode on the glory of the high demand factor until a gradual falling out (in a sense) with the 2 countries as far as rubber was concerned. Once again, rubber is in very low demand now / prices deflated. PTP will (most likely) start subsidizing this a larger scale for farmers and middlemen with the 1.5B baht budget. I'll stick with a co-op thanks. Not one govt (in the world) has been successful in "farming". Let the farmers take care of their own....

[indyuk]

The Nation can discover validity of this statement which arises from a quote by the Nation in respect to a statement by Khun Abhiist. We wondered what happens to the said twelve million tons of rice Mr Abhisit spoke of when the internal distribution of rice fell into disarray. At the time it was felt that the falure of national distribution (of Rice) was in part due to corruption at the warehousing system across Thailand.The twelve million tons of rice was not of a single harvest but of the cumulative reserve product of more than one season.

[Thai at Heart]

...Agriculture Minister Pornsak Charoenprasert signed an MOU with the Chinese government to sell rubber sheets to Beijing at the price of Bt105.

...In the second blunder, Deputy Agriculture Minister Natthawut Saikua signed a contract to sell rubber to China at a government-to-government price...

SO.... we have price fixing but 15 baht below market and causing a lowering of market prices.

And well below the price the government agreed to subsidize it.

So who pays for the make up?

Secondly Natthawut gets played big time but the envoys from China.

Fool, they would have accepted a fluctuating market purchase deal.

Were you THAT desperate to land something big?

They are Chinese they play hardball with newbies too

Hello boys, the idea of selling a product is to MAKE MONEY,

not subsidize it using other peoples money and shoot the countries foot on ever kilo sold.

Well this is a massive story in and of itself. How the hell us this allowed to happen with zero public disclosure and no debate. They can't allow NASA to fly a plane but someone can really do this?

[Thai at Heart]

This article is shameful. There is no credible analysis and total misunderstanding of Thailand's agri-products and the forces at play in the export markets currently. Rubber revenue is down because the world market is saturated with last years forward purchases. This is due to a world recession in the motor manufacturing industry which is now in recovery and benefiting from current over supply. So rubber sheet market collapse is not caused by Yingluk's government nor for that matter by Abhisits government either. In respect to Thailand's Rice industry there are systemic problems that will take years to resolve if Thailand is to remain a key player in that industry. Some of the problems are to to the fact that the Rice industry has slowly slid behind the competition due years of neglect and corruption. Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. As it turned out his action was an emotional reaction to an assumed problem that did not materialize. Abhisits government miss managed the palm oil business to the extent that Yingluck's government had to import the urgently needed suppies.. Corruption somewhere in the system left the Nation short of Palm oil and its products which Yinglucks government solved buy importing product and organizing an exceptional bottling organization to get Palm oil back in the shops. Twice during the past three years a similar problem has taken sugar off the supermarket shelves. Yingluck's government is responsible for taking care of the mess that Thailand's internal and export markets are in. However she is not responsible for the cause of these issues. If you want to hang someones name of this hang it on Ahbisit or one of the relevant commissioners. The corruption in Thailand's commodity market is shameful in the sense that the corrupt are traitors to the Thai people. Find the corrupt, confiscate their assets, and imprison them. Then you can build a better Thailand.

"Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people. "

I may have missed this particular item. Any link, please

Yes a link would be interesting. Because how I remember it. The Democrat government inherited a huge stock pile from the previous Thaksin government that had to be cleared. But dont let the truth blind you aeeee.

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power. So I'm buggered if I know how they could hold it back.... Moses maybe.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Please correct me if i am wrong, total Thai crop is 25+- mn tonnes, exports 7 to 9 mn tonnes

[rubl]

Yes a link would be interesting. Because how I remember it. The Democrat government inherited a huge stock pile from the previous Thaksin government that had to be cleared. But dont let the truth blind you aeeee.

As far as I'm aware Thailand could not even grow 12 million tons of rice in the 18 months the Dems were in power. So I'm buggered if I know how they could hold it back.... Moses maybe.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Please correct me if i am wrong, total Thai crop is 25+- mn tonnes, exports 7 to 9 mn tonnes

In 2010 Thailand produced about 30+ million tons. It may have space to store 30Mt.

http://www.bloomberg...tocks-grow.html

http://gantdaily.com...idates-surplus/

Still that doesn't give any credit to member Indyuk's claim of "Further Abhisit's government held back 12 million of tons of Rice from the markets with a view to protecting adequate supplies of rice for the people"

[Thaddeus]

How much of the northern rubber was spawned by Thaksin's get richer quicker scheme with the saplings?

Saplings were very cheap as they were subsidized and the quality of the trees have turned out well.

It was Newins idea in the first place, and no, many of the saplings didn't turn out well.

Do you think the Chidchobs and Shins parted company for musical differences?

[scotbeve]

How much of the northern rubber was spawned by Thaksin's get richer quicker scheme with the saplings?

Saplings were very cheap as they were subsidized and the quality of the trees have turned out well.

It was Newins idea in the first place, and no, many of the saplings didn't turn out well. Do you think the Chidchobs and Shins parted company for musical differences?

Ol' clam mouth and Thaksin departed on a very sour note... something to do with this and some money as a present not forthcoming as

which he had ASKED (demanded) for.... Hmmmm... sorta like Sodhi and Thaksin over a very large loan..... Our saplings have turned out very well....

[cobbler]

TRy not to send yourself mad guys.

Only difference between Thailand and Western countries is.Western countries pass a law and call it legal.So they can proudly say to the rest of the world''no corruption here in our country''

Asian countries just do what they want,legal or not.If you worry too much you'll go mad.

[cobbler]

EG a woman marries a man in the west.Man owns everything.2 or three years later man's living on the street.Woman has house ,car and getting paid to live in the house By the X.Best part is it's legal.No corruption.

I tell Thai men this every time Thai men tell me what a great country Australia is.They don't get it.So I explain.Then they look at me like I'm some sort of fagot,and say while laughing.''Never happen here.

I ask you now.Even with all it's faults and corruption.''Which country is more honest.?Which country is better for it's men to be a citizen of.?

I know I would rather my son to be a citizen and a have ,in a country of haves and have nots ,than a sepperated father in a fabian society .If you don't know the meaning of the word fabian.Google it.Basically it's what you left to come to Thailand

[OzMick]

EG a woman marries a man in the west.Man owns everything.2 or three years later man's living on the street.Woman has house ,car and getting paid to live in the house By the X.Best part is it's legal.No corruption.

I tell Thai men this every time Thai men tell me what a great country Australia is.They don't get it.So I explain.Then they look at me like I'm some sort of fagot,and say while laughing.''Never happen here.

I ask you now.Even with all it's faults and corruption.''Which country is more honest.?Which country is better for it's men to be a citizen of.?

I know I would rather my son to be a citizen and a have ,in a country of haves and have nots ,than a sepperated father in a fabian society .If you don't know the meaning of the word fabian.Google it.Basically it's what you left to come to Thailand

Which country would you prefer your daughter to be citizen? Mysogenia?